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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

It seemed like Isshin took damage than Aizen in their brief fight . Also considering Aizen has more reiatsu than both of them shouldn't his attacks be much stronger than theirs?
 
Ssr4vegito said:
Aizen also said his powers were unsurpassed in Souls Society.

So Aizen > Yama?
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Ssr4vegito said:
Yeah that's point. Deicide arc Aizen has made contradictory statements like these , so it's better to properly look at the context behind them
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No lol.

1) Aizen said he was unsurpassed in soul society.

2) Aizen said that Yama is stronger than him.

3) Aizen said that Kisuke was equal to him and Isshin went toe to toe with Aizen and pushed him to his limits.

What does that mean?

It means Aizen was unsurpassed in the soul society and Yamamoto is the only exception, Kisuke wasn't in the soul society for almost 100 years and Isshin wasn't there for 20 years, so Kisuke and Isshin have nothing to do with this statement, the statement isn't "Aizen had no equal throughout all the history of the soul society", him being able to take down all captains easily but making an exception for Yama mean that he was unsurpassed between the captains and Yama is the only exception, Kisuke, and Isshin are not even included in that, for example, Unohana didn't include Kisuke with them and said "the Gotei, Kisuke’s group, the Espada...itc".

So my point is still there, Aizen admitted that Kisuke was on his level.
Also going by feats, Kisuke’s Kido abilities could stop Aizen many times, if it wasn't for the Hogyoku Aizen would have been taken down by a Kido from Kisuke, Aizen even implied that if he didn't have the Hogyoku he would have needed to evade the Hado 91 from Kisuke or he will be in real trouble.
When Aizen lost his godly powers and returned to his soul-reaper state he couldn't stand against a sealing Kido from Kisuke, and that Kido can be negged with Reiatsu because he said that he can do that before he lost his godly form.
Kido attacks are supplied with the user’s energy and Aizen said that a fight between soul reapers is a fight of Reiatsu meaning Reiatsu can negate the abilities like Kido if you have a higher one.
It all means that Kisuke was relative to Aizen at that time.
Also, the original point was if Kisuke is on Shunsui’s level and I even quoted Tokinada when he said that Kisuke has enough power to one-shot him with a single Kido spell and Tokinada was > Shunsui, so can I consider that as conceding on the original point or just changing the topics?
 
Going by reiatsu agument you could bring up the CFYOW stuff of scaling the Nobles being relative to each other (which i'm not a fan of) in reiatsu so by that logic Isshin would be far below Aizen.

Aizen was about neg Kisuke's bakudo 63 (Here) and stop his Hado 91 , the only problem he had was the new Kido which Urahara invented that blocks the reiatsu vents of the enemy Using Aizens own SP to kill him , all this ignoring that he was already at his limit as a soul reaper and the hogyoku reconstructing his souls and by dialogs Aizen started power up until this in the first panel whiich is after he gets bombarded with Urahara's hado 91
 
Ssr4vegito said:
Going by reiatsu agument you could bring up the CFYOW stuff of scaling the Nobles being relative to each other (which i'm not a fan of) in reiatsu so by that logic Isshin would be far below Aizen.
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Nope only Byakuya, Yoruichi, and Tokinada are stated to be relative, nothing to do with Isshin.

Also the scans you linked are Aizen mid evolution, not base Aizen.
 
It's clear from the the dialog in the first panel of the second scan that Aizen started feel the hogyoku powering him up at that moment which is after he gets hit by Urahara's hado , until then Aizen's soul was in the process of evolving .

Most of the nobles even Shunsui are implied to be of same reiatsu level that's why Isshin was normaly assumed to be of the same level and Aizen was known for having the most reiatsu and described as monstrous by Omaeda which was enough to perfectly put multiples captains under hypnosis which Includes Yama as well , along with Yhwach was enough to keep the gates of hell shut, it's only logical to assume Aizen and Yama are comparable in SP , so use reiatsu argument Isshin~Yama ?
 
Ssr4vegito said:
Going by reiatsu agument you could bring up the CFYOW stuff of scaling the Nobles being relative to each other (which i'm not a fan of) in reiatsu so by that logic Isshin would be far below Aizen.
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No Isshin has nothing to do with them, it says Byakuya = Toki = Yoruichi, nobody mentioned Isshin, btw Aizen implied that according to his calculations white should be able to take down any captain in his Shikai form, but Isshin was putting a fight against him and even could cut his arm.
Ssr4vegito said:
Aizen was about neg Kisuke's bakudo 63 (Here) and stop his Hado 91 , the only problem he had was the new Kido which Urahara invented that blocks the reiatsu vents of the enemy Using Aizens own SP to kill him
Click to expand...
No, Aizen said that because of the Hogyoku he is no longer worried about 90s Kido, meaning base Aizen would have been in trouble if Kisuke hit him with the Hado 91.
Ssr4vegito said:
It's clear from the the dialog in the first panel of the second scan that Aizen started feel the hogyoku powering him up at that moment which is after he gets hit by Urahara's hado , until then Aizen's soul was in the process of evolving .
Click to expand...
He said that because of the power of the Hogyoku he is no more worried about 90s Hado, meaning the Hogyoku saved him from at least having considerable damage from Hado 91 that Kisuke fired.
Ssr4vegito said:
Most of the nobles even Shunsui are implied to be of same reiatsu level that's why Isshin was normaly assumed to be of the same level
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Headcanon, prove this.
Ssr4vegito said:
Aizen was known for having the most reiatsu and described as monstrous by Omaeda which was enough to perfectly put multiples captains under hypnosis which Includes Yama as well , along with Yhwach was enough to keep the gates of hell shut, it's only logical to assume Aizen and Yama are comparable in SP , so use reiatsu argument Isshin~Yama ?
Click to expand...
?????
KS was stated to only have that weakness if it's used by someone who is weaker than Aizen, read CFYOW. Meaning you cant apply this argument on KS because it's the only exception that was stated in the story itself.
Also, you probably didn't understand the argument correctly, my Reiatsu argument is "you can neg your opponent abilities if you have a higher level of Reiatsu than him as long as it's a battle between soul reapers."
Can Aizen negate some Reiatsu abilities from Kisuke? Yes.
Can he negate all his Reiatsu abilities? No, he can't.
If he was on a higher level than Kisuke he would negate all of his Reiatsu/energy abilities like Kido or Benihime attacks just like what he said to Soifon, if he cant stop Kisuke’s main abilities it means he is relative or weaker, he said they were equals which support my argument and both of them were relative during the Karakura fight.

We still don't have much info about the gates of hell, using the same argument you will say base Aizen is above Yama and Ichibe because he was closing the gates which you know is a ridiculous claim.
 
We still can't tell the reiatsu difference. I mean while Shinigami Aizen was the peak of Shinigami, even if we assume his reaitsu was 100 out of 100 (let's assume transcendent is 101+), it is possible some of the stronger characters are 99 or 98 which wouldn't be a distance worth mentioning.

We also know physical strength can be a bit unique. Just because Aizen had the highest Reiatsu didn't mean he was the strongest physically in the Gotei. Pretty much the same for other skills like Shunpo and Kido. While these skills do rely on Reiatsu, there is an element of specialization and learning. Some people might master one skill better than you and we know in the angle of Spells, Urahara > Aizen, in the angle of Shunpo, Yoruichi > Aizen.

Before Bankai Kenpachi, Bankai Komamura was hailed as the strongest character physically in Bleach. We have seen Ayon. He should be nowhere near the physical strength he showed if Reaitsu is all it takes considering he was formed from just some Fraccion.

We also see this in Hueco Mundo arc. I don't think Chad is anywhere near Ishida even back then but it was shown, Chad > Ishida in physical strength at least at that time.

Therefore, it is not impossible for Isshin to have more physical strength than Aizen as long as he isn't far below Aizen in Reiatsu. He might just be a few fractions away.
 
@Arc this may be a bit much to ask but would you mind telling me the values people like shinigami Aizen, RG byakuya, and adult Toshiro scale to?
 
Actually well I’m at it, do any of y’all think TS Ichigo should have just straight Class T, higher with Bankai lifting strength since he’s a physical fighter and was stated to be able to easily beat Hikone who has Class T lifting strength for clashing with base Kenpachi?
 
Where is everyone getting this "Ginjo can take Hikone in a fight" from? Especially when the novel says "Ginjo is possibly capable of putting up a good fight" they don't even say he'd maybe win, they say that he may be able to provide an entertaining fight. Also, being a SK candidate alone is not a power level either.
 
Never said he would win. Hikone was made to replace the Soul King and correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Tsukishima say that Ginjo would be able destroy/change the worlds or something like that
 
How old do you think the living realm is ? Do you think Aliens (from other planets) exist in Bleach world and do they have real life scientif stuff like evolution...?
 
Iirc CFYOW states that Reio made it only ~millions of years ago. I’d have to recheck tho. I don’t think Kubo will introduce aliens lel
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Where is everyone getting this "Ginjo can take Hikone in a fight" from? Especially when the novel says "Ginjo is possibly capable of putting up a good fight" they don't even say he'd maybe win, they say that he may be able to provide an entertaining fight. Also, being a SK candidate alone is not a power level either.
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I’d assume he’d put up a fight like unpatched base Kenpachi did against Hikone, hence being able to put up a decent fight. The only reason Narita said Kenpachi would be able to easily beat Hikone was because he hadn’t even released his shikai but on base Hikone seemed to be gaining the upper hand
 
And again, if Ginjo’s speed can have justification that he’d put up a fight against Hikone then there’s no reason why his ap shouldn’t. Along with FB Bankai Ichigo who scales above him.

and please don’t use the flimsy excuse about Ichigo being above Ginjo by saying he might be stronger than his LAA self. There’s only one reason for that as opposed to the 3 reasons he didn’t get stronger that I’ve provided before
 
SilentBob34 said:
I’d assume he’d put up a fight like unpatched base Kenpachi did against Hikone
Click to expand...
Base Ken never gave off an air that he was any danger against Hikone, in fact Hikone was struggling to do any lasting damage, and furthermore when Ikomikidomoe absorbed part of the Soul King, only then did Kenny use Shikai (where he no diffed SK piece absorbed Ikomikidomoe). Kenpachi was lowkey winning the fight in base.

SilentBob34 said:
And again, if Ginjo’s speed can have justification that he’d put up a fight against Hikone then there’s no reason why his ap shouldn’t.
Click to expand...
Lots of CFYOW ratings are a little dated and should prolly be reworked. There's gonna be a CFYOW scaling CRT that drops with the speed CRT when I get free time.

But best I see for Ginjo in Bankai is "possibly Res Hikone's rating", also if Ginjo has better scaling in CFYOW than in LAA then that's that.
 
I remember Tokinada stating that Ginjo has mastered his hollow powers ir something like that along the line so he could be stronger than he was in LAA
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Base Ken never gave off an air that he was any danger against Hikone, in fact Hikone was struggling to do any lasting damage, and furthermore when Ikomikidomoe absorbed part of the Soul King, only then did Kenny use Shikai (where he no diffed SK piece absorbed Ikomikidomoe). Kenpachi was lowkey winning the fight in base.


Lots of CFYOW ratings are a little dated and should prolly be reworked. There's gonna be a CFYOW scaling CRT that drops with the speed CRT when I get free time.

But best I see for Ginjo in Bankai is "possibly Res Hikone's rating", also if Ginjo has better scaling in CFYOW than in LAA then that's that.
Click to expand...
I’d have to find the quotes but wasn’t Hikone consistently landing more hits on Kenpachi? If you can provide where it said Kenpachi had the upper hand and Hikone couldn’t do any lasting damage that’d be super helpful.

and honestly, I still don’t know why you think CFYOW’s scaling is so perfect. It states Tokinada is equal in reiatsu to Byakuya yet says Shikai Yamamoto is far stronger than Tokinada when in the manga even Shikai Kenpachi is stronger than Shikai Yamamoto and Byakuya is stronger than Shikai Kenpachi. Yes some of the ideas and lore is canon but the scaling is so all over the place I don’t know why you’re accepting it as fact
 
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