Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Another issue I find is in the Fortitudo fight, we directly see objects Bayo has interacted with flat out stop in place where they should just immediately hit Fortitudo.



Here we see that after she hits the rocks, when by all means they should still be going extremely fast as per the speed boost, here we blatantly see that they slow down after being hit. Should this not be the case if Bayonetta is merely speeding herself up?

 

[Comicgyal]

I agree with Dragon there, even if the whole “time is relative” whatever stuff applied here, Bayonetta moving faster than the objects around here doesn’t apply to that situation. The rocks are sent towards fortitudo, she’s literally riding one of them and knocking the others around. Unless you think the rocks can also speed themselves up, since they move with Bayonetta, it’s obviously her slowing them down. It would make no sense otherwise.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Another issue I find is in the Fortitudo fight, we directly see objects Bayo has interacted with flat out stop in place where they should just immediately hit Fortitudo.



Here we see that after she hits the rocks, when by all means they should still be going extremely fast as per the speed boost, here we blatantly see that they slow down after being hit. Should this not be the case if Bayonetta is merely speeding herself up?

WeeklyBattles also brought up this point:

My initial answer: As for the chain attacks, Witch Time can extend to objects of her choosing. Again, even if Witch Time were a time slow, it wouldn't make sense for her bullets to move past a few meters, yet they do anyway. Bayonetta can choose to extend her Witch Time to objects around her, as she does with her bullets in gameplay and cutscenes, or choose not to, as she does here. In your example of the rocks, the same would apply, Bayonetta is choosing to speed up other objects with her. (And theoretically, this is in line with how super speed would work; I'll quote someone else who can put it more precisely, "Bayo isn't just moving faster - if she doubles her speed with witch time, then every property of Bayo related to time doubles in favor of increasing her forces-over-time and reducing all other forces-over-time, but only relative to each other. This is how Flash is able to lift a giant gorilla over his head like it's nothing when running at super-speed. When he travels at ten times normal speed, he's multiplying his forces-over-time by ten relative to his environment, so he's also receiving less force from his cargo, because his cargo is accelerating downwards relatively ten times slower and he's accelerating it upwards ten times faster, even though from his perspective he's just raising his arms.")

Weekly: You do know her bullets are also empowered by her magic right? Thats why they move normally when everything else is slowed but are brought to a halt when someone like Balder uses Lightspeed.

Me: Yes, I say that right there, that she can choose to either slow her bullets or not, presumably with her magic, since it wouldn't make sense regardless for a time slow or speed boost.

The same is happening with the rocks.

 

[Comicgyal]

That response doesn’t make sense either.

Yes, witch time can extend to certain objects, however when looking at the rocks the whole “Speeding herself up” starts to lose some validity.

So let’s say Bayonetta can speed herself up, and it’s not a time related ability, when witch time is activated you get the initial purple screen and sound. When witch time is stacked, you get the same purple screen and sound but time is visibly slower than before. If Bayonetta is speeding items up, then slowing them back down, she should show the same stacking and Unstacking of witch time that we see her and Jeanne do. Instead, she just bumps into rocks, and then the rocks slow down again. It doesn’t go too well with the speed herself up theory, and is much better attributed to her making time slow entirely. That way items can move freely whenever she wants them too, without needing to use witch time again in order to slow them down.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Yeah, not buying that. The bullet gif you are showing doesn't make much sense either. You say she's slowing down the bullet when this entire scene is literally her spinning in place while she's supposedly is super speed mode. In this case, shouldn't she be outpacing literally all these bullets and crashing into the door like a dope seeing as she is blatantly still going forward? One top of this, it isn't like the bullets are stuck in mid air at the same place, they are each still ahead of the later bullets fired. Looks to me that she's just firing multiple bullets rapidly and this being more of a style thing rather than her trying to slow down the bullets which wouldn't even make sense for her in this case.

Fiction tends to display attacks and whatnot from characters who can slow, stop or accelerate time as being unaffected by said Temporal abilities. Bayo's guns being unaffected by her Witch Time is just another showing of this. Also, you are saying that she is choosing what she wants to slow down, but in this case she should instead be choosing to suddenly speed herself up which is not shown here.

 

[Comicgyal]

Weekly was right in his initial quote, because Balder stacks light speed over her witch time. The bullets don’t move slowly when everything is in witch time, that’s because it wasn’t affected by the initial use. However if balder uses light speed, the bullets are then affected by the ability and slow down. Whenever objects are needed to be slowed down further, a user stacks either witch time or light speed over it. That wasn’t displayed.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I would also like to add that in the gif you gave us, Bayo is also seems to be directly spinning much faster after the button mash bit showing that in that one instance, everything, including Bayo was slowed for style rather than to show Bayo slowing down her bullets.

Regardless, I am done with this thread moreso due to regardless of the exact mechanics of the ability (Time hax or Stat Amp), the end result is literally the exact same lol

 

[swaggyzealot]

That response doesn’t make sense either.

Yes, witch time can extend to certain objects, however when looking at the rocks the whole “Speeding herself up” starts to lose some validity.

So let’s say Bayonetta can speed herself up, and it’s not a time related ability, when witch time is activated you get the initial purple screen and sound. When witch time is stacked, you get the same purple screen and sound but time is visibly slower than before. If Bayonetta is speeding items up, then slowing them back down, she should show the same stacking and Unstacking of witch time that we see her and Jeanne do. Instead, she just bumps into rocks, and then the rocks slow down again. It doesn’t go too well with the speed herself up theory, and is much better attributed to her making time slow entirely. That way items can move freely whenever she wants them too, without needing to use witch time again in order to slow them down.

Bayonetta uses Witch Time - moves very fast - everything appears slow.

Physics of the rock she is riding on translate to her speed.

When she hits the other floating rocks, they are momentarily boosted by her superspeed - increasing their velocity.

The rocks stop and lose their momentum suddenly due to Bayonetta only boosting them by her superspeed for a brief moment, however they still posses a higher velocity than their original starting point, hence why they hit Fortitudo when Witch Time is "released." Again, here is an apt comparison of how superspeed appears identical to a time slow - functionally, they work exactly the same.

You say she's slowing down the bullet when this entire scene is literally her spinning in place while she's supposedly is super speed mode. In this case, shouldn't she be outpacing literally all these bullets seeing as she is blatantly still going forward. One top of this, it isn't like the bullets are stuck in mid air at the same place, they are each still ahead of the later bullets fired. Looks to me that she's just firing multiple bullets rapidly and this being more of a style thing rather than her trying to slow down the bullets which wouldn't even make sense for her in this case

You can make the same argument for a time slow, again, since the same physics would apply. She should be outpacing her bullets regardless if she was still going forward just really fast, or if it was a time slow.

But to explain again:

Bayonetta uses Witch Time - moves very fast - everything appears slow.

Bayonetta rapidly spins in a circle - firing bullets - staying in place.

Bullets slow to a halt since they are being momentarily boosted by her speed, but they are still able to fire since they are tied to Bayonetta's physics (actual proper explanation would just be "magic guns.)

Bayonetta can choose to extend her Witch Time to her bullets - as she does with her bullets in gameplay and cutscenes - or choose not to as she does with the spinning.

It's honestly very simple.

 

[Comicgyal]

Bayonetta uses Witch Time - moves very fast - everything appears slow.

Physics of the rock she is riding on translate to her speed.

When she hits the other floating rocks, they are momentarily boosted by her superspeed - increasing their velocity.

The rocks stop and lose their momentum suddenly due to Bayonetta only boosting them by her superspeed for a brief moment, however they still posses a higher velocity than their original starting point, hence why they hit Fortitudo when Witch Time is "released." Again, here is an apt comparison of how superspeed appears identical to a time slow - functionally, they work exactly the same.


You can make the same argument for a time slow, again, since the same physics would apply. She should be outpacing her bullets regardless if she was still going forward just really fast, or if it was a time slow.

But to explain again:

Bayonetta uses Witch Time - moves very fast - everything appears slow.

Bayonetta rapidly spins in a circle - firing bullets - staying in place.

Bullets slow to a halt since they are being momentarily boosted by her speed, but they are still able to fire since they are tied to Bayonetta's physics (actual proper explanation would just be "magic guns.)

Bayonetta can choose to extend her Witch Time to her bullets - as she does with her bullets in gameplay and cutscenes - or choose not to as she does with the spinning.

It's honestly very simple.

You can say that for witch time, so it’s not really an obvious answer. Witch time is a time slow, so when enemies are hit in witch time, they keep flying slowly until it’s over. The rocks never “stop” they’re still moving, just slowly. They retain their momentum when the time slow is deactivated.

Witch time isn’t like light speed, where time seems to stop entirely.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

My lord, what ever happened to 1 CRT per verse at a time.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

My lord, what ever happened to 1 CRT per verse at a time.

It no longer exists and was stopped from what I heard

 

[Comicgyal]

Huh? Our other crt hasn’t even reached a conclusion yet.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Huh? Our other crt hasn’t even reached a conclusion yet.

I think they were referring to the rule.

 

[Comicgyal]

I see, makes sense

 

[swaggyzealot]

You can say that for witch time, so it’s not really an obvious answer.

This was my original point. Time is relative, so all examples in-game cannot be used accurately to determine if either Witch Time slows time or is a speed boost. We need to use texts, and WoG (if you are so inclined), to interpret this ability correctly, since again - if Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases.

Witch time is a time slow, so when enemies are hit in witch time, they keep flying slowly until it’s over. The rocks never “stop” they’re still moving, just slowly. They retain their momentum when the time slow is deactivated.

Again, Witch Time is never said to be a time slow. And again - the same physics apply in a time slow/stop or speed boost.

Witch time isn’t like light speed, where time seems to stop entirely.

And this would imply that Balder is simply moving faster than Bayonetta, hence why he can "blitz" her in cutscenes.

 

[Strife304]

Sorry, but can someone help me understand how exactly is it that a low ranking Angel could just suddenly "power-up" and match the Speed of Bayonetta who is also amplifying her already superior speed? The only other entity I've seen "resist" or "power" out of the influence of Witch Time is Aesir and surely we aren't saying that characters in this verse can just conveniently power up on demand to compete with one another?

I'm also opposed to the notion of having to ignore visuals and in-game content in favor of pure statements because even those are dicey. Kamiya says, "speed amp", literally everything else points to time slow + more. I'm pretty sure someone mentioned that it all goes hand in hand - a byproduct of a greater power that's mastered by those who wield it. Which I ultimately think it's both when piecing together everything being brought forth.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Sorry, but can someone help me understand how exactly is it that a low ranking Angel could just suddenly "power-up" and match the Speed of Bayonetta who is also amplifying her already superior speed? The only other entity I've seen "resist" or "power" out of the influence of Witch Time is Aesir and surely we aren't saying that characters in this verse can just conveniently power up on demand to compete with one another?

Gameplay reasons, as I've mentioned, or it is possible that Angels are able to match her speed. Regardless, even if Witch Time was a time slow, it would still be "nonsensical" for a lower ranking angel to break out of a time resist, while other high ranking angels haven't.

Again though, we have seen other angels fight Bayonetta while she was boosting herself under the effects of Witch Time, such as Fortitudo or Sapientia. And again, all these beings are not demonstrating a "time resist," but instead are just moving really fast. In either case, WT being a timeslow/speedboost, it seems that angels can boost themselves to fight evenly with Bayonetta.

I'm also opposed to the notion of having to ignore visuals and in-game content in favor of pure statements because even those are dicey. Kamiya says, "speed amp", literally everything else points to time slow + more. I'm pretty sure someone mentioned that it all goes hand in hand - a byproduct of a greater power that's mastered by those who wield it. Which I ultimately think it's both when piecing together everything being brought forth.

Once more, no visuals are being ignored. I've explained how the physics of a time slow and super speed are identical, and even provided clips of other speedsters (Quicksilver) doing similar things to Bayonetta.

Again, Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was released.

There are no in-game statements saying Witch Time is a time slow. There are two in-game statements stating it is super speed.

As said above, time is relative, so all examples in-game cannot be used accurately to determine if either Witch Time slows time or is a speed boost. We need to use texts, and WoG (if you are so inclined), to interpret this ability correctly, since again - if Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m going to mostly wait for Ant to come back, before I continue debating my side. The information is too inconsistent for me.

 

[swaggyzealot]

I know this is somewhat difficult to grasp, considering my own initial presumptions of how this ability worked clouded my judgement (I too thought WT was a time slow), but again, after compiling all the evidence/understanding how this ability works - it seems evident that Witch Time is a speed boost.

 

[Comicgyal]

Nothing about this situation is difficult, I’ve played through both games plenty of times. I simply disagree with your logic.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Nothing about this situation is difficult, I’ve played through both games plenty of times. I simply disagree with your logic.

Then there is simply no convincing you, since my logic is sound.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It’s all perspective.

 

[Strife304]

Gameplay reasons, as I've mentioned, or it is possible that Angels are able to match her speed. Regardless, even if Witch Time was a time slow, it would still be "nonsensical" for a lower ranking angel to break out of a time resist, while other high ranking angels haven't.

I don't think that any of that is the case. As a matter of fact, I don't ever recall seeing anything like a lower ranking angel showing anything of that nature. It's never happened in Bayonetta 2, but maybe I need to revisit Bayonetta 1. That matter aside, gameplay is above all else our greatest contributor to what we know, discounting it would be more of a disservice to the lore and statements that add context to it.

Again though, we have seen other angels fight Bayonetta while she was boosting herself under the effects of Witch Time, such as Fortitudo or Sapientia. And again, all these beings are not demonstrating a "time resist," but instead are just moving really fast. In either case, WT being a timeslow/speedboost, it seems that angels can boost themselves to fight evenly with Bayonetta.

Whereas with Bayonetta I do know she uses magic, and everything you all presented described it m "temporal powers"

Once more, no visuals are being ignored. I've explained how the physics of a time slow and super speed are identical, and even provided clips of other speedsters (Quicksilver) doing similar things to Bayonetta.

Bayonetta isn't a speedster, I don't think that's an appropriate comparison, though I get the argument you're trying to make. The analogy is also lost on me because I don't know what makes Quicksilver's speedster abilities function, but I know Bayonetta's is magic. Unless he's using umbran magic I don't think it's right to compare them.

Again, Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was release.

There are no in-game statements saying Witch Time is a time slow. There are two in-game statements stating it is super speed.

Just because the game doesn't outright say Witch Time itself is a time slow doesn't mean it wouldn't be, perception is playing a big part here. Its very clear what's happening when you're performing Witch time.

For me it's a matter of what makes more sense in the context of Bayonetta the game, coupled with its themes, lore, and the statements you've repeatedly brought up. They describe the Umbran and Lumen powers as "temporal powers", temporal can mean time and things dealing with the world. We are consistently shown that magic, technology and accessories empowered by magic, and the world itself hinges on time and the abuse of it. Taking all that into account without the mental gymnastics, witch time can easily be reasoned that all of what you and everyone else presented that the speed amps and time slowing are smaller aspects of the greater "temporal power".

As said above, time is relative, so all examples in-game cannot be used accurately to determine if either Witch Time slows time or is a speed boost. We need to use texts, and WoG (if you are so inclined), to interpret this ability correctly, since again - if Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases.

Yeah, everything needs to be taken into account, I understand why you're saying it but the games are the greater portion of where we draw the feats. Lore and statements are meant to substantiate the actual work, so I'm opposed to this line of thinking, I feel this way for any work of fiction. If you subtract the core source of all the information then there's not much to discuss.

 

[Strife304]

My reply got butchered, but that's all I have to say, I'm really for both stat amp and time manipulation being added to Witch time, really

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Leaning towards disagree with OP, but whatever happens it’s definitely a stat amp.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Witch Time is a speed amp and a time slow. I always thought the speed amp part was already covered on her profile but I guess not.

 

[swaggyzealot]

I don't think that any of that is the case. As a matter of fact, I don't ever recall seeing anything like a lower ranking angel showing anything of that nature. It's never happened in Bayonetta 2, but maybe I need to revisit Bayonetta 1. That matter aside, gameplay is above all else our greatest contributor to what we know, discounting it would be more of a disservice to the lore and statements that add context to it.

Once more, I am not discounting it. I literally said: Again though, we have seen other angels fight Bayonetta while she was boosting herself under the effects of Witch Time, such as Fortitudo or Sapientia. And again, all these beings are not demonstrating a "time resist," but instead are just moving really fast. In either case, WT being a timeslow/speedboost, it seems that angels can boost themselves to fight evenly with Bayonetta.

Whereas with Bayonetta I do know she uses magic, and everything you all presented described it m "temporal powers"

I have addressed this point in the OP.

Bayonetta isn't a speedster, I don't think that's an appropriate comparison, though I get the argument you're trying to make. The analogy is also lost on me because I don't know what makes Quicksilver's speedster abilities function, but I know Bayonetta's is magic. Unless he's using umbran magic I don't think it's right to compare them.

I have explained the physics repeatedly

Just because the game doesn't outright say Witch Time itself is a time slow doesn't mean it wouldn't be, perception is playing a big part here. Its very clear what's happening when you're performing Witch time.

For me it's a matter of what makes more sense in the context of Bayonetta the game, coupled with its themes, lore, and the statements you've repeatedly brought up. They describe the Umbran and Lumen powers as "temporal powers", temporal can mean time and things dealing with the world. We are consistently shown that magic, technology and accessories empowered by magic, and the world itself hinges on time and the abuse of it. Taking all that into account without the mental gymnastics, witch time can easily be reasoned that all of what you and everyone else presented that the speed amps and time slowing are smaller aspects of the greater "temporal power".

Again, there are no "mental gymnastics," these Temporal Powers allow the Umbra to "literally see everything in an instant" It is a "technique [that] sharped all of the five senses, and enables one to boost their physical abilities." That is all that is said, in fact, it is actually "mental gymnastics" to try and claim that this document is talking about slowing time, when it is explicit in its statements.

Just because the game doesn't outright say Witch Time itself is a time slow doesn't mean it wouldn't be, perception is playing a big part here. Its very clear what's happening when you're performing Witch time.

The game does not say Witch Time is a time slow. The game says Witch Time is a speed boost. It does not get anymore clear than that.

Yeah, everything needs to be taken into account, I understand why you're saying it but the games are the greater portion of where we draw the feats. Lore and statements are meant to substantiate the actual work, so I'm opposed to this line of thinking, I feel this way for any work of fiction. If you subtract the core source of all the information then there's not much to discuss.

There is a possible misunderstanding here, please re-read my statements where I describe time is relative, and why a time slow would look functionally the same as a speed boost.

And again, I will include this here:

Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was release.

 

[Antvasima]

Dragonmasterxyz seems to make sense to me. He is probably capable of evaluating what we should do here.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Just gonna add something else here, to be more precise:

Fiction tends to display attacks and whatnot from characters who can slow, stop or accelerate time as being unaffected by said Temporal abilities. Bayo's guns being unaffected by her Witch Time is just another showing of this. Also, you are saying that she is choosing what she wants to slow down, but in this case she should instead be choosing to suddenly speed herself up which is not shown here.

I am saying she is choosing what she wants to speed up with her. I said "magic guns" above, since realistically if this were a simple speed boost, guns/bullets wouldn't behave the way Bayonetta is using them during this "speed boost." The only reason I am not classifying Witch Time as "time acceleration" here, is because of Kamiya's statements (which state no time manipulation), and no statements in-game or interviews claiming Witch Time is a time manipulation ability. Everything says it is just a speed boost. Again, Temporal =/= time (keeping in mind all definitions).

The conclusion seems more fair to say Bayonetta's Witch Time (speedboost) can extend towards objects to her choosing in this case - via magic. Her guns are magic/shes using magic on her guns, which is why they behave the way they do, not that Bayonetta suddenly has a different power set. True physics, would not apply to Bayonetta regardless without handwaving them, or the explanation being magic. Bayonetta would literally just vaporize the air around her, and destroy buildings/objects just by moving so fast. Actual superspeed is impossible to accurately portray, without some other explanation, ex. speedforce, or just ignoring the ramifications, ex. Quicksilver (no explanation, he can just move really fast without causing instant sonic booms/destruction, and can still listen to music at a normal rate relative to him while using superspeed.) In Bayonetta's case, she has literal magic to explain why her speed boost works the way does, and why she can choose to extend it to other objects (her guns/bullets).

Regardless, at the end of the day, as you said - "self time acceleration" and a "speed boost" are nigh identical.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah its one or the other. Its like the Kiritsugu thing where he accelerates time for himself but doesn't affect other people.

 

[swaggyzealot]

To summarize what I've gathered from the other side:
Weekly: Claims Witch Time is time manipulation - provides no character statements despite saying he had them. Tries to prove Witch Time is time manipulation via cutscenes, when I have explained why a time slow would look and function identically to a speed boost.

Comicgyal: Tries to to claim Witch Time is Temporal Control and a speed boost, when in fact, it is not. Witch Time is Temporal Control, and Temporal Control is the speed boost; they are not two separate abilities. Comicgyal seems to be misunderstanding the source text. Also attempts to prove Witch Time is a time slow via cutscenes, when a time slow would look identical to a speed boost. Again, I have explained the physics, and even provided other examples of speedsters showing why this is the case.

Strife304: Claims, Game feats > lore. Which is true, but again, as I said above, a time slow and superspeed would look the same. There no way to tell which is the case without using other sources. And we have sources, two of them from the game itself, which claim Witch Time is super speed, and not time manipulation.

Dragonmasterxyz: (probably the only decent point made) Claims Witch Time is actually self time acceleration. Reason behind this interpretation is that Bayonetta's bullets behave strangely, and her "physics" in her speed boost don't make sense. I agreed, and pointed out that if this were a time slow as well, regardless, her "physics" would also not make sense. Dragonmaster agrees - it is not a time slow. Claims that due to certain properties of other objects being effected differently than they innately should - Bayonetta is demonstrating self time acceleration. Counterpoint was that no speedsters actually adhere to "true physics." Ex. Flash doesn't atomize everything he runs past, Quicksilver can still listen to music at a normal rate relative to him while running. Effecting other objects, seems to be an innate power for certain speedsters. Flash's explanation is the speedforce, Quicksilver has no explanation, and for Bayonetta, her explanation would be magic. Also pointed out that the logical conclusion would be that Bayonetta is demonstrating similar "secondary powers" that other speedsters have, and not instead a different power set all together.

(And technically speaking, as Dragonmaster also points out, self time acceleration fundamentally produces the same effect as superspeed - it's both self acceleration by increasing your "time" against your "environment's time" - so there isn't any strong disagreement here, other than just semantics.)


All other claims, ex. Khepri, time travel, the use of "heavenly manipulators," etc. I have all addressed, and explained. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding with what in-game text states, what occurs in the game, and how certain abilities work. I'm not going to repeat everything I have written, since I still stand by everything I have said above.


And again, the bottom line is this:

Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never explicitly shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was released.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

At this point - due to neither side budging - one can only ask neutral mods to decide which one they believe and then apply downgrades or simple reject.

 

[Comicgyal]

Agree with Milly. I’ll summarize my own claims when I’m asked to.

 

[Dienomite22]

I don't want to be accused of being a Bayonetta downplayer because of my standpoint in another thread (Actually I will prove that I'm quite the opposite sometime in the future) but I am leaning more towards agreeing with Swaggy. His logic is sound and he is consistently bringing up examples in favor of Witch Time being a speed amp while giving reasonable explanations for counterexamples those of disagree brought up. The numerous WoG statements over the entire existence of the game's debut saying it's a speed amp, the lack of any real/trustworthy statement calling Witch Time timeslow, the in-game text and prompts stating it's more an amp, I can't help but believe it's truly intended to be a speed amp and the cutscene feats that seemingly indicate Witch Time is timeslow are either continuity errors that accidentally portrayed the speed amp incorrectly because of the confusing nature of movement at such speeds or can be given reasonable be explanations via speed amps and magic.

I agree with Swaggy for now.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I don't want to be accused of being a Bayonetta downplayer because of my standpoint in another thread (Actually I will prove that I'm quite the opposite sometime in the future)

Humming intensifies

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, it's still going to pretty much be the same thing Vs threads wise whether it's a speed amp or time slow. The difference is that an amp can potentially be a statistics upgrade via speed amp if the numerals are correct.

 

[swaggyzealot]

And to bounce off DarkDragonMedgeus, for my last point, to the users claiming this "downgrades her," fundamentally this doesn't. Bear with me, since it seems some people who have gone against my statements still don't understand how similar (and different) a time slow and superspeed are.

Superspeed breaks physics. Flash and Quicksilver are not simply "running faster" or "moving faster," they are "existing faster."

When Bayonetta uses Witch Time to change the relationship between her time and her environment's time, all "[property] over time" equations and all equations related to those are affected at once. Force, velocity, weight, inertia, everything. Bayonetta essentially becomes "stronger," by virtue of everything becoming slower and therefore lighter (casually pushing away boulders "falling" in midair).

Again, with the Quicksilver scene, where he instantly boosts his speed while standing still, he is not just "moving really fast," he himself is faster. It may seem like he just perceiving everything faster, and moves just as fast, but it is not that simple - he exists faster. If he was actually just "moving really fast," he would just vaporize everything around him, and certain objects wouldn't move with him (his music.) This is why DC uses "speedforce" to explain physics/reality breaking nonsense that occurs with the Flash and other speedsters.

Bayonetta and Jeanne can do the same, and can "amp" their speeds instantly, at a standstill. They are not just perceiving things faster (which wouldn't slow the angels), they themselves exist faster (fundamentally the same as a time slow).

Flash, Quicksilver, and Bayonetta "exist faster" when they enter their superspeed, not just "speed up." Superspeed is almost never portrayed accurately in media - it comes with multiple secondary powers than most speedsters share. Speedsters without "secondary powers," would be unable to interact with objects if they were simply "moving fast" - they would vaporize/destroy whatever they touch. For Bayonetta, these "secondary powers" can go unexplained, as it does for most speedsters, or simply be summarized as magic. These secondary powers (magic, or again, "existing faster") prevents Bayonetta from instantly atomizing objects she touches, and allows her to choose if she wants to make their "existence" relative to her (which is why her bullets fire at regular rates during WT in gameplay). (Also alike how Quicksilver applies this "relative existence" to his music while he is running.)

Again to go off what Dragonmasterxyz said, "self time acceleration" is essentially what Bayonetta is doing, along with all other speedsters (Flash, Quicksilver). It's actually more accurate to describe their powers as a combination of "time acceleration and superspeed," considering how they interact and can choose to interact with their environment. Nevertheless, "superspeed," is the more commonly known term, and one if it's secondary powers is innately "time acceleration on chosen objects"

Again thought, the best way to describe these speedsters, is not with self time acceleration, or superspeed, but simply, "existing faster."


To address battleboarding:

In terms of speed match ups, this changes nothing. (Opponents who are fast enough to equal a Witch Time "slow," are still fast to equal her Witch Time "speed.")

In terms of opponents with time resist, this buffs her. (Opponents who could previously resist a Witch Time "slow," no longer have any time slow to resist)

In terms of opponents with no time resist, this makes no difference. (Opponents who could not resist a Witch Time "slow," are still faced with the same "speed" difference)

In terms of opponents who can freeze/slow time, this makes no difference. (Opponents who could freeze time, should still be able to catch Bayo off guard. Balder moves so fast that everything is still - which is essentially a time stop. Bayonetta still would get "blitzed" or at least momentarily stunned. For opponents who could slow time, this makes no difference, Bayo can still match them with her "speed.")

Technically, this is a buff. But that doesn't matter, since I didn't make this thread to effect her battleboarding outcomes, I made this to correct the incorrect belief that Bayonetta is "slowing time."

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Even if Witch Time is deemed to not be time slow (which I haven't agreed to yet) I just wanna note, she still has resistance to time slow, as she broke out of Aesir's which is undoubtedly time manip.

 

[Comicgyal]

She would also still have time manipulation, however I would still be against the downgrade due to how broken it would be to have both abilities in witch time. Time slow and a stat boost.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Even if Witch Time is deemed to not be time slow (which I haven't agreed to yet) I just wanna note, she still has resistance to time slow, as she broke out of Aesir's which is undoubtedly time manip.

I believe you are referring to this, in which this case she still gets stunned momentarily. Regardless, I do not know how to define this attack or even explain what Aesir is doing here, since the spell throws Bayonetta into the air, and the background turns to a red galaxy. Balder also appears unaffected by the spell (even though it could be said for "gameplay reasons," or whatever).

She would also still have time manipulation, however I would still be against the downgrade due to how broken it would be to have both abilities in witch time. Time slow and a stat boost.

And again, she is not slowing time, WT is basically just "superspeed."