BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Also I watched the stream, apparently seth wanted imade on his side

This is a funny story. Seth thought I was another user (there are 5 users with this same avi and we do this for a reason to confuse people and make certain people mad).

Seth thought one of them was me and wanted to debate them, that person gave Seth my Discord and I just randomly started debating a user through DMs. It wasn't even about Bleach or Naruto, but the nature of debate styles. Apparently Seth still thinks that person is me given they said the wrong name.

Also, today I learned that person was Seth.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I genuinely don't understand the "we cannot scale off statements because we made new rules to discredit WSK" argument.

The Soul King's stability feat is being argued to be unquantifiable, which whatever, let's steel man for a second. We have WSK stabilizing the universe as an unquantifiable feat, then we have Yhwach with multiple statements saying he's going to destroy that universe. Now the argument is because we can't quantify stabilization, we have no supporting feats for Yhwach's statements. However, even if we don't have the means of assigning a value to WSK's feat, we know he's keeping the realms, dangai, garganta from being destroyed. How is that not support? The WSK keeping everything from ceasing to exist is enough to tell us that this power is exerted across the universe in a way that affects the universe. This isn't the only supporting feat either lol.

Not to mention you have PSK's feat of creating the universe as support, you have Gremmy (SK's brain with a piece of Yhwach's soul) create a galaxy, you have Senna perform a diet WSK feat, and finally we have the databooks and novels state that those with the power of the SK can destroy/create the world (in obvious reference to the universe).

We can prove it's done through power and not hax lol. I just don't get it.

You have to argue against the narrative, Kubo even sketches the universe (beyond just planets) crumbling, he's practically telling us "if Ichigo's loses the universe is destroyed".

 

[Cyberblader90]

I think this problem sort of could have been handled better if Universal or higher had been really argued for peak yhwach, rather than his second key

 

[AppleLord]

I could not find it in volumes 1 and 2(Official Translation)
Is this something from volume 3?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

IMO a prereq for commenting on the god tiers should be reading the manga, all the novels (CFYOW, SAFWY, WDKALY, etc), and being aware of the unmasked scans.

 

[W0NDER3X]

IMO a prereq for commenting on the god tiers should be reading the manga, all the novels (CFYOW, SAFWY, WDKALY, etc), and being aware of the unmasked scans.

This should be the case with any verse tbh. Having surface level knowledge is not enough most of the time.

 

[Zoro21043]

im surprised it still hasnt been brought up but reio was going to maintain the worlds forever so yhwach absorbing him would put him at
high 3A bare minimum

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

im surprised it still hasnt been brought up but reio was going to maintain the worlds forever so yhwach absorbing him would put him at
high 3A bare minimum

Keeping one planet from collapsing passively would be 2.487e32 joules per second, if WSK had been doing that for 1 million years it would result in ~10^45 joules (4-B).

But we accept here that he stabilizes Soul Society, and that is a universe, shaking the universe is calc'd to 4-B/4-A, he's been doing that passively. So he's exerting at least 4-B/A joules per second (as we see the second he's gone shaking starts) over 1 million years would put him ~10^13 times above 4-B/4-A which is 3-C/3-B lmao.

 

[Zoro21043]

Keeping one planet from collapsing passively would be 2.487e32 joules per second, if WSK had been doing that for 1 million years it would result in ~10^45 joules (4-B).

But we accept here that he stabilizes Soul Society, and that is a universe, shaking the universe is calc'd to 4-B/4-A, he's been doing that passively. So he's exerting at least 4-B/A joules per second (as we see the second he's gone shaking starts) over 1 million years would put him ~10^13 times above 4-B/4-A which is 3-C/3-B lmao.

and based on yhwach's statement the worlds will never return to how they were
so the possibility of High 3A exists too ignoring the 2C meta

 

[AppleLord]

“I cited a specific instance in which a schrift should've been used, and it wasn't. Gerard's miracle works automatically, yet Yhwach wasn't revived with it but with the All-Mighty. That directly contradicts him having that power.”

“Yhwach's All-Mighty isn't passive nor automatic in its fate manipulation while Gerards Miracle is Automatic. It should've activated automatically and before All-Mighty.”

That is not quite correct. Miracle isn’t passive or automatic. Oetsu killed Gerard normally before he could used the Miracle. And the manga even said that Yhwach didn’t given them additional powers ups, Lille Barro simply didn’t had the chance to use X-Axis before. To add insult to injurie Askin said Pernida and Gerard always had their powers and Yhwach never given them those powers, only the letter to go alongside their powers. The chapter God Like You explains why Yhwach has all their memories, powers, abilities, etc.

 

[AppleLord]

You're saying: Reio controls soul flow on universal scale= Reio can affect things on a universal scale= Reio dies and we see two planets start shaking and are told the barriers between them almost broke= Earthquake must've been universal in scale.

I'm saying: We're shown two planets shaking and are told the barriers between them almost broke=Earthquake only covers these two areas.

Really?

Soul King’s Death Earthquakes was on Earth, Soul Society and Hueco Mundo. All the realms.

 

[AppleLord]

Look at this post. I gathered something interesting.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don’t get why people argue against stated facts so hard (in regards to Yhwach not really having the abilities). The lore very clearly explains he has their abilities since they were either his in 1st place or a power he takes from them. Just because he doesn’t use them doesn’t mean the lore is wrong.

 

[M11UTD]

I don’t get why people argue against stated facts so hard (in regards to Yhwach not really having the abilities). The lore very clearly explains he has their abilities since they were either his in 1st place or a power he takes from them. Just because he doesn’t use them doesn’t mean the lore is wrong.

Also at no point in the story Yhwach needed to use any ability other than the Almighty.

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t get why people argue against stated facts so hard (in regards to Yhwach not really having the abilities). The lore very clearly explains he has their abilities since they were either his in 1st place or a power he takes from them. Just because he doesn’t use them doesn’t mean the lore is wrong.

I think people's interpretations of the lore can be wrong. We're interpreting the statement to mean "Yhwach absorbs and can use the Schrifts himself", but while this may seem like the obvious conclusion to make, it's not stated as directly as that IMO.

Maybe Kubo was planning on going down that route like DIO having the power of all Stands, but either way I don't think there's enough hard evidence to say he can use any Schrift outside of the Almighty (and technically the Balance while he is asleep).

I know this will never change the mind of anyone who believes Yhwach can freely access and use the Schrifts. It's just one of those things that I persoanlly think requires more direct evidence than what we have got.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"Once they die his majesty takes his memories, skills and abilities"

Seems pretty straightforward

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Kubo: *Gives Yhwach the power to use every single ability the Sternritters have

Also Kubo: *Never once ever shows Yhwach using those powers even tho they would be really helpful and convenient

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Kubo: *Gives Yhwach the power to use every single ability the Sternritters have

Also Kubo: *Never once ever shows Yhwach using those powers even tho they would be really helpful and convenient

They would be helpful

Just like yamajis bankai would be helpful but he also never uses it

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

“I think people's interpretations of the lore can be wrong” I’m sorry not how do you interpret this differently?



“Abilities they’ve acquired”

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Yea, very straightforward

U have a piece of him and when u die all of the things skill, knowledge and any abilities go to him

 

[Damage3245]

Schrifts are not specified to be something he can use. Just because they go back to him doesn't mean he can activate and control them.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Schrifts are not specified to be something he can use. Just because they go back to him doesn't mean he can activate and control them.

Can u prove he cant use them? The manga says he has all of them u need to prove he cant use them

Otherwise is the same as with yamajis bankai, he has it but never uses it

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

A Schrift is an ability. It’s the only relevant thing. Specifically an ability embedded deep within the soul. The thing Yhwach absorbs. It’s crystal clear.

 

[Damage3245]

Can u prove he cant use them? The manga says he has all of them u need to prove he cant use them

Otherwise is the same as with yamajis bankai, he has it but never uses it

I don't have to. I'm not arguing for them to be removed from his profile. I'm fine with the current compromise that mentions he may have them but he's never used them.

@Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye; can you prove that he can use them after he's absorbed them?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I mean, that's literally the same as saying he can't use Yamamoto's bankai cause he didn't, as others have said. I don't get where this questioning is even coming from tbh

 

[Tyri456]

The profile doesn’t even assume he has them for sure, so If someone make a match can decide to use them or not; the manga flat out state he acquire the “knowledge and the abilities“ that’s pretty specific knowing the existence of the Schrits, though. So it’s fair. Both side have a point because by not using them You do not know the absolute thruth neither how he use them. That is why is treated like that.

By the way, I do not think you guys have to discuss for something like that, keep calm.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The profile doesn’t even assume he has them for sure, so If someone make a match can decide to use them or not; the manga flat out state he acquire the “knowledge and the abilities“ that’s pretty specific knowing the existence of the Schrits, though. So it’s fair. Both side have a point. That is why is treated like that.

By the way, I do not think you guys have to discuss for something like that, keep calm.

Is actually treated as him having them but he does not use them in character

So VS made saying he uses them are considered ooc for those reasons same as people making a VS with him using bankai on those VS he is ooc as in character he uses neither

 

[Tyri456]

yeah, I have edited that part, the point still remain the same though.

 

[Zezu1995]

allow me to explain the abilities part in short yes he has them but almighty was better BUT... one thing people get confused he ONLY has the powers of the ones that are DEAD... not alive, even with aswaulen if they survive it he would just have their rei powers but still have to wait till they die so their souls can go back to him then he has their abilities. it was also stated in the novel he gave gremmy "visionary" .., and manga he gets all their "talents,powers and abiltiies" which would include their hax.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It's not like character induced stupidity is a thing or anything. . .

You don't need everything handed to you like an open book. Making logical inferences based on the lore and the surrounding context is not a new concept.

If an object sounds like a duck, smells like a duck, looks like a duck, and acts like a duck, then the most logical conclusion is that it is a duck.

Why would they discuss that "Everything you have goes back to Yhwach" if he wasn't able to utilize those gifts, abilities, memories, and experience? If he just about his need for their souls to live, then Yhwach gaining X Y Z things from the souls wouldn't be mentioned at all.

 

[Zezu1995]

like do you know how hard it is to kill juha with almighty and all stern Hax? lol kubo wrote himself into a corner just like kishi and nabaka did with madara and demon kings "ruler" it used to reverse EVERYTHING but nabaka had to retcon it TWICE.. has for madara he was just too broken

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You don't need everything handed to you like an open book.

Now we all know certain staff need to be spoon fed lmao

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hope is low folks, Kukui and Damage still think that when a statement is called a lie it's actually the truth. Kukui's arguments have devolved to "your points are irrelevant I'm right".

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Same counter arguments I expected. Ya da ya da multiple interpretations. They’re even still on the conclusion that Almighty is a separate rating. Even though Reio’s power is what created the verse.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Despite Ichigo, Hikone, and Ginjo being SK candidates and Aizen being stated in the databooks to be able to become SK, all of which have no Almighty.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

“In order to turn this division into a reality, what was required was the power of a man who transcended everything”

 

[Tsubasa16]

I think they are kinda misunderstanding the whole "Soul Cycle threating the Cosmology" thing? The Soul Cycle going out of balance is stated that would make Soul Society and Human World start to mingle and merge back together (causting them collapse), what the Soul King does is sustain these realms's existences in the first place and without him they will be destroyed/cease to exist. Also the Soul Cycle going out of balance thing is only ever stated as affecting the Living World and Soul Society, and those are not the only Realms the Soul King maintains.

Again, if the Soul King had anything to do with actively stabilizing the Soul Cycle anyway, the Shinigami would not need to actively be the ones to keep the Soul Cycle in balance.

 

[Tsubasa16]

Kukui seems to be under the assumption that "Sustaining a realm's existence = said realm is completely indestructible as long as you're sustaining it"

All the Soul King does is mantaining the realms's existences from naturally collpasing, he does not actively prevent them from being destroyed by an outside factor (in this case the Soul Cycle). And again, the Soul Cycle being out of balance only is ever stated as affecting the Living World and SS, the other realms the SK mantains are never stated to be threatened by it, so it is not really "affecting the whole cosmology".

 

[Tsubasa16]

"So that means your literally saying that the Soul Kings sustanance doesnt scale to the worlds destruction if it cant stop the realms from being destroyed by other factors."

No, it means the Soul King scales to the natural collpase of the realms that he is passively preventing to happen and not to something completely unrelated to said natural collpase. Without the Soul King all realms would collpase and cease to be for the simple reason he is not sustaining their existences anymore, while with the Soul Cycle out of Balance only the SS and Living World would start to merge back together and thus collapse.

Soul King prevents the natural collapse of the realms and mantains their existences, the Soul Cycle is an outisde factor that has no relation to said natural collpase that he prevents.

 

[Duedate8898]

You're saying: Reio controls soul flow on universal scale= Reio can affect things on a universal scale= Reio dies and we see two planets start shaking and are told the barriers between them almost broke= Earthquake must've been universal in scale.

I'm saying: We're shown two planets shaking and are told the barriers between them almost broke=Earthquake only covers these two areas.

Really?

Soul King’s Death Earthquakes was on Earth, Soul Society and Hueco Mundo. All the realms.

I will admit fault here, never realized that the bottom right panel was Hueco Mondo. However, my main point about those quakes being shown only on planets and not the wider universe still stands.