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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Shikai Kenpachi took a suicide bomb from the 7 Gremmy which is why he's x7 for Shikai.

Aizen no-sold a Reiatsu attack from Soul King Yhwach that destroyed his chair.
Click to expand...
That's not an AP feat though.

So we shouldn't be saying that Kenpachi's AP gets a 7x multiplier.
 
"Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Stated to be above the Soul King, subjugated the Soul King with his own power)"

When did this ever happen, btw? I don't remember this being stated. ^

I feel a description like this should have some scans, ya know?


Also, this:

"Medallion A device possessed by select members of the Wandenreich military, including all Sternritter which allows one to steal a Shinigami's Bankai or any power that is fundamentally similar to a Shinigami's Bankai."

The link is dead, I think this is the image that was used, but I am unsure. Might want to fix that.
 
The descriptions of Yhwach's profile and the rest need to be changed and improved, for those who do not know and enter the profile, will not understand why they have such a level.
 
Warren_Valion said:
When did this ever happen, btw? I don't remember this being stated. ^

I feel a description like this should have some scans, ya know?
Click to expand...

From what I've observed, it's based on an extreme high-end interpretation of the nature of the cosmology from "Can't Fear Your Own World" - the Soul King created the spaces within which Soul Society and Hueco Mundo reside (as well as the Garganta and Dangai), and they've interpreted that to mean those spaces are around the size of a universe each. Along with saying that the entire dimension of the World of the Living was also created by the Soul King when he separated life and death.

Rather than, say, pocket dimensions linked to the Material World in Bleach and maintained solely by his existence.
 
Catalyst75 said:
From what I've observed, it's based on an extreme high-end interpretation of the nature of the cosmology from "Can't Fear Your Own World" - the Soul King created the spaces within which Soul Society and Hueco Mundo reside (as well as the Garganta and Dangai), and they've interpreted that to mean those spaces are around the size of a universe each. Along with saying that the entire dimension of the World of the Living was also created by the Soul King when he separated life and death.

Rather than, say, pocket dimensions linked to the Material World in Bleach and maintained solely by his existence.
Click to expand...
No, the interpretation on the profiles is correct. I am one of its biggest supporters. And the upgrade uses cosmology from multiple sources, but mainly the manga, not Can't Fear Your Own World.

My problem is where is it ever said that Almighty Yhwach is > than the Soul King, since I don't remember that being stated.
 
0620-014.png

i think this
tho he could be referring to mimihagi not rei o
but he does say you may have foreseen the future and we know rei o is the one who could not mimihagi

i think a better justification is him stabbing reio but his durability is rated as unknown so theres that
 
I forgot but Yhwach’s age needs to be changed to like Possibly 1,000,000 years 🤔


"If Yhwach was the originator of the race known as the Quincy, then the Rei-o can be called the source
of the very power of the Quincy. Whether the Rei-o had left behind an actual child before he was sealed
or whether the 'power' that was stripped off the Rei-o had manifested in the form of a person, I couldn't
really say."
 
Zoro21043 said:
0620-014.png

i think this
tho he could be referring to mimihagi not rei o
but he does say you may have foreseen the future and we know rei o is the one who could not mimihagi

i think a better justification is him stabbing reio but his durability is rated as unknown so theres that
Click to expand...
I am almost entirely sure this refers to Mimihagi, which was determined to be hax, not AP, right?

A better justification is him being >= True Shikai Ichigo through their fight.
 
Warren_Valion said:
I am almost entirely sure this refers to Mimihagi, which was determined to be hax, not AP, right?

A better justification is him being >= True Shikai Ichigo through their fight.
Click to expand...
yea it ended up being hax not ap.
Just like him not scaling to soul kings durability as its unknown ts ichigo has yet to be accepted so he also wont scale to/above him for 3A
 
Warren_Valion said:
No, the interpretation on the profiles is correct. I am one of its biggest supporters. And the upgrade uses cosmology from multiple sources, but mainly the manga, not Can't Fear Your Own World.
Click to expand...
Except, I disagree with it. The resulting differences between the "God tiers" and every other tier in the series would be too many orders of magnitudes to make sense, and I feel this specific interpretation people are arguing for is based on high-ends interpretations chosen by the interpreters to produce that result. I.e. That it "must be Universe-level" based on translations that use the word "universe" to describe what would happen if the balance of souls was disrupted.

There's even someone suggesting that Yhwach's age be changed to "1,000,000 years old"...Even though the manga itself has established that Yhwach is, at minimum, 1,200 years old.

The only realistic interpretation I can think of is one where the Soul Society and Hueco Mundo are just big enough to contain whatever celestial bodies are necessary, and that the Original World became the Material World after the Soul King's power split matter and reishi - life and death - from one another.
 
Can I see the scan where Yhwach’s age is told? You’d be the 1st to know seeing as no one within the verse even know how, where, or even when he was born.

A knowledgeable character of the lore shares the 2 most likely scenarios of Yhwach’s conception.
 
Every form of tiering and scaling is "chosen by the interpreters" - this isn't a rebuttal. We look at the source material and determine the logic of the feats.

What are you even talking about?

The Soul King maintains every world in existence, the worlds are universal in size, and upon his death, everything will be destroyed as shown we it includes the other-dimensional spaces like the Muken, Reio's Palace, Dangai, and Gargantua are also about to be destroyed. The Soul King in his prime literally created the three worlds and Yhwach's goal was to reverse that, That's why they are the tier they are because that is the tier of their feats. There are numerous characters who scale to these characters and these feats.

You aren't even making a counter-argument, you're just saying I disagree so it shouldn't be like that, they are too strong. Which at best, sounds like an argument from incredulity to me, which is a logical fallacy.

I can nearly guarantee that no complaint that you have hasn't been brought up in the thread that got them their current tiering after literally hundreds upon hundreds of comments of dudes yelling to one another about this topic.
 
looks like the blog is needed asap
Catalyst75 said:
Except, I disagree with it. The resulting differences between the "God tiers" and every other tier in the series would be too many orders of magnitudes to make sense, and I feel this specific interpretation people are arguing for is based on high-ends interpretations chosen by the interpreters to produce that result. I.e. That it "must be Universe-level" based on translations that use the word "universe" to describe what would happen if the balance of souls was disrupted.

There's even someone suggesting that Yhwach's age be changed to "1,000,000 years old"...Even though the manga itself has established that Yhwach is, at minimum, 1,200 years old.

The only realistic interpretation I can think of is one where the Soul Society and Hueco Mundo are just big enough to contain whatever celestial bodies are necessary, and that the Original World became the Material World after the Soul King's power split matter and reishi - life and death - from one another.
Click to expand...
-its not through balance of souls thats fan translation rei o maintains it through his own power
-this isnt high end in fact its downplay, soul king split the physical and spiritual forms of the og universe (like how rukia can separates ichigos soul from his body) and thats why they mirror each other and are equal in size
based on this they should be tier 2C and then there is garganta and the kyogokus that keep forming in the garganta frequently
-yhwach has a possibility of being 1 million years old sigurd provided a statement from the official novel
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
Can I see the scan where Yhwach’s age is told? You’d be the 1st to know seeing as no one within the verse even know how, where, or even when he was born.

A knowledgeable character of the lore shares the 2 most likely scenarios of Yhwach’s conception.
Click to expand...

Chapter 565 and chapters 631 633. Yhwach was born during a time period and in a place where YHWH was worshipped by the people, and Yhwach chose his named based on what the people who worshipped him called him. In Bazz-B and Haschwalth's flash-back, it's made rather clear that Yhwach's at least 200 years old, made clear by the fact that he himself states Haschwalth is the first Quincy like him - a Quincy born with the ability to share power with others - to be born in two hundred years.


Warren_Valion said:
Every form of tiering and scaling is "chosen by the interpreters" - this isn't a rebuttal. We look at the source material and determine the logic of the feats.

What are you even talking about?
Click to expand...
I'm talking about what I suspect is an example of people first choosing what they want the feats to be like, and then they word the "logic of the feats" to fit the conclusion they wanted from the start.

I.e. Someone decides they want "Universal-level" Bleach instead of "multi-solar system", so they take feats and statements, reinterpret them to fit their pre-established conclusions, then present it as "logic", regardless of how woefully inconsistent it is from the rest of the setting.


Warren_Valion said:
The Soul King maintains every world in existence, the worlds are universal in size, and upon his death, everything will be destroyed as shown we it includes the other-dimensional spaces like the Muken, Reio's Palace, Dangai, and Gargantua are also about to be destroyed. The Soul King in his prime literally created the three worlds and Yhwach's goal was to reverse that, That's why they are the tier they are because that is the tier of their feats. There are numerous characters who scale to these characters and these feats.
Click to expand...
Case in point.

Only one world can be reliably said to be part of a wider universe in its own right - the Living World, the only world to contain both reishi and kishi. The Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, on the other hand, are realms made purely of reishi and are the construction of the Soul King, including the spaces containing them. The one exception to this is Hell.

The Soul King created the physical worlds of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo and the spaces which separate them from the Living World. That's the safest interpretation to go for when it comes to the Soul King and those comparable, and it doesn't end up breaking the power-scaling in-universe into a million pieces.

Warren_Valion said:
I can nearly guarantee that no complaint that you have hasn't been brought up in the thread that got them their current tiering after literally hundreds upon hundreds of comments of dudes yelling to one another about this topic.
Click to expand...
And I can promise you that my criticisms would be freely applied to any other interpretations that I feel are built on similar biases that I believe this interpretation is.
 
Catalyst75 said:
Case in point.

Only one world can be reliably said to be part of a wider universe in its own right - the Living World, the only world to contain both reishi and kishi. The Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, on the other hand, are realms made purely of reishi and are the construction of the Soul King, including the spaces containing them. The one exception to this is Hell.

The Soul King created the physical worlds of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo and the spaces which separate them from the Living World. That's the safest interpretation to go for when it comes to the Soul King and those comparable, and it doesn't end up breaking the power-scaling in-universe into a million pieces.


And I can promise you that my criticisms would be freely applied to any other interpretations that I feel are built on similar biases that I believe this interpretation is.
Click to expand...

Again, you aren't making a point.

You're just writing verbal fluff.

Your responses on this topic are reading like an 8th grader's English paper. You are just going on and on about how this interpretation is wrong in different ways, artificially increasing your responses to make it look like you are saying something with merit, but you aren't actually explaining why it is wrong, making those responses hollow.

All you are doing here is describing, and apparently incorrectly so since AFAIK the Soul King created the World of the Living as well, the Soul King's feat of creating every realm in Bleach (Barring Hell) - which is the tier 3 to tier 2 feat that we are using for our current scaling, and then you are saying that your way of interpreting the feat is better because it doesn't "destroy the scaling", but you don't explain what that even means, or even how your interpretation is any different.

You need to explain why the Soul King's creation of the worlds, Yhwach's destruction of the worlds, and Weakened Soul King maintaining creation feats/statements aren't Tier 3 to Tier 2 feats and what tier they are instead of tier 3 to tier 2, and you need to explain how this ruins the scaling as you claim and how your scaling won't do that.

If you are going to make all these claims, the Burden of Proof falls to you to prove them right.

You keep claiming that the argument is wanked, but you aren't specifying why that is so, this could be just a simple misunderstanding on your part, so I will ask.

What specific problem do you have with the logic and reasoning for the character's current tiering?
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
I forgot but Yhwach’s age needs to be changed to like Possibly 1,000,000 years 🤔


"If Yhwach was the originator of the race known as the Quincy, then the Rei-o can be called the source
of the very power of the Quincy. Whether the Rei-o had left behind an actual child before he was sealed
or whether the 'power' that was stripped off the Rei-o had manifested in the form of a person, I couldn't
really say."
Click to expand...
The manga said that a Quincy with similar powers to Yhwach is born every 200 years. And Yhwach was the “last” to appeared in the last 1,200 years. Is possible he keeps reincarnating or reviving himself with the Almighty.
 
I wanna comment on Yhwach's justifications real quick.

If you think he's referring to the Mimihagi when he says "you may have foreseen the future but you could not foresee the difference in our strength" you'd have to concede that the Mimihagi can see the future. Last I checked Mimihagi can't see the future, so Yhwach's statement applies to the Soul King. After he says that he's like "ok gonna absorb your arm now" which isn't related to the "difference in our strength" statement and more of him narrating what he's doing.

Also a quick comment on why the thread ended with little to no discussion on TS Ichigo and the durability of WSK.

After having got any part of universal Bleach accepted (I'm gonna be 100% I thought all the staff would echo chamber "no") I just didn't feel like continuing. This in combination with my fatigue from the Bleach speed CRTs made me want it wrapped up sooner than later. Also, personally I'm most confident on the scaling of the Merged Hollow and up Ichigo scaling (Aizen, Yhwach, etc). Plus plus after hearing Matt push stuff like Garganta = outer space I realized that if I want to revisit this topic I should wait for the cosmology blog to be put in words more eloquently than I could put it. I do plan on revisiting the scaling of TS Ichigo (with the plan of separating Mugetsu from Dangai Ichigo, as upon thinking the power that Yhwach equates to TS is Mugetsu and not the holding back Dangai form).

I may compile a better detailed scaling chain too, explaining why character "x" scales. Since it seems that some people are confused on Aizen, and are upset with TS Ichigo's scaling.
 
Tomorrow I will create a CRT on the survey and define who is scheduled, if you already want to go debating here, it would be good, then I took the ready list there
 
Exactly.People need to understand that there is no scaling chain between Bleach high tiers and god tiers.2 of them are literally considered omnipotent beings in-verse,and the other 2 scale to them.So,the high tiers being tier 6 while the god tiers are tier 2-3 is nothing to be surprised about.
 
After seeing the god tier spam for Bleach, I just wanna point out something I noticed. Dante goes from Tier 7 in base to Tier 3/2 with Devil Trigger while Kratos does the same with whatever gear he has like the Gauntlet of Zeus ........ in the same key. Not even an entirely separate key like with Ichigo and Yhwach but the very same key. There is no issue there because the characters/gear have feats on that level in said form and doesn’t scale to anyone else in the verse besides people who also have that level of feats. That’s two of the most popular universal characters on the site and just like Ichigo, they jump a bunch of tiers but I don’t see people going after them lmao. What’s next? The Pokemon god tiers get another attempt at a downgrade?
 
At first I thought the above would be NLF and kinda wank, but then I remembered that some Castlevania characters have basically the exact same thing such as
Invulnerability (Can only be harmed and killed by a specific Holy or Vampiric Weapons, such as the Vampire Killer, The Alucard Sword and Spear, or Shanoa's Dominus)
Click to expand...
so assuming it's consistent, a CRT might want to be made for that
 
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