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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Warren_Valion said:
Anyway, I think we should make a list of all the upcoming and ongoing CRTs for Bleach.
Click to expand...
Ongoing:
Upcoming:
  • Bleach Souls CRT (like the number of souls associated with hax and hollows and such)
  • Thing about Urahara and Ichigo implying you need spiritual attacks to harm spiritual beings
  • Refining scaling chains (I know Damage hinted at some issues/nitpicks with some scaling)
  • Toshiro dodging Gin's sword (not a CRT but a calc evaluation since there was unresolved conflict on whether it was properly calculated)
  • Refining the God Tiers tiering (after the cosmology blog is made)
  • Lille light CRT featuring Auswahlen and Renji dodging light (more or less a CRT on if lightspeed is consistent in TYBW, don't plan on doing this for a while Bleach speed CRTs are tiring)
Oh I guess to add to upcoming CRTs:
  • Addressing the Mimihagi scaling or receiving a new type of conceptual manipulation
  • Gremmy's creation feat

This is all I can remember off the top of the noggin.
 
Last edited:
Axxtentacle said:
Pretty sure Lille is > normal light, but I could be wrong
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I mean it depends on what speed meta you use. Like if you scale the Negacion to lightspeed, then Lille prolly climbs to like MFTL or MFTL+, if you use Gin's Mach 500 statement then he's MHS to MHS+, if you say he's made of light that acts like real light then he's light speed.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Ongoing:
Upcoming:
  • Bleach Souls CRT (like the number of souls associated with hax and hollows and such)
  • Thing about Urahara and Ichigo implying you need spiritual attacks to harm spiritual beings
  • Refining scaling chains (I know Damage hinted at some issues/nitpicks with some scaling)
  • Toshiro dodging Gin's sword (not a CRT but a calc evaluation since there was unresolved conflict on whether it was properly calculated)
  • Refining the God Tiers tiering (after the cosmology blog is made)
  • Lille light CRT featuring Auswahlen and Renji dodging light (more or less a CRT on if lightspeed is consistent in TYBW, don't plan on doing this for a while Bleach speed CRTs are tiring)

This is all I can remember off the top of the noggin.
Click to expand...
Facts.

Wasn't there also supposed to be a Reactive Power level addition to all spiritual beings based on Urahara's statements which are then reaffirmed with a statement from Grimmjow?
 
Warren_Valion said:
Wasn't there also supposed to be a Reactive Power level addition to all spiritual beings based on Urahara's statements which are then reaffirmed with a statement from Grimmjow?
Click to expand...
I don't remember, but maybe there should just be a big Bleach Abilities CRT that addresses the "need spiritual attacks to harm spiritual beings" and reactive power levels, among any other potential ability additions.
 
Was'nt there something in the novel about Gremmy imagining the entire galaxy or space he trapped Kenpachi in rather than just creating a portal to space?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I don't remember, but maybe there should just be a big Bleach Abilities CRT that addresses the "need spiritual attacks to harm spiritual beings" and reactive power levels, among any other potential ability additions.
Click to expand...
Yeah.

Urahara said that when under pressure a soul grows stronger and shit.

And then Grimmjow asked Ichigo if he got stronger through training or through fighting.
 
Oh I guess to add to upcoming CRTs:
  • Addressing the Mimihagi scaling or receiving a new type of conceptual manipulation
  • Gremmy's creation feat
 
Warren_Valion said:
Again, you aren't making a point.

You're just writing verbal fluff.

Your responses on this topic are reading like an 8th grader's English paper. You are just going on and on about how this interpretation is wrong in different ways, artificially increasing your responses to make it look like you are saying something with merit, but you aren't actually explaining why it is wrong, making those responses hollow.

All you are doing here is describing, and apparently incorrectly so since AFAIK the Soul King created the World of the Living as well, the Soul King's feat of creating every realm in Bleach (Barring Hell) - which is the tier 3 to tier 2 feat that we are using for our current scaling, and then you are saying that your way of interpreting the feat is better because it doesn't "destroy the scaling", but you don't explain what that even means, or even how your interpretation is any different.

You need to explain why the Soul King's creation of the worlds, Yhwach's destruction of the worlds, and Weakened Soul King maintaining creation feats/statements aren't Tier 3 to Tier 2 feats and what tier they are instead of tier 3 to tier 2, and you need to explain how this ruins the scaling as you claim and how your scaling won't do that.

If you are going to make all these claims, the Burden of Proof falls to you to prove them right.

You keep claiming that the argument is wanked, but you aren't specifying why that is so, this could be just a simple misunderstanding on your part, so I will ask.

What specific problem do you have with the logic and reasoning for the character's current tiering?
Click to expand...
So, because I am not agreeing with how the setting can suddenly jump from Multi-Continent level to Low Multiversal, suddenly the burden of proof must be on me to disprove your interpretation. Even though your post is showing that you'll refuse to budge from your interpretation, no matter what.

Since you're arguing the Soul King created the World of the Living in its entirety, let me ask this: what point would there be in the Soul King creating hundreds of billions of galaxies, the hundreds of billions of stars each galaxy contains, contained within an observable Universe 93 billion light-years in diameter...When Earth is the only place in that whole expanse that has Souls living upon it?

The manga shows that the Soul King's death led to earth-quakes in the Living World, and the physical material of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo starting to disintegrate. We know that Yhwach making the worlds one again would have resulted in the destruction of the spaces Soul Society and Hueco Mundo resided within. At a minimum, that's planetary to solar-system level.

As it happens, having the scope of the Soul King's creations be "universe-sized" changes nothing about what is shown in-story. However, it would be woefully inconsistent with the manga's internal power-scaling.

I.e. I feel the interpretation exists because you guys want to believe Ichigo, Yhwach, Aizen and the Soul King are guys that can contend with Universe-level opponents, regardless of how removed from the story that interpretation is.
 
Catalyst75 said:
So, because I am not agreeing with how the setting can suddenly jump from Multi-Continent level to Low Multiversal, suddenly the burden of proof must be on me to disprove your interpretation. Even though your post is showing that you'll refuse to budge from your interpretation, no matter what.
Click to expand...
You not believing a setting can jump from tier 6 to tier 3/2 is not an argument.

Catalyst75 said:
Since you're arguing the Soul King created the World of the Living in its entirety, let me ask this: what point would there be in the Soul King creating hundreds of billions of galaxies, the hundreds of billions of stars each galaxy contains, contained within an observable Universe 93 billion light-years in diameter...When Earth is the only place in that whole expanse that has Souls living upon it?
Click to expand...
What's the point in our universe being 93 billion light-years in observable diameter when the only confirmed intelligent life is on Earth? It's what happened there doesn't need to be a further point to it. If you'd like a "what's the point" Kubo based the World of the Living on our irl universe, so it's that big because the author wrote it like that.

Catalyst75 said:
The manga shows that the Soul King's death led to earth-quakes in the Living World, and the physical material of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo starting to disintegrate. We know that Yhwach making the worlds one again would have resulted in the destruction of the spaces Soul Society and Hueco Mundo resided within. At a minimum, that's planetary to solar-system level.
Click to expand...
We also know that he was going to destroy the Garganta. Which is infinite if you take Aura's word for law, and bare minimum universal in size by this wiki's standards.

Catalyst75 said:
As it happens, having the scope of the Soul King's creations be "universe-sized" changes nothing about what is shown in-story. However, it would be woefully inconsistent with the manga's internal power-scaling.
Click to expand...
It is not inconsistent, the God Tiers only scale to themselves, their only legit feats are against themselves.

Catalyst75 said:
I.e. I feel the interpretation exists because you guys want to believe Ichigo, Yhwach, Aizen and the Soul King are guys that can contend with Universe-level opponents, regardless of how removed from the story that interpretation is.
Click to expand...
Technically any interpretation is because that's how the interpreter believes it to be. Which interpretation is more valid? Depends on who has the better evidence and is able to convey it better at the time. I'm sure someone somewhere down the line, will make a Bleach downgrade CRT where they're able to debate much better than I and convey things much better as well, thus capture the majority of the votes. Just how things work.
 
Which is infinite if you take Aura's word for law, and bare minimum universal in size by this wiki's standards.
Click to expand...

Just a thought but how would Aura actually know that the Garganta is infinite?
 
Damage3245 said:
Just a thought but how would Aura actually know that the Garganta is infinite?
Click to expand...
So I went into this a bit in the actual thread.

But there's three interpretations I believe you can realistically have with Aura's statement, this is a very TLDR version lol:
  1. Because she's delivering it as a monologue to the reader, it should be viewed as the author giving us exposition.
  2. She has well researched into the creation of the Bleach cosmos and that's how she knows.
  3. It's so big (like our universe in real life) that it might as well be infinite.
Because you could say "how does Yhwach know he can destroy the worlds and everything connected if he doesn't do it" and you could apply that most anything, but at that point you're arguing against author intent.
 
Catalyst75 said:
So, because I am not agreeing with how the setting can suddenly jump from Multi-Continent level to Low Multiversal, suddenly the burden of proof must be on me to disprove your interpretation. Even though your post is showing that you'll refuse to budge from your interpretation, no matter what.

Since you're arguing the Soul King created the World of the Living in its entirety, let me ask this: what point would there be in the Soul King creating hundreds of billions of galaxies, the hundreds of billions of stars each galaxy contains, contained within an observable Universe 93 billion light-years in diameter...When Earth is the only place in that whole expanse that has Souls living upon it?

The manga shows that the Soul King's death led to earth-quakes in the Living World, and the physical material of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo starting to disintegrate. We know that Yhwach making the worlds one again would have resulted in the destruction of the spaces Soul Society and Hueco Mundo resided within. At a minimum, that's planetary to solar-system level.

As it happens, having the scope of the Soul King's creations be "universe-sized" changes nothing about what is shown in-story. However, it would be woefully inconsistent with the manga's internal power-scaling.

I.e. I feel the interpretation exists because you guys want to believe Ichigo, Yhwach, Aizen and the Soul King are guys that can contend with Universe-level opponents, regardless of how removed from the story that interpretation is.
Click to expand...
You not accepting a large jump in power because you don't accept it is an argument from incredulity, which is a logical fallacy, and not a legitimate argument. I'm not "refusing" to budge from my interpretation out of stubbornness or my desire to see Ichigo be Tier 3/2 (I couldn't give two ***** on what his tier is). I am doing so because you haven't shown any proof that your interpretation is valid in any way whatsoever. Hell, you've barely even showcased what your interpretation is.

I used to be avidly against Tier 3/2 Bleach, but then I saw compelling arguments for it, and guess what? Now I agree with it. If the logic is sound, then the argument is solid. Your problem is that you aren't making an argument, you are just complaining that things are wanked because the characters are too strong. "In my opinion/interpretation. . . " is not an argument, nor is it a legitimate defense from having your statements criticized.


And what? What point does any creator god ever in any fiction have to make an entire universe when the only activity is on a singular planet? It doesn't ******* matter why the Soul King (Or any other creator god) did what they did, it's just that they did it. And the manga shows us other planets, countless stars, and galaxies, showing us that yes, he did do those things, that they exist. He also created realms that are parallel to the World of the Living in size as well.


The manga shows everything shaking with everyone saying, "We are all going to die, everything will be destroyed because X Y Z." - the context is what defines the feat, you can't just ignore what's being said.

And to try and insinuate that Yhwach wasn't going to affect the realm itself is pure negligence. It is explicitly stated that the three realms, and everything attached to them, like the Dangai and Gargantua, are all going to be destroyed and fused into a new world by Yhwach's power (Reversing what the Soul King did originally in an attempt to rid creation of the cycle of Life and Death - this was Yhwach's grand plan), it is explicitly stated that the Prime Soul King created nigh-everything in creation and that the Weakened Soul King maintains this creation, and that said creation will be destroyed upon his death without a suitable replacement.


Literally ******* how would any of this be inconsistent? Nothing but the God tiers scale to these feats, the same characters who were Planet level are now universal, the scaling remains unaffected, the only difference is the tiering of the feats that these characters scale too. You can't just say something is inconsistent, prove that it is. Give us examples.


Finally, no.

The problem is that you can't compute the idea of these characters being a certain tier, so you are complaining about it and making hollow statements like it "breaks the story's internal power-scaling" or it is "removed from how the narrative tells of the events", but you don't give any explanation as to why that is so.

You need to construct an actual argument if you want to contest the ratings on this wiki. So either do that or just leave if you can't handle it.

With that said, I will not respond to you again until you do so as this is a waste of my time otherwise.
 
Damage3245 said:
I'm pretty sure one anti-feat that comes to mind if Chad hitting a hollow with a telephone pole.
Click to expand...
wasnt it kinda explained (not directly ) but in fullbringer arc that fullbringers can bring out the soul of ANYTHING? so would chad be doing that but didnt know?
 
I don't remember either, mainly because I don't really care for anything Pre-Soul Society in Bleach.

But like, if the hollow didn't sustain any damage, then it wouldn't be an anti-feat, right?
 
And even if it did hurt the hollow Chad is actually treated as a weird guy, his strength is always a point of notice in the beginning of the series to the point where they don't even think he is human
 
Warren_Valion said:
And what? What point does any creator god ever in any fiction have to make an entire universe when the only activity is on a singular planet? It doesn't ******* matter why the Soul King (Or any other creator god) did what they did, it's just that they did it.
Click to expand...
Arc7Kuroi said:
What's the point in our universe being 93 billion light-years in observable diameter when the only confirmed intelligent life is on Earth? It's what happened there doesn't need to be a further point to it. If you'd like a "what's the point" Kubo based the World of the Living on our irl universe, so it's that big because the author wrote it like that.
Click to expand...
Are you both offering up the arguments that "other creator gods do it in fiction" and "we're the only confirmed life in the universe in real life anyway" as justification? Really? I'd give a response, but this speaks for itself.

Warren_Valion said:
I am doing so because you haven't shown any proof that your interpretation is valid in any way whatsoever. Hell, you've barely even showcased what your interpretation is.
Click to expand...
Because you clearly missed it:

"The manga shows that the Soul King's death led to earth-quakes in the Living World, and the physical material of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo starting to disintegrate. We know that Yhwach making the worlds one again would have resulted in the destruction of the spaces Soul Society and Hueco Mundo resided within. At a minimum, that's planetary to solar-system level."

The version of the characters from before you made the current "revisions" is the interpretation of feats I agree with.
 
Catalyst75 said:
We know that Yhwach making the worlds one again would have resulted in the destruction of the spaces Soul Society and Hueco Mundo resided within
Click to expand...
Destroying the space within the Soul Society realm is Universal.

Also we know that Yhwach was going to destroy the entire Garganta which can be argued Universal to Universal+.

Just read my google doc if you want a TLDR of the thread.
 
No, that's not the argument, the argument is "it doesn't ******* matter".

Why he did what he did is irrelevant, what matters is that he did it. Just like how it doesn't ******* matter why any other creator god does it, it just that the feat was done and that we can prove that he did it.


Stating a tier you like =/= making an argument with reasonings as to why they should be that tier.

I am asking for the latter, you are giving the former.

And the reason for Bleach God tiers being 5-B is based on information that is directly contradicted from the source material.

Yhwach isn't just merging the planets, he is explicitly stated that be affected everything, including the spaces that surround the realms as well, like the Dangai, Gargantua, Reio's Dimension (Which had a sun, btw), Muken/Mugen, etc.

You're "interpretation" is made objectively false by the source material.

If this is not the case, you have to prove why this isn't the case, you can't just hide behind, "it's my interpretation/opinion" - that is not a shield from criticism as I have said before.

If you make a positive claim like, "Bleach God tiers are planet level", then the Burden of Proof is on you to do just that, and prove it. That's how debating works.
 
If you don't like where they are right now, you explain where they should be with proofs. I don't like where they should be.
 
funny enough, even if the low 2-c gets removed, the novels prove SK yhwach going to revert PSK's feat, and that would put him (and Ichigo) at "at least 4-A" anyway, which is still leaps and bounds above the rating downplayers would like to see Bleach at
 
Zoro21043 said:
do you guys think gremmys galaxy room would scale to his stats after the novel confirmed he made it
Click to expand...
The only thing the novels said (from the translation I've seen so far) is that he imagined the vacuum of outer space. Not that he actually created all of the stars/galaxies.
 
"He could convert what he imagined into reality... he had materialized a gigantic meteor and outer space itself in the Seireitei." ~CFYOW II
"On top of that, the ability to instantaneously create outer space..." ~CFYOW II
 
This wouldn't scale to physical stats though, right?

Wouldn't this be like "6-A physically. Unknown with his own imagination, at least 4-A to 3-C with Six/Seven Clones" or whatever?
 
If he did not open a gremmy portal and created the space himself, did not he create the contents himself? Where could the stars in the space he created come from?
 
Warren_Valion said:
This wouldn't scale to physical stats though, right?

Wouldn't this be like "6-A physically. Unknown with his own imagination, at least 4-A to 3-C with Six/Seven Clones" or whatever?
Click to expand...
I mean I see both sides. Because if we aren't gonna scale Gremmy to his own Visionary then he is Unknown, since currently he scales to his meteor.

It's just another creation feat so I don't see why he can't scale. Also, 6 clones could imagine 4-A/3-C outer space but couldn't kill Shikai Kenpachi, and Gremmy could imagine 6 clones that could imagine 4-A/3-C outer space, but he couldn't imagine Kenpachi's power without dying. So there's an argument for Shikai Kenpachi scaling, which would make Royal Palace Training Byakuya, Adult Toshiro, and forms of Gerard scale.

It would also upscale Bankai Yama and Ichibe via this: Gremmy < Past Yhwach < Past Yama ~ Yama ~ Yhwach ~ Ichibe.

So if Gremmy scales to it you'd have Gremmy, base Yhwach, Bankai Yama, Ichibe, Royal Guard Byakuya, Adult Toshiro, Large Gerard, Shikai Kenpachi all scaling to it. This may also upscale some novel characters maybe (I don't know who fights Byakuya).

Albeit there isn't really a good argument to not let him scale to his own creation feat, outside of tier 4 Bleach high tiers is a big number. It definitely needs its own CRT tho. Bare minimum Gremmy should get 4-A/3-C with the Visionary (which is good support for SK upscaling that).
 
Warren_Valion said:
This wouldn't scale to physical stats though, right?

Wouldn't this be like "6-A physically. Unknown with his own imagination, at least 4-A to 3-C with Six/Seven Clones" or whatever?
Click to expand...
i dont think others agree but i think 1/7th(depending on the number of clones he made i forgot) of it would scale to his physical stats due to each clone doubling his power of imagination which would be like this
1 gremmy has X amount of energy to create stuff with
with 1 clone he would have 2X thus doubling his power of imagination
0576-017.png
 
Yeah there's also the thing of "doubling the power of my imagination" because if you apply that linearly, that meteor would probably be going at MFTL speeds lol. At the same time we don't know the speed of the meteor so you could argue that. There's also the whole point of does 2x imagination power = 2x AP. Lotta stuff to go into, especially with checking scaling chains with CFYOW.

You could argue that Gremmy imagined Kenpachi's full power (aka Bankai) and then only Bankai Kenpachi, Past Yhwach, Past Yama, Bankai Yama now, and base Yhwach would scale. This might be a bit easier to process. And honestly Bankai Yama does have the destroy Soul Society quote which you can argue applies to the realm, which from the inside could be a 3-A feat. So it's not exactly that out there.
 
Again though, creating "outer space" =/= creating stars and galaxies. The point of his attack was to put Kenpachi into a vacuum.

If he could create an entire galaxy why wouldn't he hit Kenpachi with that instead of space? Why rely on things like guns, missiles, water or lava if he could create a star? Why would his doubled imagination only create a measly meteor if just a few more of him could imagine galaxies into existence? There's a certain point where you have to stop and think things through.

It's not reasonable to try and upgrade Gremmy to 4-A/3-C based on the visuals alone. It also has to make sense within the story and this does not make sense.
 
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