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At Least Universal DMC and more continued

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@Kep -- I think I agree with what you're saying if you're just iffy about Tier 2, but I don't know why people are talking about timelines at the moment anyway; the two universes are obviously separate timelines in concurrence with each other. But just because it might be Tier 2 doesn't discount Tier 3.

@Konaguna -- Big difference between articulation and editorializing. The former can entail actual evidence and such; the latter implies mostly opinion. Your crude employment of the latter is not doing your side's case any favors.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me a single, simple, universally applicable, well-sourced explanation that lines up with and illuminates the facts while relying on as little subjective definitions as possible better than mine does.
 
I doubt the Demon World and the Human World are at all separate timelines, considering that they're separated by a "thin veil" (as described on both the DMC3 manga and the DMC1 guidebook), and Yamato, with 3-D Spatial Manipulation, can cut through the veil between both worlds. So it's far more likely they are simply neighbouring dimensions.
 
Konaguna said:
NAH bruh you just not getting
Feats>>>>>Statements

DMC feats like consistently below Planetary, mundus feat has been debunk more times than I have insulted someone here and you k ke that's a lot.

Y'all trynna change feats into something they ain't cuz of statements that go against em
Click to expand...
that's not a rebuttal to why argosax FEAT shouldn't be allowed. you're appealing your own emotions and say "feats>statements" depending on what context then yes feats>statements.

No mod here has even deliberately debunk "WoG clarification" from kamiya and resorts to "troll answers" when it is irrelevant and not a good argument to begin with. but yet the same feat that mundus created would inherrently make him ATLEAST 4-C and higher characters would scale to this. Someone already explained why that feat would be coirrelated to AP if anything.
 
in fact here who's so deliberatelyt hate upgrading DMC does not know that argosax feat was inherently being more of what argosax was doing and it is being cleared by the statements of arius and the guidebook itself. it's like saying "we need to see two universe outside being merged" that's an association fallacy.
 
YOu realize a source is either credible or not, what you're doing is just cherry picking so you can browse like you was in some shopping mall choosing which bean soup you gon eat tonight and which you ain't even gon look at.

Point is, the source has to be fully credible and kamiya ain't, it's not up you to proclaim what is and isn't it's what he does himself
 
@Kep -- I appreciate the attempt at a polite and well-though case, but are you going for a DB Super sort of thing or what? If so, that doesn't line up with a Samsara key item's description of the Demon World having its own space-time continuum. Or how only the Mirror and Underworld began to collapse upon Mundus' defeat, al la Menace from Dawn of Sorrow.

@Other -- We don't even need WoG. It just helps. Best not attack strawmen, even if they're the only thing you're up to tackle.
 
So I am reading through the first chapter in the manga and it say that "The world was born of Darkness" and then split into the Human and Demon World. Never once is the word Universe ever brought up from what I can see. So I guess my question is why are we assuming World means Universe when the word Universe is never brought up or mentioned?
 
What do you mean? The Japanese text says that the universe was split in two right there. Are you reading a scanlation?

  • "The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals. The two worlds existed together for what seemed like an eternity."
 
The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals. The two worlds existed together for what seemed like an eternity. But one day the lord of the dark world said... "These realms were once united, so why not rule them as one?" From that era forward, the dark fought to control the light, and the light struggled to defy the dark.

This is the official text from the manga

The human world is confirmed to be a universe by the dmc 1 guidebook
 
Opposition: The Human World and the Demon World are just two halves of the same universe!

Also Opposition: Mundus/Pluto/Argosax dividing/merging the two worlds in lore just means closing a portal between universes!

Still Opposition: Well, maybe there's some unspoken of Gordian Knot of physics that can make an "endless" Demon World and a finite Human World the same place to begin with but then they split up! But no character split them up or could unite them; the split just happened and Mundus/Pluto closed a portal and Argosax later tried to only open one!

Yet Still the Opposition: Stop making headcanon out of statements!
 
XenoBreaker2803 said:
So I am reading through the first chapter in the manga and it say that "The world was born of Darkness" and then split into the Human and Demon World. Never once is the word Universe ever brought up from what I can see. So I guess my question is why are we assuming World means Universe when the word Universe is never brought up or mentioned?
Click to expand...
Because it was stated demon world is infinite which automatically means its not a planetary size. Not only that the DMC2 manga uses the word "parallel world" to say different timeline which is consistent for characters saying "world" in the game.
 
@Freeman

Samsara's key only mentions a space-time rift that can be used to travel between both worlds. This is a fancy word for "portal", and even on verses which have alternate dimensions that share the same time, portals are a thing.

The DMC1 guidebook outright mentions that the worlds are separated by a "thin veil". Yamato can cut through that veil with its 3-D spatial manip. Not really two timelines, I believe.
 
The Demon World was never stated to be infinite. "Unending darkness" is nowhere near as much of a definitive statement as "infinite", and the whole context actually goes against an infinite realm, since it's about how there was loads of darkness, but even with so much darkness there still existed a portion of light.

All we can gather from this is that the Demon World dwarves the Human World in size. They are parallel universes, indeed, but are likely finite in size.
 
@Kep -- I'm trying to get the clip/picture of the item description in a bit. In the meantime, would you care to explain how your independently applicable explanation not only debunks the universal feats but also somehow explains the discrepancy I pointed out relating to the initial splitting and merging of the universes? Or why we should take your ambiguous statements as evidence for your case over my supposedly ambiguous statements for mine?
 
@Follow Doctor Freeman

I believe Kepekley23 didn't give his opinion on the 3-A stuff.
 
Konaguna said:
YOu realize a source is either credible or not, what you're doing is just cherry picking so you can browse like you was in some shopping mall choosing which bean soup you gon eat tonight and which you ain't even gon look at.
Point is, the source has to be fully credible and kamiya ain't, it's not up you to proclaim what is and isn't it's what he does himself
Click to expand...
Another false equivalence, this does not support how or why kamiya's statements are unreliable. is it because it's a trolling response? is it an outlier? is it a misclarification?

to answer those are Kamiya WAS more being cleared what mundus did which it was a feat not teleportation when no one here debunked it's a teleportation yet. The trolling comments ARE after he said mundus created the universe and the fans started toquestion and bothered him about the idea of the feat and insults people who asked every single time.
 
He just said "Universe". Not a serious comment at all.

And he already started trolling before he gave that completely unusable statement.
 
@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

Not inherently a troll answer either.

@All

Let's not talk about Kamiya on this thread, no need to mention him.
 
@Kep -- Ah, sorry, I thought you were saying that the feats in question weren't 3-A in nature due to the reasons you gave. Didn't know you meant Tier 2 stuff. My bad! The better of my two brain cells is about to blow up after today. I have my own views, but that Tier 2 stuff is for later. Focus is important.

Also, let's drop the WoG, friend and friend-with-differing opinion alike. It doesn't hurt us, but let's stick with the stuff in the media itself. The only people who need to talk about WoG are those lacking the confidence to tackle the actual feats and lore on display.
 
"Universe" ain't an answer and you know it. Shit Matthew already thoroughly debunked this years ago the exact same tbing and now it's brought back just to be denied?

Kamiya himself isn't a credible source, because he's made himself so, he gives no shit about vs debating and his answers about it are never serious, because he simply doesn't care about quote on quote "insects"
 
@ParadoxIndifferent

About "The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos." statement , if look the DMC 3 manga where is said that Demon names are literal would make absolute sense when Arius said that everything will revert to its original form (a crucible of chaos) and Argosax is called Argosax the Chaos
 
Universe is mentioned once in that entire thing and even so it say that there was in fact something before both worlds. Just that, that something contain 'unending darkness'. Which could just mean the infinite darkness that is well space? Not that theres was absolutely nothing before the split. Seem to vague to me.
 
Konaguna said:
"Universe" ain't an answer and you know it. Shit Matthew already thoroughly debunked this years ago the exact same tbing and now it's brought back just to be denied?
Kamiya himself isn't a credible source, because he's made himself so, he gives no shit about vs debating and his answers about it are never serious, because he simply doesn't care about quote on quote "insects"
Click to expand...
Thank you for being a source of reason in this thread.
 
@Kep -- I know I already cleared up my mistaking what you said, but I just scrolled up and noticed I was ninja'd by your clarification. Whoops! Yeah, I must have sounded really weird. Don't worry, I'm having too much fun giving my learned methods of debate a spin to be mad at anyone, you're good. And your bit about the Samsara was accurate (though not necessarily indicative of the Underworld having the same space-time as the Human World), but uh-oh! That description of an Astronomical Board (hover about the citation number) might affirm infinite size; not sure of the full context. Still, let's wait till after we decide that vanilla 3-A is consistent before going into all that.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for someone to give me a single, simple, universally applicable, well-sourced explanation that lines up with and illuminates the facts while relying on as little subjective definitions as possible better than my observations of apparent consistency can. And bringing up a debunking thread made during a personal hiatus I had mentioned on my wall doesn't count.
 
@XenoBreaker2903

Universe is mentioned more than once and the human world is directly refered to as universe twice once in the DMC1 guidebook or game manual (not sure) and the other in DMC2 guidebook.
 
Wasnt one of those two guidebook already proven unreliable already? And was also made by a 3rd party.

Also you mind pointing me to the chapters where Universe is mentioned again?
 
I haven't really read the thread since my last comment. 90% sure we've moved on past the Mundus stuff onto Argosax so I'll move on to that.

Keep in mind I may be far off topic to what's being discussed and this is just my response to what I gathered from my skim-through of the thread.

Argosax's feat is a thing. That much is certain. Now, whether or not he was causing it with raw power is up to debate, but that's not of the utmost importance. What is, is that even in the best case scenarios and it scales fully to Argosax, it's an outlier. And the other "feats" don't become more legit with it. Something that was debated but not accepted as universal doesn't become universal with the acceptance of a 3-A feat. And a more people scaling to this feat doesn't make it any less of an outlier. Dante beats the dude and does nothing on the level again, everything else showing far less power.

I'm going to be comparing this situation to another one that I've been through. This is the exact same reason Kirby didn't scale to Magolor when the latter was 3-A, because he didn't show similar things in his future game. The vague feats of Dark Mind, Drawcia, Marx Soul, and Galacta Knight didn't become 3-A despite arguing to be so because they weren't legit feats, similar to the supporting feats mentioned. And just like Kirby, Mundus being stated to be equal to Argosax doesn't justify it either. Many artifacts such as the Star Rod and the NOVAs were implied to be equal to the Master Crown, and Kirby best other people who maxed out the Master Crown's power, but still only Magolor was 3-A And unlike Dante, that one's consistently on a cosmic level.
 
A good chunk of info on the original downgrade thread is falsehoods and misinformation (i.e. Sidgail = Mundus, an out-of-context panel used to prove Mundus can't into planet busting, etc.). And Kamiya's tweet is not even the primary point here, I don't know why people are focused on that.
 
@Cal -- I would honestly posit that we're not objective towards Kirby, too. But that's a whole 'nuther can of worms, and I can throw any number of verses with infrequent cosmic feats that we do accept. I prefer to look at the facts, instead of using anyone's biases as a source.

Incidentally, friendly reminder that presentation matters at least as much as evidence, especially around here. Try to make a case piecemeal, over time; you're dead meat due to bias. That's why the justice system doesn't usually allow civil cases before criminal ones when a guy's being hit by both simultaneously; even if the civil one's soundly defeated, the jury for the crinimal one is biased, and the prosecutors can change dates on charges to get around alibis.

Incidentally, Mk. 2, how you been, dude? Schnee just hit me on my wall; we could talk and stuff if business isn't an issue.
 
@xenobreaker2803

1st, No guidebook was proven unreliable, third party =/= unreliable and capcom was involved with said guidebook.Second human world being called universe isn't from that guidebook.3rd, ParadoxIndifferent along with many others, already proved it was universe.
 
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