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Battle of pasty dream gods: Dream vs Hypnos

Which dream are you using? If its the second dream no idea, but Hypnos should be stronger than the first key. While normal dream's justifications are baseline, Hypnos can ascend to realms further transcendent than baseline 1A, and while his mind could not handle that what lay beyond the gate, he himself was able to surpass it through his own power, which is still quite the feat since IIRC each gate is >an infinity the last and even the first is like that to 1A dimensionless space. Been a while since I read Lovecraft though, so I could be wrong.
 
Yeah, this is definitely a mismatch. Hypnos not only transcends all concepts before the First Gate, as well as other 1-A entities that exist in the undimensioned spaces before the First Gate, but he can travel through and adapt to infinite higher outerversal domains, and was confident in his ability to conquer all of existence before he traveled beyond the First Gate, which was inaccessible (like the cardinal) to the narrator who also was given the power to navigate and adapt to said outerversal realms (Fllflourine did some "typo corrections" in the past that actually took some of the feats of Hypnos' out of context, it mentions limitless vacua (the plural) and not just one vacuum:

Of the progress of time we kept no record, for time had become to us the merest illusion. I know only that there must have been something very singular involved, since we came at length to marvel why we did not grow old. Our discourse was unholy, and always hideously ambitious - no god or daemon could have aspired to discoveries and conquest like those which we planned in whispers. I shiver as I speak of them, and dare not be explicit; though I will say that my friend once wrote on paper a wish which he dared not utter with his tongue, and which made me burn the paper and look affrightedly out of the window at the spangled night sky. I will hint - only hint - that he had designs which involved the rulership of the visible universe and more; designs whereby the earth and the stars would move at his command, and the destinies of all living things be his. I affirm - I swear - that I had no share in these extreme aspirations. Anything my friend may have said or written to the contrary must be erroneous, for I am no man of strength to risk the unmentionable spheres by which alone one might achieve success.


There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously known.
 
TheSandman31 here

I mean isnt that the same as the Endless? they embody concepts that reaches into the ultimate Void (The void beyond voids, which is the Overvoid) and thre concept of dreams in DC can even changr things from the very beginning to the very end of everything
 
Also, why are death and destiny not possibly 1A but dream is? Isn't dream weaker than those two?
 
death is likely 1-A and so is destiny, my laptop is busted so I wont be able to update their pages for a while
 
But they've been around longer than the Presence, Death definitely is, she claimed Silk Mans Creation which is older than the Presence
 
Well, if they're not above the Presence I definitely don't see how they could ever beat Hypnos, even with an incredible range (Which Hypnos also had)
 
Then stalemate again I guess, also its not just range since the Endless are the concepts they embody, its more nigh-omnipresence on a scale that dwarfs even outerversal spaces

Also, I think Hypnos can kill an aspect but not the Endless themselves since that would recquire the complete destruction of the concept they embody
 
Aeyu said:
@Sandman
Are you implying the Endless to be above the Presence?
Click to expand...
About that, its a complicated thing, because the Dream of the Endless is both above and beneath all gods and mortals

He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters.- The Sandman: Book of Dreams

Also, the 1-A Dream is supposed to be Yog-Sothoth
 
Overture Sandman should win this by ^^^ words.

PS I have read the Sandman Overture in person, it did say that Lovecraftian Dream was "the dream of the first created beings".

Dream also used his Father's Speculum and the dreams of a 1000 to reset Destiny's Book, albeit this weakened him greatly. Said 1000 dreams made The Presence, and The Presence admits himself that he was no more than an idea.

Dream also claimed to travel to places "that the Endless dare not travel to".

I think Overture Sandman >>> Main Sandman
 
Well, I didnt say that Dream wins, I said it could possibly be inconclusive, I cant vote as I'm the OP Dream also claimed to travel to places "that the Endless dare not travel to".

Those are the realms of Father Time and Mother Night and possibly the City of Stars

Dream also used his Father's Speculum and the dreams of a 1000 to reset Destiny's Book, albeit this weakened him greatly. Said 1000 dreams made The Presence, and The Presence admits himself that he was no more than an idea.

Doesnt really mean Dream is more powerful than the Presence though, as those dreams also shapes Dream himself

And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him

Though you could argue that Dream is more "primal" than the Presence

I think Overture Sandman >>> Main Sandman

They're the same Dream, Overture was just the prelude of the main Sandman series
 
>Supposed to be Yog-Sothoth

Outside the context of CM, that isn't as impressive as you might think. All I'm saying is, when semantics are put aside, how many levels of 1-A can Dream defeat? How many levels does he rise to? If he doesn't explicitly transcend anywhere near the number of levels Hypnos does, I can't see them being comparable at all.

Above all gods and mortals again, doesn't mean much outside the context of its verse.

And something merely being Lovecraftian in nature doesn't make it necessarily on the same level as CM; take Demonbane for instance. There's nowhere NEAR the same level of complexity in relation to levels of existence as there is in CM.
 
How many levels does he rise to? If he doesn't explicitly transcend anywhere near the number of levels Hypnos does, I can't see them being comparable at all.

Dream represents the concept of dreaming and imagination in DC vertigo which transcends everything, it can effect even the Void itself and create beings like the Presence who can create beings who can affect the Void

See this thread as how powerful the power of dreams and thoughts are in DC

But as I said before Dream doesnt scale to this as he himself gets shaped by the very thing that he embodies, but the thing is you wont be able to completely destroy Dream without erasing the concept that he embody

I didnt say that Dream will win (which is why I countered the guy voting for Dream)or that he's superior to him because he's supposed to be Yog-Sothoth, its just a fun fact that I decided to share. The reason why I made this much was because of the similiraties between the two.

Above all gods and mortals again, doesn't mean much outside the context of its verse.

Dream is both above and beneath gods and mortals and that includes The Presence

Dream shapes the dreams and minds of mortals but their dreams also shapes him along with everything

Which is why he is both below and above them

And something merely being Lovecraftian in nature doesn't make it necessarily on the same level as CM; take Demonbane for instance. There's nowhere NEAR the same level of complexity in relation to levels of existence as there is in CM.

I know

Not arguing for Dream being comparable or anything just that it could possibly lead to a stalemate for the same reason as Death vs CK
 
Hypnos. His 1-A seems higher.


Now, During The Novel named Hypnos, We have Seen Hypnos Ascend to Planes above Planes above Planes etc etc, and even the lowest Planes are completely above Time and space, which is shown as infinite dimensional, beyond all shadow and illusions, which we established as 1-A, ascending Beyond all Thought and Entity, Mathematics, Logic, Concepts etc. as Hypnos is on his quest to Conquer all Existence, He Goes To The Realm Beyond The First Gate, I.e Where the Elder Gods Reside, simply by Catching Their Damn Gaze, his entire body and spirit is destroyed, yes, a being above all this, Got killed by a Stare, Compared to the beings beyond the first Gate, the beings beyond the Second Gate are immeasurably more infinite than those beyond the first, and the beings beyond the first are immeasurably more infinite than beings who can conquer all of existence, including infinite levels of Outerversal space.


"And when he opened his immense, sunken, and wildly luminous black eyes I knew he would be thenceforth my only friend—the only friend of one who had never possessed a friend before—for I saw that such eyes must have looked fully upon the grandeur and the terror of realms beyond normal consciousness and reality; realms which I had cherished in fancy, but vainly sought. So as I drove the crowd away I told him he must come home with me and be my teacher and leader in unfathomed mysteries, and he assented without speaking a word." -

"Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men. The cosmos of our waking knowledge, born from such an universe as a bubble is born from the pipe of a jester, touches it only as such a bubble may touch its sardonic source when sucked back by the jester's whim. Men of learning suspect it little, and ignore it mostly. Wise men have interpreted dreams, and the gods have laughed. One man with Oriental eyes has said that all time and space are relative, and men have laughed. But even that man with Oriental eyes has done no more than suspect. I had wished and tried to do more than suspect, and my friend had tried and partly succeeded. Then we both tried together, and with exotic drugs courted terrible and forbidden dreams in the tower studio chamber of the old manor-house in hoary Kent." - Hypnos

"Among the agonies of these after days is that chief of torments—inarticulateness. What I learned and saw in those hours of impious exploration can never be told—for want of symbols or suggestions in any language. I say this because from first to last our discoveries partook only of the nature of sensations; sensations correlated with no impression which the nervous system of normal humanity is capable of receiving. They were sensations, yet within them lay unbelievable elements of time and space—things which at bottom possess no distinct and definite existence. Human utterance can best convey the general character of our experiences by calling them plungings or soarings; for in every period of revelation some part of our minds broke boldly away from all that is real and present, rushing a├½rially along shocking, unlighted, and fear-haunted abysses, and occasionally tearing through certain well-marked and typical obstacles describable only as viscous, uncouth clouds or vapours. In these black and bodiless flights we were sometimes alone and sometimes together. When we were together, my friend was always far ahead; I could comprehend his presence despite the absence of form by a species of pictorial memory whereby his face appeared to me, golden from a strange light and frightful with its weird beauty, its anomalously youthful cheeks, its burning eyes, its Olympian brow, and its shadowing hair and growth of beard."

"Of the progress of time we kept no record, for time had become to us the merest illusion. I know only that there must have been something very singular involved, since we came at length to marvel why we did not grow old. Our discourse was unholy, and always hideously ambitious—no god or daemon could have aspired to discoveries and conquests like those which we planned in whispers. I shiver as I speak of them, and dare not be explicit; though I will say that my friend once wrote on paper a wish which he dared not utter with his tongue, and which made me burn the paper and look affrightedly out of the window at the spangled night sky. I will hint—only hint—that he had designs which involved the rulership of the visible universe and more; designs whereby the earth and the stars would move at his command, and the destinies of all living things be his. I affirm—I swear—that I had no share in these extreme aspirations. Anything my friend may have said or written to the contrary must be erroneous, for I am no man of strength to risk the unmentionable warfare in unmentionable spheres by which alone one might achieve success."

"There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously known. My friend was vastly in advance as we plunged into this awesome ocean of virgin aether, and I could see the sinister exultation on his floating, luminous, too youthful memory-face. Suddenly that face became dim and quickly disappeared, and in a brief space I found myself projected against an obstacle which I could not penetrate. It was like the others, yet incalculably denser; a sticky, clammy mass, if such terms can be applied to analogous qualities in a non-material sphere."

Then came one January of fog and rain, when money ran low and drugs were hard to buy. My statues and ivory heads were all sold, and I had no means to purchase new materials, or energy to fashion them even had I possessed them. We suffered terribly, and on a certain night my friend sank into a deep-breathing sleep from which I could not awaken him. I can recall the scene now—the desolate, pitch-black garret studio under the eaves with the rain beating down; the ticking of the lone clock; the fancied ticking of our watches as they rested on the dressing-table; the creaking of some swaying shutter in a remote part of the house; certain distant city noises muffled by fog and space; and worst of all the deep, steady, sinister breathing of my friend on the couch—a rhythmical breathing which seemed to measure moments of supernal fear and agony for his spirit as it wandered in spheres forbidden, unimagined, and hideously remote.

The tension of my vigil became oppressive, and a wild train of trivial impressions and associations thronged through my almost unhinged mind. I heard a clock strike somewhere—not ours, for that was not a striking clock—and my morbid fancy found in this a new starting-point for idle wanderings. Clocks—time—space—infinity—and then my fancy reverted to the local as I reflected that even now, beyond the roof and the fog and the rain and the atmosphere, Corona Borealis was rising in the northeast. Corona Borealis, which my friend had appeared to dread, and whose scintillant semicircle of stars must even now be glowing unseen through the measureless abysses of aether. All at once my feverishly sensitive ears seemed to detect a new and wholly distinct component in the soft medley of drug-magnified sounds—a low and damnably insistent whine from very far away; droning, clamouring, mocking, calling, from the northeast." - Hypnos

"But it was not that distant whine which robbed me of my faculties and set upon my soul such a seal of fright as may never in life be removed; not that which drew the shrieks and excited the convulsions which caused lodgers and police to break down the door. It was not what I heard, but what I saw; for in that dark, locked, shuttered, and curtained room there appeared from the black northeast corner a shaft of horrible red-gold light—a shaft which bore with it no glow to disperse the darkness, but which streamed only upon the recumbent head of the troubled sleeper, bringing out in hideous duplication the luminous and strangely youthful memory-face as I had known it in dreams of abysmal space and unshackled time, when my friend had pushed behind the barrier to those secret, innermost, and forbidden caverns of nightmare.

And as I looked, I beheld the head rise, the black, liquid, and deep-sunken eyes open in terror, and the thin, shadowed lips part as if for a scream too frightful to be uttered. There dwelt in that ghastly and flexible face, as it shone bodiless, luminous, and rejuvenated in the blackness, more of stark, teeming, brain-shattering fear than all the rest of heaven and earth has ever revealed to me. No word was spoken amidst the distant sound that grew nearer and nearer, but as I followed the memory-face's mad stare along that cursed shaft of light to its source, the source whence also the whining came, I too saw for an instant what it saw, and fell with ringing ears in that fit of shrieking and epilepsy which brought the lodgers and the police. Never could I tell, try as I might, what it actually was that I saw; nor could the still face tell, for although it must have seen more than I did, it will never speak again. But always I shall guard against the mocking and insatiate Hypnos, lord of sleep, against the night sky, and against the mad ambitions of knowledge and philosophy." - Hypnos
 
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