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Battle for strongest non-smurf 6-B (Tomoe Misumi vs Yomoji Shinsei)
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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Alright, so what prevents Yomoji from turning her into a pile of salt?
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Maybe say what's the first move and the like of the "weird jesus" is DT.
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Just to be clear, I'm calling him that because that's a canonically accurate description.
Anyway, we haven't seen him fight seriously yet. From precedence, I would say 1.4 trillion ton meteor, although that was explicitly him fooling around not trying to fight.
Against someone he actually wants to kill (and that has no divine rank for protection) I can see him lead with something like the salt transformation. That's what he did to one of his believers when he ticked him off.
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Her passive petrification, paralysis, Madness, and semi-passive power mimicry/Info Analysis. She can also turn him and his magic into illusions, so there's that.
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Resisted, resisted, resisted and probably ineffective.
Let's start with the power mimicry. Yomoji's abilities are authorities, which are actually superior to human magic. But even human magic is more than just basic magic.
Magic and Authorities in Godless Planet deal with manipulating Ether. Ether is the fundamental component of all things, including but not limited to matter, energy, space and the laws of nature themselves. It is, in fact, one entire level higher (more abstract) than the laws governing reality. It grants all things their properties, being essentially a very high-grade form of information (and manipulating it hence information manip type 2).
While spells manipulating Ether can be learned, Authorities are better and inherent to each god as they are formed from their mythologies.
So that's what the power mimicry would need to have showings of copying and what info analysis would need to analyze.
Now, gods have a Divine Rank. Divine Ranks function as resistance against everything of those without higher divine rank. In particular, everything Ether Manip. related.
Let me say that the fact that it functions against Authorities already makes it far above baseline resistance due to its qualities. On one hand due to the priorly mentioned fact that Ether Manip is above laws and stuff and can hence just ignore those things, but also because Authorities can't be negated or be completely resisted. That goes so far that someone with an Authority that grants immunity to instant death facing someone with an authority applying instant death, would basically be an immovable object vs irresistible force situation. Neither ability can fail. That's why in such situations the concept of contradiction allowance is invoked to decide what wins out, a concept otherwise known to deal with logical/conceptual contradictions.
Yet Divine Rank can still resist those authorities so much that their effective becomes unnoticeable.
Now, there are several levels of divine rank and those of higher resist attacks of those of lower divine rank and, other way around, those of lower don't resist attacks from those of higher rank. So each level can be said to be at least 1 resistance layer.
There are 15 levels of divine rank. These are World, Space, Heaven, Planet, Realm, Region, Country, Metropolis, City, Town, Village, House, Room, Hidden, and Empty, ordered from highest to lowest rank.
Yomoji has the highest rank, World Class, and hence correspondingly high resistance.
Petrification and Paralysis (well, if it's physical paralysis) fall under subsets of matter and energy manipulation resistance wise. They are attempts to affect the body of a god, i.e. manipulate the Ether of the Ether construct that is a god. As such they are resisted by Divine Rank.
Madness is a subtype of mind manipulation and hence resisted for pretty much the same reason.
And turning stuff in illusions is probably equalised to reality warping... unless you wish to make an argument that turning things to illusions is better reality warping than what you can get from manipulating Ether. Since the techniques of gods can't be negated I doubt she can turn his attacks into illusions, unless she can affect something on the level of abstractness that Ether has.
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You should really put resistance to Petrification nd paralysis on the profile if he has it. Matter Matter Manipulation resistance really isn't enough evidence on its own imo. It's not the same kinda power, just because they both alter someone's body doesn't mean they're comparable. Like even resisting having your atoms split is not the same as resisting heat and cold. It's a completely different process.
Turning things into illusions is not reality warping; well it is, but reality waring as a concept is so broad that's it's kinda useless to use that as your sticking point. If anything it's more like Immersion which is a subset of subjective reality, which I would indeed argue grants resistance to it (Also I'm 100% sure Immersion wasn't a serious page at the time of making the profile, and if made today it would probably just be considered Immersion, I actually remember having a hard time trying to classify it and talking to some mods who told me it's SR)
Also; it's not Pnull so she doesn't have to overcome his negation resistance. She just makes him and his magic not real anymore.
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I also remember having a discussion on memory reading with someone else and why even with good Mind resistance it would still work (If you even consider Mind resistance a viable defense against memory reading) There's like 40 million minds and 7+ layers of resistance behind Makoto's mind resistance and Tomoe's memory reading works fine on him. And if you include fear in all of that there's legit a scaling chain for mind/memory/fear stuff that goes twenty layers deep.
Small example: Shiki's hypnotic spell<<<Fear Aura<<<<<<<<Dragon Roar<<Hibiki's Empath<Tomoe's illusions<<<<<<<<Tomoki's Charm<<Tomoe's Memory Reading.
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The profile lists "all subtypes of those" for that reason. Listing every possible ability that affects the physical body would just be... a lot. Hence this seems like the better solution.
Yeah, but this isn't just splitting atoms and resisting heat, which are two different things. They are Ether and Ether is the description of their existence. Heat and Atoms are also Ether. Turning something to stone, is the process of reshaping the Ether of their body from the usual mold into a stone mold. And that's what they resist.
Take an abstract existence with resistance to concept manipulation. It will inevitably resist most attempts to change it, because any change you can possibly do to it would have to change its concept, since it is nothing besides its concept.
This is the same. Gods are made from Ether and nothing but Ether. (Well, and concepts) The matter their body is made from? Ether. So what is changing that matter in some way? A Manipulation to the state their Ether is in. What do they resist? Getting their Ether Manipulated.
To get back to your initial example. This isn't splitting atoms vs resisting heat. This is more like a character is stated to resist any attempt to change its structure at a quantum level... and resisting heat. If the heat changes its structure (by melting it, for example) then obviously the former would give it resistance to that.
Mind you, petrification powers actually exist in the verse anyway. Enkidu has it.
Remember that Ether is a level more abstract than the laws of nature, though. From what I see she doesn't even have showings of turning the laws of nature into illusions, so I don't think she has what it takes to affect something more abstract. So she can't just turn his powers into illusions. (In the first place, she can't exactly react to being turned to salt, I think, as she would be dead before realizing what's happening)
What turning him to an illusion is concerned... well, he can resist things like Eshita's spear of the underworld, which erases things at an Ether/Information (Type 2) level. Personally, I think that's close enough. As long as his Ether power remains he could probably also still use his authority as long as he exists as an illusion. He would have to be completely erased to be dead... well, actually not dead because then he would still exist as a virtual manifestation, but at that point he would be incapacitated at least.
In any case: Even if effective it would come down to who dusts the other first.
And how many of those match spells are so absolute that they are impossible to resist even by law manipulation standards and basically require the invoking of a logical paradox to resists? Like, Yomoji is 15 layers above that not just 15 layers. Quality is to be taken into account here.
Not that mind reading in particular would help much. Yomoji can match Balancer who can also practically read minds with his pseudo-mind reading. And even knowing that he is going to turn her into salt... there is nothing she can do against it, as she has no powers that can deal with something on the Ether level of abstraction. And it's thought based at that, so when he decides to do it it is already too late to react.
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Actually, now that I think of it, Gods can set up Combat Barriers which virtualize all that happens in them. (You can find a detailed description in Yomoji's profile)
I would argue turning something virtual and turning something into an illusion is actually pretty close to each other, so the illusion turning should be covered by Yomoji's resistance to anything other gods can do.
I would argue turning something virtual and turning something into an illusion is actually pretty close to each other, so the illusion turning should be covered by Yomoji's resistance to anything other gods can do.
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The manipulation is only provably via ether though, so you can't say they resist every possible thing just because they resist everything in verse (Even if they resist quantum level MM). Tsuki ga characters like Makoto and Haruka have similar statements of being able to resist all magic, in which case, law manipulation is in this verse too. Tomoe herself has Law Manipulation within Asora and can dictate and manipulate the laws of physics to limit opponents' abilities and for people who can't resist at all, flat out change their abilities. I wouldn't then try to extrapolate that to "Makoto and Haruka therefore have resistance to every possible alteration to their laws of physics via every possible power."
It's essentially a NLF argument. We can talk resistance layers, but once you start going into all encompassing invulnerability it gets weird. Even my suggestion for Shield Hero characters having limited invulnerability only really applied to physical durability negation (Like Matter stuff and heart crushing)
The petrification rabbit hole for Tsuki ga characters also goes so deep and specific that truthfully I doubt there's any 3D characters without smurf resistances who would resist it, unless we're talking about maybe DnD or some weird RPG where they have almost every ability possible (Like seriously, who on earth has resistance to having their body, soul, and powers turned to stone which all bypasses at least 3+ layers of base resistance!? That's insane.), but Tomoe isn't one of the people who has it's more OP versions so I won't argue it here. But I'll at least mention that others in 6-B have it.
Magic sorta already includes the non-physical/abstract. Though "Laws of nature" as you describe them don't exist in Tsuki ga, since it's a different work; but if it's just about abstract supernatural forces... then yeah her turning it into an illusion should work. Since magic itself can be an abstract supernatural force, Tomoe's own powers are proof of that already.
Resisting being erased directly is not really resisting being turned into an illusion. Even traditional EE resistance shouldn't save you from Tomoe's EE because her EE isn't an ability per-se, but due to your own now illusory physiology.
She can also reality warp which is turning illusions into reality, so he'd resist that if she tried it on him directly. But unless he can null her stuff her mimicry via it should work out fine.
The memory reading point (Not mind reading btw) is that her knowing all your moves means she can now recreate them via reality warping. The moment she sees Yomiji she'll literally know and have access to his entire move set. As long as it isn't some special skill completely outside of her nature.
Isn't the world itself fundamentally virtual/information based via being made entirely of ether? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'm not saying they resist everything. I'm saying they resist everything that is just composed out of Ether. Use something not made out of Ether, e.g. concepts, and they wouldn't resist it.
That's also the difference to your magic example. You have magic that manipulates laws, but the laws aren't magic in themselves. In Godless Planet the laws aren't merely manipulated via Ether, the laws in themselves are Ether.
No matter which ability you manipulate laws with, as the laws are made out of Ether you would be manipulating Ether. It's not possible to do one without the other, as they are the same thing.
It's like someone with resistance to spatial cutting will resist spatial cutting from both magic spatial cutting and psychic spatial cutting. Sure, the powers used for the spatial cutting might be different, but the thing they manipulated, space, is the same. Same with any power that attempts to manipulate a part of them that is Ether.
Or see it like this: Every god is its own mold i.e. the Ether construct that defines it into existence. If you by some miraculous means would be able to change their body without changing that Ether mold (which should be impossible, because again Ether and matter is one and the same), the mold would just define them into existence again as they were before.
Godless Planet characters have. Well, the former two at least. The latter is debatable, depending on whether the Ether change they induce counts as the power or the ability to make that Ether change happen as the power.
When I mean laws I more mean things like the laws of physics and stuff, rather than magic that exists in form of mana (or similar) and follows certain rules (i.e. laws) in itself. And I mean, Ether is one layer more abstract than laws. So even if we counted magic as law for some reason it would still not suffice.
I really doubt she can mimicry powers that work on a level of abstractness that's beyond her. That's like saying that she can mimicry Type 1 Concept Manip.
Fell like Ether Manipulation techniques that literally only he can use, as manifestation of the abrahamistic god, would be in the category of skills completely outside of her nature.
Ether Manipulation, in general, is probably beyond her but even Balancer, the likely most powerful Ether Manipulator in the verse, employs the gods exactly because their Authorities as gods accomplish things he himself couldn't.
(and if she started acting like a god she would get hit hard by historical rank which would make all of that pointless, but I don't think we would get that far...)
To some extent yes. Balancer often links Ether to being Information (perhaps because he's an AI). That said, the Combat Barrier is noted to turn the area inside in particular virtual. (and while the world is said to be made from information it's never said to be virtual)
So the vitality inside the barrier is different than that from just the universe. It's specifically done so that anything that happens inside in the end never happened. I.e. they can fight without ending up destroying the environment and permanently killing each other.
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I also doubt she can mimicry everything, like, if that was the case then she should already had recreated the dimensional travel of the living door, and since be able to travel to japan is one of the objetives of Makoto she would do so if she really was able to copy anything.
The Ether thing also sound really beyond what she can do, like, it sound like the god tier level authorities of the verse and that's something she is nowhere near able to replicate.
I'm like 30 chapters behind the current point of Tsuki Ga (the last I readed was the fan clubs part), but unless there happened a lot of things she can't do anything like copy his powers or turn them in illusions.
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Yes, she can't recreate everything, but that's because her magic power is really limited compared to god tiers. Like, if Tomoe had anywhere near the Magic Power Makoto had she could, more than likely, do whatever she wanted. The stated reason as to why Makoto could do things like resist all magic (except lightning) via armor is because of his insane magic power, and even that's a little draining to him iirc. This is even more evident considering these powers of hers literally get more potent when Makoto gives her magic power. So her inability to copy all abilities is literally just a factor of her lack of MP, not a factor of her powers themselves not being potent enough to copy everything.
Also living door (Who I forgot about tbh) was way before she could even copy stuff. Like hundreds of chapters before then more in the beginning of the novel compared to this point, also the same applies to what I said above, she wouldn't have the maryoku to do that.
Point being, she can't copy the abilities of people who absolutely dwarf her level of power like Makoto or super special elements which neg all magic even armor like lightning, but everything else should be fair game. Tomoe is actually stronger than Yomoji here so, magic power shouldn't be a problem.
Edit: BTW do you know what chapter the living door was? I'm trying to remember what even happened back then. I had to have read it like 5 years ago or something.
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I mean, not even when powered by Makoto magic she can do things like recreate the dimensional travel of the living door, or the lightning of the apostle, or even recreate the causality arrow of Makoto, I don't even know if she could recreate skill from the system, the most she have recreated as far I recall is the environment of Japan and that not only consume a absurd amount of magic but let her unable to do anything else, so her copy power is way less impressive than what you make it look.
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To be completely fair, both times he did it Makoto split his magic power among her, shiki, and mio and still had much more than all of them, so it's not like she had Makoto's MP.
Also she really hasn't tried to copy any of that stuff as far as we're aware of, and lightning element is a really special case, if it pierces through even Makoto's magic armor (Which we both know can range anywhere from tier 5 to tier 2) why would Tomoe be able to copy it?
Beyond that, she's hardly even tried to use it. Because she's either going up against weaklings, getting stomped by lightning (Which iirc is an element even the goddess doesn't have control over), or looking at the powers of people way stronger than her.
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If you haven't even tried to copy things as crazy or specials as that ones then is nfl to assume that she can actually copy law manip or fate manip for example, even with a infinite or near infinite amount of magic power like the one from Makoto.
With causality arrow I mean the thing Makoto done against Hibiki and Alte, that seem to me like causality manip.
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Never said she could copy fate manipulation (If she could she would be on the smurf list too kek). I just said that since she herself already has law manipulation in some capacity copying someone else's law manipulation should be possible, especially since that person is weaker than her. Since all the examples of things she couldn't copy include the abilities of people way stronger than her; lightning being something even god tier magic can't handle (Gods literally being the rulers and sometimes creators of universes), I don't think it's fair to use that against her.
If Yomoji himself had fate manipulation I wouldn't even be trying to make an argument here.
I wouldn't say that's causality, just seems like projectile teleportation imo.
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Hmm, well, I guess that in that case can be more or less accepted, though just to confirm when you say more powerful you mean in AP or magic power? Because AP don't matter for that type of things and instead would be the amount magic power since that's the only thing that really matter in the verse.
Didn't the arrows hit even before be fired? With Hibiki I think it was like that, could be wrong since it was some months ago that I readed the chapter.
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I don't know if there's any quantifiable way to judge magic power without relating it to AP, though you're right.
I really don't remember the Hibiki thing. There's too many chapters and most of them feel like filler!! It's one of the reasons why I now consider myself an opponent of the verse.
I'm literally just a Mio and Tomoe fan at this point.
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Eh, there are some ways to judge and compare the amount of magic power, so let's see if DT can say something about it to make things clearer.
Honestly, makes sense, the ******* thing is too slow and after the hiatus there were some decisions regarding characters that made sound my alarms (not the Tomoe and Mio thing, that's one of the things I'm completely happy have happened)
Understable.
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Not that I was unhappy with the Tomoe and Mio thing, more-so I felt it came out of nowhere. I was stuck wondering if it was even really happening like there was no particular narrative event that would cause that situation other than the author just feeling like doing it after coming back from hiatus.
While reading I had a huge rant in a discord server I was in and almost dropped the series and only continued in order to complete the revisions I was in the middle of making.
Okay, I don’t hate the author for this or anything. But like, imagine if in Naruto; team Might Guy went on an A rank mission and were almost killed by some akatsuki member, and as a result they were taken out for a few weeks tops.
And when they come back, both Neji and Rock Lee are married to Tenten for some reason; and they spend a whole chapter talking about that instead of the near death experience they had.
Needless to say, I didn’t like this chapter.
Add Might Guy in there too as one of her husbands.
Kinda killed my suspension of disbelief, I'm about to stop reading this for a while.
The author somehow made a romantic relationship between three main characters which has been built up for almost 300 chapters... feel rushed...
Embarrassing. A disgrace. I'm dropping this.
And when they come back, both Neji and Rock Lee are married to Tenten for some reason; and they spend a whole chapter talking about that instead of the near death experience they had.
Needless to say, I didn’t like this chapter.
Add Might Guy in there too as one of her husbands.
Kinda killed my suspension of disbelief, I'm about to stop reading this for a while.
The author somehow made a romantic relationship between three main characters which has been built up for almost 300 chapters... feel rushed...
Embarrassing. A disgrace. I'm dropping this.
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In my case it was the student couple literally out of nowhere, same with the sudden harem marriage of the adventurer group, that type of thing is what truly raised my alarms, but this is derailment so better continue in ours walls or other place.
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Problem is that Yomoji's law manipulation comes from Ether Manipulation and Ether is 1 level higher in the abstraction hierarchy than laws. So feat of copying law manip doesn't suffice to take Yomoji's power.
Which is for the better. With his powers she would qualify for historical rank and then she is pretty screwed, as her mythology would be only born that moment.
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Alright, so to get back to this: What is Yomoji leads with Salt Transformation? Can Tomoe do anything to prevent that?
It's thought based so she doesn't have time for reactive measures.
It's thought based so she doesn't have time for reactive measures.
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Honestly, this should be a match between Yomoji and like Alte or something. She's more powerful and Tomoe is going to be in revisions sooner or later.
Being that this is a complicated matchup which involves a lot of assumptions as far as potency and resistances go, I'll try to gather evidence on the potency of her (Tomoe's) abilities in the meantime.
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I mean, I could do the match, but is there any point to it? 6-B Alte's abilities are resisted or straight up not applicable (no magic to be negated) and she has no real answer to just getting salted from what I see. That match just seems like a stomp.
The only real win-con I see for her is if her fear aura is truly passive, works over 4km range and bypasses all layers of Yomoji's resistance.
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She negates supernatural abilities in general, her magic negation is just unquantifiably more effective than something like skill negation. But it works against law, magic, skills, reality warping, subjective reality and; quite literally, every known ability in the verse besides maybe god powers. Even then, I'm pretty sure it even worked on those (I don't remember Makoto's field being useful).
This goes way further with Alte, because she's one of those people I mentioned before with the ridiculous resistance negation.
Resisting petrification of your body and resisting petrification of your soul and abilities are three different things.
Besides all of that though, I do have some questions here...
According to the pages in question, divine rank doesn't actually make you immune to the effects of the spell in question, or even resist them, it's a passive weakening ability (Done through law manip) which rather than giving resistance weakens the effects of abilities in question. The description makes it sound more like passive weakening which bypasses a lot of layers rather than resistance. In Which case, Yomoji would definitely win here against any power not associated with mind manip (Because as I said, that scaling chain is really complicated).
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I mean, reminder that Ether manip isn't just law manip. It's information manip explicitly 1 level higher than law manip. As for magic... well, yes but actually no. Humans use magic. All gods can use Auth-Spells which are basically god magic that is better than human magic. And then gods have Authorities, which is what Yomoji's abilities are, which are arguably not magic at all, although all of those things manipulate Ether. I think the exact difference would be that in Auth-Spells the mold is created from scratch or the Ether is manipulated without a mold, while Gods are the molds for their Authorities, so that the effect is manifested directly without the need of mold creation.
Her power null works via contact with lightning, doesn't it? Would it even defend against a technique that just affects her directly without a projectile the lightning can touch? If yes, I will make the match I guess...
Whether you want to call it resistance or passive powernull is... debatable. In any case, yes, it's weakening. Just that it's weakening on a scale that makes the abilities completely irrelevant.
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