Battle for the 4th Strongest Non-Smurf 9-B

[Soupywolf5]

Aburatori vs Henry Stickmin

Obviously both are 9-B (First Key Henry with all of his equipment and third Key Aburatori), Speed is Equalized

AP: The Aburatori is stronger than baseline, or 15 Kilojoules, Henry Stickmin is 20.766 Megajoules

The Defender:

The Challenger:

They Share the Spot:

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

What does Aburatori start with? has a thing for Denying Henry's "Reset"?

 

[Soupywolf5]

What does Aburatori start with? has a thing for Denying Henry's "Reset"?

Looking through the quotes on his page, it seems like he mostly spams fish skewers in a fight (Also making this made me realize Henry's page is still missing several abilities that he gets through equipment), I don't really see anything that can deny Henry's timehax, since his own timeline screwery gets negated by Henry's acausality and destiny hax can only achieve "possible" outcomes without Aburatori sacrificing all of his powers to achieve a normally impossible outcome (And the quotes supplied on his page make that seem like it'd be extraordinarily out of character to do)

 

[Soupywolf5]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Henry has no way to ever find the Aburatori, given that it can only be found if it wants to be or if you are destined to find it. Even if he did, there are good chances it would just be a temporal clone, while the real Aburatori chills 3 days in the future.

And even if Henry is acausal his equipment isn't, so bye bye to that right away.

Ultimately, Henry gets fish hooked by the hook of some clone he was destined to not see coming or gets his powers stolen, which consequently gets him killed.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Henry has no way to ever find the Aburatori, given that it can only be found if it wants to be or if you are destined to find it. Even if he did, there are good chances it would just be a temporal clone, while the real Aburatori chills 3 days in the future.

And even if Henry is acausal his equipment isn't, so bye bye to that right away.

Ultimately, Henry gets fish hooked by the hook of some clone he was destined to not see coming or gets his powers stolen, which consequently gets him killed.

I’m like 90% sure that SBA renders this moot, since that (The chilling in the future part) sounds like something that would require prep to do

Henry’s equipment actually is acausal, since the routes that require time travel also require his equipment to get through, and none of that’s affected

The fish hooks need to be able to damage Henry to affect him, which isn’t happening with the ~1380x AP gap (Which Henry can amp even further with his equipment), and the absorption requires the Aburatori to physically defeat Henry first

 

[DontTalkDT]

I’m like 90% sure that SBA renders this moot, since that (The chilling in the future part) sounds like something that would require prep to do

Like, 0.1s of prep maybe. With 4km starting distance and destiny on his side not further difficult. Especially with Henry being unable to find him.

Henry’s equipment actually is acausal, since the routes that require time travel also require his equipment to get through, and none of that’s affected

Only those parts of his equipment are acausal then... and then there is nothing really stopping the Aburatori from just disarming him with a little help of destiny.

The fish hooks need to be able to damage Henry to affect him, which isn’t happening with the ~1380x AP gap (Which Henry can amp even further with his equipment), and the absorption requires the Aburatori to physically defeat Henry first

The fish hooks only need a microscopic scratch to do so. Pretty sure Henry has enough showings of getting hurt by less for that scratch to happen.
The absorption doesn't require the Aburatori to defeat him, actually. He didn't defeat Yukari either.

---

Also let me clarify one thing: Creating new destinies isn't out of character for the Aburatori. The entire reason he wanted to have Yukari's power so much is to use that particular aspect of it. It's also not a big deal for him to lose it. If he does he can actually just steal it from past Yukari again.
So destiny gg is a win con for Aburatori, too.

 

[Lou_change]

Henry not finding him would be an incon if I recall.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Like, 0.1s of prep maybe. With 4km starting distance and destiny on his side not further difficult. Especially for Henry being unable to find him.


Only those parts of his equipment are acausal then... and then there is nothing really stopping the Aburatori from just disarming him with a little help of destiny.


The fish hooks only need a microscopic scratch to do so. Pretty sure Henry has enough showings of getting hurt by less for that scratch to happen.
The absorption doesn't require the Aburatori to defeat him, actually. He didn't defeat Yukari either.

---

Also let me clarify one thing: Creating new destinies isn't out of character for the Aburatori. The entire reason he wanted to have Yukari's power so much is to use that particular aspect of it. It's also not a big deal for him to lose it. If he does he can actually just steal it from past Yukari again.
So destiny gg is a win con for Aburatori, too.

Alright, but if Henry defeats the Aburatori clone that is there and the main one doesn’t come back, that’s still Henry’s win since the Aburatori’s effectively self-BFRing themself

the description of the destiny hax on his profile makes it sound like he can’t just do whatever he wants and Henry at his peak greatly out skills and outsmarts the Aburatori, and Henry’s main win-con (Morality Hax) doesn’t even come from his equipment

Henry having lower showings in his own games doesn’t matter. We’re using 9-B+ Henry with 9-B+ dura, so he’s not even being remotely phased by baseline attacks, and the quotes on his page says otherwise, the Aburatori himself says that he needs to defeat Yukari to absorb her (And looking at the profile again, his absorption is noted to be via his timeline hax, meaning it wouldn’t be affecting Henry due to his Acausality anyway), not to mention Henry’s own time hax can activate before Henry is actually harmed, so he could just hit the redo button before he’s killed

The description given on his profile sounds like it gets rid of all of his abilities (As in sayonara to the time, space and hook hax too), not just the destiny hax

 

[Soupywolf5]

Anyways, gonna be busy for a bit, so it’ll be a while before I can respond again

 

[DontTalkDT]

Henry not finding him would be an incon if I recall.

Only if the Aburatori couldn't defeat Henry in some way, which it could.

Alright, but if Henry defeats the Aburatori clone that is there and the main one doesn’t come back, that’s still Henry’s win since the Aburatori’s effectively self-BFRing themself

The Aburatori can come back or send clones back as much as it wants. Sooo... that wouldn't happen.

the description of the destiny hax on his profile makes it sound like he can’t just do whatever he wants and Henry at his peak greatly out skills and outsmarts the Aburatori, and Henry’s main win-con (Morality Hax) doesn’t even come from his equipment

Without sacrificing his power? No, he can't do whatever he wants. He can achieve absolutely anything that is possible, though. And Henry dies or is incapacitated like 20 times in a normal playthrough. Getting him killed and taking his stuff isn't further difficult if you can make all the bad ends happen.

Heck, remember that Aburatori teleporting and time travelling to steal tech and killing Henry with that is a possible destiny. Getting his hands on Henry's equipment by stealing it from a bad end timeline would be easy.

With sacrificing his power? Aburatori can make impossible things happen, so he kinda can do whatever he wants.

And let me add that Henry consistently doesn't make the best choices... and that's when he has like 4 options. Here he has like 100 options and is destiny haxxed into the worst ones. How many times has Henry accidentally incapacitated himself again?

Henry having lower showings in his own games doesn’t matter. We’re using 9-B+ Henry with 9-B+ dura, so he’s not even being remotely phased by baseline attacks, and the quotes on his page says otherwise, the Aburatori himself says that he needs to defeat Yukari to absorb her (And looking at the profile again, his absorption is noted to be via his timeline hax, meaning it wouldn’t be affecting Henry due to his Acausality anyway), not to mention Henry’s own time hax can activate before Henry is actually harmed, so he could just hit the redo button before he’s killed

We're not using fanfiction versions of characters here. Him having 9-B+ dura means that's the peak of what he can tank, not that he can't be harmed at all by anything lower if he has demonstrated being harmed by it. There's a reason we have no universal multiplier for oneshotting and stuff, since that varies between verses. In the same way, at which attack potency you can still cause a scratch varies and in Henry's case, 9-B is enough to cause a scratch by what we're shown.

His acausality wouldn't make the absorption fail in itself. It might let him survive it but then the Aburatori would still have absorbed his past selves powers, giving him all advantages in this fight, since he from then on is Henry in better.
Although, honestly, I don't think basic Type 1 Acausality, i.e. Time Paradox Immunity, lets you resist the Aburatori's absorption. The Aburatori isn't simply causing a time paradox, he is shredding the historical data of the world to achieve the desired outcome. It pretty explicitly goes beyond just changing the past to paradox someone.

Henry's timehax could activate... or it couldn't. If the possibility that he does not manage to do that exists, which it does, then destiny hax makes things go in Aburatori's favour. Even if it does, it gives Henry no advantage. He would just end up in the same Dead End again. Not unlike the time with the big laser were he just loaded into an unwinnable situation.

The description given on his profile sounds like it gets rid of all of his abilities (As in sayonara to the time, space and hook hax too), not just the destiny hax

Well, you're wrong. It doesn't get rid of all his abilities. It also doesn't say that. It specifically says those powers, those refering to "perceive and control destiny" mentioned in the prior sentence.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Without sacrificing his power? No, he can't do whatever he wants. He can achieve absolutely anything that is possible, though. And Henry dies or is incapacitated like 20 times in a normal playthrough. Getting him killed and taking his stuff isn't further difficult if you can make all the bad ends happen.

Heck, remember that Aburatori teleporting and time travelling to steal tech and killing Henry with that is a possible destiny. Getting his hands on Henry's equipment by stealing it from a bad end timeline would be easy.

With sacrificing his power? Aburatori can make impossible things happen, so he kinda can do whatever he wants.

Would this actually be in-character to do though? Also most of Henry's equipment is in his hammerspace, so the Aburatori wouldn't even get anything besides whatever Henry had already pulled out when he died (And that's assuming the reset doesn't trigger before he actually dies or before he comes to any real harm, which is a very real possibility)

It's possible sure, but the Aburatori isn't omniscient, and he's not going to be using it to absolute perfection at all times (Honestly, looking through the quotes on his profile, what does he even do with it in-character?)

And let me add that Henry consistently doesn't make the best choices... and that's when he has like 4 options. Here he has like 100 options and is destiny haxxed into the worst ones. How many times has Henry accidentally incapacitated himself again?

Plenty of times, which he then resets from, but that's assuming that the Aburatori is perfect with his destiny hax and knows exactly which options will be the worst for Henry (And due to his supernatural luck, the worst option is sometimes the option that actually seems like it'd be the best pick)

We're not using fanfiction versions of characters here. Him having 9-B+ dura means that's the peak of what he can tank, not that he can't be harmed at all by anything lower if he has demonstrated being harmed by it. There's a reason we have no universal multiplier for oneshotting and stuff, since that varies between verses. In the same way, at which attack potency you can still cause a scratch varies and in Henry's case, 9-B is enough to cause a scratch by what we're shown.

His acausality wouldn't make the absorption fail in itself. It might let him survive it but then the Aburatori would still have absorbed his past selves powers, giving him all advantages in this fight, since he from then on is Henry in better.
Although, honestly, I don't think basic Type 1 Acausality, i.e. Time Paradox Immunity, lets you resist the Aburatori's absorption. The Aburatori isn't simply causing a time paradox, he is shredding the historical data of the world to achieve the desired outcome. It pretty explicitly goes beyond just changing the past to paradox someone.

Henry's timehax could activate... or it couldn't. If the possibility that he does not manage to do that exists, which it does, then destiny hax makes things go in Aburatori's favour. Even if it does, it gives Henry no advantage. He would just end up in the same Dead End again. Not unlike the time with the big laser were he just loaded into an unwinnable situation.

I'm not using a fanfiction version, if we used every instance he's ever been hurt by anything, than his dura wouldn't even be 10-B, we don't utilize every single instance a character has been hurt by something ever, because a vast majority of the time those don't fit with the character's consistent tier, Henry having 9-B+ dura means exactly that, he has 9-B+ dura, and we treat him as only able to be hurt by things at least close to that level, and it stands to reason that an attack over a thousand times weaker than that wouldn't be able to hurt him, sure there's no exact number agreed upon to no-sell something, but I'm pretty sure nobody would argue that over 1,300 times would allow you to do so

Type 1 isn't just time paradox immunity, it's being unaffected by changes to the past, which is exactly where Henry's Acausality comes from, shredding the past is still an alteration to the past, which type 1 would let you ignore, plus the timeline shredding would require him to time travel a bunch, which he'd have no reason to do against Henry unless he lost, in which case he wouldn't want to go back in the first place, since Henry's win-cons are Morality or Mind hax (Which would make the Aburatori an ally to Henry) and Possession

And if the Aburatori does manage to absorb Henry's powers, than he's more of a worse Henry than a better one, since we have no reason to assume he knows exactly what all of Henry's abilities are, not to mention he still doesn't have a way to bypass Henry's timehax

Also that example you provided isn't an unwinnable situation

 

[DontTalkDT]

Would this actually be in-character to do though? Also most of Henry's equipment is in his hammerspace, so the Aburatori wouldn't even get anything besides whatever Henry had already pulled out when he died (And that's assuming the reset doesn't trigger before he actually dies or before he comes to any real harm, which is a very real possibility)

It's possible sure, but the Aburatori isn't omniscient, and he's not going to be using it to absolute perfection at all times (Honestly, looking through the quotes on his profile, what does he even do with it in-character?)

Part of the destiny manipulation stuff is the ability to perceive the flow of destiny and use that knowledge to guide you to the desired outcome. So, in-character, the Aburatori can take whichever actions that lead him to his desired outcome. He doesn't even need to know why he's doing it. So yes, it's in character. And hammerspace can be worked around. He could for example get it before Henry puts them there (he must have acquired the stuff at some point, after all). Or he could take something of a bad end, go back in time, and take something of another bad end.

Plenty of times, which he then resets from, but that's assuming that the Aburatori is perfect with his destiny hax and knows exactly which options will be the worst for Henry (And due to his supernatural luck, the worst option is sometimes the option that actually seems like it'd be the best pick)

Weren't the bad ends canon timelines? I don't think him resetting from all bad ends is canon. He can reset from some (as the laser shows), but not all I believe. Like, aren't there bad ends where he goes to jail or something?

But yeah, as said, Aburatori can feel destiny out to see which option would be best for him and make that happen.

I'm not using a fanfiction version, if we used every instance he's ever been hurt by anything, than his dura wouldn't even be 10-B, we don't utilize every single instance a character has been hurt by something ever, because a vast majority of the time those don't fit with the character's consistent tier, Henry having 9-B+ dura means exactly that, he has 9-B+ dura, and we treat him as only able to be hurt by things at least close to that level, and it stands to reason that an attack over a thousand times weaker than that wouldn't be able to hurt him, sure there's no exact number agreed upon to no-sell something, but I'm pretty sure nobody would argue that over 1,300 times would allow you to do so

If the character has consistent showings of being hurt by weaker things and we are talking about literally just doing a scratch I would very much say that can happen. The number to no-sell something is not agreed upon, since the agreed upon fact is that it varies between franchises. In this franchise the range of things the character can be hurt by and things he can still survive seems particularly large.

It's not like I'm arguing that he can be harmed by all kind of tier 10 attacks to a large degree, but I don't see him as consistently being unscratchable by baseline 9-B things.

Type 1 isn't just time paradox immunity, it's being unaffected by changes to the past, which is exactly where Henry's Acausality comes from, shredding the past is still an alteration to the past, which type 1 would let you ignore, plus the timeline shredding would require him to time travel a bunch, which he'd have no reason to do against Henry unless he lost, in which case he wouldn't want to go back in the first place, since Henry's win-cons are Morality or Mind hax (Which would make the Aburatori an ally to Henry) and Possession

What if the Aburatori goes towards the future and then shreds the present with his time clones?

Since the Aburatori would attack Henry only with clones, Henry really never gets his wincons off. But as said, the Aburatori would be motivated to try what is necessary due to destiny.

And if the Aburatori does manage to absorb Henry's powers, than he's more of a worse Henry than a better one, since we have no reason to assume he knows exactly what all of Henry's abilities are, not to mention he still doesn't have a way to bypass Henry's timehax

Also that example you provided isn't an unwinnable situation

It's not an unwinnable situation, but resetting doesn't help in in that case. Just like in this one, as resetting time doesn't change the fact that he has no wincon.

The Aburatori doesn't really need to know how the devices work cause... destiny. He would just press the right buttons by mere chance, which is better than what Henry does, really.



Any case, Aburatori can just power sacrifice to win and you haven't really given any counter-strategy to that yet.