ShinyMagicalGirl
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Yeah that seems fair. I always did think 2-B seems more safe, then tack in a "likely 2-A"
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Bahamut (Granblue) promotion, and possible Dragalia Lost inclusions?
- Thread starter DannyF97
- Start date
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- #42
Ah, Starter, I saw this only after I finished lol. We're all in agreement then, so I guess we can all be satisfied to put down Elysium, Bahamut and Progenitor on 2-A? As you said: we have FEH's world here, then thanks to additional collabs, Persona + Monster Hunter + Megaman's.
If I had to make a compromise anywhere: I could see a case for Elysium remaining 2-A (when you look around, he has the most things to unpack) and letting Bahamut/Progenitor's lesser states be 2-B. However, that will probably not be necessary.
When we're all in agreement, I'll probably consider a thread for Agito soonish, so I'd love to get your thoughts there as well. Before that I'd like to see a consensus then pages for all 3 Gods here.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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If Bahamut's lesser state gets to 2-B then so should Elysium. Zethia did after all just deflect an attack from Void Elysium.
Still, 2-B isn't that bad for them. Elysium's description is like a number so big he can't describe it, and then it further keeps on branching from each decision. So it's not a bad spot for Dragalia.
At best, I can see a "likely" or "possibly" 2-A for all of them
Still, 2-B isn't that bad for them. Elysium's description is like a number so big he can't describe it, and then it further keeps on branching from each decision. So it's not a bad spot for Dragalia.
At best, I can see a "likely" or "possibly" 2-A for all of them
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Also, another thing to note about the Bahamut draft profile that was made is that it does lack a number of abilities from standard dragons, mostly sourcing from the gameplay itself.
Things like Darkness Manipulation due to being a Shadow element dragon, or Power Bestowal for being able to grant humans the ability to shapeshift into his form, at least for his Incomplete form.
It's a WIP, I understand, but I figured that should be noted and should be helpful for you.
(Also, unfortunately, I have been the only active supporter of DL on the wiki ever since it was first published. All those pages so far? Mine.)
Things like Darkness Manipulation due to being a Shadow element dragon, or Power Bestowal for being able to grant humans the ability to shapeshift into his form, at least for his Incomplete form.
It's a WIP, I understand, but I figured that should be noted and should be helpful for you.
(Also, unfortunately, I have been the only active supporter of DL on the wiki ever since it was first published. All those pages so far? Mine.)
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I'm aware, this is why I said the 2-B part is probably not necessary. 2-B is not a bad tier but it simply doesn't feel like the one they'd be in most truthfully speaking. As I understand it they've all got the material for 2-A.
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Hmm. My kudos for making that many profiles lol. Well, would you like a hand with these guys at all? Tiering is pretty much figured out, we can go on and say 2-A. DL has been getting so strong over time it simply seems like the resounding choice to make. This leaves everything else: powers, abilities, durability, speed and etc. Thankfully, this thread isn't asking for excessive stuff. Later, we can get to others too. Just get through these first.
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Mad respect on this one
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Alright, we've already made what relevant points we'd have to. And now to close in.
For the final tiers for Bahamut, Progenitor, and Elysium, I would propose a 2-A sweep.
2-B might sound safe, but really, what's there to be safe from when the writing on the wall says 2-A? The more DL progresses, the more of a case we have for 2-A and not 2-B. Reborn Elysium as well as full power Bahamut/Progenitor would hurl out of a window any doubt in 2-A, when any/all of these come.
I am aware last night I implied current Bahamut/Progenitor could be at 2-B, which in extension would rope Elysium there too - but it was not actually my intention to place any of the three there. I simply stated possibility.
These three are the ones I feel the most confident in giving 2-A, Elysium if I had to choose any of the three. Maybe someone like Chronos could be 2-B in place, though, Chronos seriously needs visiting in his own thread.
The thing is, these three are all indisputably above the rest of Dragalia power-wise. We've looked at not only feats but general details about Dragalia's multiverse (things like FEH and such), so we might as well step into 2-A with this.
That is my proposition.
For the final tiers for Bahamut, Progenitor, and Elysium, I would propose a 2-A sweep.
2-B might sound safe, but really, what's there to be safe from when the writing on the wall says 2-A? The more DL progresses, the more of a case we have for 2-A and not 2-B. Reborn Elysium as well as full power Bahamut/Progenitor would hurl out of a window any doubt in 2-A, when any/all of these come.
I am aware last night I implied current Bahamut/Progenitor could be at 2-B, which in extension would rope Elysium there too - but it was not actually my intention to place any of the three there. I simply stated possibility.
These three are the ones I feel the most confident in giving 2-A, Elysium if I had to choose any of the three. Maybe someone like Chronos could be 2-B in place, though, Chronos seriously needs visiting in his own thread.
The thing is, these three are all indisputably above the rest of Dragalia power-wise. We've looked at not only feats but general details about Dragalia's multiverse (things like FEH and such), so we might as well step into 2-A with this.
That is my proposition.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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The thing with 2-A is that well, the only evidence for it is that one Monster Hunter line with "worlds as infinite as the stars", which can obviously be just hyperbolic. Meanwhile, 2-B has much more going for it, given how many times they state that the worlds are "countless" and that "no number can describe them" and "millions upon millions" and others. Also the fact that every decision also leads to a whole branching of manifold paths.
Cosmology being 2-B is safer (I'm not discarding 2-A as a possibility hence I made the sandbox go "possibly 2-A") and thus Origin and Progenitor would be 2-B, then below that Gala Zethia and Incomplete Bahamut, then Void Ely and Ely. Complete Bahamut/Origin = Unsealed Progenitor > Incomplete Bahamut = Gala Zethia > Void Ely > Ely
Though Starter Pack DID mention that the FEH multiverse might have a connection with Dragalia so if there's another infinite worlds statement there then 2-A might be more solid. So I do wanna confirm if thats a thing @Starter_Pack
Cosmology being 2-B is safer (I'm not discarding 2-A as a possibility hence I made the sandbox go "possibly 2-A") and thus Origin and Progenitor would be 2-B, then below that Gala Zethia and Incomplete Bahamut, then Void Ely and Ely. Complete Bahamut/Origin = Unsealed Progenitor > Incomplete Bahamut = Gala Zethia > Void Ely > Ely
Though Starter Pack DID mention that the FEH multiverse might have a connection with Dragalia so if there's another infinite worlds statement there then 2-A might be more solid. So I do wanna confirm if thats a thing @Starter_Pack
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FEH is actually a really good foundation for 2-A, when Freyja (FEH's) own profile has her at 2-A with the justification FEH has infinite worlds. I know - it's probably not the best idea to use a character not even here, but the FEH crossover has officially put the FEH world together with Dragalia's, meaning we have this to work with in addition to Monster Hunter, and comparing these things then FEH is the more credible basis. After all, the FEH-verse is closely enough knitted with Dragalia's own for the two to interact regularly. A case can easily be made to say DL can reap from this.
Past that, as I understand, 2-B is more the standard for characters who can affect thousands of worlds right? That was what I picked up from the tiering system. I admit it was being read at a late hour, but if that's really the case, Elysium himself demolishes that thousand with his million for 2-A anyway. Bahamut & Progenitor then scale over.
I'll take corrections if need be, though.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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2-B is Multiverse level. It's for thousands to any finite number of universes. 2-A is straight up infinite. A baseline 2-A would be considered countably infinite universes.
Countless is considered 2-B if I recall correctly. Because it's a massive MASSIVE number that Ely can't even describe, but its still not infinite.
Countless is considered 2-B if I recall correctly. Because it's a massive MASSIVE number that Ely can't even describe, but its still not infinite.
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So what do we do when we get to the infinite worlds FEH has (it's in Freyja's profile, in her attack potency) when this would have relevance for DL too? I'd argue more than Monster Hunter; the people of FEH are under Elysium when they go there. Not to say DL has infinite worlds because FEH does, that's obviously bull lol. But when one world that breaks into infinite links up with another and doesn't outclass it, perhaps that is when to retroactively act with more of an equalization.
I mean, Monster Hunter was being used as a standard for tier before this - but FEH is exactly what we'll be needing to take our way up to 2-A here. It becomes feasible on realizing exactly how these worlds are linked, which is to say pretty closely.
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Honestly, it's best to take the 2-B cosmology that is certain and established, with 2-A being added as a possibility.
The thing with the FEH bit is that, while it can be viewed as support for 2-A, keep in mind that this is not 100% solid on its own merits either, since the exact line describes the amount of worlds Alfonse can access as "countless," rather than "infinite." So, I think keeping things as 2-B, possibly 2-A, will keep the ratings the most solid.
Also, I do not want to give anyone any reason to scale Dragalia up to Low 1-C or 1-C because of Persona.
The thing with the FEH bit is that, while it can be viewed as support for 2-A, keep in mind that this is not 100% solid on its own merits either, since the exact line describes the amount of worlds Alfonse can access as "countless," rather than "infinite." So, I think keeping things as 2-B, possibly 2-A, will keep the ratings the most solid.
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This will probably work at first, yes. Though to be more direct than this: I would believe firmly that Reborn Elysium, Full Power Bahamut/Progenitor will be the first to go into 2-A (maybe even scratching 1-C depending how much Cytendo overload them). It's a simple case really: Elysium was as strong as a God at base already, Void increased his powers, and Reborn will do it again. I would say we don't know by how much, but actually, Reborn Nidhogg mopping Tartarus gives us a pretty good idea (granted pre-Reborn Nidhogg would've lost this battle). Bahamut/Progenitor need no introduction, though, Full Power Progenitor single-handedly rules Gala Zethia's timeline, which is its own can of worms to open.
So, we could do 2-B, but we should absolutely add 2-A as well, with the "likely" or "possibly" thing. Let me elaborate a little further by saying it will future proof these guys. What I mean is, if we only did 2-B and left it at that, we'd later see these guys at prime then have to revise then add 2-A. Even giving out the "2-B, likely 2-A" will save us time. As for when these prime versions are actually out, that's when we simply remove the "possibly" for a full scale 2-A.
As for FEH, well, Kindred Ties/Lost Heroes had a lot to unpack, believe me lol. Chrom, Loki and Thorr did most of the lifting for that end.
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I'm sure this is fine, but as you say, the current statistics should remain 2-B, possibly 2-A, since there is no current absolute proof of 2-A at this current time.
This can change with further chapters, but this is where we stand now.
This can change with further chapters, but this is where we stand now.
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Then we're basically in agreement. I was just trying to implore we think ahead enough to account for the extra layers of power we'll no doubt see later (Reborn Elysium is as good a lock now he's Void, we already saw a taster of Full Progenitor... leaving Full Bahamut).
But for now? We can easily justify that thinking ahead with "possibly 2-A".
So, I suppose we can go ahead with formal creation of the profiles correct? No argument is being had, only agreement, and we've landed where we should there.
Edit: forgot other things that will probably be relevant here later, like how Elysium gets teased to be fighting the Progenitor directly, and Bahamut not being our ally (so likely delving further into Bahamut's character thus powers?)
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ShinyMagicalGirl
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Yeah 2-B is definitely the way to go, with 2-A just being a possibly at best.
Anyways like I said, I'm not really a wiki profile maker type of gal but you guys can just take my existing sandbox and then improve upon from there to make Bahamut's profile and the others.
Scaling to Euden, Morsayati and others can wait for another thread so for now, as long we're all in agreement of 2-B Bahamut, then the creation of the pages for him can start now.
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Sure. No way we aren't doing this without 2-A being possible or likely tbh. So, I see where you're coming from.
If I had a plan here: we make Bahamut, then Elysium and Progenitor straight after, using your sandbox for reference (and a ton of extra details for Elysium, plus Progen ruling G!Zethia's time).
After this, the Agito, Chronos and Morsayati all pend covering. I would plan to go over these one by one (the Agito would all be in the same thread). So, even when we do Bahamut/Elysium/Progenitor, things aren't completely done.
So, we have our verdict. This thread relevant trio: Bahamut, Elysium and Progenitor at 2-B base, with 2-A possible/likely. Then, we go over Agito and the others one by one across threads, until we have the other major names dealt with. After all, this thread is not for them at all.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Oh yeah
Nedrick should get two keys. Like: Base | Pact w/ Incomplete Bahamut
He'd scale roughly equal to Gala Zethia since she also has a half of Bahamut's power so logically they should be on par, and thus Nedrick should also get his profile made since he's relevant to Bahamut (Who's the main focus of this thread). So Nedrick gets 2-B too. Idk what his Base form would get, we can discuss that later in a future scaling Dragalia Thread but his Pact key should definitely scale to Zethia.
In this chapter, Phares/Progenitor says that Nedrick has half of Bahamut's power. Audric also fight Phares alongside Nedrick, and Phares actually manages to fight them off. This Progenitor isn't complete yet either, since he still hasn't completely been revived.
So yeah, Nedrick definitely scales; 1. He fights an incomplete Progenitor and 2. Progenitor says he has half of Bahamut's power. In the ending of Chapter 21, Euden and Nedrick are also about to fight so Euden prolly scales too, but that can wait till the next chapter.
Nedrick should get two keys. Like: Base | Pact w/ Incomplete Bahamut
He'd scale roughly equal to Gala Zethia since she also has a half of Bahamut's power so logically they should be on par, and thus Nedrick should also get his profile made since he's relevant to Bahamut (Who's the main focus of this thread). So Nedrick gets 2-B too. Idk what his Base form would get, we can discuss that later in a future scaling Dragalia Thread but his Pact key should definitely scale to Zethia.
In this chapter, Phares/Progenitor says that Nedrick has half of Bahamut's power. Audric also fight Phares alongside Nedrick, and Phares actually manages to fight them off. This Progenitor isn't complete yet either, since he still hasn't completely been revived.
So yeah, Nedrick definitely scales; 1. He fights an incomplete Progenitor and 2. Progenitor says he has half of Bahamut's power. In the ending of Chapter 21, Euden and Nedrick are also about to fight so Euden prolly scales too, but that can wait till the next chapter.
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Good points. Another thread should definitely be opened for Zethia and Nedrick as well. Unsure about Euden, probably later when he gets a more clear power-up.
I want to ask about the Agito, but I will probably reserve such questions for when these guys (Bahamut/other two) are made, for I want Agito to be done straight after. They're fairly big for DL, so even if we have concluded appropriately on this thread, I'd still say buckle up for others.
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Well, there's not really a need for the debating half of this. It seems the consensus has ultimately been met looking at the posts which occurred.
I suppose we need DDM or Starter on this then? Creations of Bahamut (Dragalia), Progenitor & Elysium profiles with the ranking of 2-B, possibly 2-A (might retroactively add 2-A flat out instead of merely being possible if full power forms jam pack the trio to that point).
I suppose we need DDM or Starter on this then? Creations of Bahamut (Dragalia), Progenitor & Elysium profiles with the ranking of 2-B, possibly 2-A (might retroactively add 2-A flat out instead of merely being possible if full power forms jam pack the trio to that point).
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Just get back into VSBW and I see this. From just looking through quickly it looks pretty good.
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Appreciate your input!
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Alright, thanks for the input. Where the case for 2-A comes from is mostly in the idea Elysium, Bahamut and Progenitor's current forms are all "lesser". As example: Elysium's default state pretty much has the power of a God already. But, he then assumes a Void form in the newest chapter, and any time a dragon gets a Void form their powers exponentially rise. Then, we have the Reborn form. Elysium is not here yet but he is very likely to reach it later because every Dragon with a Void form before him has gone Reborn. And basically, Reborn is another significant power increase. Elysium reached his millions of worlds at base, so by the time he gets to Reborn, even if he isn't explicitly shown doing it then 2-A is safe assumption (DL is more about telling and not showing, anyway). To show my point isn't unfounded: Base Elysium went from struggling against Euden, to reaching his Void form and being mere seconds away from one-shotting Euden (it taking Zethia with a Bahamut pact to no-sell him).
Bahamut and Progenitor are also in a state they could use a power increase (though, Progenitor at full power has complete rule over the world Gala Zethia came from, which is also a world Elysium will have seen). However, both Bahamut/Progenitor are supposed to be on Elysium's caliber of power, equal at minimum.
Right now, we will be free to add "possibly 2-A" going off the above basis, and when we get to the relevant points Elysium/the other 2 have their prime forms, I think we're safe to put it on formally. It is just a minor, retroactive change that would be done later into the profile's lifespans.
At this moment, what I'd be after is some sort of go-ahead on the creations. Not really sure if I could get to it when this thread is concluded, but even then I'm not sure I'm good enough to fully create 3 profiles, so I might need someone else to do it as I help with pointers and stuff?
ShinyMagicalGirl
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This doesn't work because you can't just assume Ely goes from 2-B to 2-A with just a form. The gap is literally infinite. Also Elysium and Void Elysium definitely aren't on the level of Gala Zethia/Incomplete Bahamut- let alone Complete Bahamut.
I think the chapter shows that its pretty that Elysium is lower in power and in the scaling chain than Bahamut and Progenitor. See my reasons above, where Half-Power Bahamut Zethia casually deflects an attack from Void Ely. So even if Void Ely will get a Reborn self, at best it'd be around Half-Bahamut's power and not Complete Bahamut or Full Power Progenitor.
Basically, the God tiers are Origin and Progenitor at their peak. Everyone else from there downscales.
Wanna also add that Elysium just saw and visited those worlds in his Base. Its not an AP feat, he just saw countless timelines. He "took charge" of the multiverse yes but watching over a multiverse doesn't automatically mean you scale to that in AP. What makes it an AP feat though is via Origin and Progenitor. Since Elysium said that there are countless worlds that a number can't define them and that each of those worlds further branch out endlessly based on decisions and moments, then this must mean the whole Cosmology is 2-B. For it to scale, you'd have to either create or destroy that cosmology. Origin and Progenitor made the world itself so they obviously scale. Hell, Progenitor's goal is to destroy all possibility and make the world only have one world. That was also what Elysium wanted, thats why he was against the revival of Bahamut. So since Origin and Progenitor made the multiverse, the 2-B cosmology scales to them. From there, we downscale. (Complete Bahamut/Origin > Half Pact Nedrick = Incomplete Bahamut/Gala Zethia = Phares!Progenitor > Void Elysium > Euden and his gang > Ely)
Thanks for the input Ant. I guess Starter and the rest can start making their pages now then?
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But the method of increase is pointed out. Elysium goes from God status, to basically going God status x 2 (Void), then God status x 3 (Reborn). It is thanks to being Reborn a dragon like Nidhogg could beat Tartarus in the first place. The caveat being: it makes no sense to have Reborn Elysium try to reach for infinity, even if he could, when he'll really end up settling for our world. The 2-B we see is good for OG Elysium and maybe Void, not that sure I see it for Reborn though when the power here is not the increase of one form, but of two (coming straight out of Void with much greater prowess).
I should also point out Void Elysium took the fight with Baha-Zethia no further than that no-sell. No incapitation happened, the fight simply ended without a clear winner either way. So we have little to work with for this. However, the teaser has flat-out established that Elysium will fight the Progenitor. What happens there is what we haven't seen yet. At worst, Elysium is still top 3 in power. We just don't know if Reborn will make that "top 3 in no particular order" or not.
The first part here is not true. Elysium first entered these timelines, then directly altered a great amount. Don't forget where he confirms some of the timelines he indeed left idle to see if civilization would fix itself. And then he doubly confirms he indeed does affect the other ones with his power. Remember: he tried from every imaginable angle to find salvation for these worlds. This means in some he'll have used all his power as overseer to fix things (and fail), in others he'll have done half, or quarter. Agreed on Progenitor/Bahamut at the end though.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Trust me, even if Reborn Ely is literally millions and novemquadrillions or even Graham's number times stronger than Void Ely, his 2-B stats wouldn't reach 2-A. Its literally infinite universes vs finite universes.
There's not even a Reborn Elysium yet and even then, Euden and Ilia could still keep up with Void Elysium anyways, even if it was very very difficult. So honestly the gap in power might not even be that big. The point is, Gala Zethia, with only half of Bahamut's power, was still able to easily outperform Euden and his whole gang against Void Ely. The only reason Zethia couldn't immediately defeat Void Ely is because the pact took its toll on her. And also, Gala Zethia should be equal to Half-Pact Nedrick, and he was fighting Phares and Beren, and Beren was the one who buffed Ely in the first place. So at best, Void Ely could be argued to be equal to Incomplete Bahamut, if not slightly lower.
Altering a timeline and watching over them =/= creating and destroying the whole thing. Besides, he never altered ALL universes all at once. If he could then he'd just wipe out all possibility to begin with and settle with a singular world, since that's what he wants. And besides he downscales from Origin anyways, that's the feat he'd benefit from. Not altering a timeline or destiny. If anything, his "feat" isn't AP- but could probably be timeline manipulation or fate manipulation. Most likely the former.
But anyways this should be reserved for a future scaling thread. We already got Ant agreeing with Starter's 2-B Dragalia cosmology proposition so the Bahamut page and other relevant ones can be made now. Unless we need more mods?
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This is the part Cytendo would decide on. If they want him to be able to reach infinity, then they will. Though, Elysium's real weakness is how his powers are limited to wherever he governs. This means the second that's not a condition anymore, what stops him really? A point of mine is, such a measure as 2-A is exactly how one would make Elysium stronger than he already is in the first place (which is what Reborn is supposed to do), or future power-ups are pointless. (Or, just, you know, remove his range's weakness).
The keyword is yet. I don't think anyone expected a Void variant before it happened, yet here we are, and now Reborn Elysium is very likely either for the next few months, or next anniv.
Ilia's own words dictated Void Elysium was but seconds away from wiping out the entire squad that was present... he'd have done it in one shot too. I'll reserve judgement on Elysium VS Bahamut/Progenitor until Elysium VS Progenitor happens, because the encounter with Baha-Zethia was very anticlimatic. This was equivalent to a supposed VS battle happening, except one of the two just throws a smokescreen and runs after cancelling an attack. I'm saying it didn't give us a good reference for a time like this, so I will hold out for something better. From what brief moment we got of Void Elysium, I am inclined to agree with your last part, though the plot is free to affect perspective by ironing out details better too.
This is true, but at the same time, how could Elysium create what was already made? It's not like he is too weak to create or destroy these places, let us remember for a moment that possibility itself created these worlds, and his interest was not to destroy them but to save. There would be no real doubt he could destroy any if he wished to. But he didn't want that. How he didn't alter them all at once is likely a direct consequence of the first thing I mentioned in this post with his reach. Either that, or coincidence, Okada seems to be trying greatly to buff him after Forgotten Truths. The plot makes it look like, though, if he actually saw a reasonable chance he would just settle with our world.
I suppose more mods could come in, though I would not argue 2-B VS 2-A when if we have to go with it I'll take 2-B. What I really want to know is if the actual profile creations can begin or not. This other stuff is my trying to future-proof the profiles for when full power forms come out. Even "possibly 2-A" for those versions would just be more fitting than a flat 2-B all throughout.
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Let me try, since it's only really me making it.
Basically, what Elysium has done, he's done at his base form. In base, he already has powers of deity status.
So, he's taken on a form, called Void, which has increased his powers fairly significantly, and is expected to get another one on top of it called Reborn which would keep the increase and then give him another significant power increase.
Dragalia is mostly about "tell, don't show" so I doubt it will go out of its way to establish he, at prime is a hard 2-A, but the idea he can reach it when thrown onto prime does not sound unreasonable when at base he already comes up closer to it than most in the 2-B pool.
Progenitor/Bahamut get the factor of being the original deities of the game's world.
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At present, what we have is vague. There's nothing concrete we have, but for that I would be ready to take "possibly 2-A" instead of just flat out. We can iron it out when he's actually established as such. If that sounds good?
What I can note, is the power increase from base to Void, then Void to Reborn is indeed significant.
For context: Nidhogg was a fairly powerful dragon, but nothing impressive. As soon as he became Reborn (from Void), he casually defeated Tartarus, an Agito (now these guys were hyped up to all be world ending threats, I want to cover them after this thread's conclusions and the profile's creations)
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Which I guess is where the impasse comes in, because as I said Dragalia is not often direct about how hard a power increase is. For what we know, peak Elysium could be 2-A worthy, but we wouldn't really know because Dragalia simply won't have established it. (To do this, he'd have to change his "millions of worlds" to "infinite worlds", which I can't see Cy being attentive enough to do even if he could do it).
What would you say factoring that: 2-B throughout or just say possibly 2-A for peak?
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