Bakugan CRT

[The_Boy_Who_Holds_The_Key]

Hello,

I'm new to the community and still learning the ropes. I should probably start with something small and simple, so... How about questioning the scaling of the entire verse?
Don't worry, I did my homework before starting this thread. I hope I have enough argumentation to convince you.
Currently, almost the entire verse is scaled as 2-C, which comes more or less directly from a single feat of Silent Naga fusing together two universes.
The trouble here is that he didn't do such a thing.
First, GimmyJibbsJr's assertion that planets shown in the series actually inhabit separate universes doesn't survive the confrontation with Wikia's own definition of Universe. While there's some truth to the idea that time in Vestroia flows differently, we don't see any planets set in its dimension other than Vestroia itself. We do see lights in the background, but it's unclear what they are, as nothing really interacts with them. There's no parallel Earth or anything similar. The only time we see alternate Earth in the whole series is in the Defenders of the Core video game - but we're presented there with parallel New Vestroia as well.
It is true that planets like Earth, Vestroia and Vestal are all set in different dimensions, as they're called, but I don't see enough proof that they are completely separate universes - in fact, I see counterproof. In season 2, Vexos Motherpalace leaves Vestal and hides in yet another dimension to avoid getting found. And yet The Brawlers eventually track him, creating a stellar map leading to its location, which is blatant proof that both dimensions are in the same universe. Professor Clay also manages to uncover from the Phantom data a similar map leading to the location from which it was sent, planet Neathia. Which was also stated to inhabit a different universe/dimension. The Brawlers use one and the same dimensional travel system to get to all aforementioned places as well as Vestroia, which would suggest that their status isn't much different.
The most likely model of Bakugan verse is that all locations in the series, apart from alternate world in Defenders of the Core and possibly Doom Dimension, are set within the same universe, but different galaxies can differ in physical properties, which is why they are known as "dimensions". This is supported by villains like Naga and Spectra aspiring to be "supreme rulers of The Universe" (which is quite a low bar if their plans brought them to multiple universes already). Vestroia dimension is a special case of such dimension, as it had barriers preventing dimensional travel between it and other galaxies. Those were shattered by Dr Michael's Dimensional Travel system, then restored by Perfect Dragonoid, and then damaged again by Vestals invasion. Runo's attempt to cross to New Vestroia later in this scan destroys them completely, but the Perfect Core managed to keep the dimension stable despite that (in other words, the plot stopped being concerned about it).
So what did Naga actually do? He initiated the process of Vestroia dimension merging with Earth. Key word being "initiated", because the process was still going on after Naga was defeated. While he still has some impressive feats, such as creating Doom Beings, opening gigantic dimensional gates and sending an energy wave across the planet that stomped all the average Bakugan and damaged the stronger, even tier 5 for Silent Naga may be questioned, because the merging seems to have more to do with instability of Vestroia's cores and Infinity Core's presence on Earth. 2-C is just outright unjustifiable.
I hope that's enough evidence that putting almost the whole verse at 2-C qualifies for revision, but just for good measure I'll throw in a footnote from next time trailer where Spectra calls Alternative Weapon System (established as High 5-B) "a weapon of unparalleled strength". And we're talking here about the owner of Helios MK2 who saw the most powerful New Vestroia Bakugan in action.
Ok, then what tiers do we give to those Bakugan that have 2-C keys? Well, there's still much work ahead of me and everyone else interested in revision, but I have some initial suggestions:
Silent Naga and Infinity Dragonoid - likely High 6-A (it took combined powers of Infinity Dragonoid and five other other powerful Bakugan to kill him. Also, gigantic portals and energy wave stomping all weaker Bakugan at once)
Blitz Dragonoid and Phantom Dharak: At least High 5-A (Code Eve was worried that the clash of Drago and Dharak can split the dimensions and create new ones, and dimension is sufficiently larger than a planet that resides in it. Also, Phantom Dharak vaporized Dragonoid Colossus, Sacred Orb's last line of defense that managed to knock out Linehalt when he was using his Forbidden Power. As Code Eve stated in the previous scan, this power was enough to tear Neathia apart, so that's the level of strength we're talking about here.)
The Perfect Core, Perfect Dragonoid and Hex Dragonoid, since he was channeling the power of the Perfect Core: At Least High 5-A: (repaired Vestroia dimension, remade the planet Vestroia as New Vestroia, fixed all the damage Vestroia caused to Earth, etc.)
Neo Dragonoid: Around High 6-C (Look at this. Calc will likely be needed to determine the ultimate power of this explosion, but just look at this. Just to be clear, this is Neo Dragonoid after summoning some power from The Perfect Core, throughout most of the first half of the season he was way weaker.)
That would be it for now. I hope I didn't make much of a fool out of myself and made my points convincingly enough.
Edit: Jokes on me, there's such a calc already. I will have to analyze it, because I have a feeling the size of New Vestroia is overestimated, but it still supports giving Neo Dragonoid at least High 6-C key, if not higher.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

This is all you buddy.

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree with you

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hello,

I'm new to the community and still learning the ropes. I should probably start with something small and simple, so... How about questioning the scaling of the entire verse?
Don't worry, I did my homework before starting this thread. I hope I have enough argumentation to convince you.
Currently, almost the entire verse is scaled as 2-C, which comes more or less directly from a single feat of Silent Naga fusing together two universes.
The trouble here is that he didn't do such a thing.

And you're already wrong on this, entirely. Will disect this one at a time.

First, GimmyJibbsJr's assertion that planets shown in the series actually inhabit separate universes doesn't survive the confrontation with Wikia's own definition of Universe. While there's some truth to the idea that time in Vestroia flows differently, we don't see any planets set in its dimension other than Vestroia itself. We do see lights in the background, but it's unclear what they are, as nothing really interacts with them. There's no parallel Earth or anything similar. The only time we see alternate Earth in the whole series is in the Defenders of the Core video game - but we're presented there with parallel New Vestroia as well.

Im not even sure what this point is supposed to even mean? Vestroia since the very beginning of the series is outright called a universe on more than one occasion, and had you actually done the research you claimed to do, you would have known that Vestroia was also originally created by the splitting of a universe done by Drago and Dharak's ancestors, Dragonoid and Dharaknoid.

On top of Vestroia and Earth being blatantly called their own dimensions as well, it is quite clearly a universe, has been called a universe and nothing else says otherwise on that.

Also, "Some lights set in the background" is by default taken as stars, as per our standards here and with all of the given evidence of Vestroia being temporarily and spatially separated as its own space-time, its unfounded and quite ridiculous to assume that the cosmic aspect of Vestroia isn't in fact Vestroia's dimension.

It is true that planets like Earth, Vestroia and Vestal are all set in different dimensions, as they're called, but I don't see enough proof that they are completely separate universes - in fact, I see counterproof. In season 2, Vexos Motherpalace leaves Vestal and hides in yet another dimension to avoid getting found. And yet The Brawlers eventually track him, creating a stellar map leading to its location, which is blatant proof that both dimensions are in the same universe.

This is the same series that literally does dimensional hopping and universe crossing on a normal basis. Even a virtual reality like Bakugan Interspace is considered it's own space-time in the series. How is designing a map, through technology that is quite obviously incredibly advanced, a "counter proof" for anything here?

Hell, the actual map isn't even exactly a good example of a counter proof when we see the universes on screen, and literally right after the opening credits to the episode, Professor Michael and Alice both search for the Vestals entry point into Earth's universe with technology capable of tracking dimensional gates and entry points.

Professor Clay also manages to uncover from the Phantom data a similar map leading to the location from which it was sent, planet Neathia. Which was also stated to inhabit a different universe/dimension. The Brawlers use one and the same dimensional travel system to get to all aforementioned places as well as Vestroia, which would suggest that their status isn't much different.

And again, see above. Their Technology, as I've reiterated and as you yourself have shown for me, is blatantly capable of casual dimensional hopping and universe traveling like its a normal every day thing for them. This is not somehow counter evidence against these dimensions being their own separate universes.

The most likely model of Bakugan verse is that all locations in the series, apart from alternate world in Defenders of the Core and possibly Doom Dimension, are set within the same universe, but different galaxies can differ in physical properties, which is why they are known as "dimensions".

And as said above, this is wrong.

This is supported by villains like Naga and Spectra aspiring to be "supreme rulers of The Universe" (which is quite a low bar if their plans brought them to multiple universes already).

Seriously? A vague title of dubbing themselves as "ruler of the universe" isn't an argument in any way. Plenty of verses that have cosmologies on clear multiversal scales do this. Taking this literally as some sort of measure against the verse's cosmology is, no offense, laughable.

Vestroia dimension is a special case of such dimension, as it had barriers preventing dimensional travel between it and other galaxies. Those were shattered by Dr Michael's Dimensional Travel system, then restored by Perfect Dragonoid, and then damaged again by Vestals invasion. Runo's attempt to cross to New Vestroia later in this scan destroys them completely, but the Perfect Core managed to keep the dimension stable despite that (in other words, the plot stopped being concerned about it).

Not seeing what this point is supposed to entail.

So what did Naga actually do? He initiated the process of Vestroia dimension merging with Earth. Key word being "initiated", because the process was still going on after Naga was defeated.

Which is not an anti feat for Naga. The point is that he is capable of causing the merging with the power of the Silent Core, and that is a 2-C feat.

Naga's defeat also is irrelevant to this since he was using a power source that Drago took from him after defeating him, hence why Drago needed to become the new core in other to separate the 2 worlds.

because the merging seems to have more to do with instability of Vestroia's cores and Infinity Core's presence on Earth. 2-C is just outright unjustifiable.

This is never said to be the case. Or implied to be the case either. This is head canon.

So, if it wasn't obvious, I am against any sort of downgrade for these guys in any way, shape or form. The OP is taking bits of material thinking they are counter points against the ratings, when they are in fact, not. Technology thats quite obviously stupidly advanced thats capable of dimensional traveling like its as easy as breathing is not anti evidence at all. It speaks to the tech being stupidly impressive.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I am also against the downgrade. I won't be going too deep into this (partially because I'm not used to the new UI and I'm too lazy to figure it out lmao), but I do think ProfessorKukui4Life summarized the main points quite well.

The introduction in the very first episode of the series explicitly refers to the place Bakugan came from as "an alternate universe". That in and of itself already confirms and counters your claim that it isn't one, but we also have literal stars existing within it. The Boy Who Holds The Key already pointed out that there are "lights", and I'm pretty sure by standard assumption those are to be considered stars. Meaning that even if there wasn't a solid planet there, the space must have been large enough to contain a number of stars. And just because there is not an explicit parallel to earth made readily apparent to us does not mean that this not a universe.

Also something I just find odd is that you say that there is "some truth to time flowing differently in Vestroia", as if that's not been concretely confirmed already, when Dr. Michael, iirc, visited Vestroia for what felt like moments and then found out an extremely long period had gone by on Earth since he vanished. But that's just a small thing, I guess.

But yeah at this point I do think that ProfessorKukui4Life covered things well, and I disagree with the downgrade proposal.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also something I just find odd is that you say that there is "some truth to time flowing differently in Vestroia", as if that's not been concretely confirmed already, when Dr. Michael, iirc, visited Vestroia for what felt like moments and then found out an extremely long period had gone by on Earth since he vanished. But that's just a small thing, I guess.

To confirm, yup this did happen. When Michael went to visit Vestroia for the first time and encountered Naga, a mere moment passed. When he came back, 6 whole months passed by in the human world. And Michael then outright states that time flows completely differently between the 2 worlds.

So the OP is wrong when it says there's only "some truth". It's extremely blatant and straight forward.

 

[The_Boy_Who_Holds_The_Key]

..well, no one said that it's going to be easy.

Vestroia since the very beginning of the series is outright called a universe on more than one occasion

But still very rarely. This was mostly the case in Season 1, where Vestroia worked like a pocket reality, so the word "universe" was the useful mental shortcut. However, as Universe page states:

It is common for fictional characters to be scaled based on creating one or multiple "Worlds", "Dimensions", or "Realms". However, many users may often be confused on whether those are synonyms of universes or simply pocket realities. They may have indications of being quite large, but they still require some more in depth or specific evidence to truly be universes. Otherwise, they will simply be pocket realities judged by their known size.

So pocket reality isn't immediately a universe. And I know what are you going to say now:

If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.

And indeed, both Dan and Drago refer to Vestroia as universe in episode 1. Are they reliable source though? Dan is a 12 year old who isn't particularly flexed in physics and wasn't informed about every piece of Vestroia's lore yet at this point. Drago has yet to learn about his ancestry and destiny. Serving as a voiceover doesn't immediately make them omniscient, they can be mistaken. Especially since the function of this voiceover is more to give the audience a general idea about the setting and less to answer the questions of the powerscalers.
Let's check with the sources that we can agree are reliable:
Code Eve in her monologue about Bakugan origins doesn't use the word "universe". She talks about "dimensions". Dragonoid and Dharaknoid split THE DIMENSION in half.
Dr Michael, a physicist who traveled to Vestroia, doesn't use the word "universe" either. He's talking about "worlds".
So interestingly whenever the definition of "dimensions" in Bakugan gets meaningful, they aren't stated to be universes.

How is designing a map, through technology that is quite obviously incredibly advanced, a "counter proof" for anything here?

This map very clearly presents the "dimensions" that Earth, Vexos Motherpalace and Neathia are in as galaxies. By assuming those dimensions are universes, we also assume that those universes look from the outside like galaxies... for some reason.

Not seeing what this point is supposed to entail.

I'm happy to elaborate! What I was trying to tell is that Vestroia is a bit different from the dimensions we're introduced to later, because in Season 1 it worked like pocket reality. In season 1, it was comprised of six worlds of unusual shape inhabiting separate dimensions and another dimension containing the cores. Then Perfect Dragonoid reorganized them into a single spherical planet, New Vestroia, and himself entered the Cores' pocket dimension as the Perfect Core.
Why am I stating the obvious?
To explain my line about 'lights'. I was originally going to write that we don't see any stars in Vestroia dimension, but in Season 2 episode 1 I suddenly found those "lights" and was confused why haven't I registered them before. Here's why: they simply weren't there. Throughout the whole Season 1 Vestroia is displayed as surrounded by this otherworldly colourful phantasmagoria, like here. This can be a large space - or a dimensional wall, place your guesses. In later seasons, pocket dimensions like the ones Code Eve and Genesis Dragonoid reside in share this way of presentation. Episode 52 of the original series shows us New Vestroia forming as this vortex, but we don't see it fully formed. The first time we see New Vestroia as a sphere is Season 2 Episode 1, and suddenly the colourful background is gone. Instead, we see the lights/stars. Code Eve's speech also presents that this background appeared when Old Vestroia collapsed.
What happened here? You can call it a head canon again, but I think it's reasonable to think that this background was some kind of barrier keeping the six world structure of Vestroia. That would mean Vestroia was a pocket reality residing in Vestroia dimension. Then Perfect Dragonoid dissolved the pocket reality and restored it to the form of a planet. We saw Naga interacting with this pocket reality - but not with those stars.
In other words; New Vestroia resides in dimension/galaxy created by Genesis Dragonoid that works like the other dimensions/galaxies, but in place of New Vestroia there was once hermetic pocket reality Vestroia. The stars surrounding it were invisible from the inside, so it would make sense for its inhabitants like Naga and Drago or a casual like Dan to mistake it for a universe.
Go on and call it a mental gymnastics, but I think it's reasonable to assume that Naga was fusing Earth with pocket reality we saw in Season 1. Well I'm sorry, but this pocket reality doesn't meet the criteria to be called a universe, because not only there is nothing determinable inside beyond the attribute worlds, but also we have no proof this space is infinite in size.


And yes, time DOES flow differently in Vestroia. "There's some truth" was an understatement, I'm sorry about that. But this isn't a proof Vestroia is a universe:

realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.

My main point here is that I don't think there's anywhere enough evidence to think Vestroia is a universe. Even if we assume Naga was in fact fusing the stars we haven't seen until Season 2 with Earth as well:

Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.

All you have going for Vestroia being a Universe are 3 characters calling it that way in episode 1. I claim this is not enough. The most informed characters in the verse didn't confirm that, it would require us to believe universes look like galaxies, it provokes question why we were introduced to only single planets (two in case of Dharaknoid dimension) in each universe, we have no evidence it's large enough. It just doesn't make sense in the context of the show. Season 2 displays The Alternative destroying the moon as impressive; how is it impressive if we saw universes being fused?

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

This was mostly the case in Season 1, where Vestroia worked like a pocket reality

Vestroia is not (nor it works like) a Pocket Reality.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Drago not knowing about his personal ancestry or destiny isn't necessarily something that makes him unreliable though, since those things aren't inherently tied to worldly knowledge or anything like that, so I doubt that automatically makes him unreliable. Additionally, "rarely" referring to it directly as a universe is still an instance of it being referred to as a universe and I legitimately don't get why we should ignore those instances altogether in favor of viewing them, as you put it, as pocket realities.

Also, since they are narrators in this instance in which they refer to the spaces as universes, wouldn't that actually make them more reliable, then? Because as you said, they're trying to give the audience a general idea of what's going on and what's at play here. What they said isn't really ever contradicted either, and they have no reason to lie. the info they share is built and expanded upon, naturally, but never actually refuted. Plus the way Dan refers to everything with these intros is in past tense, so if we're seriously approaching this from an angle of Dan as a character presenting this information to us, then implicitly he'd be doing so with the knowledge and experience of Dan from later or near the end of the season/series, thus making him highly informed on the matter. Also on the Bakugan wiki, on Naga's page, there is an excerpt from a Bakugan: New Vestroia Handbook that says the following: "Naga opened a portal between Earth and Vestroia when he tried to obtain the power sources of Vestroia for himself. A huge explosion rocked the universe, and Naga ended up absorbing the negative energy of the Silent Core. He recruited Masquerade and Hal-G to help him find the location of the Infinity Core, so he could finally obtain ultimate power over Vestroia and Earth. In the end, a power overload ended Naga's reign of terror for good." Vestroia in official material is also explicitly referred to as a universe, and not just in the introduction to the franchise. You can view the excerpt here.

Also as a point for that last bit, there are plenty of instances in which destroying something far below the generally accepted level of power is considered "impressive". For instance, in Dragonball Super, when Goku and Vegeta went to the future to fight Zamasu and Goku Black, despite being well into the planet level range and being considered universal, their max power output didn't immediately destroy the entire planet around them. They kept destroying buildings and skyscrapers and were still impressed with each other's level of power. So imo just feels like a case of that going on here for The Alternative's feat of moon busting.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But still very rarely. This was mostly the case in Season 1, where Vestroia worked like a pocket reality, so the word "universe" was the useful mental shortcut. However, as Universe page states:

Vestroia working like a "pocket reality" however was never made the case in the first place. The only thing about it that can be considered pocket dimensions would be the old 6 attribute worlds that were present in Vestroia, but that doesn't speak to the actual space-time timeline of Vestroia as a whole, which is whats called a universe on multiple occasions.

And this doesn't take into account what Vestroia ends up becoming after Drago becomes the perfect core, which very clearly gives enough details within Vestroia's reality to establish it as a universe.

So pocket reality isn't immediately a universe. And I know what are you going to say now:

And indeed, both Dan and Drago refer to Vestroia as universe in episode 1. Are they reliable source though? Dan is a 12 year old who isn't particularly flexed in physics and wasn't informed about every piece of Vestroia's lore yet at this point.

Uh, Dan wasn't the one who specified Vestroia as being a universe. Drago was. And on that note:

Drago has yet to learn about his ancestry and destiny. Serving as a voiceover doesn't immediately make them omniscient, they can be mistaken.

This, no offense, is ridiculous. Drago doesn't need to know about his ancestral origins to know about a realm that he has literally lived in for all of his entire life, and eventually becomes post S1. Vestroia is his natural domain, like all the other Bakugan that aren't Vestal, Neithian or Gundalian originated. There is absolutely no reason for Drago to be mistaken about how he describes his home dimension, especially when Drago knows enough that he tried stopping Naga from doing what Naga planned to pull for for all of S1.

And on that note, Naga as well refers to Vestroia as a universe in literally the first episode when traveling to where the Infinity and Silent Cores were.

Especially since the function of this voiceover is more to give the audience a general idea about the setting and less to answer the questions of the powerscalers.

Irelevant. The point still stands that he (and others) have called Vestroia a universe, and that is what is to be taken. "Powerscaling" not being in mind when this said means absolutely nothing. Otherwise, every single universe-scale statement in fiction would be thrown out.

Unless you know of an author that actually cares about vs debating and scaling like online fandoms such as us do.

Let's check with the sources that we can agree are reliable:
Code Eve in her monologue about Bakugan origins doesn't use the word "universe". She talks about "dimensions". Dragonoid and Dharaknoid split THE DIMENSION in half.

Did you forget "dimensions" are synonymous with Universe? And in Bakugan's case, that is made the case for the entire series.

Dr Michael, a physicist who traveled to Vestroia, doesn't use the word "universe" either. He's talking about "worlds".
So interestingly whenever the definition of "dimensions" in Bakugan gets meaningful, they aren't stated to be universes.

See above. "Worlds", "Dimensions", etc. are all synonymous terms with universe. This is an incredibly basic thing in fiction.

This map very clearly presents the "dimensions" that Earth, Vexos Motherpalace and Neathia are in as galaxies. By assuming those dimensions are universes, we also assume that those universes look from the outside like galaxies... for some reason.

No, they aren't galaxies just because you say they are.

I'm happy to elaborate! What I was trying to tell is that Vestroia is a bit different from the dimensions we're introduced to later, because in Season 1 it worked like pocket reality. In season 1, it was comprised of six worlds of unusual shape inhabiting separate dimensions and another dimension containing the cores. Then Perfect Dragonoid reorganized them into a single spherical planet, New Vestroia, and himself entered the Cores' pocket dimension as the Perfect Core.
Why am I stating the obvious?

Because its not obvious. The 6 attributed worlds of what Vestroia contained in S1, and the dimensional area of where the Infinity and Silent Cores used to be present as, were not the full establishment of Vestroia. This is your head canon.

The only things reorganized into the planet were the 6 attributed worlds Vestroia had. Not the entire dimensional space of Vestroia itself. This is very clearly shown to be the case in the last episode of S1 when the only things shown to be fused into one where the 6 worlds.

To explain my line about 'lights'. I was originally going to write that we don't see any stars in Vestroia dimension, but in Season 2 episode 1 I suddenly found those "lights" and was confused why haven't I registered them before. Here's why: they simply weren't there. Throughout the whole Season 1 Vestroia is displayed as surrounded by this otherworldly colourful phantasmagoria, like here. This can be a large space - or a dimensional wall, place your guesses. In later seasons, pocket dimensions like the ones Code Eve and Genesis Dragonoid reside in share this way of presentation. Episode 52 of the original series shows us New Vestroia forming as this vortex, but we don't see it fully formed. The first time we see New Vestroia as a sphere is Season 2 Episode 1, and suddenly the colourful background is gone. Instead, we see the lights/stars. Code Eve's speech also presents that this background appeared when Old Vestroia collapsed.

Again, this hardly matters, because the "otherworldly colorful phantasmagoria" would still be the actual dimension of Vestroia, as in the actual timeline of Vestroia, and the 6 worlds that were fused together by Drago would be what the planet of Vestroia is where the actual Bakugan live on.

What happened here? You can call it a head canon again, but I think it's reasonable to think that this background was some kind of barrier keeping the six world structure of Vestroia. That would mean Vestroia was a pocket reality residing in Vestroia dimension. Then Perfect Dragonoid dissolved the pocket reality and restored it to the form of a planet. We saw Naga interacting with this pocket reality - but not with those stars.

You're right, it is a head canon, because this is making a bunch of mental gymnastic leaps with assumptions instead of going with the Occams Razor default interpretation that when Drago used the 2 cores to separate the 2 worlds and reform Vestroia, he did it to Vestroia as a whole. The entire dimension itself.

There is literally no reason to think otherwise on that.

In other words; New Vestroia resides in dimension/galaxy created by Genesis Dragonoid that works like the other dimensions/galaxies, but in place of New Vestroia there was once hermetic pocket reality Vestroia. The stars surrounding it were invisible from the inside, so it would make sense for its inhabitants like Naga and Drago or a casual like Dan to mistake it for a universe.

And as said above, this is utter head canon that makes no sense and is trying to push for an interpretation thats not supported by anything compared to the default and reasonable assertion.

Go on and call it a mental gymnastics, but I think it's reasonable to assume that Naga was fusing Earth with pocket reality we saw in Season 1. Well I'm sorry, but this pocket reality doesn't meet the criteria to be called a universe, because not only there is nothing determinable inside beyond the attribute worlds, but also we have no proof this space is infinite in size.

Yeah no, thats not how it works here. You personally thinking its not a universe doesn't mean it isn't, nor do we need to go with your interpretation of the events.

And yes, time DOES flow differently in Vestroia. "There's some truth" was an understatement, I'm sorry about that. But this isn't a proof Vestroia is a universe:

Not main evidence, sure. But most definitely a supporting factor to establishing it as a separate universe from the human universe.

My main point here is that I don't think there's anywhere enough evidence to think Vestroia is a universe. Even if we assume Naga was in fact fusing the stars we haven't seen until Season 2 with Earth as well:

And see above. I disagree. We have enough evidence for Vestroia being a universe, without even factoring in the fact that it was going to be fused into one dimension with the human world.

Which is, for beyond obvious reasons, a universe as its directly based off of our own, like many fictional series and Vestroia would hardly be able to cause destruction to the human universe if it wasn't one itself.

All you have going for Vestroia being a Universe are 3 characters calling it that way in episode 1.

Its actually not even just in episode 1. Later episodes establish it as a universe as well. But moving on.

I claim this is not enough. The most informed characters in the verse didn't confirm that, it would require us to believe universes look like galaxies, it provokes question why we were introduced to only single planets (two in case of Dharaknoid dimension) in each universe, we have no evidence it's large enough. It just doesn't make sense in the context of the show. Season 2 displays The Alternative destroying the moon as impressive; how is it impressive if we saw universes being fused?

Actually, your whole point on "only 2 planets being shown in the dimensions" makes perfect sense within the context of the series. And for very simple reasons. They are the main settings of those seasons.

The planet of Vestroia is where the Bakugan themselves live on, and is the main setting for most of the season. Same thing with Gundalian Invaders showing Neithia and Gundalia from their own realms, who were at war with each other in this season, and were the key plot in the story. They are the most important settings, it absolutely doesn't mean there aren't other planets and such magically non-existent there. Your point here would be akin to saying that a story that focuses the setting on earth means that the universe only has earth within it, which is just silly.

And as for your point on The Alternative, blatant misuse of the Area of Effect Fallacy. It's simple attack potency.

 

[Teezar]

I'm disagreeing to the downgrade FRA.

 

[The_Boy_Who_Holds_The_Key]

Drago not knowing about his personal ancestry or destiny isn't necessarily something that makes him unreliable though, since those things aren't inherently tied to worldly knowledge or anything like that, so I doubt that automatically makes him unreliable. Additionally, "rarely" referring to it directly as a universe is still an instance of it being referred to as a universe and I legitimately don't get why we should ignore those instances altogether in favor of viewing them, as you put it, as pocket realities.

...you know what? You're right. I'm changing my line of argumentation.

While I personally still don't think Vestroia should be treated as a universe and I have counterpoints to what you and ProfessorKukui4Life have said, I don't think that right now I have evidence strong enough to convince you that Drago was simply wrong about the nature of his world in Season 1. We'll probably come back to this dispute one day, but for now I'm modifying my downgrade proposal. Let's leave Silent Naga and his 2-C feat alone and talk about Apollonir.

You gave him and the other Legendary Warriors a 2-C tier, based upon their battles against Hex Dragonoid with the power of the Perfect Core and Farbros. However, I don't think this is justified.
Apollonir won with Hex Dragonoid via hax that wouldn't even work if Dan wasn't there. Also, while he was doing alright against base Hex Dragonoid, when Spectra started summoning the power from The Perfect Core, he got completely outmatched; he took hit after hit, not being able to harm Drago in any way despite the assistance from best brawler in existence. In any other circumstances this battle would have been a stomp. Furthermore, he wasn't able to make use of energy he drained from Drago; he was knocked down alongside him, and in the next episode proved unable to open the portal to New Vestroia for a second time because of exhaustion from this battle.
When it comes to Farbros fight, he effortlessly tanked all Legendary Warriors' attacks except for Infinity Waver, which means they had to join forces to even meaningfully harm Farbros. Combine that with the fact that Farbros doesn't have Bakugan natural endurance or regeneration and has to rely on FARBAS system to repair the damage done to him (I'm glad that we can use Bakugan Wiki as a source now). Once equipped with Assail system, Farbros completely stomped them... Where are these 2-C feats?
(and no, we can't take beating Hex Dragonoid without the Perfect Core power as 2-C feat based on Apollonir's statement that Neo Dragonoid became "nearly as powerful as the Perfect Core itself", because Apollonir referred to end of the arc Neo Dragonoid. This statement should be taken in conjunction with the previous one that "a Bakugan evolves through battle". Base Hex Dragonoid is notably weaker than end-of-the-arc Neo Dragonoid, because he didn't go through the same battles yet, thus their AP can't be equalized. I'll also point out that "nearly" means that there's still an unprecised gap of power between Neo Dragonoid and Perfect Dragonoid, so scaling Neo as 2-C is also far-fetched.)
With that, I propose subsequent changes:

• Apollonir should be downgraded to likely 3-A or even 3-B, as he performed a 3-A feat alongside the other Legendary Soldiers, but it's a collective feat and it proved lethal for them, as Bakugan in Doom Dimension is treated as dead. Separating Drago from the Perfect Core can also be seen as 3-A feat, but it's again the collective one;
• Bakugan scaled from their feats, like Alpha Hydranoid and Aluze should also get this tier.

• also, Neo Dragonoid tier should be reworked into "at least (new tier), possibly 2-C", since it's based on the statement too vague to determine if Drago's really 2-C. Same applies to Cross Dragonoid (who should be comparable to Apollonir due to Pyrus energy being bestowed upon him) and Helix Dragonoid (who should be comparable to 6 Legendary Soldiers collectively, since he holds all Attribute Energies). Lumino Dragonoid should be the first one after Perfect Dragonoid with "strong" 2-C due to having the Element, which is described as similar to Infinity Core in its abilities.
• Transmutation (into a trident via Dragon Proudia) and Power Bestowal should be added to Apollonir's powers.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I will say that Alpha Hydranoid, I think, should still be 2-C on the basis that he, alongside the other main Evolved Bakugan of S1, fought and killed the Paladin Army that Hal G summoned that were able to hurt Infinity Drago, who was slightly superior to Silent Naga.

That said, a possible downgrade to 3-A or 3-B is an interesting discussion topic. I'd like to get ProfessorKukui4Life's thoughts on that, but I'm down to keep talking about that possible change. Can't leave a big response right now, but will definitely give my thoughts later.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The 2-C scaling isn't something I can 100% speak on since ive been off my mark with who's been scaled to what on here for a little while, so I don't know the full reasons for why some of the characters became 2-C from the last time I touched upon the verse.

That being said, if the Paladins can somewhat stagger Drago, they should be 2-C. Downscaled by a good amount, but 2-C.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

iirc the Paladins were kinda beating on Drago honestly

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

iirc the Paladins were kinda beating on Drago honestly

To be fair, id find that kind of outlierish seeing as they get disposed of in the next episode. It would be more safer to say they can stagger Drago and fend off some of his attacks enough to be Naga's defense squad.

Which should be reasonable given they're Naga's direct right hand guards and Hal-G wouldn't be stupid enough to think every day fodders can defend someone possessing one of Vestroia's cores unless they were at least somewhat powerful.

 

[The_Boy_Who_Holds_The_Key]

I've watched closely the battle with Fifth Paladin and these are my observations:

• Naga sends a purple beam straight before Paladins' attack, and they respond with red glow inside their helmets. Can this be a buff?
• Paladin attack Drago with their spears and shields. They collectively manage to knock Drago off balance several times, and they always use either spears or shields for that. Those shields are also capable of tanking Drago's attacks.
• When Dan uses Hyper Merge (which according to Bakugan Wikia transfers 100 Gs from opponents to Brawlers Bakugan), spears and shields disappear and Paladins get petrified. They don't even attempt to block or dodge the attacks. I see no explanation provided for that.
• Paladins are not just beaten, but completely destroyed, and destroying a Bakugan is usually extremely hard in the series. Here, it takes one casual attack from each of the main cast.
• According to Bakugan Wikia, Paladins are created by Hal-G. If they're 2-C, then Hal-G is now capable of creating 2-C beings.

Would it be reasonable to think that Paladins have durability or even are themselves way below 2-C, but Naga amped up their equipment?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well in fairness, Hal-G creating 2-C Bakugan doesn't seem that much of a stretch when Hal-G and even Masquerades entire existence was done using the Silent Core's power to alter Alice and Professor Micheal.

Plus, Naga has already shown to use the Silent Core to give Bakugan who were loyal to him powerful amps.

 

[Spinoirr]

can't let this die as this verse is basically dry as bones on the wiki