Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,447
How none of this got brought up during the 6-C downgrades is beyond me, but we ended up at a good place for stats regardless and that’s fine by me.
Spirit as an Energy System
So first things first, we gotta prove why any of this scales to physicals at all. This will also serve as an explanation for high-tier feat scaling, though that isn’t the focus of this thread.
Spirit is the main concept here. It is something that every character in the verse possesses, and is the medium through which they use the vast majority of their techniques. You can read a more complete explanation here, but the core idea is that due to Spirit’s omnipresence as an energy source in the verse, proving that it equates to physical stats would mean basically every feat in the series would also scale to physicals, something very important for 2 of the 3 feats listed below.
Spirit is capable of amping physical attacks, not just magical ones. In the STGs, all shot types increase in power as one’s Spirit increases. This includes a few notable shot types; Reimu’s sealing needles, Sakuya’s throwing knives, and Youmu’s sword. The latter is pretty obvious, because it’s a sword; Of course swinging it requires some degree of physical strength, so amping that is amping physical strength as well. For Reimu and Sakuya, their weapons are literally just throwing weapons, which again, is something that requires some degree of physical strength (albeit with a greater reliance on dexterity and precision… which can also be argued as physical stats). Spirit amps all of these shot types just as it amps the more ‘magical’ shot types, so it clearly increases magical and physical power in equal measure; Textbook definition of a UES.
In case that weren’t enough, Spirit is also the same as stamina, which means it literally just is a physical stat; This of course means that increasing your Spirit also increases yet another physical statistic, again a clear example of what a UES is supposed to be.
Finally, Spirit is equated with Qi, which as Meiling’s SCoOW profile explains, is directly correlated with physical power. Since Spirit and Qi are the same thing, this gives us yet another example of Spirit being a direct indicator of one’s physical stats.
Cirno Makes Shaved Ice in the Least Efficient Way Possible
During VFiS, Cirno is recruited by the Three Fairies of Light to help make the summer heat a little bit more bearable. Cirno responds by creating a block of ice like a hundred feet tall and freezing the surrounding area and probably killing a few innocent frogs in the process. Calc is here, and 8-B is a significant improvement over what we have now. Not much else to say here, with the Spirit UES stuff shown above, we can scale 8-B to physical stats as well.
However, this feat is extremely close to 8-B+. We know that average humans in verse are considered superior to fairies, so they should upscale since they’re well within the 1.3x multiplier range from upscaling to upscale to 8-B+. The same holds true for fodder youkai, who are treated as much stronger than humans who can fight on par with fairies. So the scaling chain is weak youkai > humans > fairies (48 tons).
Nitori Recreates the Effects of Global Warming
One of Nitori’s spell cards within the flying fighting games creates a large flash flood, which reaches from ground level up to where the fighters themselves are. This includes the outside world, where the stage in question takes place near some skyscrapers. Calc is here, low 7-C+ results, spirit power makes physical scaling viable, everyone who already scales to Nitori gets upgraded. Not much else to say here.
Meiling Goes Fishing, Almost Destroys the Earth
During the events of Hisoutensoku, Meiling fights against the Giant Catfish within a dream, who absorbs part of Meiling’s power, says it just needs to move and the earth will tremble, and threatens to vaporize it. Meiling then fights it, but ultimately loses.
The feat itself is pretty clear cut, despite Meiling’s loss; The earth shaking is a direct result of Meiling’s own power, after all. And even then, that was just a portion of her power, as she still had enough strength to fight the Giant Catfish and hold her own for a time. And even then, the actual effort needed to accomplish this feat would be extremely casual, what with it being done just through ordinary movement alone. Considering a fraction of her power would be capable of shaking the earth and would’ve potentially vaporized it, and she was able to rival this even while in a weakened state, she should get “At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B” as an AP justification. All mid tiers who are currently accepted as upscaling from Nitori’s flood would scale to this.
But of course, there are some debunks I gotta go over first. The main one being why Meiling scales at all despite the spell card rules. Well, Meiling technically didn’t even need to fight the Giant Catfish to scale, given it’s her own power being used to accomplish the feat, so she could definitely replicate it on her own if she chose to. Even then, the Giant Catfish goes on a whole spiel about destroying the world before the fight; Why, exactly, would someone willing destroy the world arbitrarily decide to hold back while fighting?
Second point is that this fight took place in a dream. But as we all know by now, dreams are equal to reality, and what’s more, the versions of characters that appear within dreams are perfectly equal to their real world counterparts in strength and abilities. So for all intents and purposes, events that take place within dreams are valid to use for scaling.
The final point is that the Giant Catfish is rated as universal, so this would just be an upgrade to universal for Meiling, right? Not necessarily since, the Giant Catfish’s justifications are kinda bad. It assumes that it shapeshifted into the likes of Reimu and Marisa, except it literally didn’t do that. It created replicas of those characters to fight Meiling and steal her energy, but at no point is it implied that the Giant Catfish is in any way comparable (it even says that it sent assassins to handle Meiling, which would be a very out-of-place statement if the Giant Catfish was actually taking on the forms of these characters). So, the Giant Catfish would need to be downgraded to Unknown, given it needed to absorb Meiling’s power to accomplish its only notable AP feat, and the only scaling it has is with its power amped by Meiling.
Note that if this is rejected, the mid tiers would still scale to low 7-B off of Raiko’s storm creation feat thanks to Spirit making environmental destruction a moot point.
There's one small problem here though. All moon rabbits except Reisen scale to 'at least 9-B, possibly 8-C' scaling above Cirno and to Reisen, so they'd become '8-B+, possibly low 7-C+'. Except, Reisen is currently rated as 'at least 8-C, likely far higher', so she'd get low 6-B/5-B scaling. From this, we either need to just flat out scale all moon rabbits directly to Reisen with no 'possibly' or downgrade Reisen.
TL;DR:
-Add a note to the Spirit manipulation page noting that it qualifies as a UES.
-Fairies go from 9-B to 8-B, humans and weak youkai go from 9-B to 8-B+
-Low tiers go from 8-C to Low 7-C+
-Mid tiers go from ‘at least 8-C, likely higher’ to ‘At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B’
-Giant Catfish gets downgraded to Unknown and loses Shapeshifting
Spirit as an Energy System
So first things first, we gotta prove why any of this scales to physicals at all. This will also serve as an explanation for high-tier feat scaling, though that isn’t the focus of this thread.
Spirit is the main concept here. It is something that every character in the verse possesses, and is the medium through which they use the vast majority of their techniques. You can read a more complete explanation here, but the core idea is that due to Spirit’s omnipresence as an energy source in the verse, proving that it equates to physical stats would mean basically every feat in the series would also scale to physicals, something very important for 2 of the 3 feats listed below.
Spirit is capable of amping physical attacks, not just magical ones. In the STGs, all shot types increase in power as one’s Spirit increases. This includes a few notable shot types; Reimu’s sealing needles, Sakuya’s throwing knives, and Youmu’s sword. The latter is pretty obvious, because it’s a sword; Of course swinging it requires some degree of physical strength, so amping that is amping physical strength as well. For Reimu and Sakuya, their weapons are literally just throwing weapons, which again, is something that requires some degree of physical strength (albeit with a greater reliance on dexterity and precision… which can also be argued as physical stats). Spirit amps all of these shot types just as it amps the more ‘magical’ shot types, so it clearly increases magical and physical power in equal measure; Textbook definition of a UES.
In case that weren’t enough, Spirit is also the same as stamina, which means it literally just is a physical stat; This of course means that increasing your Spirit also increases yet another physical statistic, again a clear example of what a UES is supposed to be.
Finally, Spirit is equated with Qi, which as Meiling’s SCoOW profile explains, is directly correlated with physical power. Since Spirit and Qi are the same thing, this gives us yet another example of Spirit being a direct indicator of one’s physical stats.
Cirno Makes Shaved Ice in the Least Efficient Way Possible
During VFiS, Cirno is recruited by the Three Fairies of Light to help make the summer heat a little bit more bearable. Cirno responds by creating a block of ice like a hundred feet tall and freezing the surrounding area and probably killing a few innocent frogs in the process. Calc is here, and 8-B is a significant improvement over what we have now. Not much else to say here, with the Spirit UES stuff shown above, we can scale 8-B to physical stats as well.
However, this feat is extremely close to 8-B+. We know that average humans in verse are considered superior to fairies, so they should upscale since they’re well within the 1.3x multiplier range from upscaling to upscale to 8-B+. The same holds true for fodder youkai, who are treated as much stronger than humans who can fight on par with fairies. So the scaling chain is weak youkai > humans > fairies (48 tons).
Nitori Recreates the Effects of Global Warming
One of Nitori’s spell cards within the flying fighting games creates a large flash flood, which reaches from ground level up to where the fighters themselves are. This includes the outside world, where the stage in question takes place near some skyscrapers. Calc is here, low 7-C+ results, spirit power makes physical scaling viable, everyone who already scales to Nitori gets upgraded. Not much else to say here.
Meiling Goes Fishing, Almost Destroys the Earth
During the events of Hisoutensoku, Meiling fights against the Giant Catfish within a dream, who absorbs part of Meiling’s power, says it just needs to move and the earth will tremble, and threatens to vaporize it. Meiling then fights it, but ultimately loses.
The feat itself is pretty clear cut, despite Meiling’s loss; The earth shaking is a direct result of Meiling’s own power, after all. And even then, that was just a portion of her power, as she still had enough strength to fight the Giant Catfish and hold her own for a time. And even then, the actual effort needed to accomplish this feat would be extremely casual, what with it being done just through ordinary movement alone. Considering a fraction of her power would be capable of shaking the earth and would’ve potentially vaporized it, and she was able to rival this even while in a weakened state, she should get “At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B” as an AP justification. All mid tiers who are currently accepted as upscaling from Nitori’s flood would scale to this.
But of course, there are some debunks I gotta go over first. The main one being why Meiling scales at all despite the spell card rules. Well, Meiling technically didn’t even need to fight the Giant Catfish to scale, given it’s her own power being used to accomplish the feat, so she could definitely replicate it on her own if she chose to. Even then, the Giant Catfish goes on a whole spiel about destroying the world before the fight; Why, exactly, would someone willing destroy the world arbitrarily decide to hold back while fighting?
Second point is that this fight took place in a dream. But as we all know by now, dreams are equal to reality, and what’s more, the versions of characters that appear within dreams are perfectly equal to their real world counterparts in strength and abilities. So for all intents and purposes, events that take place within dreams are valid to use for scaling.
The final point is that the Giant Catfish is rated as universal, so this would just be an upgrade to universal for Meiling, right? Not necessarily since, the Giant Catfish’s justifications are kinda bad. It assumes that it shapeshifted into the likes of Reimu and Marisa, except it literally didn’t do that. It created replicas of those characters to fight Meiling and steal her energy, but at no point is it implied that the Giant Catfish is in any way comparable (it even says that it sent assassins to handle Meiling, which would be a very out-of-place statement if the Giant Catfish was actually taking on the forms of these characters). So, the Giant Catfish would need to be downgraded to Unknown, given it needed to absorb Meiling’s power to accomplish its only notable AP feat, and the only scaling it has is with its power amped by Meiling.
Note that if this is rejected, the mid tiers would still scale to low 7-B off of Raiko’s storm creation feat thanks to Spirit making environmental destruction a moot point.
There's one small problem here though. All moon rabbits except Reisen scale to 'at least 9-B, possibly 8-C' scaling above Cirno and to Reisen, so they'd become '8-B+, possibly low 7-C+'. Except, Reisen is currently rated as 'at least 8-C, likely far higher', so she'd get low 6-B/5-B scaling. From this, we either need to just flat out scale all moon rabbits directly to Reisen with no 'possibly' or downgrade Reisen.
TL;DR:
-Add a note to the Spirit manipulation page noting that it qualifies as a UES.
-Fairies go from 9-B to 8-B, humans and weak youkai go from 9-B to 8-B+
-Low tiers go from 8-C to Low 7-C+
-Mid tiers go from ‘at least 8-C, likely higher’ to ‘At least Low 6-B, likely 5-B’
-Giant Catfish gets downgraded to Unknown and loses Shapeshifting
