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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

GOATMAN1232000 said:
Holy shit. He so based for glazing Kenny What the hell was Narita smoking?

Though, I have a hard time believing that 1 Itto Kaso is 1.3 trillion C. Fake Yhwach was not able to even touch Yama's 15 billion C and without Blut would have been burnt alive. And Fake Yhwach manhandled Kenpachi. Who survived a collective total of 400 trillion C according to the calc.

The logic ain't logicing.
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1. Narita solely cares about wanking Kenpachi as hard as possible in the novels

2. The only thing that can be said to make it make sense is that Kenpachi just unironically has far better heat resistance feats than even Yamamoto ( stupid af )
 
Uh, I'm 99.999% sure this isn't how we scale temperature. You're literally just getting 1 trillion C from the fact that it has megaton level AP, in which case Yama's heat would surpass a goddamn Kugelblitz given he passively evaporates an entire planet's water. On top of that, the heat radiation of an object is roughly proportional to its temperature raised to the fourth power. In other words, ten times the temperature in Kelvin means heat radiated in Watts is 10,000 times greater.

You'd also be saying Yamamoto is several orders of magnitude more powerful with some random ass forbidden Kido then with his own Bankai.
 
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Yasuda_144 said:
Uh, I'm 99.999% sure this isn't how we scale temperature. You're literally just getting 1 trillion C from the fact that it has megaton level AP, in which case Yama's heat would surpass a goddamn Kugelblitz given he passively evaporates an entire planet's water. On top of that, the heat radiation of an object is roughly proportional to its temperature raised to the fourth power. In other words, ten times the temperature in Kelvin means heat radiated in Watts is 10,000 times greater.

You'd also be saying Yamamoto is several orders of magnitude more powerful with some random ass forbidden Kido then with his own Bankai.
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I don't see how anything here shows that the math is wrong. I simply used a formula that allows you to derive heat from the actual energy output. I don't even see how the result is that ludicrous given how the suns core (15 Million degrees) is only 8-A in terms of sheer AP.

Yamamoto is still capped at 15 million by statements. Itto Kaso vaporizes him. You can just call the water feat due to his sheer ap/reiatsu (His bankai is just his reiatsu given fire properties) if you need a rationale to make that consistent.

I don't see how your point about watts is at all relevant to anything.

Do you have an argument beyond just incredulity as to why Itto Kaso can't be above Yama's bankai in terms of heat? Not AP.
 
Heating a human being to 15 million C and reaching equilibrium is 8-A. A human being that's 15 million C and whose temperature doesn't immediately drop exponentially would output like 1 Teraton per second in an environment that isn't itself as hot as the sun's core. If the Itto Kaso lasted for like a microsecond then the feat is valid, but also immensely less impressive than withstanding such heat for extended periods of time (Real life humans can accomplish feats like running on hot coals barefoot by making sure their feet never touch the coal long enough to cause burns).
 
Arcker123 said:
Yamamoto is still capped at 15 million by statements. Itto Kaso vaporizes him.
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Since itto kaso spawned from his charred arm and the huge aoe it created, it can be argued that Yama tanked his own itto kaso.

And as i said, Yama's bankai heat isn't what is super scarry about it, it's the EE. So i don't see much problem with itto having superior heat specifically.
 
Arcker123 said:
Do you have an argument beyond just incredulity as to why Itto Kaso can't be above Yama's bankai in terms of heat? Not AP.
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Said heat is itself derived from an AP calc, and you could get much, much higher values for Yamamoto himself using the exact same method (it being his reiatsu doesn't really change much since it still manifests as thermal energy and it still emanates from his body).
 
Yasuda_144 said:
Said heat is itself derived from an AP calc, and you could get much, much higher values for Yamamoto himself using the exact same method (it being his reiatsu doesn't really change much since it still manifests as thermal energy and it still emanates from his body).
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His Reiatsu other properties besides heat (in virtue of being Reiatsu). It being manifested as heat doesn't those other properties can't explain the feat. I have no reason to attribute the feat solely to heat like I can for Itto Kaso.

My interpretation is the only one presented that doesn't form an immediate contradiction with the narrative (getting it above 15 million degrees), since I'm not using solely heat to explain it.
 
I doubt that a phenomenon that was in every way depicted as a result of heat and never implied to be otherwise is somehow related to something completely different. And like I said, a human being maintaining a constant surface temperature of 15 million C would absolutely cause global effects at that scale (it wouldn't completely vaporize everything quite as quickly as presented, but it's a small enough difference to be chalked up to just being artistic license).
 
Yeah tbh Yama's heat is still more impressive because not only is it 15 million degrees, it's 15 million degrees at a constant and longer rate and also has EE
 
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Yasuda_144 said:
I doubt that a phenomenon that was in every way depicted as a result of heat and never implied to be otherwise is somehow related to something completely different. And like I said, a human being maintaining a constant surface temperature of 15 million C would absolutely cause global effects at that scale (it wouldn't completely vaporize everything quite as quickly as presented, but it's a small enough difference to be chalked up to just being artistic license).
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Your doubt means nothing. It's still the only logically consistent way to interpret the feat, which was my main argument.

I have no contention with the idea of a man covered in the sun sitting on the planets surface would be catastrophic. That's just trivial. I contend the idea of using the heat method for the vaporizing the water since it forms contradiction with its stated heat. I simply presented an interpretation for the feat that doesn't actually present a contradiciton. Also, if the real sun couldn't do that, why is it unreasonable to have an explanation that goes beyond heat to explain the difference?

I also doubt your intuition of it being presented purely heat. Why even include the fact it's spiritual pressure at all if they have no functional relation to normal spiritual pressure and is just natural heat? There would be no reason for that to be in the manga if that was the intent.
 
zaraki-kenpachi-eyepatch.gif
 
What part of spiritual pressure has ever been presented to vaporize shit in some way that's somehow distinct from heat? Reiatsu simply often mimics the elemental affinity of its user is all, just like how Toshiro makes shit colder with his. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to go "his reiatsu has unique properties that mimic heat, and it also has completely different unmentioned properties that do the same thing as heat but in a fundamentally different way". Does it not require far fewer assumptions to say they're one and the same?

And as for the "contradiction", that can easily be chalked up to Bleach being an action manga and not a treatise on thermodynamics. There's a whole ass trope all about how writers don't consider that shit at all when writing stuff.

Also, the heat itself is stated explicitly to be what would instantly vaporize Jugram if he wasn't using Blut Vene, so its incredible destructive power is drawn attention to at about the same time that the threat of Soul Society's destruction is. Jugram also isn't being soul crushed here either, which is worth noting.
 
Yasuda_144 said:
What part of spiritual pressure has ever been presented to vaporize shit in some way that's somehow distinct from heat? Reiatsu simply often mimics the elemental affinity of its user is all, just like how Toshiro makes shit colder with his. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to go "his reiatsu has unique properties that mimic heat, and it also has completely different unmentioned properties that do the same thing as heat but in a fundamentally different way". Does it not require far fewer assumptions to say they're one and the same?
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Reiatsu is an energy, the expulsion of an energy from the body. Just because it can take on elemental properties doesn't mean it doesn't have those other properties (like sheer force). I have not used any mental gymnastics. I'm saying is that Reiatsu in any form will act like Reiatsu, and use it's inherent abilites. That's not a leap in logic, im just telling you the definition of Reiatsu and what it includes.
Yasuda_144 said:
And as for the "contradiction", that can easily be chalked up to Bleach being an action manga and not a treatise on thermodynamics. There's a whole ass trope all about how writers don't consider that shit at all when writing stuff.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter if you can present a cope for why it exists. The fact that it exists in your interpretation means it can be rejected in favor of mine, which is internal consistent and doesn't run into these abilites. My view is inherently better because it's consistent.

How can you accuse me of mental gymnastics in the same post where you defend logical contradiction against a consistent view?

"15 Million degree ability can actually be > 1.3 Trillion degree ability" is just straightforwardly not a more reasonable conclusion to draw then "since it caps at 15 million degrees, we can look to other facets of the ability to explain its feats."
Yasuda_144 said:
Also, the heat itself is stated explicitly to be what would instantly vaporize Jugram if he wasn't using Blut Vene, so its incredible destructive power is drawn attention to at about the same time that the threat of Soul Society's destruction is. Jugram also isn't being soul crushed here either, which is worth noting.
Click to expand...
Jugram not being soul crushed doesn't mean the Reiatsu isn't using those other properties? That just straightforwardly doesn't follow. All it means is that the heat is able to effect him whilst the other hax can't. Has absolutely no bearing on their involvement in the feat itself. This doesn't prove anything.
 
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Arcker123 said:
Reiatsu is an energy, the expulsion of an energy from the body. Just because it can take on elemental properties doesn't mean it doesn't have those other properties (like sheer force). I have not used any mental gymnastics. I'm saying is that Reiatsu in any form will act like Reiatsu, and use it's inherent abilites. That's not a leap in logic, im just telling you the definition of Reiatsu and what it includes.
Click to expand...
And none of those properties are thermal in nature except for the one guy who has fire powers, those thermal properties also being stated to be 15 million C in temperature.
Arcker123 said:
It doesn't matter if you can present a cope for why it exists. The fact that it exists in your interpretation means it can be rejected in favor of mine, which is internal consistent and doesn't run into these abilites. My view is inherently better because it's consistent.

How can you accuse me of mental gymnastics in the same post where you defend logical contradiction against a consistent view?
Click to expand...
If you have to resort to stuff that's never even implied to be present in the source material to "solve" a contradiction, that's no solution at all.

It's a fictional story man, and a blatantly supernatural one that runs 90% on Rule of Cool. You can't possibly expect it to never do anything that's weird from a real life physics PoV, and there's nothing wrong with admitting a minor contradiction that doesn't impact the story or themes at all exists, that's just the kind of thing that happens.
Arcker123 said:
Jugram not being soul crushed doesn't mean the Reiatsu isn't using those other properties? That just straightforwardly doesn't follow. All it means is that the heat is able to effect him whilst the other hax can't. Has absolutely no bearing on their involvement in the feat itself. This doesn't prove anything.
Click to expand...
It's using those properties, and said properties are demonstrably less potent than the heat, which is thus implied to be the main source of the widespread effects of Zanka no Tachi.
 
Yasuda_144 said:
none of those properties are thermal in nature except for the one guy who has fire powers, those thermal properties also being stated to be 15 million C in temperature.
Click to expand...
Did you not see Ichigo burn up water around him in the anime? Does he have a fire type zanpakuto we're not aware of?

I'm also not under any obligation to prove these things are thermal in nature. Since all that has to be thermal would be his Bankai. I'm just saying there's more than that, and appealing to more things to explain the totality of the feat getting rid of the water (like sheer force).

Heat is obviously is a factor, but since there are more factors than that, we shouldn't use the heat method to calculate that feat, since it would produce a result that would contradict the manga.
Yasuda_144 said:
If you have to resort to stuff that's never even implied to be present in the source material to "solve" a contradiction, that's no solution at all.
Click to expand...
I've given you multiple examples of such. Either you can appeal to the idea sheer energy can produce heat, you can appeal to shit like Ichigo burning away water with sheer reiatsu in the canon anime. Et cetera.

My view being wrong also wouldn't make your view any less incoherent and contradictory. Your view still shouldn't be accepted and is still wrong.
Yasuda_144 said:
It's a fictional story man, and a blatantly supernatural one that runs 90% on Rule of Cool. You can't possibly expect it to never do anything that's weird from a real life physics PoV, and there's nothing wrong with admitting a minor contradiction that doesn't impact the story or themes at all exists, that's just the kind of thing that happens.
Click to expand...
There is no point in debating someone who thinks their arguments being logically consistent just doesn't matter because of "rule of cool." I have shown you wrong because you have contradicted the manga.

The Manga > Any calc. Any calc that contradicts the Mangas clear statements will just be disregarded. This is my main point. Since my interpretation cannot be shown false like this, it's inherently better than yours since it can be true, where your can't be.

Also it does impact the story. The ability gets all of its hype from being sun level, and Yamamoto mentions how it's evolved to that level through millenia of training. If the ability was somehow millions of times hotter than that, than whole hype behind it makes no sense.

Even if my interpretation is inadequate, it wouldn't make yours any less absurd or problematic. Which is all that needs to be shown.
Yasuda_144 said:
It's using those properties, and said properties are demonstrably less potent than the heat, which is thus implied to be the main source of the widespread effects of Zanka no Tachi.
Click to expand...
Which again, is irrelevant to the idea there are other sources. Which I've shown is the only way any of this can make any sort of coherent sense.
 
I'll put this very simply.

Yamamoto's bankai cannot be hotter than its stated 15 million degrees. Any attempt to get it higher is an outlier that will be disregarded.

I've posited an explanation that could explain how the feat happened (other Reiatsu facets, which doesn't require getting it higher than 15 mil), and thus, I'm trying to avoid an outlier. Even if that turns out to be wrong or unproven, it is still true that we cannot get Yamamoto's Bankai above 15 million.

If the feat gets above 15 million through calls, the feat is simply an outlier, because it contradicts the clear statements. This is why I objected to using the Azashiro method to scale Yama's bankai.
 
I very much agree with the point of Manga > Calcs, and I guess if that means the Zanka no Tachi calc has to go then fine, but that in turn is what makes the Azashiro calc problematic in the first place. There's technically no outright statement that ZnT is superior to Itto Kaso, but the simple fact that it's the Bankai of the strongest Gotei 13 Captain, who's at that time never come close to being surpassed by any other Shinigami, that's specifically being hyped as unfathomable for its heat, would imply that no one can surpass it in that regard except the Transcendent beings.

Admittedly, that's built entirely on "should be", but for an ability that's held on such a pedestal by the narrative I don't think it's unreasonable to be suspicious about its main feature being utterly trivialized by something else in its own user' toolkit.
 
I mean the point of this whole argument is there doesn't seem to be a case for ZnT being above Itto Kaso that isn't just intuition.

So I guess the debate ends there.
 
Yeah, I guess it's weird and counterintuitive but if there's nothing that says otherwise, then what can you do?

That being said, I'm almost surprised there's never been any databook statement that would reinforce ZnT as the literal hottest thing in the verse. There's plenty of instances of other stuff that's superlative being stated as such (admittedly, sometimes it's clear hyperbole like base Aizen being stated as unrivaled when he himself admits Yama's stronger than him)
 
Yasuda_144 said:
Yeah, I guess it's weird and counterintuitive but if there's nothing that says otherwise, then what can you do?
Click to expand...
I guess an argument you could make is that:

All Kido rely on spiritual pressure (stronger you are = stronger your kido) -> Bankai is your spiritual pressure at its max.

Therefore Yamamoto's Bankai is inherently greater than his Kido since his Bankai is his peak spiritual power and his kido are mere fractions of that. This might have some holes I could pick apart in a debate but I think it's generally fine to justify the intuition.

Itto Kaso > ZnT will always be a goon argument.
 
Arcker123 said:
I guess an argument you could make is that:

All Kido rely on spiritual pressure (stronger you are = stronger your kido) -> Bankai is your spiritual pressure at its max.

Therefore Yamamoto's Bankai is inherently greater than his Kido since his Bankai is his peak spiritual power and his kido are mere fractions of that. This might have some holes I could pick apart in a debate but I think it's generally fine to justify the intuition.

Itto Kaso > ZnT will always be a goon argument.
Click to expand...
Ichigo vaporising oetsu sea has a similar calc to azashiro ittokasu now I think of it, he is shown to have reiatsu that's passively hot when riled up and hot enough to vaporise a sea in seconds.
Yama 15m degrees bankai cap doesn't mean he can't survive higher temperatures since that's just a side effect of the bankai, ittokasu being hot enough to even burn spacetime could be one of the reasons it's forbidden and yama tanked that

Kenpachi, ichigo, azashiro having that level of heat resistance doesn't look off to me but thats just me.
 
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