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@Paradox
What did I just say? Literally, what did I say?
What did I just say? Literally, what did I say?
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At Least Universal DMC and more continued
- Thread starter Dienomite22
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Jackythejack
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In his defense he could have been typing that before you posted it.
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@Dragonmasterxyz
Don't think he was aware of your post.
Don't think he was aware of your post.
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Mkay, I'll let it pass then.
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Just like vegeta diying to the explosion of the planet or gohan almost diying due to lava or spiderman being threatened by guns or shadow supposedly dying from falling to earth.Matthew Schroeder said:
Using obvious PIS to justify something isn't the best idea.
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I was typing this for roughly 20 minutes with several water breaks inbetween.
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@Dragon -- I hope I'm not being rude or promoting strife by saying this, but Paradox has a good point(s), and his response is comprehensive. (and he did say earlier he had a wall at the ready) I don't want to rush anyone, but I see no need to defy the logic of all these well-sourced, well-spoken, well-reasoned people when they have provided good explanations to every objection. It'd be nice if something good came of the opposition soon, but what little opposition still voicing itself is, quite frankly starting to recycle addressed points and ignore reasoning in favor of subjective projection.
Failing any fresh and sound objections, I would like to hear the opinion of some neutral parties. I want to make sure I am articulating myself well, too; big difference between just knowing a subject inside and out as opposed to being able to make oneself sensible to the undecided. Again, if there are no objections from the opposition. We are running out of space on this thread.
Failing any fresh and sound objections, I would like to hear the opinion of some neutral parties. I want to make sure I am articulating myself well, too; big difference between just knowing a subject inside and out as opposed to being able to make oneself sensible to the undecided. Again, if there are no objections from the opposition. We are running out of space on this thread.
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@Freeman
What are you talking about? Never said anything about the points he posted. Just the tone.
What are you talking about? Never said anything about the points he posted. Just the tone.
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Don't mind me, I'm just here to enjoy the show.
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It's not at all personal feelings, Paradox, it's just straight up facts. What is stated and what is shown in DMC 2 is not Universal Merging. It is your personal belief and interpretation of the statements that make it so, and then you try to pass it as unquestionable orthodox and undeniable fact itself.
It's not. It is extremely vague, the words come from an unreliable source in-universe, and in fact, all that it amounts is a lack of barriers between the realms, not their physical merging ala Shao Kahn from Mortal Kombat.
It's not. It is extremely vague, the words come from an unreliable source in-universe, and in fact, all that it amounts is a lack of barriers between the realms, not their physical merging ala Shao Kahn from Mortal Kombat.
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"Lack of barriers between the realms"
Except when it is outright stated that there is a barrier between them on the very, very first game of the entire series. Come on man, Kep talked about it not 50 posts ago.
And I get that you think my arguments are unconvicing, but a short response repeating that I'm wrong is not even close to a convincing rebuttal. Not in the slightest.
Except when it is outright stated that there is a barrier between them on the very, very first game of the entire series. Come on man, Kep talked about it not 50 posts ago.
And I get that you think my arguments are unconvicing, but a short response repeating that I'm wrong is not even close to a convincing rebuttal. Not in the slightest.
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Kepekley23 said:
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The Mundus feat is completely unclear and vague. The only thing worth discussing is Argosax, but it is far higher than the usual level of the characters.
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See, here's the thing: We know for a fact those are PIS because there are higher feats performed by these characters and their peers all the time.Tony di bugalu said:
With Devil May Cry... There really isn't. Dante has never been portrayed at the level claimed in this thread, and none of his enemies ever have been. The only exception to this rule, maybe, is Argosax, who I personally believe to have extremely unclear and vague statements and with visual implications that do not match the claimed scale of the feat.
And nevertheless, even assuming, for the sake of the argument itself, hypothetically, that he really did merge the two dimensions into one (Whatever that entails, it's never made clear or explained)... It's still a cavalier outlier. See Cal Howard's reasoning for that, again.
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... I am talking about Devil May Cry 2. Seriously, did you not pay attention to my post? Nevertheless, every. single. time. a character has attempted to quote-unquote "merge the realms" in the series it merely involved the breaking of barriers to facilitate demonic invasion.ParadoxIndifferent said:
Nothing more, nothing less. To deny this fact is to deny the games themselves.
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@Kep
Same here.
Btw, the pro-upgrade side should make another summarization with all the new topics, evidence and stuff for a new thread. This one is short of blowing up. ovo
Btw, the pro-upgrade side should make another summarization with all the new topics, evidence and stuff for a new thread. This one is short of blowing up. ovo
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Isn't that YOUR personal belief and interpretation, if it isn't back it up.I'm not coming at you or anything like that but in this thread and even in the past you openly crapped on Argosax and other God tiers because you viewed them as weak or didn't agree with tiering, this isn't an accusation or anything just taking notice of your bias against the verse and that possibly having an affect on your judgement.Matthew Schroeder said:
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@Matthew
There is absolutely zero difference between the setting on Devil May Cry 1 and Devil May Cry 2. Are you confused or something? There is a barrier between the Demon World and the Human World in the lore.
Not quite. Argosax was still mostly sealed when the world began warping on his account. It is literally a passive Reality Warping showing on his part.
There is absolutely zero difference between the setting on Devil May Cry 1 and Devil May Cry 2. Are you confused or something? There is a barrier between the Demon World and the Human World in the lore.
Not quite. Argosax was still mostly sealed when the world began warping on his account. It is literally a passive Reality Warping showing on his part.
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No other character was planning on merging the realms.Mundus wanted an invasion via portals which was shown and Argosax merging effect was shown and expanded upon in the guidebook and it was shown to not involve portalsMatthew Schroeder said:
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Anyway, going to bed now. Will check this thread after tomorrow's noon.
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I also request that the link to the next thread be placed on my wall if this one reaches 500 posts before I get home tomorrow.
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Another thread, why? People who aren't even involved in the discussion and are outright admitting to just be here to watch the circus catch fire want this to continue, why should it be a surprise. Really disappointing to see an Admin among one of them, too.
But really, another thread so we can go through another 500 posts where we'll go by the same motions yet again, explain why it's vague, clarify why it's not acceptable, explain why it's an outlier, offende one another? No thanks.
And as the cherry on top, apparently I'm now biased against Devil May Cry as a franchise and probably hate it. Why, because I don't believe Dante can blow up a universe? Because I choose to accept an outlier for what it is? Because I respect the series and the setting well enough to recognize what is being intended and depicted rather than make the character as strong as possible for a website...
I love Devil May Cry, it's among my favorite video game series of all time and I played DMC 3 like crazy back in the day... I'm not biased against the series. Rather, I'm doing my best to stay unbiased.
It's really saddening to see fanbases here on VsWiki rely to insulting and dismissing anyone who disagrees with their attempted upgrades as being "biased" or "haters". This is the most toxical aspect of any fandom and people here revel in it.
But really, another thread so we can go through another 500 posts where we'll go by the same motions yet again, explain why it's vague, clarify why it's not acceptable, explain why it's an outlier, offende one another? No thanks.
And as the cherry on top, apparently I'm now biased against Devil May Cry as a franchise and probably hate it. Why, because I don't believe Dante can blow up a universe? Because I choose to accept an outlier for what it is? Because I respect the series and the setting well enough to recognize what is being intended and depicted rather than make the character as strong as possible for a website...
I love Devil May Cry, it's among my favorite video game series of all time and I played DMC 3 like crazy back in the day... I'm not biased against the series. Rather, I'm doing my best to stay unbiased.
It's really saddening to see fanbases here on VsWiki rely to insulting and dismissing anyone who disagrees with their attempted upgrades as being "biased" or "haters". This is the most toxical aspect of any fandom and people here revel in it.
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In Matt's defense, having to deal with this multiple times kinda has him very...jaded with this topic, to say the least. Though, yes, he could definitely be less harsh. I mean, I think 3-A DMC is a joke too (no offense, guys), but I'm trying to be a single polite as I possibly can out of respect to the opposing side, especially Toshiohex.
3-A is a pretty massive upgrade though, guys. You gotta remember that. DMC or not, a verse that is known for being tier 6 having to get to 3-A will be nothing to glance over. It's even a big deal when tier 4s do it. It's going to take a lot of evidence to convince people. If you really wanna quiet Matt, find an explicit quote that says something very similar to Argosax's power being the cause of the fusion. This is what Azzy asked me every single time when I tried to upgrade Zelda. If you can't find anything saying that, then imo it's a wrap. If you can, I mean, it would still be an outlier, but it would quiet the bit about it being false.
3-A is a pretty massive upgrade though, guys. You gotta remember that. DMC or not, a verse that is known for being tier 6 having to get to 3-A will be nothing to glance over. It's even a big deal when tier 4s do it. It's going to take a lot of evidence to convince people. If you really wanna quiet Matt, find an explicit quote that says something very similar to Argosax's power being the cause of the fusion. This is what Azzy asked me every single time when I tried to upgrade Zelda. If you can't find anything saying that, then imo it's a wrap. If you can, I mean, it would still be an outlier, but it would quiet the bit about it being false.
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@Dragon -- I know; I'm just saying Paradox is likely correct in assessing the oppostion to be out of good ideas, unless insisting we discard consistency and go with their subjective interpretation counts as a good idea. And you're cool, Kep; just speak when you feel everything's on the table, ready to be judged.
@Matt -- We're going by an interpretation that correlates with visual information and lore. You would have us utilize the explosion priniciple fallacy simply because there's a possibility, not a probablility based on consistency and illumination, that several aspects of the lore are coincidental, as opposed to being prescribed to a definite narrative pattern.
Yet again I say: a good explanation is one that is relatively simple, universally applicable, well-sourced, internally consistent, and illuminatory of other facts while relying on as little subjective definitions ("This info is unreliable, this isn't meant to be taken at face value") as possible. Bringing up seventeen-odd fan theories to work around one solid theory based on apparent information and collaborative context alike is poor reasoning.
It would be my honor to help make a new OP tomorrow, so long as the opposition presents an argument for the evidence pointing towards a more sensible scenario while refraining from emotion and ad hoc definitions. In the meantime, let's take it easy, collect our thoughts, and show thankfulness for our loved ones not having debilitating illnesses. Remember that this online stuff is just capecrap at the end of the day; just enjoy using intellect to mount challenges!
[This message may be ninja'd; connection starting to break]
@Matt -- We're going by an interpretation that correlates with visual information and lore. You would have us utilize the explosion priniciple fallacy simply because there's a possibility, not a probablility based on consistency and illumination, that several aspects of the lore are coincidental, as opposed to being prescribed to a definite narrative pattern.
Yet again I say: a good explanation is one that is relatively simple, universally applicable, well-sourced, internally consistent, and illuminatory of other facts while relying on as little subjective definitions ("This info is unreliable, this isn't meant to be taken at face value") as possible. Bringing up seventeen-odd fan theories to work around one solid theory based on apparent information and collaborative context alike is poor reasoning.
It would be my honor to help make a new OP tomorrow, so long as the opposition presents an argument for the evidence pointing towards a more sensible scenario while refraining from emotion and ad hoc definitions. In the meantime, let's take it easy, collect our thoughts, and show thankfulness for our loved ones not having debilitating illnesses. Remember that this online stuff is just capecrap at the end of the day; just enjoy using intellect to mount challenges!
[This message may be ninja'd; connection starting to break]
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I think that nothing really contradicts universal god tiers in dmc and the only counter arguments that i see in this thread are people saying that the feats here presented is either PIS or outlier
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From my perspective this entire 'argument' boils down to admins having disbelief over the feats. Nothing has been added to contradict or counterpoint the arguments presented for 3-A DMC. This thread is dragging on with little to no progress.
What are the people in this thread even discussing anymore? It's repeating the exact same points with little to no development. Unless someone can put together a viable argument that can reasonably debunk the feats this will go nowhere.
Either accept 3-A DMC or actually have an argument that reasonably justifies DMC not being upgraded to 3-A.
What are the people in this thread even discussing anymore? It's repeating the exact same points with little to no development. Unless someone can put together a viable argument that can reasonably debunk the feats this will go nowhere.
Either accept 3-A DMC or actually have an argument that reasonably justifies DMC not being upgraded to 3-A.
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@Matthew Schroeder
Nobody claims your bias or hate DMC because you don't agree with the upgrades, I would shit on them if they ever try to pull that.Your own words towards characters of the games and anyone who supports the upgrades are enough for that.Along with using fallacious arguments to make a point to spite the verse(which was pointed out multiple times in this thread), ignoring arguments and taking context out of feats, making up arguments and mashing that together with trying to discredit the supporters of the upgrade and disrespecting all of us first.Literally, the main crux of you argument agains't the upgrade involves calling us biased and using numbers to tire you out to make it seem like we are wrong and discredit us, don't pretend to be innocent.
Nobody claims your bias or hate DMC because you don't agree with the upgrades, I would shit on them if they ever try to pull that.Your own words towards characters of the games and anyone who supports the upgrades are enough for that.Along with using fallacious arguments to make a point to spite the verse(which was pointed out multiple times in this thread), ignoring arguments and taking context out of feats, making up arguments and mashing that together with trying to discredit the supporters of the upgrade and disrespecting all of us first.Literally, the main crux of you argument agains't the upgrade involves calling us biased and using numbers to tire you out to make it seem like we are wrong and discredit us, don't pretend to be innocent.
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...
No
No
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"Another thread, why? People who aren't even involved in the discussion and are outright admitting to just be here to watch the circus catch fire want this to continue, why should it be a surprise. Really disappointing to see an Admin among one of them, too."
Why? Because obviously people that are arguing aren't satisfied with the conclusion that is being reached where one person is basically hand waving away all stuff based on his own personal interpretations (not saying it is, but that's what I would interpret it if I was on the upgrade side; I'm mostly neutral)?
"To watch the circus catch fire", or maybe we are trying to ease tensions and making light hearted jokes. Which btw, ironic this is coming from the same guy that stated this: "I enjoy my posts just like I enjoy my pizza: Spicy" after a comment he knows for a fact will cause unnecesary controversy. Don't come with that bs now.
Yes, I'm angry.
Why? Because obviously people that are arguing aren't satisfied with the conclusion that is being reached where one person is basically hand waving away all stuff based on his own personal interpretations (not saying it is, but that's what I would interpret it if I was on the upgrade side; I'm mostly neutral)?
"To watch the circus catch fire", or maybe we are trying to ease tensions and making light hearted jokes. Which btw, ironic this is coming from the same guy that stated this: "I enjoy my posts just like I enjoy my pizza: Spicy" after a comment he knows for a fact will cause unnecesary controversy. Don't come with that bs now.
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The Real Cal Howard understands it best. This proposed upgrade would give Devil May Cry insane degrees of special treatement.
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Also people really need to stop trying to force an upgrade into happening. Crying "Either accept or move one!", "Nothing debunks it!", "It's just admins being biased!" doesn't do you any favors nor help any discussion.
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@Matthew Schroeder
Just provide the actual reasons beyond disbelief, I would love for this to be over and it could've been over days ago.
Just provide the actual reasons beyond disbelief, I would love for this to be over and it could've been over days ago.
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Please stop strawmaning my arguments in every single one of your posts. You are practically trying to make me look like my worst by ignoring all of my actual arguments and just accusing me of bias and ad-hominen.
I already did so, but you didn't reply with nothing new. All you did was reply with your own personal beliefs yet again, except that you present them as fact so you'll appear the more logical.
I already did so, but you didn't reply with nothing new. All you did was reply with your own personal beliefs yet again, except that you present them as fact so you'll appear the more logical.
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'Special treatment' means absolutely nothing in this context. Is this not a wiki dedicated to maintaining professional standards for estimating the powers and abilities of characters from various fictional stories and circumstances? If this fictional universe scales to having beings on a universal scale then...universal it shall be.
Offer up your genuine argumentation. Offer your genuine perspective. If you can not do that much and reasonably argue against this upgrade then your point, Admin or not, is incorrect and, perhaps, worthless in this thread.
Offer up your genuine argumentation. Offer your genuine perspective. If you can not do that much and reasonably argue against this upgrade then your point, Admin or not, is incorrect and, perhaps, worthless in this thread.
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It's less so the game itself and more so the strange refusal to argue what other people are saying. It is disrespectful and proves absolutely nothing.KLOL506 said:
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@Cryo
Did you not read Cal's post. Did you not read my own post? He pointed out the exact same upgrade attempts with Kirby and Zelda, both of which not only had more evidence than Devil May Cry has, but were similarly rejected, But you can't just steamroll all opposition and accuse them of bias and being unreasonable and accuse others of unprofessionalism just because they disagree.
Like the person below you said, calm down and try to look at the other perspective with an open mind.
Did you not read Cal's post. Did you not read my own post? He pointed out the exact same upgrade attempts with Kirby and Zelda, both of which not only had more evidence than Devil May Cry has, but were similarly rejected, But you can't just steamroll all opposition and accuse them of bias and being unreasonable and accuse others of unprofessionalism just because they disagree.
Like the person below you said, calm down and try to look at the other perspective with an open mind.
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@Matthew Schroeder
You didn't have an argument in the post, only complained about the side comments from people not involved in the discussion, I was just stating why I believe you biased based off what I've experienced, so you yourself won't assume my personal reasons and can see where I'm coming from without coming up your own personal reason as to why I believe what I do about you.Just telling you how I feel.
You didn't have an argument in the post, only complained about the side comments from people not involved in the discussion, I was just stating why I believe you biased based off what I've experienced, so you yourself won't assume my personal reasons and can see where I'm coming from without coming up your own personal reason as to why I believe what I do about you.Just telling you how I feel.
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