Bartleby vs Kratos (Strongest 5D dude)

[Robo432343]

Bartleby

Bartleby is one of the three cosmic beings in the Wizard101 universe. Bartleby existed as the center of magic in the First World and watched over existence. His sister, Grandmother Raven decided to give Bartleby the Eyes Of Time, one showed the past, and the other showed the future. This would...

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vs

Kratos

Kratos (Greek: Κράτος) is the titular playable protagonist of Sony Santa Monica Studio's acclaimed God of War series. Born and raised among the violent Spartans, Kratos rose through the ranks to become a fearsome general, winning many wars under his command. However, they eventually encountered...

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SBA
Speed Equal

 

[Planck69]

Type 2 Concept Manip

Bartleby's washed but that High-Godly regeneration means he can't die permanently. How does he handle power nullification.

 

[Robo432343]

Bartleby's washed but that High-Godly regeneration means he can't die permanently. How does he handle power nullification.

wouldn't TD type 2 render power null useless?

 

[Planck69]

wouldn't TD type 2 render power null useless?

Does he even qualify for Nonduality Aspect 2? If not then the fact that Kratos's magics are all Type 1 conceptual manipulation would screw him over.

If so then this is just him having survivability.

 

[Robo432343]

Does he even qualify for Nonduality Aspect 2? If not then the fact that Kratos's magics are all Type 1 conceptual manipulation would screw him over.

If so then this is just him having survivability.

yeah bartleby has resistance to shadow magic which is CM type 1

 

[Planck69]

yeah bartleby has resistance to shadow magic which is CM type 1

Kratos has 9 layers of that on top of Resistance Negation. Can he handle that?

 

[Robo432343]

Kratos has 9 layers of that on top of Resistance Negation. Can he handle that?

probably not but thats only if the power null and resistance neg is touching nd aspect 2

isn't this just like the raven vs kratos match because of the higher dimensional stuff raven has
the difference is that bartleby got the duality thing
Bartleby also has nep type 3 BFR

 

[Fixxed]

touching nd aspect 2

Well hope and evil (CM1)>>>the primordial that ND 2

 

[KLOL506]

Well hope and evil (CM1)>>>the primordial that ND 2

Primordials are ND Type 1 Aspect 2. Not ND Type 2.

 

[Planck69]

probably not but thats only if the power null and resistance neg is touching nd aspect 2

isn't this just like the raven vs kratos match because of the higher dimensional stuff raven has
the difference is that bartleby got the duality thing
Bartleby also has nep type 3 BFR

Norse Kratos lacked the range to affect her. Hope doesn't.

And again, we're not even sure if it is Aspect 2 under the new system.

 

[Fixxed]

Primordials are ND Type 1 Aspect 2. Not ND Type 2.

I mean ND aspect 2

 

[KLOL506]

I mean ND aspect 2

Well your comment forgot the "aspect" word.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Bartleby's washed but that High-Godly regeneration means he can't die permanently. How does he handle power nullification

I'm not sure why Bartleby's profile doesn't seem to just outright say he has concept manipulation, but he does, and it's Type 1. Any mentions of Type 2 would be leftovers of when Type 2 was "false platonic concepts". Spider, who is Bartleby's ontological equal, has Type 1 concept manipulation.

Also, uh... this isn't really something on the wiki, and in fact I only came across it like two days ago, but there's a character in Wallaru that sort of just says "no" to the power nullification stuff in Wizard101. Like, you can cast a dispel on them, and a shield to protect against them, but they just outright ignore both of those things and go for a one-shot kill. That sort of logic didn't apply to ALL of their abilities but it did for their one-shot KO attack. That's relevant information here because the character comes from the Dreaming, which is itself stated to be "dew" from Bartleby's unconscious side. Said character also has reality warping, spatial manipulation, duplication, and power mimicry, among other things, so yeah...

I'm not sure if Bartleby would have Nonduality Type 2 or whatever, but it's worth mentioning that the Dreaming also outright gave a character the knowledge and ability to create a device that itself could transform the Nothing into a physical world, thus nullifying Nonexistent Physiology and Nonduality Type 2 together. That wasn't the device's intended purpose, but it still happened. Said device was also powered by Bartleby's Song of Creation.

Counting the number of layers that Bartleby has for stuff like concept manipulation and the like is pretty difficult, but you can argue it's >10, depending on how you want to treat the relationship between pierce in the game and resistance negation on the wiki. I brought this up in another thread but there are characters that have "-999% shields", which effectively made the player's resistance negation worthless. For more context, -100% is full "immunity" to magical attacks including conceptual ones, but that can be bypassed by the verse's pierce mechanic to the point that the 100% is 0%. The character I mentioned earlier just outright ignores those types of things entirely and goes for the kill anyway, and they're not the only instance of the verse completely ignoring resist and shields outright.

 

[Planck69]

Noted on the Type 1.

Everything listed there, Kratos resists several layers over and can just adapt to immediately. As for the resistance negation part, Kratos could evolve to negate a characters resistance.... to resistance negation, via his Draupnir Spear in a later weaker key. Not to mention that he himself developed resistance to having his resistances negated by Zeus.

Also, as of recent revisions layers have to be properly codified or laid out to use. We can't go off of "you can put it at X". It needs to have a clear progression of "he overcame resistances that overcame hax that overcame resistances etc."

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Noted on the Type 1.

Everything listed there, Kratos resists several layers over and can just adapt to immediately. As for the resistance negation part, Kratos could evolve to negate a characters resistance.... to resistance negation, via his Draupnir Spear in a later weaker key. Not to mention that he himself developed resistance to having his resistances negated by Zeus.

Also, as of recent revisions layers have to be properly codified or laid out to use. We can't go off of "you can put it at X". It needs to have a clear progression of "he overcame resistances that overcame hax that overcame resistances etc."

That's literally how piercing works in the game though. Ignoring piercing is ignoring a fundamental mechanic of how magic and resistance to magic in the verse works altogether, and if the wiki chooses to do that then I don't really want to participate in these versus-threads at all, to be honest. Not that I think I'll be missed if I don't.

Though I don't really see why the Draupnir Spear is important, even if it's in a weaker key I don't understand the logic behind its abilities scaling to a stronger version of Kratos given that it's a specific weapon that this key of Kratos doesn't have.

Also, for the record, the Type 3 NEP BFR might be Type 2, but I imagine that might also not be accepted since it's not outright stated for that specific instance, although the verse does describe Nothingness in general as though it's NEP Type 2, as opposed to just the Nothing by itself having that. In fact, the exact statement used for the Nothing is only referencing them as a way to foreshadow the character as an idea, rather than singling them out specifically as a character.

All this being said, Ultima's proposal could severely change the way things work here. I've spoken with him off-site and he has outright said to me that he plans on making Nonduality Type 2 1-A, primarily due to not believing that the distinction between Nonduality and Transduality is all that great... So, yeah... this argument could become kind of pointless after all of that is settled, since according to earlier messages the Nondual characters in GoW are decidedly not Type 2. That doesn't mean you can't continue to argue under current standards as they still are, but it's worth bringing up IMO.

 

[Planck69]

That's literally how piercing works in the game though. Ignoring piercing is ignoring a fundamental mechanic of how magic and resistance to magic in the verse works altogether, and if the wiki chooses to do that then I don't really want to participate in these versus-threads at all, to be honest. Not that I think I'll be missed if I don't.

Then can you show me how its treated on site? I can't take your word for it which is why I ask if there's actually some place where these layers and how they work are accepted. I'm saying the layers need to be actually detailed beyond "well, this overcomes it no matter what". Like, an actual list of feats and such.

Though I don't really see why the Draupnir Spear is important, even if it's in a weaker key I don't understand the logic behind its abilities scaling to a stronger version of Kratos given that it's a specific weapon that this key of Kratos doesn't have.

He can adapt to overcome resistance negation is the point. He does this through the weapon but that's him empowering it, like how he cam channel innate abilities like power nullification through his Blades.

Even without that, his battle with Zeus means he can adapt to resistances being negated on his end as well.

Also, for the record, the Type 3 NEP BFR might be Type 2, but I imagine that might also not be accepted since it's not outright stated for that specific instance, although the verse does describe Nothingness in general as though it's NEP Type 2, as opposed to just the Nothing by itself having that. In fact, the exact statement used for the Nothing is only referencing them as a way to foreshadow the character as an idea, rather than singling them out specifically as a character.

Not sure why this is exactly relevant. I'm going off of the profiles. Not what might or might not be there.

All this being said, Ultima's proposal could severely change the way things work here. I've spoken with him off-site and he has outright said to me that he plans on making Nonduality Type 2 1-A, primarily due to not believing that the distinction between Nonduality and Transduality is all that great... So, yeah... this argument could become kind of pointless after all of that is settled, since according to earlier messages the Nondual characters in GoW are decidedly not Type 2. That doesn't mean you can't continue to argue under current standards as they still are, but it's worth bringing up IMO.

As of this thread, the proposal hasn't been accepted so idk why its being brought up.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Though I don't really see why the Draupnir Spear is important, even if it's in a weaker key I don't understand the logic behind its abilities scaling to a stronger version of Kratos given that it's a specific weapon that this key of Kratos doesn't have.

The spear has those powers because it's Kratos blood and essence empowering it. On it's own the spear has no extra ability other than duplication via the namesake ring.

Everything else Planck answered.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

The spear has those powers because it's Kratos blood and essence empowering it. On it's own the spear has no extra ability other than duplication via the namesake ring.

Everything else Planck answered.

I see. I only watched the Ragnarok cutscenes, & that was a long while back, so my memory/knowledge of everything is limited. That seems fine then.