BB 8D Removal

[Diinou_HotHead]

It's fine. We're just at disagreement about where does the Labyrinth end.

But this topic aside, now we have Avalon's 6D vs the Wiki's standards

Since it can block attacks, it qualifies. (Even though I feel kinda iffy, so I think I'll wait for some more inputs)

 

[Paul_Frank]

So here is my take on the wall

It's an actual 8d wall but this doesn't make thr moon cell itself 8d

The mooncell is able to simulate anything it had observed and anything within the records, which means that somewhere along the lines it observed an 8d object/wall that it based it's own wall on

This doesn't mean the actual computer is 8d phsycally which kinda wouldn't make sense anyway considering it's actual composition which is a bunch of crystals but then again this is Fate so maybe the computer is 8d

The moon cell's 8d wall is actually 8d and comes from it using higher dimensional manip which is where BB would later get her own from.

This would also address the issue of lower d beings supposedly threatening the mooncell. If the thing isn't phsycally 8d of course it can be harmed by non 8d things

 

[GLHF22]

Isnt phsycally 8D, yet it produce 8D wall and of course you need atleast 8D power to penetrate 8D wall and thats Will makes her 1C, thats the problem

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's never stated that BB used brute force to break the wall though

There are numerous ways she could have done it without becoming physically 1-C such as you know, higher dimensional manip which as seen with the authority, doesn't need you to be 1-C to have 8d higher dimensional manip

 

[GLHF22]

Then tell US how and post the scan

 

[Paul_Frank]

Scans of what? Her not growing to 1-C and punching the wall down like you seem to think would be required?

The proof is kinda in the scan that's already used in the op. BB admits breaking through it would be tough, which wouldn't be the case if she was already 1-C so her being phsycally 8d by the point of that message is out. BB growing to 1-C then breaking the wall is also not possible since BB had no way to hop up 4 dimensional levels even with self mod EX afaik

That leaves BB using the higher D manip she gained from the mooncell ot any of her other hax to break down the wall which is the most logical way she could have done it and takes the least assumptions out of the possibilities afaik

 

[GLHF22]

So you want to say she have 1C hax? There is no way people in lower Dimension to even look or see a 8D wall

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is fiction. Normally, there's no way for people to see a "spirit" or "ghost" correct??? But people see souls anyways???


Same goes for higher Dimensional beings.

Normally seeing such things count as "enhanced senses" right???

 

[Paul_Frank]

I want to say she has 8d higher dimensional manip like This guy who doesn't have 1-C anywhere

While it's true a lower d person wouldn't be able to see a higher D wall this is fate BB by this point has the information from the mooncell and would know about the wall like that either way

 

[GLHF22]

Yep so thats why her 8D is not 1C, if we go by our tiering system to interact with 8 D you also need 8D power and BB already interact with it , then she should physically 8D

 

[Paul_Frank]

No her 8d isn't 1C because she doesn't scale phsycally, no one does its 8d higher dimensional manip which doesn't need to get tiered

Interacting with an 8d wall by using hax is not grounds for you physically being 1C or 8d it just scales whatever you used which in this case the path of least assumptions leads us to say she used her higher D manip

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I remember somebody stating she's making a drill to get past it. Plus she started breaking the wall by the beginning of Chapter 6 (When introducing Melt) and succesfully broke it like a millisecond after you beat her (how long was that anyway?)

So yeah, more like a prep feat here.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

She probably borrowed Simon's drill-

 

[GLHF22]

Hold on. Let me summarize the points and the issues here. Anything that is in quotation marks, you can copy and paste.

"The Moon Cell is a supercomputer whose functions has evolved over time as it has recorded all the info from the observed universe then use that data to create a finite 4D multiverse.


"The proof of this is in this link: https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com//?s=Higher+dimensional+&search=Go

"Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you're able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that's the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There's no past or future. It's the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell's Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She's obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don't know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of "this present moment." …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey "this present moment" even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn't make it in time."


This is pretty obvious that is talking about 4 dimensional space/space time dimensions especially it has been explored in theoretical physics. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

"In this case, 'many dimensions' is a direct reference to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretatio quantum mechanics.


Yes, this has been used in multiverse theories over the years since this is exactly why I don't see why this is 1C in the first place.

At the very least, it will be range from 2C to 2B as there is little to no mentions of anything higher than 4D as 3 dimensional space is referring to our own space.


"Time after all is normally considered separate from space."

"Space is 3 dimensional after all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space "


"In any case, I not convinced by that interpretation it being actual 1C given the amount of theories involving multiverse theories and other theories as well."

"As far as I recall, Ultima Reality may or may not likely do a revision for how we treated dimensional tiering and some others. The details are of course unknown given the time need for that.

"Avalon is a complete different story since it will not scale to the Moon Cell nor scale to any other series since it is a defensive noble phantasm that Saber doesn't normally use in combat."

since he is banned for some reason so i post his argument here to let him argue with you

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I remember somebody stating she's making a drill to get past it. Plus she started breaking the wall by the beginning of Chapter 6 (When introducing Melt) and succesfully broke it like a millisecond after you beat her (how long was that anyway?)
So yeah, more like a prep feat here.

Time Travel shenangins

" She can communicate with her past selves . She is already in the past, and future. This was achieved by placing her self in the concept of "infinite time" (aka past, present, and future) thus she changed the entire history of the far side of the moon with that.

This is how she was able to absorb the Mooncell's core in both 0.00001 seconds, and 69 days before, aka "69 days ago." Her past self reached the core 0.00001 seconds ago, but because another version of her already reached the core 1st she using her authority she changed that outcone to happen 69 days ago."

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

(walls of texts)

And that. The fate manip from Post-Mooncell BB also helps.

 

[GLHF22]

If she can really change history or timeline and exist in past present and future, By Judging her personality its weird if she is not change the entire history on earth and say "*** you im the devil here" to Goetia

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

By Judging her personality its weird if she is not change the entire hustory on earth and say "*** you im the devil here" to Goetia

Her Post-Mooncell personality did say something like that, but decided it was inefficient.

And yeah, the moment the plot reached the point of "a few remaining humans attempt to stop the eradicator of humanity who just succeeded in their plan" I realized the recycle was real.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Well we shouldn't take the words of a translator for the series as law, that would be an Appeal to Authority.

I've highlighted the cosmological problems with treating the Moon Cell as containing literal 8D space above.

If the argument is changed to "the dimensions are simulated so it still works" that is insufficient as well. If the dimensions aren't real within the setting, they don't count.

The Moon Cell is most consistently regarded as 4D according to our standards.

What else do we need to do to finish this thread?

 

[Paul_Frank]

What are the supposed cosmological problems with the moon cell's 8D space actually being 8D and what is the evidence against it being 8D

All I've seen is that supposedly lower dimensional beings can threaten it which doesn't disprove it being 8D at all considering the two lower d beings who were threats to it are, Velber who was made by the same people who made the mooncell and BB who is an AI made by the mooncell who was only a threat to it through all her bs prep and fusing with it

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

1. One mention is enough due to a considerable mention of higher dimensions throughout the Fate, including a very good description of mechanics of higher dimensionality.

2. Velber was created by the same beings that created the Moon Cell, so even if Velber was a threat to the Moon Cell, it is fine. It doesn't create a contradiction.

3. With the third point you have just explained why we don't have 1-C BB on this page. It doesn't affect the 8D thing in Nasuverse setting.

4. You are basing that claim on the lack of description for 8D.

5. Refer to point number 3.

How hard is to look at the feat without looking through Vs battles wiki prism? It's beyond me.

 

[Paul_Frank]

>if the dimensions aren't real within the setting they dont count

See that's blatantly incorrect and ignoring how the mooncell actually works

The mooncell simulates anything it has recorded since its creation which is why the serial phantasm and the far side of the mooncell exist. Its via the mooncell observing those things within the rest of the verse. The whole "its just a simulation" argument is weak since those simulations are just as real as the rest of the things in the verse and are never once implied to be fake simulations of things, especially things within extra and CCC since those take place entirely within the mooncell.

Hell the mooncell even has the ability to grant wishes through a simulated root and holy grail and those wishes actually happen. It also has the ability to create literal infinite spaces so the whole "it's just a simulation" argument doesn't work

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I was addressing them as simulations because they have been called simulations by @SwagPack and @Paul Frank in this thread. If you are done with that and want to settle on trying to prove them to be real, my earlier points stand against that.

I very specifically stated in my earlier comment that the cosmological problems with the Moon Cell being treated as 8D contradicts how it interacts when put against something like Avalon which has still yet to be addressed. Briefly, here are the issues that are elaborated upon above already.

1. In order for the Moon Cell to be an 8D structure, it would need to exist infinitely across other spatial/temporal dimensions below it. This is impossible because the Moon Cell does not contain an infinite 4D space. Quantum Time Locks ensure that there are not an infinite number of universes.

2. Avalon, which I've accepted at 6D for the sake of the argument, has the ability to block even the Second Magic. The Second Magic specifically can draw power from an infinite number of universes across the Fate and Tsukihime worlds. From that perspective, it's able to do more than the Moon Cell which only contains a finite number of universes. A 6D device being superior to an 8D device doesn't make sense.

3. The Moon Cell does not exist throughout the Nasuverse, only in specific Fate/Extra related universes. Thus it doesn't exist on an infinite 4D scale and is problematic when trying to scale it to 8D.

One mention is not good enough to take a face value when this mention is completely different than Avalon who's descriptions make sense and follow the tiering system well. They are fundamentally different based on how their lore describes them working and how it is interpreted with the wiki's tiering system in mind.

In case you aren't aware, this profile is on VS Battles Wiki which means that it needs to conform to what the wiki demands is necessary to support whatever tier is given to the character. Now while I understand that the tiering system may be getting revised, as it stands now accepting this literally makes no sense.

 

[Paul_Frank]

1. The mooncell isn't 8D it can create 8d spaces but the actual computer itself is not 8D, having 8D higher dimensional manip doesn't make you 1-C unless you want to say The Hist should be physically high 1-C because it has 16D higher dimensional and math manip. Quantum time locks don't actually ensure there aren't an infinite amount of universes, it ensures that certain events will always happen. I'm pretty sure there are still infinite universes.

2. The second magic can draw power from parallel universes yes but there aren't more than there are within the mooncell. In fact both the mooncell and The World use the same method for culling timelines and there are an equal amount in both, im not sure why you think the mooncell has less

3. Correct the mooncell doesn't exist within the Tsukihime world and thats about the only world we can rule out the mooncell existing in. Existing just within Fate could still give have jt exist on an infinite 4d scale since there are universes for every possibility of which there are infinite within the Fate verse. Either way thats not necessary because again, no one claims the physical computer is 8D.

The one mention isn't completely different though, it literally was the only thing that gave BB much trouble getting through. They aren't at all fundamentally different like you're claiming. Avalon blocks out all interference under the 6th dimension while the wall literally just blocked BB's attempts to get through.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

don't mind me just bumping this

 

[Lancer45Man]

Well if the Mooncell is 8D as in the sense that it can manipulate an 8D structure and place an 8D Law over a 1-C range as well as exist Transcendental to infinite universes, it would be outright 1-C and by extension BB should be 1-C too.

If it's just 8D for the sake of displaying "8D" stuffs that aren't really 8 Dimensional or 1-C via feats or statements, then the 8D has no value and should be removed or changed to what Galaxian proposed.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Not how it works.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Alright so i was reviewing a thread on "Higher Dimensional Hax/Resistance BB" and this is what i got out of it. - Bare with me this will be a long post.


"And even if they were legit scientific analysis accepted that was peer reviewed and professionally published, that doesn't mean anything. Higher-Dimensions in fiction can be whatever the author of the piece wants them to be.

However, I will allow limited Higher-Dimensional Manipulation for her. Yes but to the effect that it is really no functionally different than standard Spatial Manipulation. " - Matthew Schroeder [1] [2]

"Higher Dimensional Mind is almost unanimous. Just Matt disagrees. For now, all I am arguing for is a higher dimensional mind." - Monarch Laciel
[3] [4]

"It's just hax. In the same way HDM's The Authority is only 7-A despite his 8-D hax and Doom is only tier 2 with Galactus and a Cosmic Cube's powers, yet has High 1-Btechnology." - Kepekley23
[5]

"Kal and J-Man both said 4D, Matt doesn't agree with 8D

I'm still fine with Higher Dimensional Manipulation (merged with the Moon Cell, which can create 8D spaces), but others believe differently about her actual mind." - Monarch Laciel [6]

"It's 8-D Higher-Dimensional Manipulation but the description of her higher consciousness is described as being only 4-D on scale. I'd lean towards 4-D for the sake of safety, but it could be either due to 8-D Moon Cell stuff. Just acknowledge both possibilities." - Promestei [7]

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Becuase of that thread. I got an idea, but i will need time to type it out.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Okay.... This will probably be really facking poorly explained, but i'll try my best to fix that..

There is a Multiverse, and its perfectly described to us. It is described to us in the first 5 minutes of the Altera Route in Fate/Extella. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv0XRZvN4Pk&t=177s

You can watch that in the link above

The Mooncell Makes obvervations of each parrallel world.

The parrallel worlds go by many other names. "Future" "Possibilities" or even sometimes "Outcomes"

that is because every possibility creates a new future that creates a new universe.

And BB has a persepective, a mind/a brain, that can view every possibility, every outcome, and every future (The Multiverse) by looking down upon it as if existing outside of it, or transcending it. The Mooncell is able to take stock of a vasy array of futures. It observes the determination of every destiny, and outcome. In order for something of this magntitude to be achieved.Her perspective, her mind, her brain, can't simply be 4-D anymore. She is viewing the multiverse like a book as if transcending it.

It does this to update itself on what "path" humanity of that world is taking, and make a self-updating adjustments to itself. It also does this to make fixes to the measurements of energy, and make a better "Conceptual universe" or "inner world" to itself.

There is also the very first line of this particular scan.

"On the other hand, the laws of the Recorded Universe are different. The persepctive of the Recorded Universe is over Many Dimensions"

My Conclusion here is that her Mind, her brain in my opinions seems to make more since being beyond 4th dimenisonal. As her mind is capable of percieving an entire multiverse, and all its history as being a book.


Looking at this from a physics perspective where i will probably need fact checked, and i will undoubtly be wrong probably...


The 6th dimension is where you can start to view a plane of worlds that have the same intial start conditions. Since we only know that the Mooncell, and BB can look at the worlds in the Multiverse. It would logically make since they all had the same start conditions Aka "The Big Bang"

"In the sixth, we would see a plane of possible worlds, where we could compare and position all the possible universes that start with the same initial conditions as this one (i.e. the Big Bang). In theory, if you could master the fifth and sixth dimension, you could travel back in time or go to different futures." - [1] [2] [3]


Assuming this video is accurate, it also helps put into perspective what having a higher dimenisonal perspective would be like [4]

Which the 6th also seems plausible to what BB is doing with her mind in that video with being able to see all possibile realities with similar starting points.

[5]


I'd like to think there is some decently strong supporting evidence of her Mind, how she thinks, her perspective, her brain, her process of thought is at most 6th dimensional.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Will be taking a deeper look in a short while. But one thing for sure: You don't use real-life Dimension Theories for Dimensional Tiering in fictions. Especially those in VSBattles Wiki, where you don't need accuracy (because it isn't anyway), just prove that being Higher D = Beyond infinitely stronger than Lower D

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Will be taking a deeper look in a short while. But one thing for sure: You don't use real-life Dimension Theories for Dimensional Tiering in fictions. Especially those in VSBattles Wiki, where you don't need accuracy (because it isn't anyway), just prove that being Higher D = Beyond infinitely stronger than Lower D

True true, but it was brought up in the original thread that got BB the "Higher Dimensional Manipulation (Merged with the Mooncell which can create up to 8 Dimenisonal spaces" which i also linked, by the OP, and the Op maintained that stance... in regards to using "real science" the op did..

 

[Lancer45Man]

Will be taking a deeper look in a short while. But one thing for sure: You don't use real-life Dimension Theories for Dimensional Tiering in fictions. Especially those in VSBattles Wiki, where you don't need accuracy (because it isn't anyway), just prove that being Higher D = Beyond infinitely stronger than Lower D

This

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

True true, but it was brought up in the original thread that got BB the "Higher Dimensional Manipulation (Merged with the Mooncell which can create up to 8 Dimenisonal spaces" which i also linked, the OP, and the Op maintained that stance... in regards to using "real science" the op did..

@Lancer45Ma

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Anyways before a misunderstanding happens. My overrall point is that i believe her "Mind" has evidence of being above 4-D and probably stretching into the realm of 5 or maybe 6 dimensional. Shes viewing the multiverse (as if she transcends it) and all its history within her mind. She is her brain, process of though, her perspective. i should clairfy that...

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Huh.

You just sold me. Didn't know so many mods were fine with it. Also:

"It's just hax. In the same way HDM's The Authority is only 7-A despite his 8-D hax and Doom is only tier 2 with Galactus and a Cosmic Cube's powers, yet has High 1-Btechnology." - Kepekley23

BB is a smurf confirmed? Low 2-C but with 8-D/5-D/6-D hax?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

He changed his mind later on in that thread, and but he changed it a few days later. He said something like "8-D is too speculative, and 4-D is the much safer bet like Prom said."

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Ah. Low 2-C is already 4D anyways so that changes nothing. Too bad.

 

[Lancer45Man]

Well you really can't apply real life dimensional theories in fiction unless said Fictional verse gives statements and stuffs of following that Dimensional theory. But I digress.

Anyways, from the stuffs given it shows that BB has at least 4D mind, possibly 5D or 6D. Also if the Mooncell contains all the possibilities of the Multiverse be it infinite or countless, then her tier should be 2-A or 2-B respectively.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well you really can't apply real life dimensional theories in fiction unless said Fictional verse gives statements and stuffs of following that Dimensional theory. But I digress.
Anyways, from the stuffs given it shows that BB has at least 4D mind, possibly 5D or 6D. Also if the Mooncell contains all the possibilities of the Multiverse be it infinite or countless, then her tier should be 2-A or 2-B respectively.

It doesn't contain them. It only observers the multiverse for the sake of bettering its own inner world by using the information it analyzed. but there is alread a thread about that. I could pull it up if you want to look at it.