Behold, a High 3-A (Zeraora downgrade)

[Overlord775]

Behold, a High 3-A!



A High 3-A incapable to scratch an High 7-A [0:44 in the video]



A High 3-A beaten by an High-7-A's attack

and the reason for this Pokemon being High 3-A ? Why of course, a single showing against an Ultra Beast, but guess what ? That's not even a valid reason.

Zeraora didn't even take the ultra beast alone. His attacks did no actual damage on Guzzlord (even Close Combact, a supereffective move, didn't do anything), only stunning it for very short time at best, with Zeraora's trainer even stating that Plasma Fists isn't powerful enough.

Further evidence

(And by defences here, he means literally just moving an arm in front of the attack]

Furthermore, Zeraora got swatted away like a fly by the ultra beast.

The only way they won at all is thanks to a double Z-move from both it and Ash's Pikachu.

also to note and to make everyone remember, trained pokemons can get waaaay stronger than wild ones, and the Zeraora shown here is a trained one so it shouldn't even be used as the standard to begin with.

There's also the fact that in both the Power of Us Movie and Episode 101 of the Sun/Moon Anime it's shown that Zeraora is even matched with Ash's Pikachu, but the lil' guy has inconsistent power so it's not hard evidence and more just food for thought

So yeah, this is an extremely flimsy rating at best. Zeraora should have the same rating as low end mythical pokemons (Low 6-B)

 

[Hasty12345]

Tyranitar should be high 3-A

 

[Arceus0x]

fair enough, good by me

 

[Sniper670]

Why was it high 3A anyway.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disagreeing. Setting up counters now.

 

[Ego]

Galaxy level t-tar or 7-B ultra beast

 

[Arceus0x]

Galaxy level t-tar or 7-B ultra beast

F

 

[Arceus0x]

Behold, a High 3-A!


A High 3-A incapable to scratch an High 7-A [0:44 in the video]

Also

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Alright, so lets first knock away what's just laughable to use as an argument.

Behold, a High 3-A!



A High 3-A incapable to scratch an High 7-A [0:44 in the video]

I really hope that there isn't any amount of seriousness here for this first point.

We're really going to use Pokemon Snap, which not only isn't considered any sort of canon here, but a fight scene that is also literally RIDDLED with game mechanics? No seriously, not even an actual cut scene or an attempt at using one, just a regular game mechanic battle? Should we knock off more legendaries ratings with the good ol FEAR Ratatta strategy?

You should know better than to try using this. This point is just completely worthless in every way. And the following point is, while better, just as bad of an argument.

A High 3-A beaten by an High-7-A's attack

Let's clear some things up here.

First of all, Zeraora wasn't "beaten" by those hunter's pokemon. It was fatigued in battle because of injuries it already sustained prior to that confrontation (i'll deal with this more below). The hunters and Margo already pointed this out. But even if there is some level of truth to a High 7-A "beating" Zeraora, the fight in itself and the movie already show why this outlier is inconsistent. Zeraora casually stopped Houndoom and Sneasels attacks just by appearing before them when the fight started, it was then blitzing them with ease. Then we have Zeraora, later in the movie, holding up a full on battle with Ash's Pikachu without any passing out in the slightest.

Ash's Pikachu, who in this timeline, not only made those hunters retreat, but is also on the level of legendaries like Marshadow and had a fight with Ho-Oh and lived to tell about it.

It's also a thing in Zeraora's backstory that many trainers and pokemon would go to battle in in the forest it lives in The Power of Us, and fail to catch it.

So, unless you want to try arguing Ash's Pikachu and many other trainer's pokemon being inferior to 2 nameless hunter's pokemon, this isn't much of an anti-feat to try using here to discredit High 3-A.

and the reason for this Pokemon being High 3-A ? Why of course, a single showing against an Ultra Beast, but guess what ? That's not even a valid reason.

Zeraora didn't even take the ultra beast alone. His attacks did no actual damage on Guzzlord (even Close Combact, a supereffective move, didn't do anything), only stunning it for very short time at best, with Zeraora's trainer even stating that Plasma Fists isn't powerful enough.

Further evidence

(And by defences here, he means literally just moving an arm in front of the attack]

Now to deal with this. This is not entirely wrong, but the big problem is that this is missing quite a lot of context that you're trying to cover up with a few scans.

First, that Close Combat. Zerora not damaging it with Close Combat doesn't mean it didn't match it's power, which it did. Guzzlord was firing a punch at Pikachu, which the Close Combat that Zeraora used the first time knocked away. But even better? When they fight Guzzlord the second time and it uses close combat, Zeraora literally gets into a parrying combat match with Guzzlord before it gets knocked away.

Then, with Plasma Fists, Zerora didn't just stun it. In flashbacks were you get these scans from, those flashbacks literally shows Zeraora pushing back Guzzlord with Plasma Fists. And interestingly enough, the OP mentioning Guzzlord blocking the second plasma fists, if anything, suggests Guzzlord wouldn't have just stood there and took it without any sort of effect, since it wouldn't have needed to actively block it with its hands if it could.

So no, this idea that Guzzlord just no-selled everything Zeraora did and "swatted it away like a fly", like it was an encounter that Guzzlord casually dominated in, is a definite misrepresentation of what actually happens and is absolutely false. The only level of truth the OP's arguments give is that Zeraora couldn't defeat Guzzlord by itself without Pikachu's role in sending it back to Ultra Space. All that shows, is that Zeraora isn't quite as strong as Guzzlord, which is not enough for this downgrade.

Everyone here should know by now that X defeating Y is not the only method of scaling tiers, a practice Pokemon already makes accepted use of. Don't know how many times we have to mention this before the point gets knocked in. Zeraora couldn't beat Guzzlord? Cool. It still parried attacks from Guzzlord, and being able to push it back with it's own attacks. Result? Zeraora's strong enough to counter it's attacks. It's in the same realm of power as Guzzlord, even if weaker. That is still High 3-A, or else Zeraora wouldve been stomped the second the encounters began. The only thing the OP's points call for, is adjusting it's level of High 3-A, not that it has to be downgraded from High 3-A entirely.

Next, the point on trained pokemon

also to note and to make everyone remember, trained pokemons can get waaaay stronger than wild ones, and the Zeraora shown here is a trained one so it shouldn't even be used as the standard to begin with.

This is a downright lie, at least in Zeraora's case.

First of all, I don't know where in the hell we got this idea that "trained legendaries" are somehow superior to wild ones, when their tiers and powersets are literally the same, but this has never been a thing as far as i've been here on this site. Legendaries are next level compared to ordinary pokemon, there's no realistic method of training, outside of game mechanics, that somehow allows a legendary to become stronger than they usually are. Do you seriously think Tobias managed to snag a Darkrai that he could somehow make stronger by fighting a bunch of nobodies? Would you think Giratina or Dialga would become higher 2-A's if Cynthia or the player catches them and puts them in a 1000 matches in a row against a trainer and some Tyranitar or Torterra? No, because that's completely ridiculous to believe. And it ain't like champion trainers carry around a Palkia or Arceus, the only pokemon whos strength would remotely matter for the formers as training partners, to use in training.

Second of all, even if there was any sort of truth to the above, this is most definitely not the case for Zeraora. Dia's Zeraora is not trained. In fact, Zeraora isn't even Dia's pokemon. Dia literally came across Zeraora out of nowhere when they both acted to send Guzzlord back to Ultra Space, so because they both had common interests, they teamed up to accomplish this. Dia never officially caught Zeraora.

And in their world, Guzzlord's attack made Alola's citizens abandon their home and fleed, leaving only Dia and Zeraora behind in their mission to send Guzzlord back, so what opponents would there possibly be to somehow make this Zeraora any more stronger than a normal one? Don't answer, because there isn't.

And finally, to address Ash and Pikachu's role in all this.

There's also the fact that in both the Power of Us Movie and Episode 101 of the Sun/Moon Anime it's shown that Zeraora is even matched with Ash's Pikachu, but the lil' guy has inconsistent power so it's not hard evidence and more just food for thought.

This argument is also full of holes since the Power of Us Ash and Pikachu is explicitly different from the originals, and only the latters get hit with the "inconsistent power" stick. (which really isn't even a thing currently anymore, but beside the point).

Like I said above, PoU Ash and Pikachu are on the level of legendaries. In I Choose You, the same timeline as PoU, Pikachu fought head to head with both Marshadow and Ho-Oh, and lived to tell about it. It has never once faltered or failed against ordinary pokemon like the original Pikachu was once burdened with.

But we can put inconsistencies for Pikachu aside, because Ash and Pikachu being evenly matched with Zeraora in the Sun/Moon anime is straight up false. Dia and Zeraora stomped Ash and Pikachu in their first battle, Pikachu didn't harm Zeraora at all, Zeraora countered all of it's attacks with ease, and then stomped it with Plasma Fists. They then had to train with Ash and Pikachu so that they could help Pikachu get ready for their next encounter with Guzzlord.

The scan the OP uses where Ash says they're "evenly matched" ignores context. Ash said that because Zeraora and Pikachu were battling with the purpose of trying to unleash enough energy so that the poral to Ash's universe would reappear and send he and Pikachu home. They weren't having some serious battle to see who's the stronger one like the OP's comment played this off to be.

Power of Us Pikachu matching Zeraora is a different story, but like I said above, Zeraora was injured for pretty much the entire movie, and even then, this Pikachu's tier is different from the main series's. If anything, the reverse can be argued to just scale PoU Pikachu to Zeraora, assuming the Coco movie doesn't interfere with this. But again, this is beside the point here.

Im completely against this downgrade. Between a mix of excluding context, misrepresenating what was happening, and using weak arguments of inconssitency, the OP's argument falls apart just like it did the last time when trying to oppose High 3-A.

So yeah, this is an extremely flimsy rating at best. Zeraora should have the same rating as low end mythical pokemons (Low 6-B)

 

[Arceus0x]

UHHHHHHHHH about training legendaries...you might wanna check CalHowards trainer revisions...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

UHHHHHHHHH about training legendaries...you might wanna check CalHowards trainer revisions...

Um, unless im missing something, Cal's purpose with that thread is to get trainers and their trained pokemon to scale to legendaries. Not make legendaries stronger than they normally are.

 

[Arceus0x]

Um, unless im missing something, Cal's purpose with that thread is to get trainers and their trained pokemon to scale to legendaries. Not make legendaries stronger than they normally are.

legendaries too mate, 2-A mewtwo is gonna be a thing for giovanni

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

legendaries too mate, 2-A mewtwo is gonna be a thing for giovanni

That's not gonna be because of training though, but only cuz Giovanni's the strongest antagonist in Rainbow Rocket.

Either way this doesn't really matter since Dia's Zeraora here for multiple reasons isn't trained.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

First of all, I don't know where in the hell we got this idea that "trained legendaries" are somehow superior to wild ones, when their tiers and powersets are literally the same, but this has never been a thing as far as i've been here on this site. Legendaries are next level compared to ordinary pokemon, there's no realistic method of training, outside of game mechanics, that somehow allows a legendary to become stronger than they usually are. Do you seriously think Tobias managed to snag a Darkrai that he could somehow make stronger by fighting a bunch of nobodies? Would you think Giratina or Dialga would become higher 2-A's if Cynthia or the player catches them and puts them in a 1000 matches in a row against a trainer and some Tyranitar or Torterra? No, because that's completely ridiculous to believe. And it ain't like champion trainers carry around a Palkia or Arceus, the only pokemon whos strength would remotely matter for the formers as training partners, to use in training.

Brandon has High 6-A Legendary Birds tho

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Brandon has High 6-A Legendary Birds tho

Okay i'll admit I forgot this. But wouldn't Brandon be an exception since he actually owns legendaries besides them? He owns the regis, so it makes since for his bird trio to be stronger than their normal selves. Especially since theyre supposed to be an even stronger team than his regis.

 

[Overlord775]

Alright, so lets first knock away what's just laughable to use as an argument.

I really hope that there isn't any amount of seriousness here for this first point.

We're really going to use Pokemon Snap, which not only isn't considered any sort of canon here, but a fight scene that is also literally RIDDLED with game mechanics? No seriously, not even an actual cut scene or an attempt at using one, just a regular game mechanic battle? Should we knock off more legendaries ratings with the good ol FEAR Ratatta strategy?

There not really any reason for Snap to not be canon, especially since the games are directly connected to main line via Oak and also the MC appearing in the anime

also no, you can't call that "game mechanics", the game doesnt even have fighting "mechanics". That is a scripted event, it's for all sense and purposes a cut-scene without a cut of player control.

First of all, Zeraora wasn't "beaten" by those hunter's pokemon. It was fatigued in battle because of injuries it already sustained prior to that confrontation (i'll deal with this more below). The hunters and Margo already pointed this out.

Ah yes, moderately injured = a literal infinite power downgrade, very logically sound.

also being hurt just doesn't make you easier to hurt, your flesh doesn't become jello if you are stabbed.

But even if there is some level of truth to a High 7-A "beating" Zeraora, the fight in itself and the movie already show why this outlier is inconsistent. Zeraora casually stopped Houndoom and Sneasels attacks just by appearing before them when the fight started, it was then blitzing them with ease.

You don't need to be much stronger to deflect away attacks. Also he didn't "stomp" said attacks since they clearly were a threat since he was knocked out for several hours by the flamethrower.

also he didn't one-shot the two pokemon either.

Then we have Zeraora, later in the movie, holding up a full on battle with Ash's Pikachu without any passing out in the slightest.

Ash's Pikachu, who in this timeline, not only made those hunters retreat, but is also on the level of legendaries like Marshadow and had a fight with Ho-Oh and lived to tell about it.

Both Ho-ho and Marshadow are 6-B, so not sure what your point is there

also, no, the hunters didn't retreat because of Pikachu, but because of the 4 other guys with fully evolved and non pokemon showed up.

It's also a thing in Zeraora's backstory that many trainers and pokemon would go to battle in in the forest it lives in The Power of Us, and fail to catch it.

that'd only puts him at Suicune level of power

So, unless you want to try arguing Ash's Pikachu and many other trainer's pokemon being inferior to 2 nameless hunter's pokemon, this isn't much of an anti-feat to try using here to discredit High 3-A.

No, even if pikachu is stronger than those two it doesn't negate the point. He was badly hurt by a normal, High 7-A pokemon.

Now to deal with this. This is not entirely wrong, but the big problem is that this is missing quite a lot of context that you're trying to cover up with a few scans.

First, that Close Combat. Zerora not damaging it with Close Combat doesn't mean it didn't match it's power, which it did. Guzzlord was firing a punch at Pikachu, which the Close Combat that Zeraora used the first time knocked away. But even better? When they fight Guzzlord the second time and it uses close combat, Zeraora literally gets into a parrying combat match with Guzzlord before it gets knocked away.

Yet, if you actually look Guzzlord is not even as much as lightly scratched nor sounds hurt, it looks annoyed at best.

Then, with Plasma Fists, Zerora didn't just stun it. In flashbacks were you get these scans from, those flashbacks literally shows Zeraora pushing back Guzzlord with Plasma Fists. And interestingly enough, the OP mentioning Guzzlord blocking the second plasma fists, if anything, suggests Guzzlord wouldn't have just stood there and took it without any sort of effect, since it wouldn't have needed to actively block it with its hands if it could.

You can move a statue without being able to break it.

Also It needed to block because it was aiming at it's weakspot (The small head), which as far as plot based inconsistencies go it's a fairly standard thing.

So no, this idea that Guzzlord just no-selled everything Zeraora did and "swatted it away like a fly", like it was an encounter that Guzzlord casually dominated in, is a definite misrepresentation of what actually happens and is absolutely false.

Show me where Guzzlord looks harmed or even pained by a normal attack of Zeraora.

The only level of truth the OP's arguments give is that Zeraora couldn't defeat Guzzlord by itself without Pikachu's role in sending it back to Ultra Space. All that shows, is that Zeraora isn't quite as strong as Guzzlord, which is not enough for this downgrade.

Everyone here should know by now that X defeating Y is not the only method of scaling tiers, a practice Pokemon already makes accepted use of. Don't know how many times we have to mention this before the point gets knocked in. Zeraora couldn't beat Guzzlord? Cool. It still parried attacks from Guzzlord, and being able to push it back with it's own attacks. Result? Zeraora's strong enough to counter it's attacks. It's in the same realm of power as Guzzlord, even if weaker.

More like they neither could do anything at all, with even Dia himself calling the situation hopeless and just telling Ash to run for it, until Tapu Koko pulled a deus ex machina and saved them.

Also if you count any kind of physical interaction as scaling then upgrade every pokemon and human to High 3-A, because literally everybody and their mother can do that kind of stuff to Ultra Beasts or to people that scale to Ultra Beasts

HELL, a steel pillar shot from a big sling threatened Guzzlord as much as Zeraora's attacks

That is still High 3-A, or else Zeraora wouldve been stomped the second the encounters began. The only thing the OP's points call for, is adjusting it's level of High 3-A, not that it has to be downgraded from High 3-A entirely.

I fnid it amusing you can't even conceive the possibility this could be an outlier for Zeraora, in a series well known for inconsistent power showings.

This is a downright lie, at least in Zeraora's case.

First of all, I don't know where in the hell we got this idea that "trained legendaries" are somehow superior to wild ones, when their tiers and powersets are literally the same, but this has never been a thing as far as i've been here on this site. Legendaries are next level compared to ordinary pokemon, there's no realistic method of training, outside of game mechanics, that somehow allows a legendary to become stronger than they usually are. Do you seriously think Tobias managed to snag a Darkrai that he could somehow make stronger by fighting a bunch of nobodies? Would you think Giratina or Dialga would become higher 2-A's if Cynthia or the player catches them and puts them in a 1000 matches in a row against a trainer and some Tyranitar or Torterra? No, because that's completely ridiculous to believe. And it ain't like champion trainers carry around a Palkia or Arceus, the only pokemon whos strength would remotely matter for the formers as training partners, to use in training.

Brandon

Second of all, even if there was any sort of truth to the above, this is most definitely not the case for Zeraora. Dia's Zeraora is not trained. In fact, Zeraora isn't even Dia's pokemon. Dia literally came across Zeraora out of nowhere when they both acted to send Guzzlord back to Ultra Space, so because they both had common interests, they teamed up to accomplish this. Dia never officially caught Zeraora.

Doesn't matter, you don't need to catch a pokemon to train it. Dia and Zora have been together for several years at the point of the story and their bond was directly compared to the one Ash has with Pikachu [and you can give many ***** to the boy, but he's got 7 regions worth of pokemon bond knowledge so he knows what he talks about here)

And in their world, Guzzlord's attack made Alola's citizens abandon their home and fleed, leaving only Dia and Zeraora behind in their mission to send Guzzlord back, so what opponents would there possibly be to somehow make this Zeraora any more stronger than a normal one? Don't answer, because there isn't.

You DON'T need an opponent to train, have you ever been to a gym ? or did any physical exercise ?

Also... there IS one in fact, Dia, as humans throwing hands with pokemons is the regular. Hell, Ash survived a direct Plasma Fist in the movie

This argument is also full of holes since the Power of Us Ash and Pikachu is explicitly different from the originals, and only the latters get hit with the "inconsistent power" stick. (which really isn't even a thing currently anymore, but beside the point).

Like I said above, PoU Ash and Pikachu are on the level of legendaries. In I Choose You, the same timeline as PoU, Pikachu fought head to head with both Marshadow and Ho-Oh, and lived to tell about it. It has never once faltered or failed against ordinary pokemon like the original Pikachu was once burdened with.

That actually helps my argument more since that would be only 6-B

But we can put inconsistencies for Pikachu aside, because Ash and Pikachu being evenly matched with Zeraora in the Sun/Moon anime is straight up false. Dia and Zeraora stomped Ash and Pikachu in their first battle, Pikachu didn't harm Zeraora at all, Zeraora countered all of it's attacks with ease, and then stomped it with Plasma Fists. They then had to train with Ash and Pikachu so that they could help Pikachu get ready for their next encounter with Guzzlord.

Pikachu also countered most of all attacks during each of the three fights they had, even other uses of Plasma Fists in fact.

In fact, Pikachu even landed lightning bolt and even caused visible effort for the mystic pokemon to dodge his Quick Attack

The scan the OP uses where Ash says they're "evenly matched" ignores context. Ash said that because Zeraora and Pikachu were battling with the purpose of trying to unleash enough energy so that the poral to Ash's universe would reappear and send he and Pikachu home. They weren't having some serious battle to see who's the stronger one like the OP's comment played this off to be.

That's... just not what evenly matched means, like at ALL.

Also, for the last thing, there isn't really anything pointing at Zeraora being infinitely casual there.

Power of Us Pikachu matching Zeraora is a different story, but like I said above, Zeraora was injured for pretty much the entire movie, and even then, this Pikachu's tier is different from the main series's. If anything, the reverse can be argued to just scale PoU Pikachu to Zeraora, assuming the Coco movie doesn't interfere with this. But again, this is beside the point here.

Unless you want to say that falling rocks turn Zeraora from High 3-A to 6-B, your point doesn't stand

also making pikachu high 3-A would make every other pokemon High 3-A by proxy

Im completely against this downgrade. Between a mix of excluding context, misrepresenating what was happening, and using weak arguments of inconssitency, the OP's argument falls apart just like it did the last time when trying to oppose High 3-A.

no need to get personal man

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Um, unless im missing something, Cal's purpose with that thread is to get trainers and their trained pokemon to scale to legendaries. Not make legendaries stronger than they normally are.

Its possible for a trained legendary to be really strong for the same reason why its possible for regular Pokemon with a good trainer to be stronger than ultra beasts

Also, I have better evidence for Zeraora, will be typing them soon

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Will be responding soon.

 

[Hasty12345]

strongly leaning towards agreeing

 

[XXKINGXX69]

strongly leaning towards agreeing

Did you read kukui's comments?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There not really any reason for Snap to not be canon, especially since the games are directly connected to main line via Oak and also the MC appearing in the anime

No reason not to be canon isn’t enough, you need a reason for it to be. Show me when either of the latters happened please, especially for this new version of Snap.

also no, you can't call that "game mechanics", the game doesnt even have fighting "mechanics". That is a scripted event, it's for all sense and purposes a cut-scene without a cut of player control.

It doesn’t matter if it has “fighting” mechanics or is just “picture” mechanics. Game Mechanics are game mechanics, calling it something different doesn’t negate what it actually is, this ain’t a cutscene in any way.

Ah yes, moderately injured = a literal infinite power downgrade, very logically sound.

Nice job putting words in my mouth, but that’s not what I said.

And even you should know how much the treatment of legendaries not one shooting normal Pokémon happens and is totally irrelevant as counter arguments against their ratings. You can’t use High 7-A “anti feats” and then argue the Pokémon your trying to downgrade is above High 7-A at the same time.

also being hurt just doesn't make you easier to hurt, your flesh doesn't become jello if you are stabbed.

When did I say anything about this? Again, putting words I didn’t say in my mouth. The point is Zeraora was already wounded before those hunters even fought it.

You don't need to be much stronger to deflect away attacks.

Even when he’s doing it just by literally appearing?

Also he didn't "stomp" said attacks since they clearly were a threat since he was knocked out for several hours by the flamethrower.

also he didn't one-shot the two pokemon either.

Pay attention. I said stopped. Not stomped. And they weren’t a threat when much stronger Pokémon like Ash’s Pikachu didn’t cause Zeraora to be knocked out in the slightest.

And “Not one shotting” isn’t anything new for legendaries in this franchise when the anime doesn’t exactly always go with the notion of them being absolutely light years ahead of non legendaries, when we know they are. Simple PIS

Mewtwo didn’t one shot a Tyranitar or 2 Escavaliers in the anime. We aren’t gonna downgrade Mewtwo now are we?

Its also just as possible that Zeraoras aim wasn’t to completely eviscerate Houndoom and Snealsel either. Just like, say, Pikachu not one shotting a damn wild Eevee when that girl was borrowing Pikachu to catch it.

Both Ho-ho and Marshadow are 6-B, so not sure what your point is there

The point is, Ash’s Pikachu is leagues above nameless hunter Pokémon. Zeraora didn’t get knocked out or pass out against Pikachu at all.

So that throws the whole flamethrower point out the window. Being 6-B or not doesn’t matter.

also, no, the hunters didn't retreat because of Pikachu, but because of the 4 other guys with fully evolved and non pokemon showed up.

4 guys who include a featless scientist, a mayor, and an old lady who don’t battle at all.

It’s obvious who they retreated from. Pikachu, who was the only one to actively intervene against them.

that'd only puts him at Suicune level of power

Again, the tier doesn’t matter for this point. The point is, a bunch of Pokémon much stronger than namesless hunters Pokémon fought Zeraora and failed without getting it to fall.

Yet you still adamantly believe a hunters Pokémon can make it pass out

No, even if pikachu is stronger than those two it doesn't negate the point.

It absolutely negates it since it’s proof a High 7-A can’t realistically harm or knockout Zeraora, and what becomes the outlier is Houndoom, not Zeraora.

And like I said, you can’t try and use High 7-A feats to argue Zeraora to be 6-B simultaneously.

Yet, if you actually look Guzzlord is not even as much as lightly scratched nor sounds hurt, it looks annoyed at best.

Once again, who ******* cares? It’s still matching Guzzlords attacks with colliding strikes. It doesn’t NEED to harm it.

You can move a statue without being able to break it.

Very bad comparison. Moving an immobile statue is lifting strength, literally forcing someone to move and overpowering them requires scaling to their power.

Also It needed to block because it was aiming at it's weakspot (The small head), which as far as plot based inconsistencies go it's a fairly standard thing.

But why actively try blocking it if it’s supposed to not be harmed in the slightest?

Show me where Guzzlord looks harmed or even pained by a normal attack of Zeraora.

I’m not reposting my album, but litterally getting forced back by Plasma Fists should say this.

But really, I don’t need to prove Guzzlord was harmed, because like said already, Zeraora matching it’s attacks is enough for scaling it’s power to the other.

More like they neither could do anything at all, with even Dia himself calling the situation hopeless and just telling Ash to run for it, until Tapu Koko pulled a deus ex machina and saved them.

The scans very much say otherwise and Dia said it was hopeless because they were trying to get it back to Ultra Space fast enough before the ultra wormhole closed, not because Zeraora couldn’t do anything.

Also if you count any kind of physical interaction as scaling then upgrade every pokemon and human to High 3-A, because literally everybody and their mother can do that kind of stuff to Ultra Beasts or to people that scale to Ultra Beasts

This is exaggeration, because literally matching someone’s strikes blow to blow and being able to push them back is not just “any kind of physical interaction”

HELL, a steel pillar shot from a big sling threatened Guzzlord as much as Zeraora's attacks

Please tell me you’re joking lmao. No seriously, because this is now next level desperation for anti feats.

I fnid it amusing you can't even conceive the possibility this could be an outlier for Zeraora, in a series well known for inconsistent power showings.

And when the person arguing against this is known for being biased against the tiers, has made failed attempts at knocking them away and is reaching the point of getting any desperate type of inconsistency to build up anti feats, yeah I’m not good to be to open for considering anything from you.

Brandon

Someone who owns multiple legendaries that can each very well fight against each other. Yeah not exactly the same thing as someone taking a legendary, fighting and stomping a bunch of fodder, and then claiming they got stronger with “training”

Doesn't matter, you don't need to catch a pokemon to train it.

But it kinda does throw away the “training” point when Dia and Zeraora haven’t been partners for a long time and have absolutely no one to train against in the first place.

Dia and Zora have been together for several years at the point of the story

Not mentioned anywhere

and their bond was directly compared to the one Ash has with Pikachu [and you can give many ***** to the boy, but he's got 7 regions worth of pokemon bond knowledge so he knows what he talks about here)

Yeah, a bond that is was “so great” that Dia didn’t know a thing about how Zeraora felt, and they’ve been together as long as randomly meeting up with a single common interest: sending Guzzlord back.

You DON'T need an opponent to train, have you ever been to a gym ? or did any physical exercise ?

When your a fighting based series and arguing someone is several leagues stronger than normal? Your absolutely gonna need some damn good reasoning for that, and I HIGHLY highly doubt this Zeraora doing a bunch of leaps or running around was able to achieve that.

Also... there IS one in fact, Dia, as humans throwing hands with pokemons is the regular. Hell, Ash survived a direct Plasma Fist in the movie

Not even going to entertain this point. Cuz even ur own proposal of 6-B isn’t a thing if you take this remotely seriously.

That actually helps my argument more since that would be only 6-B

B-but Ash surviving Zeraoras attacks? Pick a stance and stick with it, then I could take this a little more seriously.

But no, this doesn’t really help you as it’s as big of an option as the option that Pikachu would just scale to tier 3 too, especially when PoU takes place quite some time after I Choose You.

Or an even simpler option that Zeraora wasn’t going all out against Pikachu. Whichever you wanna choose.

Pikachu also countered most of all attacks during each of the three fights they had, even other uses of Plasma Fists in fact.

Which if anything is just an outlier for Pikachu, and I can most definitely argue this with confidence since there’s absolutely no time between the 2 episodes that it could get stronger and go from getting curbed in the first match to then fighting evenly in the second.

In fact, Pikachu even landed lightning bolt and even caused visible effort for the mystic pokemon to dodge his Quick Attack

Because Zeraora purposely allowed that. They trained so Pikachu would get it’s attacks fast enough to tag it.

Visible effort is also not enough since they were training, it’s even more likely to argue Zeraora wasn’t using its full true speed.

That's... just not what evenly matched means, like at ALL.

I know it’s not. But that doesn’t knock my point away

All that battle was is for them to unleash enough power to cause Ash and Dias universes to reconnect so that Ash and Pikachu could go back, just like it happened earlier with Pikachus battle with Tapu Koko.

Unless you want to say that falling rocks turn Zeraora from High 3-A to 6-B, your point doesn't stand

Much like your point on a hunters Houndoom knocking out Zeraora doesn’t stand when far stronger Pokémon than Houndoom couldn’t do the same thing at all.

also making pikachu high 3-A would make every other pokemon High 3-A by proxy

Pikachu in this timeline scales to literally no one else.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Kukui FRA.

 

[Hasty12345]

Did you read kukui's comments?

yes

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I do agree that a wild Zeraora should just be comparable to Ho-Oh or Marshadow. Dia's Zeraora, however, should be Ultra Beast tier

Using Ash's Pikachu as an anti-feat is not a good thing. First of all, if you think Zeraora should be Low 6-B, why even say he consistently struggles with High 7-A? Second of all, our Pikachu profile is highly outdated. Pikachu isn't as inconsistent as you think in Alola

Zeraora could KO Pikachu with Plasma Fists even though Pikachu resisted the attack. Pikachu is fine after taking hits from Buzzwole, and isn't KO'd, meaning that Plasma Fists from Zeraora does more damage than Buzzwole's attacks.

Zeraora's Plasma Fists can clash evenly with Pikachu's thunderbolt. Pikachu's thunderbolt can clash evenly with Tapu Koko's and you can clearly see that Tapu Koko was exerting a lot of effort, so he's not holding back

Yeah, a bond that is was “so great” that Dia didn’t know a thing about how Zeraora felt, and they’ve been together as long as randomly meeting up with a single common interest: sending Guzzlord back.

Where did it say they just met up randomly? Its possible to have a strong bond with your Pokemon and still not understand how they feel. The bond between a trainer and Pokemon is what gives a Pokemon power, training isn't the only thing. What feats does wild Zeraora have to put it on Ultra Beast tier?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You guys do know that the same logic y’all are using for outliers applies even at Low 6-B, right? High 3-A hit by a High 7-A. Yeah. Instead it should be Low 6-B hurt by a High 7-A! Like…you’re still comparing a Legendary to a wild normal ‘mon, and your proposed tier should still have Zeraora oneshot. The downgrade is based on faulty logic.

That said, how on earth is the Pokémon Snap thing game mechanics lol?

 

[Overlord775]

(Sorry for taking so long to respond, was really busy lately+found myself in lack of will to use the forums)

No reason not to be canon isn’t enough, you need a reason for it to be. Show me when either of the latters happened please, especially for this new version of Snap.

Oak in the game

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP055

Todd Snap (P. Snap Protag) in the anime

also, the New Pokemon Snap is a direct sequel of the original game, as seen by the re-appearance of Todd, who is called an old acquaintance.

It doesn’t matter if it has “fighting” mechanics or is just “picture” mechanics. Game Mechanics are game mechanics, calling it something different doesn’t negate what it actually is, this ain’t a cutscene in any way.

This is the single handily most stupid thing you have ever said. That's like saying that

Nice job putting words in my mouth, but that’s not what I said.

that's literally what you are saying bruh

And even you should know how much the treatment of legendaries not one shooting normal Pokémon happens and is totally irrelevant as counter arguments against their ratings. You can’t use High 7-A “anti feats” and then argue the Pokémon your trying to downgrade is above High 7-A at the same time.

Higher end legendaries ARE shown to one shot normal pokemons on the regular, see Vicitini's power allowing Ash's pokemons to oneshot their opposition and P. Groudon knocking M.Char out of the fight with a single attack

Low 6-B legendaries in the meanwhile are consistently shown as only a peg above normal mons, just like Zeraora here is.

When did I say anything about this? Again, putting words I didn’t say in my mouth. The point is Zeraora was already wounded before those hunters even fought it.

and again, it shouldn't matter in the slightest if he's actually the tier he's currently.

Major legendaries can and have shrugs off any kind of attack even when injured.

Even when he’s doing it just by literally appearing?

no, by making an explosion of electricity. you know, his MAIN way of attacking ?

Pay attention. I said stopped. Not stomped. And they weren’t a threat when much stronger Pokémon like Ash’s Pikachu didn’t cause Zeraora to be knocked out in the slightest.

See what i said above on how legendaries are treated.

And “Not one shotting” isn’t anything new for legendaries in this franchise when the anime doesn’t exactly always go with the notion of them being absolutely light years ahead of non legendaries, when we know they are. Simple PIS

Mewtwo didn’t one shot a Tyranitar or 2 Escavaliers in the anime. We aren’t gonna downgrade Mewtwo now are we?

Its also just as possible that Zeraoras aim wasn’t to completely eviscerate Houndoom and Snealsel either. Just like, say, Pikachu not one shotting a damn wild Eevee when that girl was borrowing Pikachu to catch it.

Not sure which episode you are referring to, but no, you can't make that comparison.

Mewtwo has a two dozens of so appearances solidifying him as his tier, meanwhile Zeraora has exactly 3 appearances, 2 of which shown him as not very powerful and aligned with how low end legendaries are consistently portrayed, while the third is a trained one.

The point is, Ash’s Pikachu is leagues above nameless hunter Pokémon. Zeraora didn’t get knocked out or pass out against Pikachu at all.

So that throws the whole flamethrower point out the window. Being 6-B or not doesn’t matter

Again, the tier doesn’t matter for this point. The point is, a bunch of Pokémon much stronger than namesless hunters Pokémon fought Zeraora and failed without getting it to fall.

Yet you still adamantly believe a hunters Pokémon can make it pass out

See every pokemon hunter in a movie where the mythical pokemon is the subject of the hunting

it
happens
every
single
time

Hunter's mons are never shown as fodder compared to mystical, but they do are to major legendaries instead.

4 guys who include a featless scientist, a mayor, and an old lady who don’t battle at all.

It’s obvious who they retreated from. Pikachu, who was the only one to actively intervene against them.

except they didn't run away when Pikachu showed up, they only did so when the group showed up, so no.

also, they weren't even looking at pikachu when they bailed, but at the group.

It absolutely negates it since it’s proof a High 7-A can’t realistically harm or knockout Zeraora, and what becomes the outlier is Houndoom, not Zeraora.

And like I said, you can’t try and use High 7-A feats to argue Zeraora to be 6-B simultaneously.

Cuz low end legendaries are protrayed as only a peg above normal mons, even if we rate them as much higher.

Once again, who ******* cares? It’s still matching Guzzlords attacks with colliding strikes. It doesn’t NEED to harm it.

Very bad comparison. Moving an immobile statue is lifting strength, literally forcing someone to move and overpowering them requires scaling to their power.

But why actively try blocking it if it’s supposed to not be harmed in the slightest?

I’m not reposting my album, but litterally getting forced back by Plasma Fists should say this.

But really, I don’t need to prove Guzzlord was harmed, because like said already, Zeraora matching it’s attacks is enough for scaling it’s power to the other.

The scans very much say otherwise and Dia said it was hopeless because they were trying to get it back to Ultra Space fast enough before the ultra wormhole closed, not because Zeraora couldn’t do anything.

This is exaggeration, because literally matching someone’s strikes blow to blow and being able to push them back is not just “any kind of physical interaction”

EEEEEH, sure, gonna concede on Dia's being High 3-A, but that's not what matters for the profile as that's for a Wild one

And when the person arguing against this is known for being biased against the tiers, has made failed attempts at knocking them away and is reaching the point of getting any desperate type of inconsistency to build up anti feats, yeah I’m not good to be to open for considering anything from you.

when that amounts to a single downgrade thread you are really blowing things out of proportions

Someone who owns multiple legendaries that can each very well fight against each other. Yeah not exactly the same thing as someone taking a legendary, fighting and stomping a bunch of fodder, and then claiming they got stronger with “training”

But it kinda does throw away the “training” point when Dia and Zeraora haven’t been partners for a long time and have absolutely no one to train against in the first place.

friendly reminder Ash trained his pokemons without fights several times over the source of the show and it is shown to give results

also that's complete and pure nonsense considering the events of the two episodes (and also just the fact they can Z-Move)

Not mentioned anywhere

heavily implied

Yeah, a bond that is was “so great” that Dia didn’t know a thing about how Zeraora felt, and they’ve been together as long as randomly meeting up with a single common interest: sending Guzzlord back.

That's clearly shown to be more humbleness than anything else considering what they actually show

When your a fighting based series and arguing someone is several leagues stronger than normal? Your absolutely gonna need some damn good reasoning for that, and I HIGHLY highly doubt this Zeraora doing a bunch of leaps or running around was able to achieve that.

see stuff liek pikachu and monferno becoming much stronger by simply bonding, see several mons becoming stronger by just using their attacks.

B-but Ash surviving Zeraoras attacks? Pick a stance and stick with it, then I could take this a little more seriously.

Not sure what you even mean here ?

But no, this doesn’t really help you as it’s as big of an option as the option that Pikachu would just scale to tier 3 too, especially when PoU takes place quite some time after I Choose You.

considering pikachu still rumbles with normal pokemons, it would be pretty nonsensical.

Or an even simpler option that Zeraora wasn’t going all out against Pikachu. Whichever you wanna choose.

of course, the rampaging pokemon isn't going all-out, of course

Much like your point on a hunters Houndoom knocking out Zeraora doesn’t stand when far stronger Pokémon than Houndoom couldn’t do the same thing at all.

You sure repeat yourself a lot don't you ? this is like the third time in the same post you said that.

Pikachu in this timeline scales to literally no one else.

I literally do not believe you, i am 100% confident you are ignoring a lot of stuff that goes against your point.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Disagree with this. Dia explicably stated that Zeraora helped him to fight Guzzlord in his universe, and alongside Ash's Pikachu, Zeraora greatly helped them to battle Guzzlord

 

[Overlord775]

and that doesn't scale to a wild Zeraora, so doesn't matter

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

and that doesn't scale to a wild Zeraora, so doesn't matter

Zeraora wasn't Dia's Pokemon. Nor did Dia trained it. He was only with him because both had a common goal to defeat Guzzlord. This was said in the episode

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Zeraora wasn't Dia's Pokemon. Nor did Dia trained it. He was only with him because both had a common goal to defeat Guzzlord. This was said in the episode

Dia uses the Zeraora, and regular Zeraoras are Ho-Oh tier, so we can infer that Dia's Zeraora is simply a lot stronger than a wild Zeraora

Also, I proved that Dia's Zeraora is tier 3 without even using Guzzlord in my comment that Overlord didn't quote, I'm assuming you agree with that?

Anyways, agree with country level Zeraora, and Dia's Zeraora would be tier 3. Maybe his own profile too

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Dia uses the Zeraora, and regular Zeraoras are Ho-Oh tier, so we can infer that Dia's Zeraora is simply a lot stronger than a wild Zeraora

There's a difference between used and trained. Dia isn't Zeraora's trainer, nor did he trained it. They worked together only because thry have the same goal to stop Guzzlord

 

[XXKINGXX69]

There's a difference between used and trained. Dia isn't Zeraora's trainer, nor did he trained it. They worked together only because thry have the same goal to stop Guzzlord

A Pokemon grows stronger if it has a bond with its trainer. When Dia uses Zeraora, there is a bond, and as mentioned before, their bond is compared to the bond between Ash and Pikachu

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A Pokemon grows stronger if it has a bond with its trainer. When Dia uses Zeraora, there is a bond, and as mentioned before, their bond is compared to the bond between Ash and Pikachu

Yeah no, there’s absolutely nothing in the franchise that proves this. This is just ridiculous.

Going to respond to the other stuff soon too.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah no, there’s absolutely nothing in the franchise that proves this. This is just ridiculous.

Going to respond to the other stuff soon too.

Yes it does, its confirmed here. The whole series is about the bond between trainer and Pokemon empowering them. This is why Mega Evolution, Z-moves, Dynamax are powerful, they bring out the true power of those bonds. It even gives Pokemon new abilities and resistances

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ugh, yeah, I agree with this. Kukui's arguments are really not good this time around.

First of all, Zeraora wasn't "beaten" by those hunter's pokemon. It was fatigued in battle because of injuries it already sustained prior to that confrontation

No amount of injuries, or context is enough to justify this altercation, at all. It was damaged, and hurt by characters with finite amounts of power. It may acts as an Anti-Feat for High 3-A, end of story.

You guys do know that the same logic y’all are using for outliers applies even at Low 6-B, right? High 3-A hit by a High 7-A. Yeah. Instead it should be Low 6-B hurt by a High 7-A! Like…you’re still comparing a Legendary to a wild normal ‘mon, and your proposed tier should still have Zeraora oneshot. The downgrade is based on faulty logic.

Not at all. We do not, and by that I mean DO NOT use energy levels, and much less "fixed one shot gaps" as measurement for how strong a character should be, we use the distance between the tiers. The fact is, high-end Tier 7 and low-end Tier 6 gap is far more reasonable than Tier 7 and the very top of Tier 3. Claming a Low 6-B should without a doubt one shot a High 7-A is faulty because that varies between each verse. The exception obviously comes with exceptionally great tier differences, or infinity.

The High 7-A anti-feat is legit for a Tier 7 to 3 gap. But obviously doesn't work for a Tier 7 to 6 gap.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is the single handily most stupid thing you have ever said. That's like saying that

Saying what? That using an actual damn cutscene thats realistically indicative of the pokemons portryal is the only thing from games we take as evidence, besides you know, lore? This doesnt match a thing from games that we take from evidence. This is as much a "cutscene" as arguing something like SwSh's Pokemon Camp being a cutscene.

The only leg you have to make this stand on is it being a game without battle mechanics like pokemon games usually have, and I shouldn't have to explain why something doesn't need to be battle oriented to still be considered game mechanics.

Not to mention, like I will reiterate below, even if there was somehow some level of truth to this, you are still using evidence that would suggest Zeraora isn't even tier 7 to argue against tier 3, yet at the same time, you're arguing its tier 6 at the bare minimum. That already invalidates this as an anti feat. You cant have your cake and eat it too, either throw this out as PIS or argue for Zeraora to be tier 7.

that's literally what you are saying bruh


Higher end legendaries ARE shown to one shot normal pokemons on the regular, see Vicitini's power allowing Ash's pokemons to oneshot their opposition and P. Groudon knocking M.Char out of the fight with a single attack

You mean a Charizard who didnt de-mega evolve? Because a mega evolution being undone is when a mega evolved pokemon is actually defeated, yet that didn't happen.

Other examples of legendaries not one shotting exist too. Mewtwo, again, not one shotting Tyranitar or Escavaliers, even when mega evolved. Primal Kyogre not one shotting Stevens Mega Metagross. Yveltal not one shotting a hunter and his daughters Aeglishash's. ******* Giratina not one shotting Team Rockets Wobbafet. The anime not portraying legendaries as untouchable figures on several occassions is a blatant consistent thing that happens, but we dont use nonsense like these to argue against the legendaries tiers, and this case with Zeraora, who doesnt want to eviscerate a bunch of pokemon, is the same.

Low 6-B legendaries in the meanwhile are consistently shown as only a peg above normal mons, just like Zeraora here is.

Right so when legendaries like the birds causing the world to be almost destroyed just by merely fighting and not a single normal pokemon being able to do a thing to stop them means "only a peg" above them? Lugia hardly being phased by a raid battle against Ash and other trainers means that too?

Regardless, my point still holds. If you're arguing for above tier 7 Zeraora, then all of these tier 7 "anti feats" immediately become invalidated and you have nothing. Cant have it both ways.

and again, it shouldn't matter in the slightest if he's actually the tier he's currently.

Major legendaries can and have shrugs off any kind of attack even when injured.

Arceus of all things says otherwise.

no, by making an explosion of electricity. you know, his MAIN way of attacking ?

You do realize Zeraora releases electricity with sheer movement right?

See what i said above on how legendaries are treated.

And also see above on what I said against that.

Not sure which episode you are referring to, but no, you can't make that comparison.

Mewtwo has a two dozens of so appearances solidifying him as his tier, meanwhile Zeraora has exactly 3 appearances, 2 of which shown him as not very powerful and aligned with how low end legendaries are consistently portrayed, while the third is a trained one.

Zeraora has no traned variant at all. Stop with this headcanon.

And the amount of showings between Mewtwo and Zeraora means shit here to the actual point at hand, because I can very much make that comparison here. Mewtwo is among the legendaries that hasnt one shotted non legendaries, but we dont use that as an anti feat against Mewtwo. Same thing with Zeraora.

See every pokemon hunter in a movie where the mythical pokemon is the subject of the hunting

it
happens
every
single
time

Great. Which is why we dont use it as anything because its bullshit PIS and means nothing. Unless of course you aim to downgrade mythicals like Celebi, Victini, or Shaymin.

Hunter's mons are never shown as fodder compared to mystical, but they do are to major legendaries instead.

See above. And I love how you completely ducked the Ash and Pikachu point.

except they didn't run away when Pikachu showed up, they only did so when the group showed up, so no.

Which again, doesnt matter, when Pikachu is the only pokemon who offered any resistance against the hunters. The others did not.

Cuz low end legendaries are protrayed as only a peg above normal mons, even if we rate them as much higher.

Cool. Doesn't shut my argument down. If Zeraora is at bare minimum tier 6, then those High 7-A anti feats aren't legit and get thrown out. If you argue they're legit, than you cant argue for 6-B Zeraora.

It's one or the other.

EEEEEH, sure, gonna concede on Dia's being High 3-A, but that's not what matters for the profile as that's for a Wild one

For the last time, Zeraora in the anime is not Dias. It's not his Pokemon. He didnt train it. It's not a trained Pokemon. Get it through your head.

friendly reminder Ash trained his pokemons without fights several times over the source of the show and it is shown to give results

Yes when training the attacks of his pokemon or getting them to master a move they want to learn. Not jumping several levels of strength, let alone tiers of power.

And even then, claiming Dia and Zeraora did this is pure speculation of the highest order. They aren't partners, they literally only teamed up for a short time because they both have the common interest of stopping Guzzlord.

also that's complete and pure nonsense considering the events of the two episodes (and also just the fact they can Z-Move)

Professor Kukui used Tapu Koko's signature Z-Move against Ash in the Alola league and they literally only teamed up that one time. A Pokemon doesn't need to be your partner in order to use a Z-move with them.

heavily implied

It is not at all.

see stuff liek pikachu and monferno becoming much stronger by simply bonding, see several mons becoming stronger by just using their attacks.

See above for what I said on this already. And Legendaries are a whole different ballpark compared to normal pokemon.

Not sure what you even mean here ?

Yeah, much like most of your whole argument against Zeraora's tier, because using something so desperate as arguing Ash being able to tank Zeraora's attacks and not think for one second its an outlier, not some legitimate knock against Zeraora, makes it difficult for me to take this thread seriously.

considering pikachu still rumbles with normal pokemons, it would be pretty nonsensical.

But stomps them. Name me a single time in this timelime that this Pikachu struggles with normal pokemon. I have yet to see the Coco movie, but as far as I know, the only possible instnace is when Rekka used Pikachu to catch Eevee, and we all know Pikachu isn't going to try literally eviscerate it.

of course, the rampaging pokemon isn't going all-out, of course

The "rampaging" Pokemon whos sole priority in that movie was protecting other pokemon? Not blowing them to oblivion?

You sure repeat yourself a lot don't you ? this is like the third time in the same post you said that.

Yeah because maybe, just maybe, my statement has an actual point?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

But stomps them. Name me a single time in this timelime that this Pikachu struggles with normal pokemon. I have yet to see the Coco movie, but as far as I know, the only possible instnace is when Rekka used Pikachu to catch Eevee, and we all know Pikachu isn't going to try literally eviscerate it.

Aren't all the movies since Movie 20 are like in a different universe with a different continuity Ash?

 

[Arceus0x]

Aren't all the movies since Movie 20 are like in a different universe with a different continuity Ash?

they are

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

they are

Then if so, why is Pikachu from the Coco movie is used as an example to main series Pikachu? They clearly have different feats, and they had completely different journeys

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes it does, its confirmed here. The whole series is about the bond between trainer and Pokemon empowering them. This is why Mega Evolution, Z-moves, Dynamax are powerful, they bring out the true power of those bonds. It even gives Pokemon new abilities and resistances

Im...98% certain this is a flowery exaggeration of just saying People and Pokemon grow stronger as teams, and not meant to be taken literally as a pokemon getting some insane boost.

Things like Mega evolution and Z moves are

Aren't all the movies since Movie 20 are like in a different universe with a different continuity Ash?

Yeah. I choose you, Power of Us and the Coco movie are all explicitly following an alternate universe Ash and Pikachu, not the ones from the main anime.

So they have different tiering.