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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion
- Thread starter Zoro21043
- Start date
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Lets go under the assumption that Weakened Reio is still Low 2-C. Almighty Yhwach is treated by us as being above Weakened Reio. This gives big problems, because going by the logic of this argument, Low 2-C power in general is needed to use the Almighty, since if Almighty Yhwach is >>> Weakened Soul King, who you guys still consider to be Low 2-C, and Almighty scales to Yhwach's attack potency, that would mean Yhwach was always Low 2-C and Yhwach regularly is Low 2-C as he would need Low 2-C power to wield Almighty in the first place.
This is only under the assumption that it is pure hax, which is incredibly false. We blatantly see and stated it's a strength increase when not only jugram says this, but when Ichibe proceeds to get literally dismembered by Almighty Yhwach's TK even though he was just keeping up with and pushing back Yhwach post second invasion.
This then scales to a lot of different characters. Yamamoto would be scaling to Low 2-C since he and Yhwach 1000 of years prior to the series could not kill each other and Yhwach considered Prime Yamamoto a beast; The 5 War Potentials would arguably scale based off the very fact that Yhwach was concerned with them and made the Sternritter be wary of them, which makes no sense unless they were Low 2-C themselves for Yhwach to see them as a threat; On top of that, Ichibei would at least be the one member of Zero Squad who’d be scaling to Low 2-C since he outright fights Yhwach before and after the Almighty appeared without getting instantaneously stomped.
Well no. For Yama, Zanka no Tachi is hax, and arguing that all the war potentials scale is basically ignoring why they're even war potentials and their own showings:
Kisuke is a war potential because of his knowledge, he goes into a fight with 1k plans at the ready. Not because of his strength and Ichibe because of his wisdom (hax). That leaves the other 3 in which Kenpachi has shown literally zero showings of being comparable to Almighty Yhwach, so that's down 2, Aka the only ones who already scale, Ichigo and Aizen who are the only 2 who have actually fought Yhwach after he's awakened the Almighty
And as for Ichibe's fight? Yhwach one shots him as soon as the Almighty is active. The war potentials have never and will never scale soley just off the basis of them being the five war potentials, it completely ignores context.
After that comes Jugram once again; Jugram was able to use Almighty in Yhwach’s place, which would mean he would need Low 2-C power to even remotely wield the Almighty; And no, it being a weaker Almighty does not change the fact that he’d need to be in the same realm of Low 2-C power as Yhwach is, or else using the Almighty is impossible from the start for a non Low 2-C. A weaker Almighty just means Jugram is a weaker Low 2-C than Yhwach is, so Low 2-C Jugram for using Almighty on some level now comes from this.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Uryu and likely Low 2-C Sternritters; Uryu lasted against Almighty Jugram, and made Jugram struggle afterwards, so he’d scale, and Sternritters likely scale to either Jugram or Uryu if memory serves me right.
Unquantifiable given that it's blatantly a weaker and unrefined Almighty, and incorrect. Jugram fodderises Bazz-B in Base and goes into the fight wirh Uryu with Almighty already active and proceeds to make it completely one sided, Uryu is only ever able to harm Jugram with the Antithesis and Jugram simply responds with using his Balance after his and Yhwach's powers switch back.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Captains and Assistant Captains who'd be Low 2-C for fighting the Sternritters .
This all comes from downscaling from Jugram who dogwalked anyone he's fought in the arc, so it doesn't. Even if you were to use the royal guard they all fight with hax primarily.
Very easily, this logic results in over 20+ characters magically scaling to the upgrades, which creates inconsistency after inconsistency with every passing moment and makes this much more outlierish. And this is all on the premise that Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency, which as explained, shouldn't be scaling.
So a choice needs to be made. Either the Almighty doesn’t scale to attack potency and is treated as pure hax, or many characters end up scaling to the upgrades to make this incredibly inconsistent.
This only occurs if context on these characters are left out, such as why a war potential is a war potential or the details of fights outside of "they fought"
This is only under the assumption that it is pure hax, which is incredibly false. We blatantly see and stated it's a strength increase when not only jugram says this, but when Ichibe proceeds to get literally dismembered by Almighty Yhwach's TK even though he was just keeping up with and pushing back Yhwach post second invasion.
This then scales to a lot of different characters. Yamamoto would be scaling to Low 2-C since he and Yhwach 1000 of years prior to the series could not kill each other and Yhwach considered Prime Yamamoto a beast; The 5 War Potentials would arguably scale based off the very fact that Yhwach was concerned with them and made the Sternritter be wary of them, which makes no sense unless they were Low 2-C themselves for Yhwach to see them as a threat; On top of that, Ichibei would at least be the one member of Zero Squad who’d be scaling to Low 2-C since he outright fights Yhwach before and after the Almighty appeared without getting instantaneously stomped.
Well no. For Yama, Zanka no Tachi is hax, and arguing that all the war potentials scale is basically ignoring why they're even war potentials and their own showings:
Kisuke is a war potential because of his knowledge, he goes into a fight with 1k plans at the ready. Not because of his strength and Ichibe because of his wisdom (hax). That leaves the other 3 in which Kenpachi has shown literally zero showings of being comparable to Almighty Yhwach, so that's down 2, Aka the only ones who already scale, Ichigo and Aizen who are the only 2 who have actually fought Yhwach after he's awakened the Almighty
And as for Ichibe's fight? Yhwach one shots him as soon as the Almighty is active. The war potentials have never and will never scale soley just off the basis of them being the five war potentials, it completely ignores context.
After that comes Jugram once again; Jugram was able to use Almighty in Yhwach’s place, which would mean he would need Low 2-C power to even remotely wield the Almighty; And no, it being a weaker Almighty does not change the fact that he’d need to be in the same realm of Low 2-C power as Yhwach is, or else using the Almighty is impossible from the start for a non Low 2-C. A weaker Almighty just means Jugram is a weaker Low 2-C than Yhwach is, so Low 2-C Jugram for using Almighty on some level now comes from this.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Uryu and likely Low 2-C Sternritters; Uryu lasted against Almighty Jugram, and made Jugram struggle afterwards, so he’d scale, and Sternritters likely scale to either Jugram or Uryu if memory serves me right.
Unquantifiable given that it's blatantly a weaker and unrefined Almighty, and incorrect. Jugram fodderises Bazz-B in Base and goes into the fight wirh Uryu with Almighty already active and proceeds to make it completely one sided, Uryu is only ever able to harm Jugram with the Antithesis and Jugram simply responds with using his Balance after his and Yhwach's powers switch back.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Captains and Assistant Captains who'd be Low 2-C for fighting the Sternritters .
This all comes from downscaling from Jugram who dogwalked anyone he's fought in the arc, so it doesn't. Even if you were to use the royal guard they all fight with hax primarily.
Very easily, this logic results in over 20+ characters magically scaling to the upgrades, which creates inconsistency after inconsistency with every passing moment and makes this much more outlierish. And this is all on the premise that Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency, which as explained, shouldn't be scaling.
So a choice needs to be made. Either the Almighty doesn’t scale to attack potency and is treated as pure hax, or many characters end up scaling to the upgrades to make this incredibly inconsistent.
This only occurs if context on these characters are left out, such as why a war potential is a war potential or the details of fights outside of "they fought"
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This event is not only related to the spirit cycle or just reio, the reio keeps the kogmology, like a weightlifter holding the barbell, the mood cycle is like the weight removed and added on one side, if too much weight is put on one side, I will not be able to lift the barbell that I normally can lift, the soul cycle works completely this way. with load
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Also Kubo: *Lets Yhwach take Yammamoto’s Bankai and let’s him say that he could use it
But also Kubo: *Never once lets the man take the sun out of his pocket to play
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@DemonGodMitchAubin I made an entire comment explaining why, it was a blast of energy, and the feat scale just to that Yhwach final key, Yamamoto or whatever doesn’t scale.
It is hinted to be powered based by jugram, it is stated to be power based in the novel, and it is shown to be reiastu, it was probably his body too since he became a black mass. How you can’t see that? How it can be an hax?? I have posted a possibility how you can deny that, it is literally shown and written, I can’t understand. It just seems ya guys just don’t believe he can’t be that strong for some reasons.
It is hinted to be powered based by jugram, it is stated to be power based in the novel, and it is shown to be reiastu, it was probably his body too since he became a black mass. How you can’t see that? How it can be an hax?? I have posted a possibility how you can deny that, it is literally shown and written, I can’t understand. It just seems ya guys just don’t believe he can’t be that strong for some reasons.
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Like I said, Bleach's Final Arc is full of wasted potential, imagine how awesome it would be to see everyone fight alongside Ichigo to fight Yhwach and he's just spamming the Schrift abilities
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Let’s hope Kubo can work with the anime staff and don’t rush the anime. He could now add what he missed during “rush-time” because of his illness.
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Grimmjow was glaring at Ikomikidomoe, grinding its teeth.
“However, the piece I have just eaten is enough for now.”
During its separation from Hikone, it robbed a part of the ‘Rei-o fragment’ lodged within Hikone. It’s
absorption of reishi from the atmosphere became more intense than ever as it condensed its violent
reiryoku.
“This piece of the Rei-o... hahahaha! That’s right! I remember my hunger! Oh yes!”
It appeared as though the devoured shard of the Rei-o had given it a great deal of power that weakened
the name-curse of the monk’s zanpakuto that had repainted its original name. At the same time, its
Hollow reiatsu exploded outwards, scattering the unusually dense reishi of the Kyogoku. Slaughtering
those in the Zero Division; that would be its first step towards vengeance. It opened its mouth to cry out
its true name.
“I was so desperate. I have waited for so long. My true name is-“
Here we see Ikomikomoe absorb a piece of the soul king. Absorbing this increases his power to the point he was able to overpower the name curse placed on him by Ichibei to regain his original power.
The same thing happened when Yhwach activated The Almighty because it increases his power overall.
The fact he was able to kill Ichibei with his TK now also proves this increases his power.
“However, the piece I have just eaten is enough for now.”
During its separation from Hikone, it robbed a part of the ‘Rei-o fragment’ lodged within Hikone. It’s
absorption of reishi from the atmosphere became more intense than ever as it condensed its violent
reiryoku.
“This piece of the Rei-o... hahahaha! That’s right! I remember my hunger! Oh yes!”
It appeared as though the devoured shard of the Rei-o had given it a great deal of power that weakened
the name-curse of the monk’s zanpakuto that had repainted its original name. At the same time, its
Hollow reiatsu exploded outwards, scattering the unusually dense reishi of the Kyogoku. Slaughtering
those in the Zero Division; that would be its first step towards vengeance. It opened its mouth to cry out
its true name.
“I was so desperate. I have waited for so long. My true name is-“
Here we see Ikomikomoe absorb a piece of the soul king. Absorbing this increases his power to the point he was able to overpower the name curse placed on him by Ichibei to regain his original power.
The same thing happened when Yhwach activated The Almighty because it increases his power overall.
The fact he was able to kill Ichibei with his TK now also proves this increases his power.
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Btw what happened to the "ignore" function?
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They removed it.
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The downgrade thread is hilarious honestly. Crazy how they will legit change standards to get what they want
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And not to throw shade but professorkuikui I feel like honestly has no idea what he’s talking about.
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Guys, don't be sad, as we know, Uryu will be High 6-A with Arrow and Hisagi, Omaeda, Ikkaku and some others will also be High 6-A because they can attack what is left of Reio's power, just progress. GG
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It’s just funny how professor is trying to say all these people would scale when before that was never the case but since they got upgraded, he has to find something to latch onto
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What I found funny was '' even though it's a lie, it's still evidence of support ''
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It's really annoying that we have to backtrack and re-argue the stupid Soul Cycle and Almighty shit after already disproving it before and no new information being presented...
If the roles were reversed I'm sure staff would hit us with the "you can't do that it's been discussed and debunked before".
If the roles were reversed I'm sure staff would hit us with the "you can't do that it's been discussed and debunked before".
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I believe the term for this is called flat earthing
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Arc, you never convinced staff of that being true. At least from what I remember. And that's kinda why the thread is happening in the first place, most of the staff involved have made it clear they don't know much or didn't really see what was going on. Sure, you've had many supporters agree and corroborate what you're saying, but you've always lacked true convincing of staff memebers.
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And yes, after this is over, a rule will be created so that it does not open again.
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I called that shit before the thread got to page 2
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Imagine that you have to prove to someone that an apple is an apple and that person says what you say it is not an apple. Can you prove it?
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Wiki has a habit of using old debunked arguments in a new light to form a new argument. I’ve seen it for many verses.
It works now because the people who worked and support this thread already support Kukui anyways. So even if those points were debunked and etc in the past they’re being placed at the forefront. Several of the points are things I’ve randomly seen them said individually over the course of a year or so on multiple threads.
Taking advantage of things agreed upon around logical conclusions as opposed to an outright scan stating so helps as well. So they can make everything seem doubtful. I’ve seen this a lot lol.
It works now because the people who worked and support this thread already support Kukui anyways. So even if those points were debunked and etc in the past they’re being placed at the forefront. Several of the points are things I’ve randomly seen them said individually over the course of a year or so on multiple threads.
Taking advantage of things agreed upon around logical conclusions as opposed to an outright scan stating so helps as well. So they can make everything seem doubtful. I’ve seen this a lot lol.
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This shit is just like trying to prove that the earth is not flat for flat-earther
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this is about: trolls, haters and clowns.
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Tbh the only good thing about the wiki are the list of abilities dream hax, concept hax, RW etc. And the thread discussions for people to talk about a verse they like
That's about it
That's about it
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I think Wikia is more considering being considered a joke for accepting Bleach as tier 3, so no matter what the argument, this is already destined to be done.
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I will not lie. There is defintely bias against bleach. But that is not the sole reason why this is happening.
So much of the evidence that has been provided is up to interpretation.
And that evidence being up to interpretation is why the downgrade can happen as it does.
There are some things that aren't up for debate.
Prime Soul King is Universal, split the universe and created three different places with it.
However, past that much of the evidence has been circumstantial and based on extrapolation.
Just because you all think it's clearcut, that doesn't mean it is.
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Except no, it doesn't. It doesnt need to be hax or not, the point of this argument is that your logic dictates Yhwach would need to be Low 2-C in order to freely wield the Almighty in the first place.
And no, Jugram never said its a strength increase. He said Yhwach needed to regain his strength before opening his eyes, or else the Almighty would go out of control and absorb the power of the sternritters. Having to be strong to wield it is, again, not a strength buff. It is a caveat to using the power.
And yet again he goes from being on par with Ichibe to one shotting him. It's directly him going from ~ to > Ichibe.
Zanka no Tachi is irrelevant to the point. The point is, Yhwach and Yama could not kill each other in the past. And Yhwach considered Prime Yama's power to be "a beast"
A low 2-C being incapable of killing a non-Low 2-C and considering power below that to not be in the same realm of power is ridiculous.
Again, context Kukui. He says past Yama is more ruthless and even comments that he wouldn't have hesitated to have Orihime restore his arm. He then promptly takes Zanka no Tachi before Yama can use it with his medallion in which again, Yhwach has no Almighty and proceeds to one shot him. It's completely referring to his ruthlessness and Bankai's capabilities, not his raw strength. A non low 2-C at the time considering another non low 2-C with decent hax a threat is more than possible, hell, a Low 2-C seeing a Non Low 2-C with hax as a remote threat is common.
Kenpachi doesnt get removed from this. Yhwach considering him a threat in the first place is quite enough to say Kenpachi would be Low 2-C. It would be ridiculous not to. A threat needs to be in the same realm of power as the one threatened, and in this case, we're talking about a tier thats as vastly as big as Low 2-C is.
You also missed the point where I said the 5 war potentials would "Arguably" scale. Nice job.
Yhwach considered him a war potential even before he attained his Shikai and Bankai, in which Lloyd Royd fodderised him. His half of the yourself only allows him to copy memories, appearances and personalities so that's all him. And again no it wouldn't be, leaving a guy that could wreak havoc on a majority of your top men would be ridiculous and no considering you've apparently conceded that Kisuke and Ichibe aren't War Potentials based on power meaning that you also that they can be threats to Yhwach's overall goal without being direct threats on Yhwach himself.
And you shouldn't have said this in the 1st place the only 2 who scale are the only ones who's actually taken hits, traded blows and in Ichigo's case, Yhwach didn't even want to fight him at his best and did everything short of killing him to prevent that. Afterall you were the same one arguing Feats > Statements, when Ichigo and Aizen have both while Kenpachi has neither.
See above. And no, Ichibe would still scale because Yhwach regularly would have Low 2-C power. Why? Because he would need Low 2-C power, according to your logic, to freely wield Almighty.
And I'll give the same answer I gave above.
Irrelevant. It would still be Low 2-C, just unquantifiably lower.
Not irrelevant, it's directly stated to be < Yhwach and thus Soul King's variations and it full out and out a fisher price version.
Uryu was still standing against him, showing he was not one shotted. So the scaling would stay.
I'm sorry but you cannot scale Uryu to Jugram off the basis of "well he's not dead"
Vegeta didn't immediately die after doing absolutely zero damage and proceeding to get crippled by SPC.
Renji didn't immediately die after getting taken out of the fight by Yhwach when he and Ichigo caught up to him.
Renji didn't immediately die after getting bullied by Senbonzakura Kageyoshi
Goku didn't immediately die after getting bullied by Jiren until he 1st used U.I.O.
It's not a case of him tanking Jugrams attacks, he was literally all but beat before he used the Antithesis and both he and Jugram acknowledged this. Jugram even outright says he didn't want to beat him before night because The Balance is a better counter to his Antithesis then his "I can't believe it's not Almighty" is.
Then they would be scaling from Uryu most likely, which still keeps the scaling alive.
How? Uryu fights nobody but a small skirmish with Ichigo casually reacting to Licht Regen more shocked that Uryu actually had the cojones to launch it at him and Jugram who perfects him up until he uses the Antithesis.
And no, Jugram never said its a strength increase. He said Yhwach needed to regain his strength before opening his eyes, or else the Almighty would go out of control and absorb the power of the sternritters. Having to be strong to wield it is, again, not a strength buff. It is a caveat to using the power.
And yet again he goes from being on par with Ichibe to one shotting him. It's directly him going from ~ to > Ichibe.
Zanka no Tachi is irrelevant to the point. The point is, Yhwach and Yama could not kill each other in the past. And Yhwach considered Prime Yama's power to be "a beast"
A low 2-C being incapable of killing a non-Low 2-C and considering power below that to not be in the same realm of power is ridiculous.
Again, context Kukui. He says past Yama is more ruthless and even comments that he wouldn't have hesitated to have Orihime restore his arm. He then promptly takes Zanka no Tachi before Yama can use it with his medallion in which again, Yhwach has no Almighty and proceeds to one shot him. It's completely referring to his ruthlessness and Bankai's capabilities, not his raw strength. A non low 2-C at the time considering another non low 2-C with decent hax a threat is more than possible, hell, a Low 2-C seeing a Non Low 2-C with hax as a remote threat is common.
Kenpachi doesnt get removed from this. Yhwach considering him a threat in the first place is quite enough to say Kenpachi would be Low 2-C. It would be ridiculous not to. A threat needs to be in the same realm of power as the one threatened, and in this case, we're talking about a tier thats as vastly as big as Low 2-C is.
You also missed the point where I said the 5 war potentials would "Arguably" scale. Nice job.
Yhwach considered him a war potential even before he attained his Shikai and Bankai, in which Lloyd Royd fodderised him. His half of the yourself only allows him to copy memories, appearances and personalities so that's all him. And again no it wouldn't be, leaving a guy that could wreak havoc on a majority of your top men would be ridiculous and no considering you've apparently conceded that Kisuke and Ichibe aren't War Potentials based on power meaning that you also that they can be threats to Yhwach's overall goal without being direct threats on Yhwach himself.
And you shouldn't have said this in the 1st place the only 2 who scale are the only ones who's actually taken hits, traded blows and in Ichigo's case, Yhwach didn't even want to fight him at his best and did everything short of killing him to prevent that. Afterall you were the same one arguing Feats > Statements, when Ichigo and Aizen have both while Kenpachi has neither.
See above. And no, Ichibe would still scale because Yhwach regularly would have Low 2-C power. Why? Because he would need Low 2-C power, according to your logic, to freely wield Almighty.
And I'll give the same answer I gave above.
Irrelevant. It would still be Low 2-C, just unquantifiably lower.
Not irrelevant, it's directly stated to be < Yhwach and thus Soul King's variations and it full out and out a fisher price version.
Uryu was still standing against him, showing he was not one shotted. So the scaling would stay.
I'm sorry but you cannot scale Uryu to Jugram off the basis of "well he's not dead"
Vegeta didn't immediately die after doing absolutely zero damage and proceeding to get crippled by SPC.
Renji didn't immediately die after getting taken out of the fight by Yhwach when he and Ichigo caught up to him.
Renji didn't immediately die after getting bullied by Senbonzakura Kageyoshi
Goku didn't immediately die after getting bullied by Jiren until he 1st used U.I.O.
It's not a case of him tanking Jugrams attacks, he was literally all but beat before he used the Antithesis and both he and Jugram acknowledged this. Jugram even outright says he didn't want to beat him before night because The Balance is a better counter to his Antithesis then his "I can't believe it's not Almighty" is.
Then they would be scaling from Uryu most likely, which still keeps the scaling alive.
How? Uryu fights nobody but a small skirmish with Ichigo casually reacting to Licht Regen more shocked that Uryu actually had the cojones to launch it at him and Jugram who perfects him up until he uses the Antithesis.
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Yes because the Staff totally know Bleach well.
Not like we got people like Mitch admitting to not knowing the details of Bleach scaling that well. <-Nothing is wrong with this, but prolly shouldn't participate if you're admitting that.
Not like we got Damage arguing that lies are truths. Almost like he did this before...
Not like staff here are known for a bias against the HST or anything. It's the reason the Naruto thread is lowkey dead.
Not like ex-staff like Matt argued off of blatant falsehoods of Garganta being outer space.
The only people who think the staff are an accurate authority on Bleach are staff/mods + Kukui themselves.
Notice how the thread (outside of Warren bless his damned heart that man's a peach) is Staff + Kukui vs Regulars.
I've got SethTheProgrammer agreeing that by VSBW standards I'm correct and we all know that Seth can outdebate any of us here. I'd get clapped in a debate with him for sure lol, as would every regular and staff I've met here (it's of no offense it's just truth, go try and debate him).
I get people dming on the daily mentioning staff bias.
So forrrrrrrrrrgiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive me when I say I can't take this comment seriously. There's such a disconnect between staff and regulars here.
Which by default means that my arguments will come under more scrutiny and it means by default that staff are less likely support me, regardless of the argument.
Ehhhh it can be debated whether the universal split feat is universal via semantics, but by this wiki's standards I agree. Nothing is ever not up for debate, such is the nature of fiction.
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I don't think this is just a simple prejudice, unfortunately. we cannot know anything exactly, we are not the author of the series anyway, but with what the author told us, we can start the most logical way and finish this job, but the staff contradicts with himself at this
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The fact that bias against Bleach is a reason at all is unacceptable when staff parade themselves as unbiased authorities of fiction.
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I also find it ironic that there is a rule that clearly says "dont be bias againts a verse"
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staff does not bring anything new, while reio keeps the worlds at a 5B scale, nobody says no this is the soul cycle. When yhwach was at the planetary level I did not see anyone say no, this is happening with Almigthy via hax. I have never seen a single person deny that yhwach can destroy when the things that yhwach destroy are planetary or things of unknown size. If the bleach characters were 5A and someone gave the arguments that the staff gave, they were already said to have been debunked and the subject would have been closed, but when Bleach jumped to level 2, everyone started making nonsense claims and suddenly we saw High 6A, this is seriously funny because this is clearly a sign of 2-facedness. I don't know if I say that would be an insult to the staff, but that's exactly the case.
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Don’t forget the stability page made not specifically cause of Bleach lol. I’ve seen many people outside of the wiki that are spectating this notice how sus it is. All of a sudden they’re a problem.
Ive yet to see a single other character that’s rated this way be brought up in a CRT. I’d expect to see something if it was such a glaring issue ignored for years apparently.
Ive yet to see a single other character that’s rated this way be brought up in a CRT. I’d expect to see something if it was such a glaring issue ignored for years apparently.
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