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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

There should definitely still be a CRT, but it's still good to discuss these things now so the CRTs flow smoothly.

The Bleach cosmology is not explored in great detail, but is there a general acceptance that Mugen/Muken is contained within the realm of Soul Society and therefore the realm of Soul Society would be at least as large as Muken/Mugen?
 
In the manga Quincy destroy Hollow souls and they don't go to the reincarnation cycle, but I also read somewhere that Hollows destroy Quincy souls as well. I don't know if it was Urahara that said so during the Isshin and Masaki flashback mini-arc but shouldn't Arrancars and Hollows get soul destruction for Holy characters like Monks/Quincy?
 
AppleLord said:
In the manga Quincy destroy Hollow souls and they don't go to the reincarnation cycle, but I also read somewhere that Hollows destroy Quincy souls as well. I don't know if it was Urahara that said so during the Isshin and Masaki flashback mini-arc but shouldn't Arrancars and Hollows get soul destruction for Holy characters like Monks/Quincy?
Click to expand...
Is that even a thing in VS Wiki? Holy Characters?

I know that there are Holy Manipulation Users but Quincy don't seem to be listed.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
There should definitely still be a CRT, but it's still good to discuss these things now so the CRTs flow smoothly.

The Bleach cosmology is not explored in great detail, but is there a general acceptance that Mugen/Muken is contained within the realm of Soul Society and therefore the realm of Soul Society would be at least as large as Muken/Mugen?
Click to expand...

I don't think that's how cosmologies involving pocket dimensions necessailry work, is it? If a dimension contains a pocket dimension inside of it, the size of the pocket dimension shouldn't any bearing on the dimension it is inside of.
 
Do u guys think that SK’s Conceptual Manipulation comes from the Almighty??The novels says the following:
Using his powers of the Almighty as the ‘keystone’,the five of them created the foundation of a new world.Soul Society,The Material World and Hueco Mundo.Life and death were separated.
Click to expand...
The Almighty is referred to have ‘powers’ which means it does much more than changing the future.So should Yhwach also get Conceptual Manip in his SK Absorbed key as he absorbs nearly all of its powers.Also,Yhwach was gonna do the exact opposite of what SK did,by erasing the concepts of Life and Death.I brought this up previously as well but someone said that Concept Manip is a really powerful ability and cannot be given unless feats r there.But if its just part of the Almighty’s abilities(like Creation,also proven through the novel)than SK Yhwach should also have it.
 
I found it. Going by this part of the lore, Hollow Reiatsu is poison to souls, and may cause decay in people who don't have antibodies against Hollows. This will give Poison Manipilation, Decay Manipulation and Statics Reduction to all Hollows and Arrancars against those who don't have feats against spiritual energy.

E2pQrVO_d.jpg

Grimmjow used this advantage in combat against Askin via Urahara’s subjection.

0666-002.png
 
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Damage3245 said:
I don't think that's how cosmologies involving pocket dimensions necessailry work, is it? If a dimension contains a pocket dimension inside of it, the size of the pocket dimension shouldn't any bearing on the dimension it is inside of.
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Is Muken/Mugen a pocket dimension? I'm not 100% sure how it works either, but would it not be a fair assumption to say the realms in Bleach are of infinite size? WotL is based on our real life universe, SS is a mirror of WotL, and SS has an infinite prison (not confirmed yet but for the sake of argument) within it.

A while ago I'd posted a question about an infinite 3D space inside a realm on a Q&A board for our Tier System. "If it's just there as part of the realm then destroying the realm is High 3-A." This was the answer I got, so I guess the question would be: is Muken/Mugen a part of the realm of SS or is it a pocket dimension inside SS?

0523-010.png

Here it seems like Kenpachi reaches Muken through a physical elevator/staircase of sorts, which would imply Muken is a part of Soul Society and not a pocket dimension within SS. Also, whenever they talk about entering Muken in the series they use terms like "gate" and "door" and then there's physical keys to Muken as well. I feel like if it were a pocket dimension there would be no need to have to go anywhere to access it and you'd just have to enter a portal. Either way physical entrance implies physical place and not cut off pocket dimension to me. That doorway Kenpachi walks through doesn't look like a portal to a pocket dimension either.
 
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If Muken is just an underground room accessible by elevator in the Soul Society then it seems like it'd be pretty finite instead of an infinite space.
 
Damage3245 said:
If Muken is just an underground room accessible by elevator in the Soul Society then it seems like it'd be pretty finite instead of an infinite space.
Click to expand...
What my point was getting at in the prior post was that the realm of Soul Society would be as large as Muken, if Muken is not a pocket dimension.

How they get to Muken is irrelevant since we don't actually ever see how, I just used elevator as an analogy.

Unohana in the raws for chapter 523 says "essentially infinite" and not "almost infinite" the difference being that essentially relates 'infinite' to the most fundamental property of Muken (meaning when you boil Muken done to it's basics it is just an infinite space) and almost implies that Muken is not actually infinite but just massive. Also, the current fan translation of CFYOW III says Muken is an infinite darkness, which further backs up the notion of infinite size. Of course we are waiting on official translations, but don't raws outweigh translations when speaking for accuracy anyhow?
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
No it’s heavily implied Muken is a separate space from soul society. The door is the only way in or out and if the key or door is destroy there is no escape.
Click to expand...
Couldn't you argue the door is just extremely hard to break, it's likely made from the same material as Aizen's chair, which Aizen could not break. No escape could just mean the door is "unbreakable" in the same way Aizen's chair was.

Bleach seemingly makes an effort to display clear visuals for traversing dimensions and entering portals.
 
If it is a separate space then the size of Soul Society is not linked to the size of Muken.
 
Damage3245 said:
If it is a separate space then the size of Soul Society is not linked to the size of Muken.
Click to expand...
Yes and if it is not a separate space, Soul Society's size is linked to the size of Muken.

Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
You just need to follow the dialogue when Shunsui enters.

It’s one of the only reasons Aizen didn’t kill him.

Here
Click to expand...
Aizen couldn't destroy his chair so could it not be that Aizen just can't bust his way out with raw strength. Aizen couldn't leave if the doors were locked for one of two possibilities: A) the key opens a portal back to SS or B) Aizen can't destroy the gates.
 
If Mugen/Muken is a sealed off pocket-dimension, how does that explain it shaking after the Soul King's death?
 
Your suggestion suggest there is some sort of infinite void underground in soul society thus making it some sort of infinite planet... it’s very clearly intended to be a separate space. It’s literally the only logical conclusion if it’s actually infinite.
 
So wouldn't that mean SK also keeps Mugen/Muken in existence? The only two explanations I can think of that explain the shaking are;
  1. It's not a pocket-dimension and it literally exists within Soul Society so it's also affected by the destruction of Soul Society
  2. It's a pocket-dimension but like Soul Society, Human World and Hueco Mundo, it's existence is maintained by the Soul King.
 
On a completely different note a page above shows that Urahara had to heal Grimmjow from Askin's poison while Ichigo just brushed it off even when he was caught off guard.
doesn't that solve all the askin related problems we were having ?
 
CloudStrife00T said:
On a completely different note a page above shows that Urahara had to heal Grimmjow from Askin's poison while Ichigo just brushed it off even when he was caught off guard.
doesn't that solve all the askin related problems we were having ?
Click to expand...
Yeah Ichigo brushed it off pretty effortlessly. It's likely Askin made reiatsu poisonous so Ichigo couldn't exert a lot of spiritual pressure or he'd poison himself. Similar to how Nimaiya had to drain his blood, Ichigo likely had to keep his reiatsu at a low level and was thus rendered immobile.

Purgy said:
So wouldn't that mean SK also keeps Mugen/Muken in existence? The only two explanations I can think of that explain the shaking are;
  1. It's not a pocket-dimension and it literally exists within Soul Society so it's also affected by the destruction of Soul Society
  2. It's a pocket-dimension but like Soul Society, Human World and Hueco Mundo, it's existence is maintained by the Soul King.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly certain the Soul King maintains literally everything that's not Hell (Hell existed pre-SK iirc), since Yhwach was going to collapse and merge everything (Garganta, Dangai, 3 Realms, Valley of Screams) the Soul King split. Either way if Muken is a pocket dimension or not it's in SS and the Soul King's existence kept it from shaking and collapsing.

I'd also like to mention in Yoruichi's diagram Kubo made sure to draw that the Valley of Screams are pocket dimensions but he never drew Muken as a pocket dimension within Soul Society. That diagram makes clear distinction of realms and dimensions contained within the Garganta, giving everything defined borders, but Kubo doesn't do that for Muken.
 
Upon further thought I don't know if Muken being a pocket dimension in SS matters to what I was going to get at, because regardless Muken is included within the contents of SS. Prefacing this by letting all know that I'm approaching this as if Muken is an infinite 3D space as per Unohana in 523 raw.

We know that Yhwach's destruction of the SS realm includes the destruction of Muken (as seen by the shaking in Muken). Therefore destroying all contents within SS realm would be a High 3-A feat.

We know that the WotL realm is meant to parallel the SS realm. Bleach's cosmology is based in Buddhism, which believed our universe (or WotL in this case) to be infinite. If Bleach's realms are rooted in Buddhism and destroying the SS realm is High 3-A, then destroying the WotL realm should also be High 3-A.

We know the WotL realm and SS realm are split by a separate timespace as per Isshin's dialogue to Ichigo before the FGT training in Dangai. Destroying two High 3-A realms is High 3-A unless casually closed from each other by a separate spacetime as per VSBW Tiering System. So what the Soul King is maintaining would be a Low 2-C universe.

FGT Ichigo's power transcends God Aizen's power like a 3D being transcends a 2D being as per Aizen (Aizen's power being 3D and Ichigo's power being 4D). The weakened Soul King is passively maintaining a Low 2-C (aka 4D) space and TS Ichigo who's reclaimed his FGT power is able to cut down the Soul King (we currently apply unknown to weakened SK's dura but I believe that it should scale to his passive maintaining of the universe as per Kenpachi's statements on cutting with spiritual pressure). This would mean TS Ichigo scales to Low 2-C for killing the Soul King and is backed by TS Ichigo = FGT Ichigo and Aizen equated FGT Ichigo's power to 4D power. This is very consistent, the only people who scale to True Zanpakuto Ichigo (a transcendent being) are Aizen (another transcendent being, who was stated to reach something akin to godhood in one of the databooks) and Yhwach (Jesus figure and literal god).
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
This is very consistent, the only people who scale to True Zanpakuto Ichigo (a transcendent being) are Aizen (another transcendent being, who was stated to reach something akin to godhood in one of the databooks) and Yhwach (Jesus figure and literal god).
Click to expand...
In the older forum I remember some people were talking about some other people maybe scaling like Uryu and Yamamoto.

Also wasn’t Hikone transcendent ? What about the post-RG training main cast ? What about Ichibei ? Wasn’t Gerard stated to be on Yhwach’s level ? Body parts of the soul King being 4D powerful makes sense. Maybe even Lille ? He seemed transcendent too.
 
TraODWaterLaw said:
In the older forum I remember some people were talking about some other people maybe scaling like Uryu and Yamamoto.

Also wasn’t Hikone transcendent ? What about the post-RG training main cast ? What about Ichibei ? Wasn’t Gerard stated to be on Yhwach’s level ? Body parts of the soul King being 4D powerful makes sense. Maybe even Lille ? He seemed transcendent too.
Click to expand...
Short answer: no. No one scales to the God Tiers except themselves.

The God Tiers of Bleach are very self-contained, Kubo does a good job maintaining the God Tiers >>>>>> the rest of the verse.

Long answer: Uryu did nothing to TS Ichigo except shoot some arrows that TS Ichigo casually deflected, that does not make Uryu = TS Ichigo. TS Ichigo = FGT Ichigo > Transcendent Aizen > all Shinigami and Hollows (including Yama) so Yama doesn't scale. Hikone is not stated transcendent, he's just freakishly strong, but not quite Kenpachi strong. Post RG training cast have no feats or statements anywhere close to the God Tiers, and still fall under the less than Transcendent Aizen scaling. Gerard was never stated on Yhwach's level. I never said anything about the body parts of the Soul King being 4D in power, I only talked about the Soul King (and by extension the Mimihagi since it replicated the Soul King's feat). Lille is in the same realm of power as Shunsei which falls under less than Transcendent Aizen, Lille is not transcendent.
 
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question the whole blut vene durability thing should be easy to do if we look at sternritter J ... he said something about telling juha to "adjust out blut" meaning he could make it stronger? so in a way i guess they wont scale unless its high tier quincies
 
Zezu1995 said:
question the whole blut vene durability thing should be easy to do if we look at sternritter J ... he said something about telling juha to "adjust out blut" meaning he could make it stronger? so in a way i guess they wont scale unless its high tier quincies
Click to expand...
You're talking about the unfinished Blut Vene CRT?
 
Shouldn’t Byakuya and Zommari have Duplication/Cloning instead of Afterimage Creation?They r creating solid,tangible bodies which r shown to bleed.
 
@Makstar05; Yeah, and Soi-Fon can create up to 15 clones. But it's not duplication. They're all afterimages.
 
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