Beerus vs Superman(Pre-Crisis)

[The_real_cal_howard]

Screw it. Beerus handily takes this as Pre-Crisis Supes is only Multi-Galaxy at his peak. Not sure which speed feat is greater for either two though. Supes has his rating for being able to cross the universe in seconds. Beerus is apparently at around 3/4th's that of Whis who on his page can cross at least 5 galaxies in 35 minutes (it might be considered outdated by now, idk. *shrugs*). Maybe Supes has the speed advantage here, perhaps?
For abilties? Meh.

Superman has the speed advantage by a crazy amount. The difference from Supes to Beerus is the difference from say, Beerus to... idk, Gotenks? Krillin? Bottom line is that with BFR, Beerus won't be able to notice anything. W/out it, Beerus still can't hit him for anything, except for an omni wave.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Unless people want to go over how Beerus is going to even tag Superman, I don't feel comfortable adding this to his wins.

Well Superman won't see the universal shockwaves coming and they can cross the universe and even beyond in seconds, so I don't see him escaping those either way. So regardless of if he is faster he would imo be tagged by those.

Also worth noting to my knowledge pre-crisis speed feats of travel should not apply to his combat just like the post crisis version as both must pick up speed to reach max speeds.

Superman has to accelerate to stop a supernova.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119340/3167283-5013445114-super.jpg

Has to push himself "harder, faster" till he exceeds light speed, and eventually over pages breaks the bond of infinity with acceleration over large distance and time.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/134509/2769666-superman_is_ftl.jpg

Another reference to him picking up speed as he flies further.

Has to fly faster and faster over time to reach enough speed to send the villain back in time.

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images...vs-hst-vs-dragon-ball-z-vs-bleach-x-39850.jpg

So it is shown often that his travel speed =/= combat speed, which is consistent with the other incarnations of superman such as Post Crisis. So tbh it's questionable even if he does have a combat speed advantage to if that helps at all for the being able to tag him thing your concerned about.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

PC Supes is easily the most inconisistent Supes, just as Beerus is the most inconsistent DB antagonist. Supes could travel the universe in the same amount of time and leave it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And if you want to get a separation/tabber in Superman's speeds, by all means try. But as we've been over before, if it doesn't have a tabber, don't try to argue a difference.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

First of all, Beerus universal shockwaves aren't very impressive. Being hit with some of the force of the shockwave isn't going to phase Superman, as it's not like every part of it is Multi-Galaxy. He'll only be tanking a little bit of the force.

Second, Pre-Crisis Supes is massively inconsistent. We're going by his best feats.

Third, I'm genuinely incredibly tired of all this combat speed=/=travel speed bullshit being brought into DBZ debates, especially when characters such as Beerus don't even have very impressive combat speed showings, to begin with. Hell, all of Beerus' speed feats are based on travel feats. So if you want them to be separated that badly, then it's going to apply to guys like Beerus, as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One more thing:

First scan was taken out of context by you. Accelerating fast enough just means that he's picking up speed quicker, which imo doesn't make sense in this context. He clearly means moving. As in velocity instead of acceleration.

Second scan, Of course Supes is trying to push himself. He's trying to find his cousin. And an established FTL character dodging the Flash should disprove that he needs to accelerate.

3rd and 4th scan, because travelling though time is easy... I don't see any DBZ characters doing that under their own speed.

 

[SSJRyu1]

PC Supes is easily the most inconisistent Supes, just as Beerus is the most inconsistent DB antagonist. Supes could travel the universe in the same amount of time and leave it.

The shockwaves still won't likely be something he is expecting or notices, and they cross the universe and even out into other world, kai realm and so on in seconds at most, so I don't see him escaping them, he wouldn't even know what they are, possibly won't even notice them till he is hit.

Fair enough, I opened a content revision on it, but the point is still one of the reasons I consider Beerus the winner personally, although the shockwaves alone should do the trick.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

First of all, Beerus universal shockwaves aren't very impressive. Being hit with some of the force of the shockwave isn't going to phase Superman, as it's not like every part of it is Multi-Galaxy. He'll only be tanking a little bit of the force.
Second, Pre-Crisis Supes is massively inconsistent. We're going by his best feats.

Third, I'm genuinely incredibly tired of all this combat speed=/=travel speed bullshit being brought into DBZ debates, especially when characters such as Beerus don't even have very impressive combat speed showings, to begin with. Hell, all of Beerus' speed feats are based on travel feats. So if you want them to be separated that badly, then it's going to apply to guys like Beerus, as well.

@SSJRyu1 ^this

Also, Beerus still wont get it off before he's sealed off from the multiverse. Travel Speed is all that's needed.

 

[SSJRyu1]

First of all, Beerus universal shockwaves aren't very impressive. Being hit with some of the force of the shockwave isn't going to phase Superman, as it's not like every part of it is Multi-Galaxy. He'll only be tanking a little bit of the force.

Second, Pre-Crisis Supes is massively inconsistent. We're going by his best feats.

Third, I'm genuinely incredibly tired of all this combat speed=/=travel speed bullshit being brought into DBZ debates, especially when characters such as Beerus don't even have very impressive combat speed showings, to begin with. Hell, all of Beerus' speed feats are based on travel feats. So if you want them to be separated that badly, then it's going to apply to guys like Beerus, as well.

Sorry dude, I disagree on this, those shockwaves could destroy the universe and the other realms, superman is only multi galaxy at his peak, not multi galaxy+, so those shockwaves, even a portion should be able to knock him out.

Also travel speed for superman is clearly portrayed as taking time to accelerate as I showed, we have already separated Post Crisis superman in this way, and Pre-Crisis is portrayed the same as needing to accelerate to reach top speed.

As for DBZ characters, they have constantly been portrayed as having superior combat speed to travel speed all through the series like snake way, gotenks feat and such, and they have never been depicted as having to pick up speed like Superman in travel, they go from 0 to max almost instantly in speed, and do often battle while flying around planets and stuff.

Even Vados and Whis can perceive celestial bodies and are in control of their speed, and when meeting each other flying by, intercept each other. So realistically they have shown that they can react and perceive things at top travel speeds consistently in DBZ, and there combat is generally even faster than their travel, while Superman has proven he needs to accelerate to top travel speeds consistently.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sorry dude, I disagree on this, those shockwaves could destroy the universe and the other realms, superman is only multi galaxy at his peak, not multi galaxy+, so those shockwaves, even a portion should be able to knock him out.

Also travel speed for superman is clearly portrayed as taking time to accelerate as I showed, we have already separated Post Crisis superman in this way, and Pre-Crisis is portrayed the same as needing to accelerate to reach top speed.

As for DBZ characters, they have constantly been portrayed as having superior combat speed to travel speed all through the series like snake way, gotenks feat and such, and they have never been depicted as having to pick up speed like Superman in travel, they go from 0 to max almost instantly in speed, and do often battle while flying around planets and stuff.

Even Vados and Whis can perceive celestial bodies and are in control of their speed, and when meeting each other flying by, intercept each other. So realistically they have shown that they can react and perceive things at top travel speeds consistently in DBZ, and there combat is generally even faster than their travel, while Superman has proven he needs to accelerate to top travel speeds consistently.

Um, except not at all? Do you know why Superman is only 3-B for tanking part of the Big Bang? Because it was only PART of the Big Bang. Same with the shockwaves. Not to mention they didn't do anything but bust some far away stars and planets, at the beginning.

Accelerating to reach top speed=/=being slow, most of the time. Especially when no timeframe is given.

Except not. This is a totally false statement. We assume Beerus is faster than his travel speed because characters in DBZ were. Why? Well, because it'd always been that way. There's so little proof backing up Beerus fighting at anywhere near his travel speed that it's not even funny.

So can Silver Surfer. Guess who doesn't have MFTL+ combat speed? Silver Surfer.

 

[SSJRyu1]

One more thing:

First scan was taken out of context by you. Accelerating fast enough just means that he's picking up speed quicker, which imo doesn't make sense in this context. He clearly means moving. As in velocity instead of acceleration.

Second scan, Of course Supes is trying to push himself. He's trying to find his cousin. And an established FTL character dodging the Flash should disprove that he needs to accelerate.

3rd and 4th scan, because travelling though time is easy... I don't see any DBZ characters doing that under their own speed.

First scan he still was accelerating, meaning going faster over time in a critical situation, if he could go at max instantly he would have.

Second one he was already pushing hard as he could, again if he could go at max sped instantly he would have, but it took him time to reach that top speeds.

3 and 4 DBZ's not relevant to the feats, fact is he has to pick up speed over time to reach his top speeds.

He does not start out at maximum speed, he takes time, as I showed and Beerus will get off punches before he can travel across the universe with him even if he started at max speed.

Sorry dude, he isn't getting away from beerus superior strength and durability, along with the universal shockwaves imo, and that stance won't change.

 

[DontTalk]

Just as a little funfact:

Beerus shockwaves when calced would come out around 10^72 J

Supermans best durability feat when calced comes out at about 10^112 J

That is of course the highest superman feat, inconsistencys might apply.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Just as a little funfact:
Beerus shockwaves when calced would come out around 10^72 J

Supermans best durability feat when calced comes out at about 10^112 J

That is of course the highest superman feat, inconsistencys might apply.

actually, the energy to destroy the observable universe itself is over 10^92 Joules

and thats just observable

the actual one may be up to 10^23 times bigger

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Just as a little funfact:
Beerus shockwaves when calced would come out around 10^72 J

Supermans best durability feat when calced comes out at about 10^112 J

That is of course the highest superman feat, inconsistencys might apply.

also, fan's calc uses a map we do not use anymore

 

[SSJRyu1]

Um, except not at all? Do you know why Superman is only 3-B for tanking part of the Big Bang? Because it was only PART of the Big Bang. Same with the shockwaves. Not to mention they didn't do anything but bust some far away stars and planets, at the beginning.

Accelerating to reach top speed=/=being slow, most of the time. Especially when no timeframe is given.

Except not. This is a totally false statement. We assume Beerus is faster than his travel speed because characters in DBZ were. Why? Well, because it'd always been that way. There's so little proof backing up Beerus fighting at anywhere near his travel speed that it's not even funny.

So can Silver Surfer. Guess who doesn't have MFTL+ combat speed? Silver Surfer.

Yet the big bang was tearing him apart and putting him in extreme pain, so clearly if he could barely survive being in that, universal shockwaves would do at least as much, and this was casual Beerus, and they extended beyond just the universe and to other world and kaioshin realm. So I still think the shockwaves will be to much for him alone.

I agree it does not make him slow, but it does mean he can't use his top speed instantly, or as combat speed.

Thing is Beerus can fly almost as fast as Whis, who I talked about having shown being able to react at those speeds, and we have seen even in flight things like Beerus and Goku flying around the planet exchanging blows, and all through the series this kind of relationship in speed has been shown so the past showings of combat speed > travel speed alone is not enough proof, but it makes it more likely that is the case with Beerus just like every other character, and taking all of it into consideration with beerus and Goku fighting traveling around above the planet, whis and vados intercepting each other, there are multiple things that imply his combat speed should be equal or better than travel speed, and nothing to suggest otherwise.

Surfer has never shown to have equal combat and travel speed though, and tom Brevoort has even stated that in marvel most of the time combat speed =/= travel speed, so surfer really is not implied to have equal combat speed, the opposite in fact.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yet the big bang was tearing him apart and putting him in extreme pain, so clearly if he could barely survive being in that, universal shockwaves would do at least as much, and this was casual Beerus, and they extended beyond just the universe and to other world and kaioshin realm. So I still think the shockwaves will be to much for him alone.

I agree it does not make him slow, but it does mean he can't use his top speed instantly, or as combat speed.

Thing is Beerus can fly almost as fast as Whis, who I talked about having shown being able to react at those speeds, and we have seen even in flight things like Beerus and Goku flying around the planet exchanging blows, and all through the series this kind of relationship in speed has been shown so the past showings of combat speed > travel speed alone is not enough proof, but it makes it more likely that is the case with Beerus just like every other character, and taking all of it into consideration with beerus and Goku fighting traveling around above the planet, whis and vados intercepting each other, there are multiple things that imply his combat speed should be equal or better than travel speed, and nothing to suggest otherwise.

Surfer has never shown to have equal combat and travel speed though, and tom Brevoort has even stated that in marvel most of the time combat speed =/= travel speed, so surfer really is not implied to have equal combat speed, the opposite in fact.

That's not how this works. The energy he would have had to overcome there was a significant amount greater than the energy that would be produced by Beerus shockwaves, though this really doesn't even matter because the feat itself basically shows a failure to grasp how physics work and makes it difficult to quantify with 100% certainty. Not to mention that we have no idea how big the DBU is (aside from having countless galaxies), so "going beyond it" really doesn't mean much.

It's not being argued that he could. The problem is, as I said before, there is no timeframe for how long it takes to reach his top speed.

Odin fought across the universe while exchanging blows. This still does not give him MFTL+ combat speed, all the time. Intercepting each other is meaningless. You (or pretty much anyone) have yet to show 100% solid proof that DBS combat speed is => travel speed, which is why it irks me when people state it as fact.

Except he has. The reason he's not MFTL+ is because Brevoort said so, not because he lacks any feats whatsoever. Also, Brevoort's words show that fiction, not just Marvel, isn't always consistent, which is something that DBZ sure as hell isn't exempt from.

 

[DontTalk]

actually, the energy to destroy the observable universe itself is over 10^92 Joules

and thats just observable

the actual one may be up to 10^23 times bigger

Not talking about if he actually destroys the universe, but just that the portrait shock waves which only destroy planets at the border of the, as far as I was told, finite dragonball universe were much less impressive.

The actual universe is most likely infinite so meh to the 10^23 estimation for finite universes btw.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

actually, the energy to destroy the observable universe itself is over 10^92 Joules

and thats just observable

the actual one may be up to 10^23 times bigger

Not talking about if he actually destroys the universe, but just that the portrait shock waves which only destroy planets at the border of the, as far as I was told, finite dragonball universe were much less impressive.
The actual universe is most likely infinite so meh to the 10^23 estimation for finite universes btw.

also, the map is inaccurate and we dont use it

literally shows king yemma's castle, its sun and the snake way comparable to the universe

also, if the universe is confirmed to be infinite then wudnt High 3-A be merged with 3-A? (as in iff it were fully confirmed)

 

[Promestein]

... You know, like all threads between high-level dragon ball characters and Superman, I don't think this thread is going to go anytime meaningful anywhere soon.

 

[LordAizenSama]

^this, so much. It may be better just to close it and move on.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

closing seems to be the only end for now

 

[SSJRyu1]

Just as a little funfact:

Beerus shockwaves when calced would come out around 10^72 J

Supermans best durability feat when calced comes out at about 10^112 J

That is of course the highest superman feat, inconsistencys might apply.

Ehh, I don't see how that calc worked. I think the Planck temperature and Planck energy only applies to the big bang when it is tiny singular point if I'm not mistaken, not when it had expanded, so by the time it was a meter in diameter, and especially when it was on superman, those values would no longer apply. That after all is more mass energy than is in the observable universe so the numbers don't seem to make sense to me.

Also what TLTB1 said.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Tribunal

Likely, not confirmed. There's also the fact that most universal feats in fiction don't remotely require infinite energy.

@Prom

JFC isn't that the truth.

 

[SSJRyu1]

That's not how this works. The energy he would have had to overcome there was a significant amount greater than the energy that would be produced by Beerus shockwaves, though this really doesn't even matter because the feat itself basically shows a failure to grasp how physics work and makes it difficult to quantify with 100% certainty. Not to mention that we have no idea how big the DBU is (aside from having countless galaxies), so "going beyond it" really doesn't mean much.

It's not being argued that he could. The problem is, as I said before, there is no timeframe for how long it takes to reach his top speed.

Odin fought across the universe while exchanging blows. This still does not give him MFTL+ combat speed, all the time. Intercepting each other is meaningless. You (or pretty much anyone) have yet to show 100% solid proof that DBS combat speed is => travel speed, which is why it irks me when people state it as fact.

Except he has. The reason he's not MFTL+ is because Brevoort said so, not because he lacks any feats whatsoever. Also, Brevoort's words show that fiction, not just Marvel, isn't always consistent, which is something that DBZ sure as hell isn't exempt from.

Well the shockwaves were beyond the DBU, and there being countless galaxies we would use our own universal values unless otherwise stated to my knowledge. So I still think universal shockwaves will be enough to stop him in his tracks.

I agree, but that means we can't assume he blitzes Beerus if we can't give him the travel speed as combat speed. Most people here are arguing he blitzes as his advantage, although glad to see you are not.

Well like I said, they have multiple reasons to think it is, they fight while traveling, they always seem to be able to go at max speed instantly in travel, they can intercept each other in travel, and all through the past the combat speed feats have been superior to travel speed ones. So while one of those things is not sufficient proof, taking all of them into consideration I think it is clear that they can battle at or above their travel speed.

I do agree Brevoort does make a good point, but there are like 4 reasons that would logically imply they can fight at travel speeds in DBZ, so in that case I think there is much more evidence they can than for they can't.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well the shockwaves were beyond the DBU, and there being countless galaxies we would use our own universal values unless otherwise stated to my knowledge. So I still think universal shockwaves will be enough to stop him in his tracks.

I agree, but that means we can't assume he blitzes Beerus if we can't give him the travel speed as combat speed. Most people here are arguing he blitzes as his advantage, although glad to see you are not.

Well like I said, they have multiple reasons to think it is, they fight while traveling, they always seem to be able to go at max speed instantly in travel, they can intercept each other in travel, and all through the past the combat speed feats have been superior to travel speed ones. So while one of those things is not sufficient proof, taking all of them into consideration I think it is clear that they can battle at or above their travel speed.

I do agree Brevoort does make a good point, but there are like 4 reasons that would logically imply they can fight at travel speeds in DBZ, so in that case I think there is much more evidence they can than for they can't.

Yes, but that's the problem. Shockwaves which would tear apart our own observable universe are <<< what Superman tanked.

I wouldn't say he blitzes. Just that his speed allows him to dodge, which a lot of people aren't accounting for.

Once again, I want to see these so-called combat speed feats, because so far nothing has been presented which isn't written off as travel speed in other media. Dragon Ball should not get a free pass on this.

 

[Naitez]

I wouldn't say he blitzes. Just that his speed allows him to dodge, which a lot of people aren't accounting for.

That's the thing I keep wondering about. This is why the Seiya's matchup with Wally West is inconclusive because Wally can just outrun and dodge all of Seiya's attacks and come back in no time. Why can't the same apply to Superman?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's the thing I keep wondering about. This is why the Seiya's matchup with Wally West is inconclusive because Wally can just outrun and dodge all of Seiya's attacks and come back in no time. Why can't the same apply to Superman?

I don't see a reason why it couldn't.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, can someone please inform me why Countdown Prime is under Beerus' victories if a match against a slower, less powerful foe is currently heading towards inconclusive?

 

[Naitez]

I forgot why. Something about better feats of strength from Beerus? Doesn't explain durability since Prime can just blitz him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I forgot why. Something about better feats of strength from Beerus? Doesn't explain durability since Prime can just blitz him.

Wait what? Countdown Prime survived at the epicenter of an event that wiped out the entire universe and was only KO'd. This was, as Monarch pointed out, also at a point in time when his Guardian Amp was fading and his power was shrinking.

Beerus has yet to have a legit universal feat.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So should we just take out the results from Beerus and Primes pages then or what? Cause i can do that this instnatly...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So should we just take out the results from Beerus and Primes pages then or what? Cause i can do that this instnatly...

Considering this thread is becoming inconclusive, I doubt it's legit, and would prefer if it was removed until Beerus speed disadvantage is actually addressed or he gets an actual universal feat.

 

[Promestein]

Can I just close this, considering this isn't going to go anywhere?

 

[Naitez]

People are saying that Beerus can casually destroy universes based on statements from other characters, which led to people assuming he can also causally survive universal attacks. Prime, on the other hand, was knocked out by the universal explosion, which people are claiming is a chain reaction despite Prime being very close to the source of of all that energy causing that chain reaction.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yes, but that's the problem. Shockwaves which would tear apart our own observable universe are <<< what Superman tanked.

I wouldn't say he blitzes. Just that his speed allows him to dodge, which a lot of people aren't accounting for.

Once again, I want to see these so-called combat speed feats, because so far nothing has been presented which isn't written off as travel speed in other media. Dragon Ball should not get a free pass on this.

I don't follow how, the DBU should be considered the same size as ours, so they should be equal to it at least, maybe more as they are going into other realms as well and going to destroy them to.

I can agree that currently he should be able to dodge as combat speed values are hard to determine but both should be mftl+, but people here are saying superman blitzes Beerus and can bfr him before he can act, which as you and I agree is not proven Sueprman can blitz in combat. In fact all things even Beerus has superior martial arts by far so he would outclass him in hand to hand.

Things like piccolo's moon beam, being way faster than Goku's snake way travel speed, or even Buuhan taking time to fly to Goku and Vegeta. That kind of stuff is examples of travel speed showings being lower than combat speed ones.

Also we see Goku and Beerus fight all around the outside of the earth, and Kid buu and Goku fight across kaioshin planet, and they are often fighting each other in flight and travel in many instances.

So we have seen them fight in travel and they have consistently been faster in combat than travel, and we know that even whis and vados can react to each other and intercept each other in travel, and Beerus can move at a similar speed, and they have never shown to have to accelerate or anything special to reach top speeds. So logically they can perceive and react to things at travel speeds, and they can fight during travel and even have consistently had better combat speed feats than travel speed feats throughout the series, so that is why I would consider the two speed values at least equal.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So should we just take out the results from Beerus and Primes pages then or what? Cause i can do that this instnatly...

Considering this thread is becoming inconclusive, I doubt it's legit, and would prefer if it was removed until Beerus speed disadvantage is actually addressed or he gets an actual universal feat.

Works fine with me. I actually don't give a s*** if people start bitching that we took his victory out.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Natse

That...makes no sense.

@SSJRyu1

The problem is this entire argument hinges on the fact that characters in DBZ have always attacked faster than they've travelled. This is now completely the opposite for Super, so this unspoken assumption is no longer the same, and doesn't still hold water simply because "that's the way it's always been".

@Prom

Please do.