Beerus and Champa Upgrade

[Pasacon]

one of the reasons why Zeno is Tier 2 is because Beerus states that he could destroy all 12 Universes in an instant right? Also, are we assuming each Universe has its own Space Time Continuum? Cause Zeno wouldn't be 2-C if all Universes shared the same Time Space, the point I'm getting at is, remember when Super his around episode 30? Whis AND Vados state that Beerus and Champa would destroy both Universe 6 and 7 if they continued to fight, therefore destroying 2 Universes that don't share the same time and space, or do they considering their twin universes? Cause I'm pretty sure 2 3-A characters could NOT generate enough power to destroy 2 Universes with different space time continuums

 

[Ryukama]

Zen'o is not Tier 2 due to the 12 universes statement. He's Tier 2 because Whis said Zen'o could wipe out all of existence. And those time rings now confirm that there are multiple timelines. We do not know as of yet whether or not the 12 main universes share the same space-time, or if Beerus/Champa can destroy time as well. Hence they will stay as they are until further notice.

 

[Pasacon]

Zen'o is not Tier 2 due to the 12 universes statement. He's Tier 2 because Whis said Zen'o could wipe out all of existence. And those time rings now confirm that there are multiple timelines. We do not know as of yet whether or not the 12 main universes share the same space-time, or if Beerus/Champa can destroy time as well. Hence they will stay as they are until further notice.

e.e

 

[Ryukama]

Just because that is cited on his profile does not mean that is the reason why Zen'o is Tier 2. The 12 universes thing was only recently added for some reason. Once again it's due to Zen'o being able to destroy all of existence.

And even if the 12 universe thing was why Zen'o is Tier 2, we still have no proof that Beerus and Champa can destroy time as well, hence they will still stay where they are until DBS further reveals more info.

 

[Pasacon]

Just because that is cited on his profile does not mean that is the reason why Zen'o is Tier 2. The 12 universes thing was only recently added for some reason. Once again it's due to Zen'o being able to destroy all of existence.
And even if the 12 universe thing was why Zen'o is Tier 2, we still have no proof that Beerus and Champa can destroy time as well, hence they will still stay where they are until DBS further reveals more info.

man really? you ignore what says the wiki?

also according a this Guy Destroy 2 Universes completely separate from each other, is a feat 2-C


e.e

 

[Ryukama]

Can you please not be so condescending towards me. I was there when the Zen'o's profile was made. And saw the admin add the 12 universe part long after he recieved his Tier 2 for the existence statement. I know what I am talking about.

I am "ignoring what the profile says" because that is not relevant to his Tier 2 rating. Plus you are completely misinterpreting what Cal said. He means destroying 2 universes is a Tier 2 feat if they have separate space-times. This has not yet been proven in DBS, and they will not get an upgrade unless that gets proven.

 

[CuriousWatcher]

IIRC, they weren't given 2-C because it wasn't clear if the battle between Beerus and Champa would one-shot both universes at once (2-C feat if different space-time continuum) or if it would be over time/one then moving to the other.

 

[Antvasima]

I will modify Zen'o's profile, to avoid future misunderstandings.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ant Thank you very much.

@Curious Yes. Feats can also have strictly 3-D AP yet 4-D range. Like that outlier when Hulk made an earthquake on infinite earths throughout the multiverse, yet did nothing to time itself.

For this upgrade. We need proof that the 12 universes have separate space times. And that Beerus and Champa can destroy time itself and not just cross over time barriers. Neither of which have yet been evidenced in the series. If we are shown this, we will indeed upgrade them. But right now it has to stay as is.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[Pasacon]

Such assumption can't be taken seriously. Zen'o destroyed 6 universes very long time ago and now only exist 12 universes. If they were to put in the same space time continuum, destroy space time of those 6 universes would affect other universes as well, but that's not the case.

After Gowasu showed Whis and Beerus the time rings in universe 10, he asked why the problem in universe 7 had any sort of relation to universe 10, this implies that Timelines in universe 7 are completely different from the ones in universe 10 and they have absolute no connection to each other except for Goku Black and Zamasu both have similar Ki.

 

[Ryukama]

Such assumption can't be taken seriously. Zen'o destroyed 6 universes very long time ago and now only exist 12 universes. If they were to put in the same space time continuum, destroy space time of those 6 universes would affect other universes as well, but that's not the case.

After Gowasu showed Whis and Beerus the time rings in universe 10, he asked why the problem in universe 7 had any sort of relation to universe 10, this implies that Timelines in universe 7 are completely different from the ones in universe 10 and they have absolute no connection to each other except for Goku Black and Zamasu both have similar Ki.

Once again. All we know is that DBS's cosmology has alternate timelines. We do not know yet if the 12/18 main universes have separate space-times or not. Also I am pretty sure Beerus was asking why Universe 10 should care about a dilemma in Universe 7. That does not prove that the two have separate space-times.

The staff is not being closeminded. These two are sure to get upgraded if we get sufficient proof of what you are suggesting. But we don't right now. So we have to stick with what the profiles currently have as their stats.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Seeing as how characters fly between universes and how the U6 tournament was held in "Neutral Space" between the universes, I always assumed that they shared space, and by extension time. Now at first I thought this might only have been a thing for twin universes (just to be fair), but since it was possible to fly to universe 10 as well, I assume that all 12 share the same space and time. But I'm assuming that the tournament being held in "neutral space" between U6 and U7 isn't enough evidence to confirm that they share space-time.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Jo-Smooth seems to make sense.

 

[Antoniofer]

Jo-Smooth have right, considering that take a time to Whis/Vados to travel between universes or to a neutral land would mean that all the universes share the same 3-D space; futhermore, it take a time to reach the Zen'o's palace, so that's means that is in the same 3-D space.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Whis can travel to different space time continuums and they are certainly not connected.

Whis can fly to other world where as other have to teleport because its essentially another separate universe.

In Zeno's palace we see separate orbs containing each universe so tell me if the orbs aren't connected to one another why would the space time continuum?

We don't upgrade Piccolo and U6 fighter to 3-B because that is a big inconsistency but saying space time continuums are shared would do the same thing.

• Why does are the super dragon balls only spread out throughout the U6 and 7 part of the Universe?
• Why didn't anyone beside U6 and 7 see Super Shenlong or know or know about him.
• Beerus and Goku's clash was felt all throughout the "universe" but why didn't any other Gods feel it since the live in the same space time continuum?

These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head but I assure you if I rewatch the series with this same mentality of they share the space time continuum I can find much more.

 

[LazyHunter]

I'm confused, didn't Zamasu/Black's arc answer the Universe/timeline debate? Besides what Jo-Smooth said, there was a Zamasu in future Trunks' timeline, so there was a Universe 10 in future Trunks' timeline. And since Black and Zamasu talked about killing all other gods, the timeline also has the other Universes and their gods. So each timeline has its 12 Universes.

 

[Antvasima]

@RadicalMrR Okay. Never mind then.

@LazyHunter Yes. That is correct, but we do not know how many timelines there are.

 

[Antoniofer]

The orbs in the place could be just a representation of the universes, is unknown if has anything to do with they speculated own time; but yeah, there are too many questions about if share or not the same 3-D space, like there's a distance between universes, or the time that Whis and co traveled to the U10 Kaishin realm when is supposed to exist in a pocket universe or something (however is unknow if is only accesible through the U10).

 

[RadicalMrR]

Antonio they are not just a representative, they exist in universe and are all located in Zeno's palace.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What proves that? Is their any actual evidence that implies the orbs contain the universes and that they just dont represent them?

 

[Antoniofer]

Not sure if those orbs are actually the entire universes, that would imply that anyone that would come to the palace would appears from the orb (could not sound that farfetched, but since there's no proofs...); there's few proofs to say that the universes share the same space, but there's even less proofs to say that they doesn't. The next manga chapter air soon, maybe there explain further.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Here is the image that @Radical said:

 

[RadicalMrR]

@Starkiller that is not what I'm talking about at all


This is not a representation theses are universes, no one is explaining anything, we aren't in someone's mind, none of that.

If we say they are connected we make countless plot holes, this is the same type of logic that would make Piccolo and everyone at U6 tournament become at least 3-B.

And for the topic at hand no Beerus and Champa shouldn't be in tier 2.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Oh okay, @Radical.

 

[Ryukama]

I hate to sound like a downplayer or "DB hater" or whatever, but it seems like those balls are much more likely to be decorations or replicas of universes akin to a world globe than actual universes.

I mean if those were universes, they'd be incredibly tiny comparing Goku, Whis and Kaioshin to them in that pic.

Or look at those universes next to Zenō's building. They are somewhat comparable in size.

And now look at Goku and the rest standing directly underneath this building and next to one of the universe pillars. If that pillar or the building was truly the size of universes, then Goku and the rest would've been completely microscopic right here.

And I am pretty sure if somehow these characters grew to be cosmic sized (with that being why they can appear visible next to universe sized objects) and were currently residing in space outside of conventional 3-D matter, that definitely would've gotten mentioned some time in that scene. But nothing of the sort was remotely brought up.

So I'm sorry, but I do not believe those things on Zen'ō's palace are actual universes.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with you until we have more evidence on the Zeno thing.

Though like I said, if we say they are connected that only causes more problems for the series making plothols and inconsistencies all over the place, and that is the same reason Piccolo isn't 3-B.

 

[Antoniofer]

Why is the connection of the universes related to Piccolo's AP? He never threatered to destroy something as big as the universes. Also, I doubt than that will make DBS more inconsistence what currently is...

@Ryukama, don't worry, you don't downplay if is just fan assumption

 

[RadicalMrR]

The only reason everyone in the U6 tournament isn't 3-B is because that would cause a bunch of plot holes and inconsistencies same thing here.

For example why would Hit want thisso bad if the universes were connected and he could travel freely throught them?

Edit:"Please do not attempt to upgrade characters to 3-B, by scaling from base Goku being equal to his SSG form. This topic has been discussed repeatedly, and the verdict will always remain the same.

Also, given that Piccolo was able to hold his own against Frost, who was almost on par with SS1 Goku, and base Gohan was able to match Piccolo, this would lead to several outlandish inconsistencies, like both of them being automatically elevated to this level, despite not advancing significantly from their DBZ statistics.

While the way that we currently scale the characters is not perfect, it is the best solution to the illogical inconsistencies that DBS has given us."

Same case here, we say there connected we only get more plot holes and inconsistencies.

 

[Antoniofer]

Universes still being enormeous, even for someone like Hit, it would take some minutes to travel from one planet to another; with that cube anyone could cross a universe in matter of hours. Also, don't think that U6-7 fighters are that strong (besides Hit, Vegeta and Goku), Buu could have defeated Frost, the saiyan one (forget his name) and Botamo, not sure about Mageta, and Buu is a good reference considering that he doesn't train.

 

[Ryukama]

@Radical to play Devil's Advocate, even if Hit could travel to different universes, that doesn't mean he wouldn't want something that could take him there quicker and more efficiently. Especially if he's supposed to be a hitman with different locations to be expected to go to in certain times. Like anyone who'd want to get to work with a car even if they could walk or take a bike there.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Again this is 1 out of literally dozens(bare minimum by the way) of stuff we would have to make a almost baseless speculation about just so that we can say they are connected.

 

[Ryukama]

Well I'm not saying whether or not I think the universes are connected. But I am saying that I believe assuming those balls on Zen'ō's palace are actual universes or the Hit thing aren't sufficient points to prove that they are separate.

 

[RadicalMrR]

If you guys want to continue the discussion lets do so here.

I think this thread should be closed since its we decided they aren't getting upgraded.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Frost is way more powerful than Buu.

 

[Sparky_"Dante"_Marky1234]

Shouldn't the universes have seperate space-times?

Whis had to warp to get to Universe 10, he couldn't simply travel there. If they had the same space-time, he could have simply flown there.

 

[Antvasima]

I will close this thread then.