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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Arcker123 said:
This just doesn't matter when considering the crimes Yhwach commits.

Every genocidal asshole does it self righteous reasons, it doesn't make them better than people who have those same reasons, but are less pretentious about it like Seireitei. Yhwachs motivations aren't convincing reasons as to why he's somehow a lesser evil.
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Which genocide are you talking about? As far as I remember, the only thing he did that can be considered genocide and not just mass murder is the invasion of Soul Society. If it's the invasion of Soul Society, it is still less evil than all the other genocides the Soul Society committed, as it has the explanation of both being a war and revenge, unlike most of the Soul Society genocides, which are unjustifiable. Although the Quincy genocide by the Soul Society has a "justification" it's a very flimsy one. So, in that case, Yhwach would still be the lesser EVIL.


Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the invasion of Soul Society is right; I'm just pointing out that it at least has an explanation, which to some might be plausible. This is in contrast to the Soul Society's decisions like "let's kill all Mod Souls just because," "let's kill Fullbringers so we can get the Reio fragments," "instead of exploring 100 other options, let's just kill the Quincy because they don't want to stop killing their natural enemies, which are poisonous to them," and "let's not even agree to the Soken's proposal since it's better to let the Quincy die." Even in filler episodes, they commit genocides for no reason.
 
Bastolan27 said:
Which genocide are you talking about? As far as I remember, the only thing he did that can be considered genocide and not just mass murder is the invasion of Soul Society. If it's the invasion of Soul Society, it is still less evil than all the other genocides the Soul Society committed, as it has the explanation of both being a war and revenge, unlike most of the Soul Society genocides, which are unjustifiable. Although the Quincy genocide by the Soul Society has a "justification" it's a very flimsy one. So, in that case, Yhwach would still be the lesser EVIL.


Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the invasion of Soul Society is right; I'm just pointing out that it at least has an explanation, which to some might be plausible. This is in contrast to the Soul Society's decisions like "let's kill all Mod Souls just because," "let's kill Fullbringers so we can get the Reio fragments," "instead of exploring 100 other options, let's just kill the Quincy because they don't want to stop killing their natural enemies, which are poisonous to them," and "let's not even agree to the Soken's proposal since it's better to let the Quincy die." Even in filler episodes, they commit genocides for no reason.
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The Auschwalen
 
Arcker123 said:
The Auschwalen
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Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

Yhwach didn't kill the Quincy just because, and he didn't do it with the goal of exterminating them; he did it to regain his power. Also, he didn't kill them because they are Quincy, but because it was the way to regain his power. So it fails to meet the criteria of the definition.
 
Aernasilver said:
I have in fact read half of the Bleach series, and Zaraki is per definition far too amoral and bloodthirsty to qualify as a genuinely good character with very high degrees of empathy, conscience, compassion, and moral conduct. Even an average human does not qualify as good, just neutral, and Zaraki's past deeds of thrill-killing slaughter makes him considerably worse than an average human.
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Zaraki's "past deeds of thrill killing" were when he was a literal child being hunted down by ghost cops.
 
Bastolan27 said:
Unfortunately, that doesn't fall under genocide according to Oxford; only mass murder.

Yhwach didn't kill the Quincy just because, and he didn't do it with the goal of exterminating them; he did it to regain his power. Also, he didn't kill them because they are Quincy, but because it was the way to regain his power. So it fails to meet the criteria of the definition.
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He literally did it because they were Quincy, since the Quincy were the ones with his power in them.
 
The auschwalen was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered. If that isn't a genocide then who tf knows dude.

Edit: This argument is so ******* pedantic. Anyone who'd here the description of the auschwalen would call it genocide.
 
We go back to this
Bastolan27 said:
It was one of my points, not my whole argument. but yeah Yhwach's self-righteousness makes him less evil than the Soul Society. Think of it like a soldier believing they are serving a righteous cause and committing atrocities, even if the cause is not truly righteous, being considered less evil than a soldier who knows they're doing something wrong but keeps doing it anyway. Morality and evilness can be measured in various ways, two of which are the action itself and the intent/reason behind it. Yhwach genuinely believed that his goal was the best for humanity. He initially pursued this goal for both self-preservation and empathy/compassion for the living, which he acquired through absorbing the memories of countless people who feared death.
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The action is equally evil, but the intent is not as malicious as killing them out of hatred or something similar.
 
Arcker123 said:
The auschwalen was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered. If that isn't a genocide then who tf knows dude.
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SlendVeny said:
He literally did it because they were Quincy, since the Quincy were the ones with his power in them.
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But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.
Arcker123 said:
The auschwalen was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered. If that isn't a genocide then who tf knows dude.
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SlendVeny said:
"The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular race or nation."
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the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
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was an ethnic cleansing in which Quincy who weren't pure enough were systematically murdered.
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The intent was not to kill them just because they were 'impure' but because 'pure' Quincy are a rarity that could not be disposed of, so they were the alternative. (It was not a hate crime.)

His motivation was not to destroy the Quincy; therefore, it's not genocide.
 
Bastolan27 said:
But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.






The intent was not to kill them just because they were 'impure' but because 'pure' Quincy are a rarity that could not be disposed of, so they were the alternative. (It was not a hate crime.)

His motivation was not to destroy the Quincy; therefore, it's not genocide.
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Yhwach ideals towards the Quincy was based on hitlers ideology that’s one of the reason for the Germanic theme the wandereich have. It pretty safe too bet that it was genocide
 
Bastolan27 said:
But it was not a hate crime, and he didn't kill them because he wanted to exterminate a group of people; he did it to regain his power.






The intent was not to kill them just because they were 'impure' but because 'pure' Quincy are a rarity that could not be disposed of, so they were the alternative. (It was not a hate crime.)

His motivation was not to destroy the Quincy; therefore, it's not genocide.
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Dude do you not think racial purity is a motive that qualifies under hate crime?

Nobody cares about the idea of destroying a race entirely when talking about genocide. Yhwach is trying to destroy a very specific type of Quincy, which would still be a genocide when understood by everyone. You can commit genocide on a sect of a larger race for example without intending to destroy the entire larger race. You're just misunderstanding the definition.
 
Westcoast5005 said:
Yhwach ideals towards the Quincy was based on hitlers ideology that’s one of the reason for the Germanic theme the wandereich have. It pretty safe too bet that it was genocide
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That's never confirmed. The manga implies they fell into eugenics due to the rarity of pure Quincy post-genocide. The only ideology you can attribute to Yhwach is the 'unnecessary Quincy' one, which is not based on eugenics but on usefulness for himself.
 
Arcker123 said:
Dude do you not think racial purity is a motive that qualifies under hate crime?
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Yes
Arcker123 said:
Nobody cares about the idea of destroying a race entirely when talking about genocide. Yhwach is trying to destroy a very specific type of Quincy, which would still be a genocide when understood by everyone. You can commit genocide on a sect of a larger race for example without intending to destroy the entire larger race. You're just misunderstanding the definition.
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No, the distinction is on intent, as I've said multiple times. He didn't want to destroy a very specific type of Quincy; he wanted to regain his power. Since the specific group of Quincy was less useful to him, due to the whole power dilution thing (which is showcased in Blut), it shows that it was not due to 'hate.' This is further emphasized when he used Auswählen on all of Quincy. It implies he never did it because of racial superiority but due to a utilitarian approach, which in this case would not be classified as a hate crime.

And since his goal was not "destroying that nation or group" but gaining power through Quincy, which he deemed as less useful, and it has nothing to do with ethics, then it would not be genocide.
 
Bastolan27 said:
Yes

No, the distinction is on intent, as I've said multiple times. He didn't want to destroy a very specific type of Quincy; he wanted to regain his power. Since the specific group of Quincy was less useful to him, due to the whole power dilution thing (which is showcased in Blut), it shows that it was not due to 'hate.' This is further emphasized when he used Auswählen on all of Quincy. It implies he never did it because of racial superiority but due to a utilitarian approach, which in this case would not be classified as a hate crime.

And since his goal was not "destroying that nation or group" but gaining power through Quincy, which he deemed as less useful, and it has nothing to do with ethics, then it would not be genocide.
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That's absurd and I struggle to see how you can honestly say that.

Lol this is just prevarication. He's directly and knowingly taking acts to exterminate a group of people. Why he intends to destroy them isn't a defeater for him intending to destroy them. He does a technique to specifically kill all members of x group of the Quincy based on their heritage. That's a genocide, that wouldn't be changed by why specifically he did that.

To argue this is to say Yhwach somehow didn't know his auschwalen targeting all the impures would kill them.
 
SlendVeny said:
He wanted to exterminate them to regain his power. This does not suddenly mean he didn't want to exterminate them
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"Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group."

There's a reason the nuclear attack on Japan is not considered genocide, and it's the same reason here. Killing the victims was not the main goal. The victims were killed as a 'byproduct' to achieve the goal. If the international community doesn't consider the nuclear attacks genocide, then it would also not consider Auswählen a genocide.
 
Bastolan27 said:
"Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group."

There's a reason the nuclear attack on Japan is not considered genocide, and it's the same reason here. Killing the victims was not the main goal. The victims were killed as a 'byproduct' to achieve the goal. If the international community doesn't consider the nuclear attacks genocide, then it would also not consider Auswählen a genocide.
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So he just took the power back and didn't know it would kill them? That's the only way he could do it. If he chose to do it despite knowing they would die, he intended to kill them.
 
Also, the difference between this and the nukes is that one is two cities out of a country, and the other is two planets out of two planets.
 
Peak anime brain rot going on rn.

@Bastolan27 when Yhwach used a lethal weapons on the minorities, did he just not understand that it would kill them?
Bastolan27 said:
There's a reason the nuclear attack on Japan is not considered genocide, and it's the same reason here. Killing the victims was not the main goal. The victims were killed as a 'byproduct' to achieve the goal. If the international community doesn't consider the nuclear attacks genocide, then it would also not consider Auswählen a genocide.
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This isn't at all analagous. It's a technique that specifically targets a group of people for death rather than just a nuke with no racial motive. Yhwach intends to kill everyone he killed for specific reasons

The international community would consider magic anime attack aimed to destroy a specific minority group for x reason genocide.

Edit: You can intend to kill a group for reasons beyond killing that group simpliciter.
 
I swear these mfs would say Frieza didn't legally commit genocide on the Namekians because he just wanted to be immortal.
 
SlendVeny said:
So he just took the power back and didn't know it would kill them? That's the only way he could do it. If he chose to do it despite knowing they would die, he intended to kill them.
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Did the US not know that two cities where going to die? Knowledge of the act does not make it genocide
SlendVeny said:
Also, the difference between this and the nukes is that one is two cities out of a country, and the other is two planets out of two planets.
Click to expand...
Arcker123 said:
This isn't at all analagous. It's a technique that specifically targets a group of people for death rather than just a nuke with no racial motive. Yhwach intends to kill everyone he killed for specific reasons

The international community would consider magic anime attack aimed to destroy a specific minority group for x reason genocide.
Click to expand...
The nukes explicitly targeted the extinction of two cities of civilians of a specific ethnicity. Since it's not considered genocide, it emphasizes that the intent behind the targeting is what matters to the definition.
Arcker123 said:
Yhwach intends to kill everyone he killed for specific reasons
Click to expand...
The reasons are the degree of usefulness to him. The whole idea isn't intricately tied to ethnicity. If this were a scenario like Dragon Ball where 'impure' Quincy were stronger (as with Uryu), he would not target them after knowing that because they would be more useful for him. It's also the same reason why he used Auswählen on all non-Schutzstaffel—usefulness to him. If anything, you could argue this from a "law of the jungle" mentality more than an ethnic prosecution.
SlendVeny said:
I swear these mfs would say Frieza didn't legally commit genocide on the Namekians because he just wanted to be immortal.
Click to expand...
False equivalence; Frieza didn't have to murder whole villages of Namekians to accomplish his goal. He did it with the explicit intent of killing them just because.

Anyway, I have things to do tomorrow, so I'll go to sleep. If you all want to keep arguing against me, I'll respond tomorrow. (I know people who view the whole discussion later might make me out to be Raven 2.0, but there's nothing that can be done about that.)

Disclaimer for those who might try to report me for some reason: I don't support or agree with genocide. I'm not validating any of the ideologies discussed in this conversation. If I'm getting banned for talking about the issue in the first place (which I don't believe would be justified since I'm not discussing contemporary politics nor anything inappropriate per se—I literally learned about genocides in elementary school), then everyone who talked with me about it should also get banned.

Edit: Since arguing about Yhwach's "genocide" does not change the fact that the Soul Society has committed more genocides and more atrocious genocides, I consider the original discussion won regarding Yhwach being less evil (while still being evil af) than the Soul Society.
 
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Bastolan27 said:
Did the US not know that two cities where going to die? Knowledge of the act does not make it genocide
Click to expand...
Cities are not the same as races

Bastolan27 said:
False equivalence; Frieza didn't have to murder whole villages of Namekians to accomplish his goal. He did it with the explicit intent of killing them just because.
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"Yeah, but he didn't do it because of their race, he just did it because they annoyed him."

Unironically though, Ywach didn't have to kill the Quincies. He still did, and guess how it ended? He failed. Miserably. And genocide can't be shrugged off with "but I had to tho uwu."
 
Bastolan27 said:
The reasons are the degree of usefulness to him. The whole idea isn't intricately tied to ethnicity. If this were a scenario like Dragon Ball where 'impure' Quincy were stronger (as with Uryu), he would not target them after knowing that because they would be more useful for him. It's also the same reason why he used Auswählen on all non-Schutzstaffel—usefulness to him. If anything, you could argue this from a "law of the jungle" mentality more than an ethnic prosecution.
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You're not addressing my argument.

The reason why he targets them is irrelevant to the fact that he targeted them in a systematic slaughter. He specifically targeted and killed a minority group and destroyed them, why he did that doesn't matter to My argument. You're not addressing the basic facts of the situation and keep appealing to intent which I keep explaining is irrelevant because the definition only focuses on specific acts.

He doesn't target Uryu because he literally can't, not because of this baseless headcanon. He targets racial minorities for slaughter.
Bastolan27 said:
Did the US not know that two cities where going to die? Knowledge of the act does not make it genocide
Click to expand...
Bastolan27 said:
The nukes explicitly targeted the extinction of two cities of civilians of a specific ethnicity. Since it's not considered genocide, it emphasizes that the intent behind the targeting is what matters to the definition.
Click to expand...
This argument is incredibly dishonest. There's no honest comparison to be drawn here.

There's no group of people being targeted for elimination specifically. The goal of the bombs was to get a war to end, not eradicate a minority group. You're just misrepresenting history.

The argument is about the specific targeting and destruction of a minority group, which happens in the auschwalen case, not here.
 
Arcker123 said:
The Holodomor wasn't a genocide because Stalin just wanted to enact the five year plan, not necessarily kill all Ukrainians.
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There's an argument I've heard from some people that the Holodomor was mostly a mismanagement of resources by some higher-ups, kind of a general ****-up on their part.
 
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