At Least Universal DMC and more.....

[Ogbunabali]

I mean, at this point, I don't mind if this thread is closed, since DMC threads never go anywhere. But everything Matthew said right now has been false, and that warrants no "explanation section" on the DMC verse page.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

No way in hell this thread should be closed because one person basically said "no".

As far as administration goes, yes, he can close the thread, bringing or not anything new to the table. It would just be nice to add on something to prove the point, since the OP had a hard work to put together all the lore stuff i believe, but i believe that is optional here.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

If i remember correctly, the old thread that justifies the Don't open up discussions about Mundus creating a Universe was using some knowledge of DMC manga that was expaculation of Arkham, that was recently denied by Hideaki Itsuno (for the second time actually)

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the counter-arguments to Matthew's points please? Neither of us have enough free time to read through almost 400 posts.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Read my post right below Matthew's, it summarizes everything so far, except the Argosax stuff.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I'll be using DarkGrath's summary (which you can read on my wall).

>Mundus' feat is at best 4-A and likely not even that since Dante and Mundus are literally standing on "space" as if all that happened were a filter put through the room, and the stars flicker and spin which puts heavy doubt on them being real.

There is no "sky rotation" as many people have claimed, as you can see here (https://youtu.be/0jvwzkwmFn0?t=212) when Mundus flies away. It is purely the rotation of the camera.

...Both Mundus and Dante are also visibly floating in the air. The people who have used the illusion argument have claimed that they are standing on solid ground, so it must be an illusion, but this is quite a blatant lie.

>All the "Merge the worlds" feats involve portals and prep time and not once do they relate to fusing universes. That is pure wank.

The assumption that has been made about DMC2 for a long time regarding Arius' motivations was that Arius was simply attempting to open a portal to let Argosax into the human world, however, this not actually the case. As shown in this scan (http://i.imgur.com/VLeQLu3.jpg) it explicitly refers to Argosax as "The Evil" and states that his plan coming to fruition would cause the demon world to consume the human world. This is further backed up by statements made by Arius in these three screenshots ( https://imgur.com/oi9YX5J , https://imgur.com/8AFyXTQ , https://imgur.com/B6LN3wt ). Arius explictly states that his plan being successful would cause the world to "revert to it's original form". Therefore, his motivations are clear and we've got a feat for Argosax.

>The Nightmare feat is a literal dream-world and also at best he only replicates the island.

There are many, many arguments to be made about why this is not an illusion (as has been discussed many times) but this summary has already gone on far too long and I know you're busy. The most major one is in the DMC Enemy Files. It states "When you are surrounded in its gel-like form, you will be teleported into an evil dimension. You must defeat the evil spirits that rule the dimension. The evil is a reflection of Dante's trauma that rests in his subconscious." It is very blatantly clear from that paragraph that the Evil Dimension is an entirely real, separate dimension and that only the appearance of the demons is an illusion (a point that I'm certainly not debating against, as you mainly fight already long dead bosses within the Evil Dimension). Just like the Mirror World, the Evil Dimension is shown to have a sun in it and either Mundus or Nightmare (who was made by Mundus) created it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mundus' name is literally allegorical. It meaning "World" and using that to say that Mundus created a universe is the biggest non-sequitur I have ever seen.

And yeah? So what if Nightmare created a dimension. It has no sun at all. We just see a hole in the sky, and the fact that it is a reflection of Dante's subconsciou and created by a nightmare demon is strong evidence that it is a dream-world and not a solid parallel dimension.

Is this really the best evidence? All that you're getting at best is 4-A and it's still a giant outlier.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Mundus' name is literally allegorical. It meaning "World" and using that to say that Mundus created a universe is the biggest non-sequitur I have ever seen.
And yeah? So what if Nightmare created a dimension. It has no sun at all. We just see a hole in the sky, and the fact that it is a reflection of Dante's subconscious and created by a nightmare Demon is strong evidence that it is a dream-world and not a solid parallel dimension.

So your evidence for Nightmare's dimension being an illusion comes from its name? And you say Mundus's is allegorical?

I hate calling hypocrisy, but I have no other options.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

- First, yeah, I agree that he created a dimension, by the points we have here, but the size of said dimension is a bit controversial, I'll explain why. We see what appears to be stars, but in the very next scenario, we don't see anything at all, just a dark space where Mundus and Dante fight. Now, you can tell me that they went to a space were they weren't visible, but this would be a huge MFTL+ Flight Speed feat since we see stars above them right before they start to fly, and this kind of speed is...well, outliersh. To consider the feat as at least 4-A, we need to be sure that those stars are real, but they vanished seconds later

What i'm saying is that scene is vague af, basically, but I agree that is a Dimension Creation feat, we have a calc that don't take the stars as part of dimension, just the size of the place, and it was around 4-C, unsure if it is relevant but just to let you guys know

Okay, next, we have the 3-A thing. While I do agree with the names part, we have to consider that being stated as Universe doesn't mean 3-A directly since this value is linked to the size of the observable universe, our universe, ther ones in fiction can have different sizes and then different ratings here in this wiki. Also, we have this: "Mundus is actually a Latin term refering to the 'vile world' or the imagined universe."

Mundus doesn't mean directly "Universe", and "imagined universe" supports my ideia of not being enough proof to say that he really should scale to 3-A, taking into account the actual and observable size of our real universe to a "imagined" one. Also, "Mundus" can also mean "Vile World", so...what should we choose ? We can't say for sure which one.

I agree that Kamiya's posts should be analized on a case-by-case basis, and yes, I believe that in this specific post he has spoken seriously, but this goes into the first question: he was referring to the creation of Mundus in that scene, right? Still not sure that this is a 3-A feat based on observable universe, if we take into consideration the stars on the background, it would be a 4-A feat by our wiki standards, a alternate Universe in fiction can have any size, saying that it is universe-sized without more evidence is well, wrong

I'll quote Matt: "Furthermore, even if it was confirmed in game that this is a dimension created by Mundus, there is absolutely nothing that indicates it warrants a Universe level rating.

Why? Look at the background and you'll see stars. That's it. Stars alone do not indicate that the dimension is universe sized. In order for that to be the case, we need to see Galaxies as well, and even then that typically only wields Multi-Galaxy level.

If this feat is to be accepted, it needs to be treated as we treat all other starry dimension feats: Multi-Solar System level. "

Note that I'm not saying that it isn't a good feat, I'm just saying that it isn't a 3-A feat, okay ? I believe it could be around 4-C (by that calc) to 4-A (if the stars are real), i'm unsure what you guys are going to decide

Next we have Argosax feat, and well, even more problems

First and for most, we already saw many times in the series that "merging the worlds", "separating the worlds" and etc are usually done by opening portals. And we also have the language, and in DMC2 many things are metaphorical

it explicitly refers to Argosax as "The Evil" and states that his plan coming to fruition would cause the demon world to consume the human world.

Arius explictly states that his plan being successful would cause the world to "revert to it's original form".

The game right at the beggining states that the World was overrun by demons and that Sparda wipe them out, basically saying that the demon world is "consuming ours" and that everything "will be reverted to it's orginal form" doesn't necessarily mean that we are talking about that part of the DMC3 manga, but about the part in the story when the demons ruled over the humans, and this is not the only part where the language in DMC2 is vague. Also the statement about the demon world being infinite is also vague, it doesn't directly points it's size, we shouldn't take 100% literall, see:

"The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness"

We see many statements that are similar to this one, and they aren't enough proof to say that a dimension is infinite in size

So basically, it is a "possibly 3-A" feat if we consider that Argosax is reverting the world into the "manga's state" (which is supported by the "orginal" quote) and even if he was going to do that, we don't have timeframe and we don't know if he can do it by himself or if he needs prep time to do it, but it is possible that he is reverting to the "Sparda era state", one is 3-A, the other...well, just a portal

For the rest...I believe I agree with everything about Nightmare, the illusion part is about the enemies that you fight there, not the place itself, and i'm unsure about The Savior dimensions being around 4-A, but it doesn't matter, he scales to Sparda DT Dante in this wiki, if this Dante becomes Tier 4/3, he will aswell so yeah

 

[Ogbunabali]

Mundus' name is literally allegorical. It meaning "World" and using that to say that Mundus created a universe is the biggest non-sequitur I have ever seen.
Well this is both false and a strawman.

And yeah? So what if Nightmare created a dimension. It has no sun at all. We just see a hole in the sky, and the fact that it is a reflection of Dante's subconsciou and created by a nightmare demon is strong evidence that it is a dream-world and not a solid parallel dimension.
There is a sky with clouds and a ball of light behind them.

Is this really the best evidence? All that you're getting at best is 4-A and it's still a giant outlier.
It's quite clearly not.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

And yeah? So what if Nightmare created a dimension. It has no sun at all. We just see a hole in the sky, and the fact that it is a reflection of Dante's subconsciou and created by a nightmare demon is strong evidence that it is a dream-world and not a solid parallel dimension.

I agree with Matt here. As far as i saw, there was no explanation to why Nightmare's dimension would give 4 tier to Mundus

Altough that, the only things given life by Dante's subconscious are the enemies inside, not the space, so... And there is still the matter of the Mirror World, wich is indeed a dimension

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the most likely assumption of what Mundus did was a teleportation to another dimension. Not taking Dante to a universe he randomly farts.

Literally Mundus needs prep-time to open a portal between the Human World and Demon World. Everyone does. Such limitations are irreconcilable with universal characters.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Also the most likely assumption of what Mundus did was a teleportation to another dimension. Not taking Dante to a universe he randomly farts.
Literally Mundus needs prep-time to open a portal between the Human World and Demon World. Everyone does. Such limitations are irreconcilable with universal characters.

Already been debunked.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

Already been debunked.

Just saying instead of transcribing or pointing it up isn't going to help the thread

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

I have literally posted this twice already. You can read it.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if everybody try to be polite towards Matthew, and don't accuse him of lying or similar. Just calmly and respectfully explain why you think his points are misinformed, and you might be able to convince him. Calling each other names never leads anywhere constructive.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

Literally Mundus needs prep-time to open a portal between the Human World and Demon World. Everyone does. Such limitations are irreconcilable with universal characters.

And when that happens? Because he was dead until shortly before the fight...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The universe name thing imo isn't really a good argument for me either, but for slightly different reasons than Matt. It just means he has spatial manipulation. The dude who's name is fire isn't the concept of fire or anything. He just has fire manipulation.

Also I feel like we should be far stricter on these types of feats. We'd need direct in-game information of the realm being an actual place that they control instead of just a random fighting place. Forgive me for using an example I know, but we know Magolor and his control over Another Dimension is legit because we know a lot about Another Dimension. It's not just a random area but something completely confirmed to be well...Another Dimension.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

- First, yeah, I agree that he created a dimension, by the points we have here, but the size of said dimension is a bit controversial, I'll explain why. We see what appears to be stars, but in the very next scenario, we don't see anything at all, just a dark space where Mundus and Dante fight. Now, you can tell me that they went to a space were they weren't visible, but this would be a huge MFTL+ Flight Speed feat since we see stars above them right before they start to fly, and this kind of speed is...well, outliersh. To consider the feat as at least 4-A, we need to be sure that those stars are real, but they vanished seconds later

What i'm saying is that scene is vague af, basically, but I agree that is a Dimension Creation feat, we have a calc that don't take the stars as part of dimension, just the size of the place, and it was around 4-C, unsure if it is relevant but just to let you guys know

Okay, next, we have the 3-A thing. While I do agree with the names part, we have to consider that being stated as Universe doesn't mean 3-A directly since this value is linked to the size of the observable universe, our universe, ther ones in fiction can have different sizes and then different ratings here in this wiki. Also, we have this: "Mundus is actually a Latin term refering to the 'vile world' or the imagined universe."

Mundus doesn't mean directly "Universe", and "imagined universe" supports my ideia of not being enough proof to say that he really should scale to 3-A, taking into account the actual and observable size of our real universe to a "imagined" one. Also, "Mundus" can also mean "Vile World", so...what should we choose ? We can't say for sure which one.

I agree that Kamiya's posts should be analized on a case-by-case basis, and yes, I believe that in this specific post he has spoken seriously, but this goes into the first question: he was referring to the creation of Mundus in that scene, right? Still not sure that this is a 3-A feat based on observable universe, if we take into consideration the stars on the background, it would be a 4-A feat by our wiki standards, a alternate Universe in fiction can have any size, saying that it is universe-sized without more evidence is well, wrong

I'll quote Matt: "Furthermore, even if it was confirmed in game that this is a dimension created by Mundus, there is absolutely nothing that indicates it warrants a Universe level rating.

Why? Look at the background and you'll see stars. That's it. Stars alone do not indicate that the dimension is universe sized. In order for that to be the case, we need to see Galaxies as well, and even then that typically only wields Multi-Galaxy level.

If this feat is to be accepted, it needs to be treated as we treat all other starry dimension feats: Multi-Solar System level. "

Note that I'm not saying that it isn't a good feat, I'm just saying that it isn't a 3-A feat, okay ? I believe it could be around 4-C (by that calc) to 4-A (if the stars are real), i'm unsure what you guys are going to decide

Next we have Argosax feat, and well, even more problems

First and for most, we already saw many times in the series that "merging the worlds", "separating the worlds" and etc are usually done by opening portals. And we also have the language, and in DMC2 many things are metaphorical

it explicitly refers to Argosax as "The Evil" and states that his plan coming to fruition would cause the demon world to consume the human world.

Arius explictly states that his plan being successful would cause the world to "revert to it's original form".

The game right at the beggining states that the World was overrun by demons and that Sparda wipe them out, basically saying that the demon world is "consuming ours" and that everything "will be reverted to it's orginal form" doesn't necessarily mean that we are talking about that part of the DMC3 manga, but about the part in the story when the demons ruled over the humans, and this is not the only part where the language in DMC2 is vague. Also the statement about the demon world being infinite is also vague, it doesn't directly points it's size, we shouldn't take 100% literall, see:

"The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness"

We see many statements that are similar to this one, and they aren't enough proof to say that a dimension is infinite in size

So basically, it is a "possibly 3-A" feat if we consider that Argosax is reverting the world into the "manga's state" (which is supported by the "orginal" quote) and even if he was going to do that, we don't have timeframe and we don't know if he can do it by himself or if he needs prep time to do it, but it is possible that he is reverting to the "Sparda era state", one is 3-A, the other...well, just a portal

For the rest...I believe I agree with everything about Nightmare, the illusion part is about the enemies that you fight there, not the place itself, and i'm unsure about The Savior dimensions being around 4-A, but it doesn't matter, he scales to Sparda DT Dante in this wiki, if this Dante becomes Tier 4/3, he will aswell so yeah

This is based on Dark Grath's summary only, if there are any other feats, please tell me

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

The universe name thing imo isn't really a good argument for me either, but for slightly different reasons than Matt. It just means he has spatial manipulation.

Wait, what? Where do you get that from? What way of thinking got you there?

 

[Dienomite22]

The universe name thing isn't a main argument, it's just a backing point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Agreed with Cal. We literally had a thread about being more strict with dimension creation feats in the past, and it's exactly because of this. People here are simply assuming an interpretation that is the more likely in their heads and defending it with tooth and nail, whistle completely ignoring the fact that there is no confirmation about it happening anywhere at all, that it is a massive outlier, that the power it attributes to Mundus is irreconcilable with the actual plot, and that all that happens is that we are transported to just a place. And no context is given.

Finally, just copypasting "debunked already!" doesn't answer anything. If the reply is insufficient and not at all conclusive to the discussion then simply saying that you have already replied to a strong argument gives you nothing.

The standards that fans of Devil May Cry fans apply to the series is a joke compared to what they should be. We need to be more unbiased people.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Still waiting for this to be addressed.

The Actual Feat
The only feat that is 3-A that's being discussed is the Mundus feat. And by process of elimination it's definitely creation.

• It's not teleportation because this is teleportation, and even Munuds himself says that in the human world they are weaker, as well as the demon world not having a sky like that, means that it's not teleportation.

• It's also not illusions because the fight can't physically happen in that space they were in, if you've played the game you would know what I mean here is a full fight you can watch it yourself if you haven't already, and not to mention the room they were in doesn't have a scratch on it when we see Dante in the aftermath, which again would be physically impossible if it was an illusion.
  • The sky rotating is also just a weird camera spin, not the area itself moving, which you can quite clearly see when Mundus flies up and the sky behind him isn't rotating at all.
  • There is also no "air burst" when he jumps, that's blatantly false. If someone sees an "air burst" there feel free to show me a scan of where, because I don't see anything.
  • As well as when he creates the dimension both him and Dante float in the air, unlike some people that have claimed they were standing feet flat which is just wrong.

• The support for this is with the tweet as well as in the DMC 3 manga where it is stated that their names have more of a literal meanings, rather then it being for show. And Mundus's name meaning "World", "Universe" or "Void".

All of these together make it pretty clear that it's a creation feat.

Supporting Feats
Now for the supporting feats, well there aren't that much and these would only be supporting feats if the 3-A is accepted.

• The first one is the Mirror World one. Self explanatory. It was powered by Mundus and it takes you to a mirror version of the world.
• The other one is the Nightmare one. Where it teleports you to another dimension. This one is kinda iffy, since the point of conjecture was whether it teleported you, or just showed you illusions. Well here you can see the blob go down and you literally fall in this dimension, and when you finish fighting in there, you go inside a portal and you rise up from the blob.
  • In the enemy files it says this
    
    "When you are surrounded in its gel-like form, you will be teleported into an evil dimension. You must defeat the evil spirits that rule the dimension. The evil is a reflection of Dante's trauma that rests in his subconscious."
    
    Which makes a clear distinction that the teleportation to the dimension is one thing, and that the evils just rule the dimension, which are the traumas of Dante.
• And the last one are the dice games in DMC4, they are inside Sparda and they are powered by his power and they send you to different realities. Well again this one is kinda iffy but if the 3-A is accepted then it wouldn't be. One of the points brought up against this was that Sanctus is suddenly 3-A as well as Nero, but that's not really how it works. Just because they draw power from a very large source doesn't mean that they possess all that power, that's just silly.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

The standards that fans of Devil May Cry fans apply to the series is a joke compared to what they should be. We need to be more unbiased people.

Being salty isn't going to help neither.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Matthew Schroeder

You're literally just saying "no it's not true".

We already backed up the feat being creation and provided the reasons why instead of just saying "because we said so", you're the one not providing a counter-argument and just accusing us of being bias.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew & Cal

Thank you for helping to solve this issue.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Matt, weren't you the first person to claim that the storm in the fight with Echidna is 100% created by her, even though there's no context for that either?

Also, you copypasting the same deadbeat arguments w/o countering your opponents' counterpoints doesn't answer anything either.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Antvasima

I mean this with respect, READ THE THREAD and don't just take Matthew's word when he's being extremely dismissive about this.He's going to say "this was already debunked on previous threads" but don't blindely believe it, this thread brings up a lotta new info Matthew fails to address which can't be outta of nothing but bias against the verse seeing as we already gave him the counter points to him personally on his wall and correct Matthew's previously thought to be correct points

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The universe name thing isn't a main argument, it's just a backing point.

While I do agree with the names part, we have to consider that being stated as Universe doesn't mean 3-A directly since this value is linked to the size of the observable universe, our universe, the ones in fiction can have different sizes and then different ratings here in this wiki. Also, we have this: "Mundus is actually a Latin term refering to the 'vile world' or the imagined universe."

Mundus doesn't mean directly "Universe", and "imagined universe" supports my ideia of not being enough proof to say that he really should scale to 3-A, taking into account the actual and observable size of our real universe to a "imagined" one. Also, "Mundus" can also mean "Vile World", so...what should we choose ? We can't say for sure which one.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Stop this. Argosax has shown universal feat which LITERALLY scales to mundus since they are equal. Idk how these debunks universal arguments when Matthews arguments does not coherently debunk the stuff that has been proven by scans and statements.

 

[Antvasima]

Being salty isn't going to help neither.

This is also true.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What universal feat has Argosax shown? Is this part of the universe fusion thing?

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

Stop this. Argosax has shown universal feat which LITERALLY scales to mundus since they are equal. Idk how these debunks universal arguments when Matthews arguments does not coherently debunk the stuff that has been proven by scans and statements.

Guys, this is getting out of control. You can't ask the staff members to be polite nor to judge you fairly if you don't do so yourselves

 

[Maxnumb231]

What universal feat has Argosax shown? Is this part of the universe fusion thing?

Yes. If u have any debunk arguments please elaborate on how it either being an outlier or hyperbolic. If not then it should be massive upgrade for them.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Argosax didn't shown any universal feats, most of it is vague language and even if we do consider that he's plans are to bring the original form of the world, we don't have timeframe or confirmation that he's going to do by himself and without any prep time

I can have plans of busting the moon, doesn't mean I'm 5-C

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

My apologies, but I do not have enough free time or knowledge about this subject. I usually have to rely on the other staff members for more complicated evaluations.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

KEep in mind that out of respect for Toshiohex's politeness, I do want to help you guys and I'm going to be as respectful as possible on this thread, even if I'm not treated the same in turn. Even if I disagree with his arguments, I don't want to disrespect anyone with that amount of niceness by ruining the precedent he started.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I mean people get heated up and start goes unpolite after seeing Mashu comments above.

@Max

You are the one who gonna start the shitshow so stop it.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Argosax didn't shown any universal feats, most of it is vague language and even if we do consider that he's plans are to bring the original form of the world, we don't have timeframe or confirmation that he's going to do by himself and without any prep time

I can have plans of busting the moon, doesn't mean I'm 5-C

You're ignoring the context here. Argosax has been stated multiple times consistently in the game and the guidebook to say he is merging the two worlds. Heck if anything it has already been merged and it was only stopped because dante defeated argosax. Idk how this debunksthe argument with valid response. Wdym he needed help? U dont need to look into off screen to say he needed or helpor not , even though argosax is doing it himself and this is argosax with just 3 arcana seals being used.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

What universal feat has Argosax shown? Is this part of the universe fusion thing?

And this one is about a sealed Argosax being able to fuse the Demon and Human Worlds, that as stated in the beginning of the thread, are separate universes themselves.