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BB 8D Removal

Scaling wise, BB fought the MoonCell to a stalemate while at that wall. The context is heavyily left out, and later BB used hax to bring that wall down. She used the Sakura Labyrinth to bring the wall down, and reach the core. The Labyrinth is apart of her C.C.C hax just not the maximum power.

tbh i rather her not become 1-C until she has a shit ton of regen, immortalities, abstract existence, and non-existent physiology
 
GLHF22 said:
so why someone say Melt have 1C invul?
Click to expand...
That was proven wrong. Tier 1-C Nasuverse (Except Avalon) is debunked. So yeah, that's not true.

As for Diinou's question, well if she destroyed it then she'd be Tier 1-C. But again, it being Tier 1-C was debunked. So it wouldn't apply either way. If the Mooncell were truly 8th dimensional, then something as puny as the 3D/4D Velber shouldn't even remotely pose a threat to it.
 
TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
tbh i rather her not become 1-C until she has a shit ton of regen, immortalities, abstract existence, and non-existent physiology
Click to expand...
Just you wait... The goddesses she composes will have those abilities when they appear in FGO or other spin-offs
 
@Shiny

I question whether or not Avalon is even accepted on this site. The 6D nature of the ability is not even on the Saber (Fate/stay night) profile, but it is on Shirou Emiya's profile for some reason.

In a general sense, there's not enough proof existing currently to conclusively affirm that these are truly higher dimensions which would grant some superiority on a spatial/temporal level. Minded, the 4D statements about BB moving through time like a book and such would be enough to prove her there conclusively imo.

Also the changes to the profile would be as such.

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (merged with and can control the Moon Cell, which can create 8 dimensional spaces)

to

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (merged with and can control the Moon Cell, which contains 4 dimensional space)

And in the intelligence category:

Intelligence: Born as a backup AI from Sakura Matou's feelings for Hakuno Kishinami, BB's rampancy allowed her to break free from the influence of the god-like Moon Cell. By placing herself in "unlimited" where even it cannot reach, BB managed to successfully take over its authority, absorbing numerous Divine Spirits including the Earth Mother Goddess to empower herself, creating the Sakura Labyrinth in order to extend Hakuno's life and becoming a hyper-grade AI that can easily defeat Servants as powerful as Gawain. Additionally, she merged with the Moon Cell, granting a higher dimensional perspective (of at least 4 dimensions, possibly 8) that allows her to perceive all possible timelines from outside them. However, she is mischievous and something of a tease, and rarely uses her power to its fullest extent.

to

Intelligence: Born as a backup AI from Sakura Matou's feelings for Hakuno Kishinami, BB's rampancy allowed her to break free from the influence of the god-like Moon Cell. By placing herself in "unlimited" where even it cannot reach, BB managed to successfully take over its authority, absorbing numerous Divine Spirits including the Earth Mother Goddess to empower herself, creating the Sakura Labyrinth in order to extend Hakuno's life and becoming a hyper-grade AI that can easily defeat Servants as powerful as Gawain. Additionally, she merged with the Moon Cell, granting a higher dimensional perspective (of at least 4 dimensions) that allows her to perceive all possible timelines from outside them. However, she is mischievous and something of a tease, and rarely uses her power to its fullest extent.
 
Why exactly does everyone act like being 8D means you have to be 1-C when people like The Authority exist with their own high dimensional manipulation but aren't 1-C Nerose Satanel has several high d things including 5D flames and isnt high 2-A ignore the fact that they are becoming 1-A after revisions
 
Its because of the contradictory "They are 8D, but they are not 8D" and BB merging with something that can create, and generate 8D spaces and it becoming one with her, and her becoming one with it and becoming the same being. would mean she becomes 1-C herself, or whatever, i just find it contradictory in my opinion.

Please don't kill me...

also, i do feel there is some agenda being pushed because nasuverse is "too strong" and some people fear their "Top strongest characters will be overthrown"
 
That's not true though, her merging with the mooncell which can create 8D spaces just means she now has 8D higher dimensional manip not that she physically becomes 1-C.

Also they are certainly 8D the arguments against it are kinda not good and boil down to just not thinking that dimensions in the nasuverse are actual dimensions which can be seen to be incorrect in several cases
 
@Upgrade I agree completely with your statement there. Either she is 1-C, or she's not 1-C in any capacity hax or otherwise. If the 1-C is unsupported or is regarded as an outlier, then it doesn't have any basis to remain as is.
 
I agree with this to be honest. The Moon Cell's dimensions seem to be highly discussed and convoluted, with multiple lower dimensional characters threatening it.
 
I disagree with "Lower dimensional Beings" threatening it.

but if someone would like to do research on what 8th dimensionality is, and then try to correlate that into how that works in the nasuverse,
 
Lower dimensional beings threatening it never really happened

Also from The Authority's page-Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (His Clouded Mountain twists through seven or eight dimensions)

And he doesn't have 1-C anywhere so its clearly not needed just because you have higher dimensional manip

Also again the mooncell making 8D spaces doesn't mean that fusing with it turns you physically 1-C
 
4D is fine imo. Although I do have question; 8D is obviously out of the picture, but could BB's mind possibly be 5D? BB stated that she sees time "like a book", and can freely jump from any point in time wherever she wants. Remember, we 3D beings see writings on a book as flat 2D paper. So since BB sees time itself like a book, could this warrant a possibly 5D?

I also say possibly 5D because time is apparently the 4th dimension; and BB already sees it like a flat book. Thoughts on this?

@Galaxian

Well to be fair, Avalon is completely untouchable to even TRUE MAGIC, something that only the Age of Gods Divine Spirits had. It being completely untouchable to everything else at least seems to give merit to Avalon residing in a higher dimension. Plus, I think the only place Goetia couldn't destroy was Avalon? Remember, this was after Goetia gave that rather vague statement of his true form coming from a higher dimension, and Ishtar has also said that her true form is in a separate, unreachable higher plane. Yet Goetia couldn't reach Avalon even with all this. So... I think Avalon could still be legit? But I do think Avalon needs a separate CRT to be discussed about whether it is legit or not.
 
On this thread i found of a seperate character it appears. Someone asked a question in the Questions & Answers board.

"if a char can destroy higher dimensional constructs (6-D for ex) using HDM, but outside of that can destroy a planet at best. What would their tier be like?"

most people replied with "Something along the lines of 5-B, Low 1-C with Hax I think." - https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3260848

There was no staff involvment on that thread though
 
From what i experienced here on the wiki, for a character to get 1-C tiering. a Multiverse has to be involved somewhere in there. Though i know the other party is saying this isn't about a 1-C rating. I am simply putting this out there from what i observed from other CRT's and profiles.
 
Well where's the evidence of it being legit 8D? I made a long post just a few replies up, asking about whether the higher dimensions in the Mooncell are legit, and if they are, evidences are needed.

No one has responded to that wall of text I just made yesterday, so to be quite frank I feel like I'm the one being ignored. So please, evidence is all we need, and then we can consider the 8D again.
 
To quote Azathoth:

I have no dog in this race, nor do I have any investment in the Nasuverse.

However...

"From a higher dimension, 3D is like a flat fabric. Let's see...say the 3D world is a world written in a book, and jumping in it resulted in finding yourself outside of the book, okay? It becomes so that you are able to see from above your own past, present, future, in the form of records. This is the perspective of a higher dimension. Do you see? At that point, all time within the book becomes equal. After all, you can view any point in time you like, whenever you want. There's no past or future. It's the same as that. This place is imaginary number space, a higher-dimensional informational space formed by light."

"That very Moon Cell is what BB became. She gained the perspective of a higher dimension. That's why....BB can make use of the past and the future at the same time. When she reached the core, she gained the power to choose and ascertain the future"

"With the inclusion of the AI called BB, the Moon Cell, which had been only the eye of god, became the brain of the god."

^This is all ludicrously clear "character's mind exists in a higher level of reality" shit. Unless the character has extremely bad anti-feats when it comes to mindhax resistance, I have no idea why this part is even being argued.


https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1484106
 
So just as a summary because I think some of my points haven't been organized as efficiently as they could have been. I also consulted some other friends who are knowledgeable and they brought up some points as well.

First of all, I am challenging the notion that given the information that we have from the story as shown above, that there is not enough evidence to conclusively prove that this is an 8-Dimensional structure. There is one mention of this barrier across all of the Fate/Extra universe games, and it doesn't appear anywhere else. This is most notable because a game such as Fate/Extella involves accessing the Moon Cell's power directly through the Regalia.

Secondly, in Fate/Extella we know that Velber directly threatened the whole Moon Cell. The Moon Cell tried to fight back and was unable to remove the threat, so it opted to quarantine it within the Zero Dark instead. The White Titan does not have any statements of being higher dimensional to threaten the entire thing. Most notably, it came from the Umbral Star which is a real object in the galaxy as well so it isn't from a higher plane of existence.

Thirdly, the Moon Cell being several countable infinities above 4D does not make much sense when you consider other things about the setting. For example, we know through the existence of Quantum Time Locks that it is impossible for there to be an infinite number of parallel timelines. Only a certain number of possibilities are allowed, and the rest are purged. Thus, it is impossible for there to be anything many infinities above 4D, much less 8D when we are dealing with a finite number of universes.

Finally, there is the nature of how this relates directly to Avalon. I won't contest Avalon on this thread, so we'll assume that it is accepted. Avalon is a directly stated to surpass all of the Five Magics which is a pretty big deal. This means it surpasses Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg's Second Magic. Now to be clear, the Second Magic allows for more universe crossing than the techniques used by Archimedes in Extella. Zeltretch has the ability to not only cross between similar timelines around the same events, but to go to other worlds entirely. For example, he could use the Second Magic to go from the Fate/stay night universe to Tsukihime. Because of this, Avalon should without a doubt be stronger than the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell being countable infinities higher doesn't make much sense.

Finally, there's the fact that the Moon Cell itself doesn't exist in any realities outside of the Fate/Extra universe. A true 8 dimensional object would exist several infinities above an infinite multiverse as far as the Tiering System is concerned, and yet this isn't the case.

The Moon Cell also only scans the surface of the World. It doesn't scan the Reverse Side where the higher dimensional nature of Avalon would be located. Given that this is a device that archives all history as accurately as possible, this is more likely a limitation of the Moon Cell than anything else.

Also, I am 100% on board with BB having Higher Dimensional Manipulation and Existence. I just think this only extends so far.
 
By the words of Waifuhunter, or also known as Mizukume in Beast lair. It's 8 dimension.

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/ceqyba/questions_abiut_kama_and_the_universe/eu561h2/

It is universe size when it comes to warping things exist within its conceptual universe, that's why I said Kama's universe is similar to Moon Cell's universe. Within your own uchuu, you are God. And that's when Moon Cell's ability to simulate comes in. It simulated an entire conceptual universe. That's why Kingprotea in Moon Cell is a universal disaster should we allow her to grow indefinitely. Now whether if you can affect anything aside from Earth in reality is unknown, since we don't know Moon Cell's actual limit. We knew it can even do stuffs like connecting to other timelines that has no Moon Cell (FGO) and the realm of the gods, can create a shield that covers 8 dimensions (Avalon can cover up to 6), can protect the Milky Way. Its "earth changing ability" is mostly due to its purpose as an observation device focusing on Earth and it records everything from Earth. Considering it was made by the same aliens who made Velber, the thing that travels the universe and wipe out planets, and is said to be something of same level as Moon Cell, I highly doubt all Moon Cell can do is restricted to Earth.
 
So... Avalon's higher D stuff is the same kind of Mooncell's higher D

The same kind we rejected for not being the sane as the wiki's higher D
 
Diinou HotHead said:
So... Avalon's higher D stuff is the same kind of Mooncell's higher D
The same kind we rejected for not being the sane as the wiki's higher D
Click to expand...
In Avalons defense, it at least has a much better description of how it works when Comapred to the Mooncell's "It cuts through eight dimensions"

"It is a Noble Phantasm at the level of magic, that completely shuts out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and communication from other dimensions (up to the sixth). If Saber secludes herself with this, none will be able to reach her."

https://www.tmdict.com/en/su.avalo
 
The avalon 6 dimensions are absolutely treated as dimensions by our standards afaik
 
How exactly? I mean, I asked people around, and I only get the Type-Moon dict thingy that UpgradeMan sent.

And the explanation is still vague: "shuts out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and communication from other dimensions (up to the sixth)"

Still looking vague, to be honest.
 
Because for instance, it has been shown to work on and shut out anything below 6D, including enuma elish, showing it is transcendent of the other dimensions below the 6th

Its stated that the user is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is said to be on the level of true magic, and it transcends all magecraft, with not even the Five Magics able to overcome the barrier.
 
The 8D wall did take BB days and Fate Manip from Post-Mooncell to break through as well.

But yeah, if that's enough for it being truly 6D, then I guess I'll be fine with it.
 
the 8d is also actual 8d but people just don't want to look within the verse to see that dimensions in nasu actually follow our tiering system most of the time
 
its that first line "all physical interference" which can encompass anything physical from the 5th and below. it also has "parallel worlds" in there which is extremely important for establishing a higher dimensional heirarchy. though it doesn't give us an exact number, but on this website transcending an infintely expanding, or already infinite sized multiverse (according to my knowledge) provides more evidence for a higher dimensional hierachy.

Also, in the VN it says that avalon "Blocks at all matter" which is High 3-A at the very least, i am currently looking for that scan but i do know it exist. Though, i may have butchered the sentence
 
Bringing down the "8D" wall for BB is complicated... The Sakura labyrinth is the reason she brought down the wall, but the issue is... there is time travel shenangeins... sort of
 
After Melt's Floor is finished, BB stated she "stands right in front of the wall of the core" and says that the construction of the labyrinth has finished. So yeah, I don't recall the Labyrinth helping her breaking the wall, in fact, I remember her or somebody saying something about making a drill to break it.
 
The Sakura Labyrinth was critical for her plan. It was the only way she can reach the Mooncells core which was protected by that barrier.

"Julius :: The security on the Moon Cell's core is strong. It's a place that only the victor of the Holy Grail War can enter. That's why BB made the Sakura Labyrinth disguised as an arena. Because as an arena, it would be able to connect to the core like a legitimate pathway. It becomes the only path that can reach the core. Which means she was making the Labyrinth extended deeper regardless of how all of you traversed it. The Labyrinth exists in order to penetrate the depths of the moon. So before that —" https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/entry-105-man-from-the-shadows/
 
The Labyrinth is for her to GET CLOSER to the Core.

By the time Melt's floor was created, the Labyrinth has reached the Core, and has finished construction. All BB has to do now is to go past the 8D wall.
 
you uuuhhh know that the MC, and Gilgamesh used the Labyrinth to walk into the core right???

"Instantly, I feel an intense light. When I open my eyelids, there's darkness. This is the end of the far side of the moon…the Moon Cell Core Zone. It's dark, cold, but not frightful, a bit warm. From somewhere there echoes a creaking sound that makes me think of heartbeats. This is different from the "end of the Labyrinth" we've seen however many times previously. Like the Labyrinth this is a construct, but it's not the Sakura Labyrinth. This is a "road to the Core" borrowing the Labyrinth's body."


Rin :: Then, then this is the real BB…? Her heart, I mean? Wait wait, then could it be that…All the Sakura Labyrinth so far has been BB's the space inside BB's heart!? So we've been descending through BB's heart!?

Rani :: …It would be appropriate to think of it that way. And a small correction. It appears BB is not inside that wall. That is an empty shell — a simple physical obstacle. We can't go inside it.

Rin :: Th, that's right I guess, the Labyrinth itself is BB's heart…but, how do we break this down? The construction of this thing is ridiculously strong. None of the drivers are at all likely to enter…if we do this wrong, it might be more sturdy that the Core defense wall.

https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/entry-140-out-of-time/

I'll admit if i could be wrong. My english isn't the greatest in the world.
 
Of course it is. But the 8D wall is at the Core itself. Past the Labyrinth. (You walk past that stairway, to the core area where you fight BB right? Normally, there would be a wall, but BB broke it down, so yeah)
 
Okay.. So i will admit i was wrong.. i'm sorry for any headaches... The Sakura Labyrinth appears to stop at where the wall was for the core..
 
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