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Beholder vs Jotaro Kujo

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Yes, it definitely will give him a head start. This is Central Park according to SBA. There is lots of opportunities for him to evade Beholder, and even though he's extremely intelligent to a high degree, there's still a lot of split-second hesitation "did he go left or right?" moments that would become possible for Jotaro. Imagine him entering a shopping mall. Holy shit.

The very second Jotaro turns a corner, he is free from the anti-magic cone. Star Platinum stops time, he goes back around the corner and time forcefully resumes. He now knows he needs to lose his line of sight if he wants to use Star Platinum, and attack him from behind as well. He keeps the chase up and waits till this moment happens again, which it inevitably will.

Really, Jotaro's win condition for this fight is: make him blink or evade his line of sight.

If he achieves either of these two things it quickly escalates into a victory for himself.

Beholder's win condition is: catch up to Jotaro and eat him (speed is equal)

I hope this makes it very clear how easy it is for Jotaro to win.
 
ProfessorLord said:
Yes, it definitely will give him a head start. This is Central Park according to SBA. There is lots of opportunities for him to evade Beholder, and even though he's extremely intelligent to a high degree, there's still a lot of split-second hesitation "did he go left or right?" moments that would become possible for Jotaro. Imagine him entering a shopping mall. Holy shit.
Click to expand...
...But it sees in all directions.

Also, last comment before I'm gone for a while, but if people are going to argue for Jotaro just running, what stops the Beholder from simultaneously flying above Star Platinum's most effective range while still being in range for its eye attacks?
 
Enjoy the movie, Azzy.

I'll be back later, the arguments are going around in circles and are based on complete assumptions. If someone wants to vote, feel free. I'll add in current arguments rn, in brief, for the sake of people coming in. Unless the voting gets to the point where the outcome is uncertain, grace period is still ticking down.

Currently, Beholder is ahead under the argument that, at 30ft, his anti-magic cone automatically negates any supernatural abilities of his foe. He can then choose one of many routes to take, and due to a laughable intelligence advantage, Beholder will likely choose the most viable victory route, meaning eating Jotaro (as in, almost impossible to choose the wrong one).

With speed equalized, Jotaro could feasibly run away after realizing none of his powers are working, making it impossible for Beholder to eat him. While he could not feasibly outrun the cone at a range of 150ft, he could technically dodge behind objects and manage to manifest Star Platinum. This is so far the only viable outcome of victory without one of the characters acting out of character.
 
...Azzy actually has a decent point I hadn't thought about. Beholder can fly. It is always flying. Jotaro doesn't have a lot of range, and doesn't even have the marbles or whatever he uses (not standard equipment).

Also, yes, Beholder can see in all directions due to the mass amounts of eyes.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Is that going to give him enough of a head start, though? Because he basically has several seconds at absolute maximum to realize nothing is happening and decide to run in the opposite direction. He can and obviously will look over his shoulder, but he's not going to be doing it constantly so that he can actually see where he's going.

Star Platinum can manifest on its own yes, but I'm not sure this is going to give it enough time to properly react. The Beholder would likely be attempting to shut off the cone and hit Jotaro simultaneously.

Of course, I'm assuming it may attempt to deactivate the cone, but I don't even know if that's a certainty, as it could always fire its beams around the outside of it should Jotaro attempt to escape. I don't know how likely him constantly running in a straight line is, and even then, flat out running as soon as possible isn't going to consistently be his style, here.

(Regardless, I have to step out a bit for a movie, so excuse me if I don't comment, for a while.)
Click to expand...
Jotaro is a fairly quick thinker; I imagine he'll start running once he realizes that he'll need to stall for time if he wants to live. I believe Star Platinum could certainly react fast enough, considering it managed to stop him from shooting himself once. If the Beholder lowers that cone to attack, Star Platinum is likely going to emerge and stop time. If the Beholder really is as paranoid and prepared as it is, then it's likely going to try and kill Jotaro quick, in case he's running because of some plan of his. He might not run in a perfectly straight line, but he's skilled enough at utilizing his environment to keep his distance for as long as he'll have to.

Besides that, I'd still like proof that antimagic cone goes beyond nulling magic, as the link that mentioned it being able to affect spirits/incorporeal entities leaves out the important fact that in DnD, spirits are inherently magical.

(And that's all right, seeya when you get back.)
 
ProfessorLord said:
Yes, it definitely will give him a head start. This is Central Park according to SBA. There is lots of opportunities for him to evade Beholder, and even though he's extremely intelligent to a high degree, there's still a lot of split-second hesitation "did he go left or right?" moments that would become possible for Jotaro. Imagine him entering a shopping mall. Holy shit.

The very second Jotaro turns a corner, he is free from the anti-magic cone. Star Platinum stops time, he goes back around the corner and time forcefully resumes. He now knows he needs to lose his line of sight if he wants to use Star Platinum, and attack him from behind as well. He keeps the chase up and waits till this moment happens again, which it inevitably will.

Really, Jotaro's win condition for this fight is: make him blink or evade his line of sight.

If he achieves either of these two things it quickly escalates into a victory for himself.

Beholder's win condition is: catch up to Jotaro and eat him (speed is equal)

I hope this makes it very clear how easy it is for Jotaro to win.
Click to expand...
And the Beholder won't notice Jotaro teleporting from around the corner back and forth?

And we're assuming that the Beholder won't try and stop him from getting out of his AMC by using his eye rays right outside the radius? Or disintegrate the corner?
 
He can only see in all directions around himself, not all directions around every corner. That's kind of what I meant.

Star Platinum can do what's referred to in JoJo as a "stand leap". Basically, he can interact with the enviornment on behalf of Jotaro, while also drawing Jotaro to him. (For example, Star Platinum can grab a ledge for Jotaro, and then mutually put Jotaro upwards until he himself can grab the ledge. This has been seen against his fight with Yellow Temperance.) The same is held true when jumping. Jotaro and Star Platinum jump said distance and KO Beholder.
 
The Beholder's flight doesn't really matter if it still can't hit its target. It's not going to bite Jotaro from the air, and if it tries to use its beams, he timestops and avoids it. Star Platinum can always just find some rocks on the ground, or pick up a tree or something and launch it at the Beholder. Star Platinum does have class K LS, it can pick up some pretty heavy stuff to throw at the thing.

EDIT: And please, can someone show me definitive proof that the antimagic field works on more than just standard DnD magic?
 
The proof is up above. It was shown that psionics (as in, mind powers, not magic at all) are indeed affected.

Beholder can viably fly and hit Jotaro from range. All of our assumptions have been that Beholder remains close enough to the ground to be hit.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
The proof is up above. It was shown that psionics (as in, mind powers, not magic at all) are indeed affected.
Beholder can viably fly and hit Jotaro from range. All of our assumptions have been that Beholder remains close enough to the ground to be hit.
Click to expand...
Fine, if that is what the Beholder would decide is the best choice of action, I am in agreement.

Unfortunately, Jotaro and Star Platinum jump into range and proceed to ORA ORA ORA him to death. GG
 
Beholder is laughably smarter than Jotaro. Like immensely so. Beholder has a large range advantage. With this range, he can insta-kill Jotaro through several means. He can also negate Jotaro's powers.

Your votes are valid, but so are everyone else's. Currently only one of you have stated you vote for Jotaro, as opposed to 9 people on the side of Beholder.

I'll be back in a few hours, the grace period ends at 1 AM. If the voting isn't within 3 of Beholder, then the Grace Period ends and the battle is won regardless. Just giving a heads up.
 
So let me review the scenario. The Beholder power nulls SP and Jotaro runs away. If Jotaro gets behind a tree or out of view he can summon Star Platinum again. Beholders need to turn off power null in order to use other lasers. The Beholder can fly.

Is there anything that incorrect or that I'm missing here?
 
IIRC, Psionics and Magic are treated as the same thing in DnD. The default rules are those of Psionic-Magic Transparency, so both can be affected in the same way. I fail to see how that implies that it would effect a Stand.

EDIT: Laughably smarter doesn't mean much against time-stop, I'm afraid. The Beholder has no way to predict it, and there really isn't much that it can do about it since unless it manages to get up close and personal, it has to stop nulling Star Platinum to attack.
 
@Dragon A lot, really. Physically, Jotaro is a better fighter but in a fight without Star Platinum, he loses due to AP advantage. Beholder has huge range advantage via his rays, most of which can instant-win due to incapacitating long enough to kill Jotaro (Petrification, Sleep, Charm, etc).

Beholder's intelligence makes it extremely likely that he will be able to counter Jotaro's moves- for a more well-known example, I'd compare it to Deathstroke's affinity for accurately guessing his enemy's moves. Beholder's intelligence is that of a vastly superhuman level. It is able to take on 4 8-Bs at once, and often come out ahead.
 
@Mr. Bambu, Hahahahah, so you're just blatantly ignoring arguments now?

Jotaro has the range advantage with thrown objects, by far. The only range Beholder has is with his various rays and beams, which he is unable to use if he is using his anti-magic cone. He can only negate Jotaro's powers at the cost of negating his own.

Furthermore the minute he escapes Beholder's line of sight, he regains all of his powers. Beholder needs to outspeed Jotaro, which isn't possible with speed equalized. Jotaro sprints across Central Park until he gets out of his sight, then stops time and stomps Beholder.

The win condition for Beholder is "must catch up to him and eat" and the win condition for Jotaro is "lose his line of sight". There is very little chance that Beholder manages to keep up with Jotaro and never have him leave his line of sight, it's just not feasible. Therefore Jotaro should win with little difficulty.
 
Time, what makes you think Psionics = Magic? It isn't. It is mental abilities specific to the user. However, as a supernatural effect, it is negated, as the ability specifically states that supernatural effects are negated.
 
I thought a minute ago you were saying that Beholder flies above Jotaro and uses his death ray, out of range of Star Platinum? He suddenly won't do it anymore because I just proved that Jotaro can jump that high, huh?
 
Also, the thought that the Beholder would destroy Jotaro in close combat is honestly laughable. It's got a single mouth. No arms, no legs, just a mouth. If Jotaro can dodge getting bitten, he could get out of sight and summon Star Platinum, and again the Beholder is dead. I don't see how it can win unless Jotaro suddenly becomes an idiot who can't dodge fairly simple attacks and loses all of his creativity.
 
What argument did I ignore? The jumping thing? That isn't flight. Beholder can stay up there. I don't mean offense, but it just isn't flying.

The win condition isn't catching up. It is killing Jotaro. Jotaro must feasibly escape the Beholder, which is unlikely due to reasons listed above. If he does, Beholder could counter by escaping range and firing on him from above. He doesn't have range for throwing stones, so no, that much is out.

The only way Jotaro wins is by escaping Beholder AND outsmarting him AND by beating him enough within time stop to kill him. Which is EXTREMELY unlikely. Beholder wins. I'm not saying this to belittle one character or to wank another, it is simply the most objective answer I can see. You have repeatedly bent word of god statements to try to make it seem like Beholder is far weaker than it is.

Keep in mind, Beholder is hailed as one of the greatest D&D villains/monsters for a reaso. It is one of few monsters that have survived every edition to date.

Your points have been exhausted and repeated and beaten to death. I'm tired of going in circles whilst staying objective. Unless you have actually new points to bring up, then I fail to see why we're dancing this dance.

I'll keep track of votes, but unless a new viable point comes up for me to analyze, I'm done responding.
 
ProfessorLord said:
@Mr. Bambu, Hahahahah, so you're just blatantly ignoring arguments now?
Jotaro has the range advantage with thrown objects, by far. The only range Beholder has is with his various rays and beams, which he is unable to use if he is using his anti-magic cone. He can only negate Jotaro's powers at the cost of negating his own.

Furthermore the minute he escapes Beholder's line of sight, he regains all of his powers. Beholder needs to outspeed Jotaro, which isn't possible with speed equalized. Jotaro sprints across Central Park until he gets out of his sight, then stops time and stomps Beholder.

The win condition for Beholder is "must catch up to him and eat" and the win condition for Jotaro is "lose his line of sight". There is very little chance that Beholder manages to keep up with Jotaro and never have him leave his line of sight, it's just not feasible. Therefore Jotaro should win with little difficulty.
Click to expand...
This may just be your wording but you seem to be under the misconception that he can't use his eye beams at all if he has the AMC up. This isn't true. He can still use them, he just can't use them on anything inside the cone. So what's stopping the Beholder from disintegrating and destroying everything that Jotaro might hide behind? The Beholder doesn't care about property damage.

You are also assuming the Beholder won't use his Telekinesis Ray to grab something outside the AMC and fling it with enough force to hit Jotaro while he's inside the cone.
 
Wrong. Jotaro's win condition isn't outsmarting Beholder, it's just escaping his line of sight. Once he does so he gains Star Platinum back and can absolutely destroy him in stopped time. Escaping his line of sight is very likely in an enviornment such as Central Park. I will be amazed if Beholder keeps up for more than a minute.

You already said "Beholder will just stay in air and shoot Jotaro" as if Jotaro couldn't stop time jump up and beat the shit out of him. Of course you abandoned this argument once I pointed it out.

Keep in mind, Jotaro is hailed as one of the greatest JoJo protagonists for a reason. The ability to stop time, move at MFTL speeds and punch at 8-B is nothing to be toyed with. He's one of the greatest 8-B characters.
 
Foggysniper said:
This may just be your wording but you seem to be under the misconception that he can't use his eye beams at all if he has the AMC up. This isn't true. He can still use them, he just can't use them on anything inside the cone. So what's stopping the Beholder from disintegrating and destroying everything that Jotaro might hide behind? The Beholder doesn't care about property damage.

You are also assuming the Beholder won't use his Telekinesis Ray to grab something outside the AMC and fling it with enough force to hit Jotaro while he's inside the cone.
Click to expand...
Because he can't disintegrate giant ass buildings without having it collapse and create even more debris for Jotaro to evade behind.

Also lmao at telekinesis ray, I don't think he can fling anything at Jotaro to stop him.He's recieved holes the side of a closed fist and he hasn't so much as flinched.
 
Okay. You've brought up a point. Cover. Which Foggy just described. Beholder can pretty casually destroy any cover offered.

And yes, he could jump. But he couldn't stay there. He;;d get a hit in and his time stop lasts five seconds. Meaning in those five seconds he needs to run out, get to Beholder, and nail that attack before the Beholder's time stop is up, at which point, if he jumps, he is rendered powerless (eye) and eaten.

He is a powerful character. That does not mean he is intrinsically more powerful than other 8-Bs. Beholder is superior to groups of people casting 8-B because he outsmarts them, outmaneuvers them, and, normally, enslaves one if he can (and if they are near his lair). Or he eats them.

Jotaro being "great" means nothing in this fight. Beholder simply has more ways to win and more ways to achieve it.

Back into my mental retreat I go.
 
It doesn't matter if the Beholder can destroy cover if Jotaro timestops once he's under it. Once Jotaro gets off timestop, he just needs to get out of sight to give him a moment to think, and then stop time again and proceed to beat the Beholder to the ground.

This is starting to make me wonder how Joseph vs Beholder would go. Though he'd probably just kill the thing via Hamon.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Okay. You've brought up a point. Cover. Which Foggy just described. Beholder can pretty casually destroy any cover offered.
And yes, he could jump. But he couldn't stay there. He;;d get a hit in and his time stop lasts five seconds. Meaning in those five seconds he needs to run out, get to Beholder, and nail that attack before the Beholder's time stop is up, at which point, if he jumps, he is rendered powerless (eye) and eaten.

He is a powerful character. That does not mean he is intrinsically more powerful than other 8-Bs. Beholder is superior to groups of people casting 8-B because he outsmarts them, outmaneuvers them, and, normally, enslaves one if he can (and if they are near his lair). Or he eats them.

Jotaro being "great" means nothing in this fight. Beholder simply has more ways to win and more ways to achieve it.

Back into my mental retreat I go.
Click to expand...
Beholder can casually destroy small cover offered, but he is unable to destroy any large piece of coverage such as a building, which Jotaro could hide behind if he cut around any corner. Sure he can physically disintegrate it, but then the entire building collpases on Beholder. Nice, he just created more cover for Jotaro.

That's not true, he can get hundreds of punches in just by jumping to his level, this is MFTL Star Platinum. (speed equalized scales upwards, not downwards.) He can literally jump on Beholder in stopped time, this takes two seconds. From there he can dish out a fatal ORAORAORA. Even if it wasn't enough to get through his eyelid, Star Platinum has quickly fashioned makeshift weapons before, which would scale with his strength. Regardless, Beholder's strategy of closing his eye, flying above Jotaro and shooting rays isn't viable.

I made that point just to show how ridiculous your tangent was. Intelligence isn't really a big factor in this fight, it just means Jotaro won't be able to get one over on Beholder with bluffing or other deception. There's nothing much Beholder's intelligence can do except come up with a game strategy, but when there is no viable winning strategy you're kind of ******.

Can you now share a viable way for Beholder to win against Jotaro? We've already debunked this anti-magic cone + chase him down and eat him argument. We've also debunked the "shoot him with a ray as fast as possible" argument. I'm just not seeing the win path for Beholder.
 
Speed equalization means they are both of the same speed. Typically, this means Human speed. There is no MFTL+ here. The rest of your points are immaterial because it is just reiterating old info we've already made points against, aside from buildings in Central Park because... its a park. Intelligence is a huge factor when it is to such a degree that the Beholder has prepared for every situation, every hax (most of Jotaro's hax exist to some degree within D&D, even Time Stop via a stasis spell, which stops time for one target).

We have. We have explained to death. You just don't care, so there's no point. I'm sorry, but I'm tired and I just don't have the energy to have a neverending "lolno" fest.
 
No, I've already adressed this in the past. Speed equalization means you equalize the speed between both opponents, not make them both human speed. If Bob is MFTL and Joe is Supersonic, both of them become MFTL. But this doesn't even matter, point remains Jotaro can leap ontop of Beholder and crush him if he dares to use that strategy.

This is central park , my friend. It's in New York City. Do you understand what this means? Buildings are only a jog away, which is light work for someone like Jotaro. There is no counter-strategy to running around a building corner and stopping time. He's not fast enough to implement one that makes sense, they're both the same speed.

You keep on reiterating "oh he has a plan for that!" when I bring up anything about Jotaro, but you fail to mention what said plan is. We cannot assume he has a plan, you have to tell me a plan he could theoretically think up if in said situation and how it is relevant in countering anything about Jotaro. This is why I am annoyed you guys keep bringing up his intelligence, because you haven't demonstrated how it will be useful.

You refuse to explain a viable way for Beholder to win against Jotaro. We've debunked the anti-magic cone + chase him down and eat him strategy of Beholder, and we've debunked the "shoot him with a ray as fast as possible" argument, we've debunked the "close your eye and fly above him out of his range and shoot him" argument. As of now there is no win path for Beholder. "FRA" is no longer a valid argument for voting.
 
Just for posterity's sake and to say that I did, in fact, try to portray it as objectively as possible.

  • Beholder can win via any single one of his rays hitting Jotaro at any point. His rays include instant death, stealing the life energy of the target, disintegration, charm (turns the opponent into a follower of the user for a set amount of time, allowing beholder to take him out), sleep (Same reason as Charm), etc etc. Basically, if the Beholder gets any mundane ray off, he wins. The exception is Telekinesis, but this can be used in conjunction with the others to offer a kill.
  • Beholder can and probably will deduce that Jotaro is blocked from using his abilities upon seeing his reaction. Knowing this, Beholder can and will keep him within the Anti-Magic ray to ensure victory. At this point, he will probably eat Jotaro, overpowering him due to the fact that Jotaro is merely 9-B without Star Platinum. Note that Beholder can use rays during this so long as they do not extend into the cone of antimagic, as they are cancelled only within the ray. Based on that, Beholder can feasibly attack things outside the cone, or telekinetically toss things with 8-B force into Jotaro, essentially wearing him down.
  • Should Jotaro escape the cone, Beholder can feasibly attack Jotaro, as to do this, he must get outside of the cone (as in, more than 150 feet away). Jotaro must then pass that distance in 5 seconds while time is not stopped for him, and while, yes, he could feasibly get to the Beholder in this time (even with jumping, assuming the Beholder is likely flying out of reach), the Beholder can then destroy Jotaro with one attack.
Jotaro has a much less likely chance to win, as to even have a chance of winning, he must evade the Beholder (which is nearly impossible due to careful calculation on the Beholder's part and his omnidirectional sight), manage to escape his cone, and then return to him with five seconds and manage to kill him in that time. Note that, as stated, Beholders do have experience in a verse with powers similar to Stands (namely, intangible beings of supernatural ability). Jotaro has never seen anything like a Beholder.

I just see many more possibilities for Beholder to win. I mean no offense to the character you clearly like, I'm just being objective.
 
- Beholder can win via any single one of his rays hitting Jotaro at any point. His rays include instant death, stealing the life energy of the target, disintegration, charm (turns the opponent into a follower of the user for a set amount of time, allowing beholder to take him out), sleep (Same reason as Charm), etc etc. Basically, if the Beholder gets any mundane ray off, he wins. The exception is Telekinesis, but this can be used in conjunction with the others to offer a kill.

Yes but this point is largely irrelevant. It does not take into consideration the fact that Jotaro can stop time before any of the rays can approach him, let alone touch him. If Jotaro is allowed to enter stopped time, this fight very quickly becomes over. Star Platinum can destroy Beholder's eye and probably just KO him outright within 5 seconds.

- Beholder can and probably will deduce that Jotaro is blocked from using his abilities upon seeing his reaction. Knowing this, Beholder can and will keep him within the Anti-Magic ray to ensure victory. At this point, he will probably eat Jotaro, overpowering him due to the fact that Jotaro is merely 9-B without Star Platinum. Note that Beholder can use rays during this so long as they do not extend into the cone of antimagic, as they are cancelled only within the ray. Based on that, Beholder can feasibly attack things outside the cone, or telekinetically toss things with 8-B force into Jotaro, essentially wearing him down.

Surprisingly, this makes the most sense but it is still flawed. I agree that Beholder will realize he can block Jotaro's abilities with the anti-magic cone, I have no problems with this. But once you think that Beholder will actively chase and eat Jotaro...? This is where it starts to become silly. Jotaro has actively escaped and ran away from stand users with abilities he could not understand nor counter . Jotaro put as much distance as possible between him and his opponent so he could better analyze and figure out a strategy. It stands to reason Jotaro will run away from Beholder the minute he realizes he has an ability rendering Star Platinum useless, as he's literally done it before.

Running away from the giant floating monster, Jotaro will take any path he can to escape him. This would likely include train stations, shopping malls and street corners. There are lots of corners in these areas that Beholder cannot simply disintegrate without causing faults to structural integrity and bringing down walls and large pieces of debris onto himself. Once this happens, Jotaro is now out of his line of sight. Star Platinum's self -preservatio kicks in and stops time on Jotaro's behalf before Beholder can use any further ability. Just like I described before, Jotaro and Star Platinum are basically at the home-stretch, he approaches Beholder and gives him an ORAORAORA without him being able to do a thing.

The telekinesis beam is a strategy, but not one I would consider viable. Jotaro has taken dozens of MFTL 8-B punches without budging an inch, only having a haymaker finally sending him flying . He's even had 8-B gasoline bullets projected towards him and he barely flinches . Therefore objects thrown at him would likely only bother Jotaro at best, and that's assuming he doesn't actively work on evading it. He is clearly an athlete and has the reaction speed to back it up.

- Should Jotaro escape the cone, Beholder can feasibly attack Jotaro, as to do this, he must get outside of the cone (as in, more than 150 feet away). Jotaro must then pass that distance in 5 seconds while time is not stopped for him, and while, yes, he could feasibly get to the Beholder in this time (even with jumping, assuming the Beholder is likely flying out of reach), the Beholder can then destroy Jotaro with one attack.

I don't think Jotaro will get more than 150 feet away with speed equalized. I do believe he is able to get out of his line of sight and behind an object of some sort such as a building, completely nullifying the anti-magic cone since he's no longer within the cone. With this strategy, he'd probably only be 20ft away at most. He can stop time and instantly win.

You see more possibilities for him to win, but you ignore how Jotaro would react and counter said possibilities. None of those strategies you just told me were viable ways to win against Jotaro. I'm being 100% objective.
 
I don't ignore them. I am just of the inclination that the Beholder counters more thoroughly, intelligently, and aptly. Most of your points revolve around stopping time, which is a good, even a GREAT hax. But not enough to just ignore the abilities of the Beholder.

I hope you understand my points. I'll be back in the morning when I believe this runs out on its Grace Period. Cheers, and have a nice night~
 
As of now, Beholder has no winning strategy. Jotaro's counter-strategy wins against what you have told me the Beholder would do so far, and you have not debunked what I have just said about Jotaro. Most of the previous posts were based on the assumption that he would disable Star Platinum and proceed to eat Jotaro, which I have now debunked as OOC on Jotaro's part, he would never stand there and let himself get eaten.

I will have to re-count the votes that vote specifically for this reasoning.

I believe it is something like Beholder: 4 votes, Jotaro: 2 votes. I will do a vote check as soon as possible.
 
Beholder has 9. Jotaro has two as of right now, including yourself. And... no, you haven't debunked, merely presented a possible outcome. Debunking would mean it would be literally impossible, which it isn't, it just has a possibility to fail.
 
I have presented the most LIKELY course of action Jotaro would take based on what we've seen. This likely course of action outright counters and wins against what has been presented about Beholder. Previous arguments did not take Jotaro's character and course of action into account. Now that it has been provided these arguments are no longer valid.

You need to either refute Jotaro's course of action by suggesting something else that he'd likely do, or by explaining how said course of action does not win against Beholder.

Since all previous votes did not take a key part of the argument into account, (how Jotaro would react) and assumed he would stand there and get eaten, they are no longer valid votes.
 
Just to clarify, not all votes for Beholder are invalid, because there are still valid arguments on his behalf. People can believe that he will win with the telekinesis ray (even if Jotaro has explicitly tanked stronger) this is fine.

The only votes for Beholder that are invalid are ones that rely on or support the logic of him disabling Star Platinum with his anti-magic cone and winning from there. This does not take into account how he will win, and does not take into account how Jotaro will react to such an event (which ends up countering Beholder entirely)
 
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Anakin vs. Shanks 2 Electric Boogaloo
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TegamiBachi25
TegamiBachi25
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