Ayyy another Nardo Speed Thread(The Lightning Round)

[Shadowbokunohero]

My current stance is against it, but if more staff members sign off on Option 3 then I'll compromise for that. Though I get the suspicion this is going to lead into discussions of V2 Raikage > Lariat, try and upgrade a ton more characters to possibly/likely Relativistic+.

i can see people attempting that but i thinks it's going to be harder to get it passed given how specific the speed is to a character that is still considered the peak of the story for 80% of it's run.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Lightning Straight is >Lariat, as it's Ay's fastest attack.

Specifically I denoted "possibly/likely Rel+ with top speeds (his Lariat can reach speeds near light speed)".

 

[GTsek]

I don't think the rating "possibly" makes sense, a concret rating would make more sense. But even so, there is no possibility that Lariat is an attack faster than Ay's top speed with v2+Shunshin. He Literally says his fastest punch. In this case, if we are going to consider a speed "possibly Rel+ with Lariat", so we should consider a concrete rating for v2: "Possibly Rel+ with Lariat, Rel+ with v2 Shunshin.".My justification for this is that Ay with v2+Shunshin can give a FTE in Sasuke with MS, Sasuke was able to easily dodge Bee's Lariat which also scales to "Possibly Rel+" like Ay. This is concrete proof that v2 is much faster than v1 Lariat. The Sasuke who faced and reacted to Lariat was nerfed because of the fight with Itachi and use the 3 tomoe Sharingan, already against Ay he was 100% and use MS. So that's it, if the Lariat is going to have a "possibly", then the v2+Shunshin must have a concrete rating.

 

[Deceived3596]

No, we aren't giving Ay a concrete rating for scaling above a level of speed that's only assumed possibly true. It doesn't work that way. You'd have to argue against the possibly rating itself before you can make any concrete scaling chains from scaling above Lariat.

 

[GTsek]

So at the at least "Possibly Rel+ with Lariat, higher with v2 Shunshin" or something like that. Arc's note implies to the reader that Lariat is Ay's faster attack, which is false. We have to be correct first of all. (I'm not saying this was Arc's intent, just that the note seems confusing to me.)

 

[Godernet]

I personally am fine with a possibly or likely rating if needed for now. I do have some arguments that could make a solid rating make more sense but those arguments would need another CRT passed for that to happen.

 

[Godernet]

Assuming everything you're saying is true, the actual scaling chain would look something like this.

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic with V1, higher with V2, Relativistic+ with Top Speeds [Insert explanation about Ay's/Bee's top speeds, mention amps which increase this level of speed].

Anything else would look visually horrible since you'd be reference multiple transformations, and abilities, multiple times over, it would be needlessly long, needlessly confusing and just plain ******* ugly.

Pretty much this but Relativistic+ with Lariat. V2 vs Lariat is rather contentious and would probably need to be discussed in a scaling thread.

 

[Deceived3596]

Ay's speed section is going to look so ******* horrible omg.

Like if you correctly categorize everything, it would make that entire section visually ass.

 

[GTsek]

Assuming everything you're saying is true, the actual scaling chain would look something like this.

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic with V1, higher with V2, Relativistic+ with Top Speeds [Insert explanation about Ay's/Bee's top speeds, mention amps which increase this level of speed].

Anything else would look visually horrible since you'd be reference multiple of the same transformations and abilities, multiple times over, it would be needlessly long, needlessly confusing and just plain ******* ugly.

You are wrong, and I will not elaborate.

I personally am fine with a possibly or likely rating if needed for now. I do have some arguments that could make a solid rating make more sense but those would need to get CRTs passed for that to happen.

Fair.

 

[Godernet]

tbf Naruto speed scaling is all over the place in general rn.

I still can't figure out where the sub-relativistic scaling even comes from. I think it's from the Raikage's lightning cloak but I'm not sure and the only calcs I see are the MHS+ ones, a Relativistic Madara calc, and the FTL light fang.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Being faster than a possibly rating doesn’t give you a concrete rating. That isn’t how this works lmao. If someone is possibly Mach 1, and you’re faster than them, you are only possibly at least Mach 1. The rating doesn’t magically become concrete

 

[GTsek]

tbf Naruto speed scaling is all over the place in general rn.

I still can't figure out where the sub-relativistic scaling even comes from. I think it's from the Raikage's lightning cloak but I'm not sure and the only calcs I see are the MHS+ ones, a Relativistic Madara calc, and the FTL light fang.

The profiles are crap, but as far as I remember, when was the Thread updated (I think in 2021) the MHS+ ratings came from either a Haku mach 1.3k calculation or multipliers about any of the High Hypersonic calculations. For some reason Haku's calculation wasn't put on the back page, but I remember it being accepted in the thread.

Probably the "Sub-Rel" of the verse currently must come from the multipliers of the first gate of the Guy, however, we have this calculation:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...akashi_Intercepts_Kakuzu's_Zaps,_KT's_Version

Which was accepted in this thread:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/kakashi-speed-calculation-revision.133326/page-1

Result Mach 15k Sub-Rel. But it has not yet been applied even on the calculations page, as we had an agreement to wait for the AP revisions to make the speed revisions, though the US69 is gone and the threads have stagnant. A new scaling thread is probably needed, based on the Lariat and this calculation

 

[Testarossa002]

tbf Naruto speed scaling is all over the place in general rn.

I still can't figure out where the sub-relativistic scaling even comes from. I think it's from the Raikage's lightning cloak but I'm not sure and the only calcs I see are the MHS+ ones, a Relativistic Madara calc, and the FTL light fang.

This should be the false darkness feat
And gate amp
And I've been told by US96 and I think Tracer that the relativistic feat is wrong
You're right though
Ordinarily we'll see something like "Guy and those who scale to him are treated to be 5x the highest MHS+ calc"
But nothing is there

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The relativistic Madara feat got removed from the verse page forever ago. I removed it. Now idk if I took it off profiles cuz I think back then Slayer and co we’re about to revise speed so I figured I’d just wait until they did that

 

[Damage3245]

The relativistic Madara feat got removed from the verse page forever ago. I removed it. Now idk if I took it off profiles cuz I think back then Slayer and co we’re about to revise speed so I figured I’d just wait until they did that

That might be important to sort out, as one of the supporting reasonings given by the OP is that the Relativistic Madara feat provides some consistency.

If that feat is gone... That means there is nothing higher than Massively Hypersonic+ that these characters scale to, which casts doubt on a Rel+ rating.

 

[Godernet]

The relativistic Madara feat got removed from the verse page forever ago. I removed it. Now idk if I took it off profiles cuz I think back then Slayer and co we’re about to revise speed so I figured I’d just wait until they did that

its still on One-eyed Six Paths Madara, Minato's reactions, 8th gate guy, and Juubito's profiles at least.

does the calc need to be redone?

 

[Godernet]

That might be important to sort out, as one of the supporting reasonings given by the OP is that the Relativistic Madara feat provides some consistency.

those characters with the relativistic rating should be being downscaled from One Eyed Six Paths Madara in all honesty.

is there any reason One Eyed Six Paths Madara wasn't given a speed rating relative to SOSP Naruto and Sasuke even though he was the one with light fang and fighting them albeit losing?

 

[Damage3245]

those characters with the relativistic rating should be being downscaled from One Eyed Six Paths Madara in all honesty.

is there any reason One Eyed Six Paths Madara wasn't given a speed rating relative to SOSP Naruto and Sasuke even though he was the one with light fang and fighting them albeit losing?

Sasuke blitzed One-Eyed Madara IIRC.

 

[Godernet]

Sasuke blitzed One-Eyed Madara IIRC.

this?

idk if I'd call that a blitz since Madara was not at all intending to fight Sasuke there and He did still swap hands with SOSP Naruto earlier too

Topic for another thread I guess.

 

[Halkum145]

If that feat is gone... That means there is nothing higher than Massively Hypersonic+ that these characters scale to, which casts doubt on a Rel+ rating.

thanks to the gate 1 multiplier we have a sub rel rating

 

[Halkum145]

If that feat is gone... That means there is nothing higher than Massively Hypersonic+ that these characters scale to, which casts doubt on a Rel+ rating.

In 80% of the universe, the speed of this character is shown at the peaks. Also, even mifune, empowered by naruto, reached ls attack speeds.

 

[Damage3245]

In 80% of the universe, the speed of this character is shown at the peaks. Also, even mifune, empowered by naruto, reached ls attack speeds.

Nobody cares about Mifune.

 

[Halkum145]

Nobody cares about Mifune

?? I presented an argument about consistency and that's your answer?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Following I guess

 

[Halkum145]

we have ls jutsu's given before raikage in the universe

 

[Damage3245]

?? I presented an argument about consistency and that's your answer?

It's not an argument for consistency to say "A character exists who has a lightspeed attack." There is no relationship between the characters at all.

 

[Halkum145]

It's not an argument for consistency to say "A character exists who has a lightspeed attack." There is no relationship between the characters at all.

Didn't anyone tell you that raikage was the fastest character in verse for a long time?

 

[Halkum145]

there are ls feats in the verse and raikage is mentioned as the fastest person in the verse for a long time. and in raikage he was said to be using a jutsu close to the speed of light how is that inconsistent

 

[Godernet]

It's not an argument for consistency to say "A character exists who has a lightspeed attack." There is no relationship between the characters at all.

I mean there are other characters near Mifune that fire off projectiles at similar speeds including Killer Bee's full Bijuu transformation which should still be slower than the Raikage.

I really don't think random Hyuga clan members with Nine-tailed cloaks would tag Ay when KCM Naruto struggled immensely to avoid Ay.

 

[Halkum145]

Following I guess

If you have time, can you consider all these arguments and counter-arguments "for now"?

 

[Halkum145]

Naruto can't control his chakra and while he's in base form, he dodges a few photons and they explained this as if it was a normal thing. I'm not claiming ftl but implying that the speed of light in the universe isn't that fast.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean there are other characters near Mifune that fire off projectiles at similar speeds including Killer Bee's full Bijuu transformation which should still be slower than the Raikage.

I really don't think random Hyuga clan members with Nine-tailed cloaks would tag Ay when KCM Naruto struggled immensely to avoid Ay.

Those projectiles aren't necessarily travelling at the same speed. They're shown hitting the target together, but there's no way of telling if they travelled at the same speed to gt there.

 

[Damage3245]

there are ls feats in the verse and raikage is mentioned as the fastest person in the verse for a long time. and in raikage he was said to be using a jutsu close to the speed of light how is that inconsistent

There is no statement for "The Raikage is the fastest person in the Universe".

 

[Halkum145]

There is no statement for "The Raikage is the fastest person in the Universe".

raikage's databook has a god speed statement and we have some character statement

 

[Deceived3596]

Having "god-like" speed doesn't prove you're the fastest person ever/alive, it just means you're really fast. Ichigo, in the databooks, is stated to have "god-like' speed while in Bankai during the Soul Society Arc, but is objectively slower then the likes of Yamamoto and Aizen who aren't stated to have "god-like" speed. It's just an exaggerated way to tell the viewers that X character is really fast.

I do remember there being statements that after Minato had passed Ay became known as the fastest shinobi alive, so providing those statements would be nice evidence for your claim.

 

[Godernet]

Those projectiles aren't necessarily travelling at the same speed. They're shown hitting the target together, but there's no way of telling if they travelled at the same speed to gt there.

The Panel gives the impression they all attacked together at the same time.

For the other attacks to be slower we'd have to assume Mifune fired his attack later than everyone else and his projectile caught up which isn't really implied at all. or that Mifune's attack was fired at the same time but slowed down to match the other attacks which also isn't implied to be the case.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm confused by this entire Issen conversation, Godernet are you trying to scale Lariat above Mifune's Issen, or something else entirely?.

 

[Damage3245]

The Panel gives the impression they all attacked together at the same time.

For the other attacks to be slower we'd have to assume Mifune fired his attack later than everyone else and his projectile caught up which isn't really implied at all. or that Mifune's attack was fired at the same time but slowed down to match the other attacks which also isn't implied to be the case.

It wouldn't have to be slowed down. It'd just hit its target, then be followed a microsecond later by everything else hitting the targets.

 

[Godernet]

I'm confused by this entire Issen conversation, Godernet are you trying to scale Lariat above Mifune's Issen, or something else entirely?.

In this panel Mifune fires his SOL Issen and its speed is matched by Nine tail's amped Leaf Jonin's projectiles and Killer Bee's Bijuu bomb.

Ay is faster than Bee. Practically from his own admission and through the Raikage being the fastest shinobi at this point in time which would include Bee, his brother.

It also wouldn't make sense for Jonin amped by the weakest version of Naruto's nine tails cloak (something that he distributes to at least 10,000 other shinobi) to be capable of tagging Ay when Naruto himself struggled to avoid Ay's top speeds.

 

[Godernet]

It wouldn't have to be slowed down. It'd just hit its target, then be followed a microsecond later by everything else hitting the targets.

ah I see what you're saying.

but even then looking closer at the panel Temari's attack reached the Juubi's hands before Issen does.