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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

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What part of spiritual pressure has ever been presented to vaporize shit in some way that's somehow distinct from heat? Reiatsu simply often mimics the elemental affinity of its user is all, just like how Toshiro makes shit colder with his. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to go "his reiatsu has unique properties that mimic heat, and it also has completely different unmentioned properties that do the same thing as heat but in a fundamentally different way". Does it not require far fewer assumptions to say they're one and the same?

And as for the "contradiction", that can easily be chalked up to Bleach being an action manga and not a treatise on thermodynamics. There's a whole ass trope all about how writers don't consider that shit at all when writing stuff.

Also, the heat itself is stated explicitly to be what would instantly vaporize Jugram if he wasn't using Blut Vene, so its incredible destructive power is drawn attention to at about the same time that the threat of Soul Society's destruction is. Jugram also isn't being soul crushed here either, which is worth noting.
 
Yasuda_144 said:
What part of spiritual pressure has ever been presented to vaporize shit in some way that's somehow distinct from heat? Reiatsu simply often mimics the elemental affinity of its user is all, just like how Toshiro makes shit colder with his. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to go "his reiatsu has unique properties that mimic heat, and it also has completely different unmentioned properties that do the same thing as heat but in a fundamentally different way". Does it not require far fewer assumptions to say they're one and the same?
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Reiatsu is an energy, the expulsion of an energy from the body. Just because it can take on elemental properties doesn't mean it doesn't have those other properties (like sheer force). I have not used any mental gymnastics. I'm saying is that Reiatsu in any form will act like Reiatsu, and use it's inherent abilites. That's not a leap in logic, im just telling you the definition of Reiatsu and what it includes.
Yasuda_144 said:
And as for the "contradiction", that can easily be chalked up to Bleach being an action manga and not a treatise on thermodynamics. There's a whole ass trope all about how writers don't consider that shit at all when writing stuff.
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It doesn't matter if you can present a cope for why it exists. The fact that it exists in your interpretation means it can be rejected in favor of mine, which is internal consistent and doesn't run into these abilites. My view is inherently better because it's consistent.

How can you accuse me of mental gymnastics in the same post where you defend logical contradiction against a consistent view?

"15 Million degree ability can actually be > 1.3 Trillion degree ability" is just straightforwardly not a more reasonable conclusion to draw then "since it caps at 15 million degrees, we can look to other facets of the ability to explain its feats."
Yasuda_144 said:
Also, the heat itself is stated explicitly to be what would instantly vaporize Jugram if he wasn't using Blut Vene, so its incredible destructive power is drawn attention to at about the same time that the threat of Soul Society's destruction is. Jugram also isn't being soul crushed here either, which is worth noting.
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Jugram not being soul crushed doesn't mean the Reiatsu isn't using those other properties? That just straightforwardly doesn't follow. All it means is that the heat is able to effect him whilst the other hax can't. Has absolutely no bearing on their involvement in the feat itself. This doesn't prove anything.
 
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Arcker123 said:
Reiatsu is an energy, the expulsion of an energy from the body. Just because it can take on elemental properties doesn't mean it doesn't have those other properties (like sheer force). I have not used any mental gymnastics. I'm saying is that Reiatsu in any form will act like Reiatsu, and use it's inherent abilites. That's not a leap in logic, im just telling you the definition of Reiatsu and what it includes.
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And none of those properties are thermal in nature except for the one guy who has fire powers, those thermal properties also being stated to be 15 million C in temperature.
Arcker123 said:
It doesn't matter if you can present a cope for why it exists. The fact that it exists in your interpretation means it can be rejected in favor of mine, which is internal consistent and doesn't run into these abilites. My view is inherently better because it's consistent.

How can you accuse me of mental gymnastics in the same post where you defend logical contradiction against a consistent view?
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If you have to resort to stuff that's never even implied to be present in the source material to "solve" a contradiction, that's no solution at all.

It's a fictional story man, and a blatantly supernatural one that runs 90% on Rule of Cool. You can't possibly expect it to never do anything that's weird from a real life physics PoV, and there's nothing wrong with admitting a minor contradiction that doesn't impact the story or themes at all exists, that's just the kind of thing that happens.
Arcker123 said:
Jugram not being soul crushed doesn't mean the Reiatsu isn't using those other properties? That just straightforwardly doesn't follow. All it means is that the heat is able to effect him whilst the other hax can't. Has absolutely no bearing on their involvement in the feat itself. This doesn't prove anything.
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It's using those properties, and said properties are demonstrably less potent than the heat, which is thus implied to be the main source of the widespread effects of Zanka no Tachi.
 
Yasuda_144 said:
none of those properties are thermal in nature except for the one guy who has fire powers, those thermal properties also being stated to be 15 million C in temperature.
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Did you not see Ichigo burn up water around him in the anime? Does he have a fire type zanpakuto we're not aware of?

I'm also not under any obligation to prove these things are thermal in nature. Since all that has to be thermal would be his Bankai. I'm just saying there's more than that, and appealing to more things to explain the totality of the feat getting rid of the water (like sheer force).

Heat is obviously is a factor, but since there are more factors than that, we shouldn't use the heat method to calculate that feat, since it would produce a result that would contradict the manga.
Yasuda_144 said:
If you have to resort to stuff that's never even implied to be present in the source material to "solve" a contradiction, that's no solution at all.
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I've given you multiple examples of such. Either you can appeal to the idea sheer energy can produce heat, you can appeal to shit like Ichigo burning away water with sheer reiatsu in the canon anime. Et cetera.

My view being wrong also wouldn't make your view any less incoherent and contradictory. Your view still shouldn't be accepted and is still wrong.
Yasuda_144 said:
It's a fictional story man, and a blatantly supernatural one that runs 90% on Rule of Cool. You can't possibly expect it to never do anything that's weird from a real life physics PoV, and there's nothing wrong with admitting a minor contradiction that doesn't impact the story or themes at all exists, that's just the kind of thing that happens.
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There is no point in debating someone who thinks their arguments being logically consistent just doesn't matter because of "rule of cool." I have shown you wrong because you have contradicted the manga.

The Manga > Any calc. Any calc that contradicts the Mangas clear statements will just be disregarded. This is my main point. Since my interpretation cannot be shown false like this, it's inherently better than yours since it can be true, where your can't be.

Also it does impact the story. The ability gets all of its hype from being sun level, and Yamamoto mentions how it's evolved to that level through millenia of training. If the ability was somehow millions of times hotter than that, than whole hype behind it makes no sense.

Even if my interpretation is inadequate, it wouldn't make yours any less absurd or problematic. Which is all that needs to be shown.
Yasuda_144 said:
It's using those properties, and said properties are demonstrably less potent than the heat, which is thus implied to be the main source of the widespread effects of Zanka no Tachi.
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Which again, is irrelevant to the idea there are other sources. Which I've shown is the only way any of this can make any sort of coherent sense.
 
I'll put this very simply.

Yamamoto's bankai cannot be hotter than its stated 15 million degrees. Any attempt to get it higher is an outlier that will be disregarded.

I've posited an explanation that could explain how the feat happened (other Reiatsu facets, which doesn't require getting it higher than 15 mil), and thus, I'm trying to avoid an outlier. Even if that turns out to be wrong or unproven, it is still true that we cannot get Yamamoto's Bankai above 15 million.

If the feat gets above 15 million through calls, the feat is simply an outlier, because it contradicts the clear statements. This is why I objected to using the Azashiro method to scale Yama's bankai.
 
I very much agree with the point of Manga > Calcs, and I guess if that means the Zanka no Tachi calc has to go then fine, but that in turn is what makes the Azashiro calc problematic in the first place. There's technically no outright statement that ZnT is superior to Itto Kaso, but the simple fact that it's the Bankai of the strongest Gotei 13 Captain, who's at that time never come close to being surpassed by any other Shinigami, that's specifically being hyped as unfathomable for its heat, would imply that no one can surpass it in that regard except the Transcendent beings.

Admittedly, that's built entirely on "should be", but for an ability that's held on such a pedestal by the narrative I don't think it's unreasonable to be suspicious about its main feature being utterly trivialized by something else in its own user' toolkit.
 
I mean the point of this whole argument is there doesn't seem to be a case for ZnT being above Itto Kaso that isn't just intuition.

So I guess the debate ends there.
 
Yeah, I guess it's weird and counterintuitive but if there's nothing that says otherwise, then what can you do?

That being said, I'm almost surprised there's never been any databook statement that would reinforce ZnT as the literal hottest thing in the verse. There's plenty of instances of other stuff that's superlative being stated as such (admittedly, sometimes it's clear hyperbole like base Aizen being stated as unrivaled when he himself admits Yama's stronger than him)
 
Yasuda_144 said:
Yeah, I guess it's weird and counterintuitive but if there's nothing that says otherwise, then what can you do?
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I guess an argument you could make is that:

All Kido rely on spiritual pressure (stronger you are = stronger your kido) -> Bankai is your spiritual pressure at its max.

Therefore Yamamoto's Bankai is inherently greater than his Kido since his Bankai is his peak spiritual power and his kido are mere fractions of that. This might have some holes I could pick apart in a debate but I think it's generally fine to justify the intuition.

Itto Kaso > ZnT will always be a goon argument.
 
Arcker123 said:
I guess an argument you could make is that:

All Kido rely on spiritual pressure (stronger you are = stronger your kido) -> Bankai is your spiritual pressure at its max.

Therefore Yamamoto's Bankai is inherently greater than his Kido since his Bankai is his peak spiritual power and his kido are mere fractions of that. This might have some holes I could pick apart in a debate but I think it's generally fine to justify the intuition.

Itto Kaso > ZnT will always be a goon argument.
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Ichigo vaporising oetsu sea has a similar calc to azashiro ittokasu now I think of it, he is shown to have reiatsu that's passively hot when riled up and hot enough to vaporise a sea in seconds.
Yama 15m degrees bankai cap doesn't mean he can't survive higher temperatures since that's just a side effect of the bankai, ittokasu being hot enough to even burn spacetime could be one of the reasons it's forbidden and yama tanked that

Kenpachi, ichigo, azashiro having that level of heat resistance doesn't look off to me but thats just me.
 
Shouldn’t we still considered Barragan Espada 1? Barragan was the number uno until Aizen came along and decided to give him second place to humiliate him.

Barragan should still be considered número uno.

Didn’t Barragan said as much on that flashback where he was on the table narrating?
 
I mean, baraggan is the strongest espada overall, idrc about the rankings, since it's most likely just based on the amount of reiatsu, not overall combat prowess

Respira GG
 
Deceived3596 said:
How would you account for the fact that Ceros pretty blatantly vaporize objects, which wouldn't happen if the object was atomized?
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It's anime, exact same thing can be said for aizen's EE, which goes beyond atomization.
But is still shown to have vaporization taking place in some instances.

I don't expect a mangaka to know physics.

Exact same thing can be mentioned for the Quincy matter manipulation, when they're absorbing reishi from their surroundings.
 
FKT versions, the Visoreds take it. Sui Feng is probably bottom 3 of all the captains. Pushing Res Hallibel is more impressive than doing absolutely **** all to Barragan until a Visored had to step in to allow her to get her lick in, and even her Bankai is absolutely terrible, unable to get the job done.
 
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