Asta begins his martial artist training

[Epiccheev]

Insert concise and succint debate winning argument filled with maieutics here

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I myself can't compete with this level of goonery.

I kneel.

 

[Maitreya12]

Oh so you do admit to not having the capacity for think. If you need a way to understand my messages you quoted. I’d be happy to help.

Oh my god my guy is literally on that high school malding mindset lmao. Great insults buddy, a natural even. Please continue on. They fuel me

This means “Epicchev did not disagree with what I said because he has not seen it”

Oh yeah just ignore all the clear insults and aggressively clown behavior lol. Sure it does. Unfortunately people just disagreeing with you doesn’t mean they didn’t read your arguments lmao.

want to know how he hasn’t see it?
“He did not address my point about AP because he was busy typing all that text before he saw m

Ok well clearly you didn’t read his responses since he literally did address your points. Like this one in direct response to your point about AP.

I didn't say he wouldn't at all. He can let himself be stabbed in non vital areas and clench his muscles to stop Asta from budging the blade, wich would be a positive trade for him due to regen. And he can also easily stop the blade swing with LS difference if he grabs it from the back or stops it with his hands by catching it from the sides. (He tries to stop it by putting his hand in front of the blades and he gets an Ethan Winters moment, tho.)

Lmk if you need further explanation

This is amazing tbh. I love the attitude. Very real vs battle type shit on god lmfao.

 

[azontr]

why is this still a conversation

yall mfs are goobers

 

[Maitreya12]

Shush I’m experiencing real vs battle type behavior here. Let me enjoy this.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Y'all worst than me frfr.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Oh my god my guy is literally on that high school malding mindset lmao. Great insults buddy, a natural even. Please continue on. They fuel me

This is amazing tbh. I love the attitude. Very real vs battle type shit on god lmfao.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh my god my guy is literally on that high school malding mindset lmao. Great insults buddy, a natural even. Please continue on. They fuel me

Oh yeah just ignore all the clear insults and aggressively clown behavior lol. Sure it does. Unfortunately people just disagreeing with you doesn’t mean they didn’t read your arguments lmao.

Ok well clearly you didn’t read his responses since he literally did address your points. Like this one in direct response to your point about AP.



This is amazing tbh. I love the attitude. Very real vs battle type shit on god lmfao.

 

[SuperStar]

Oh my god my guy is literally on that high school malding mindset lmao. Great insults buddy, a natural even. Please continue on. They fuel me

Bruh

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Why OPM and BC goons should never interact.

 

[Recon1511]

Don't put me in the same bag man

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Don't put me in the same bag man

Iaian skill stomps Theory on a stats equalized match btw

Same person btw.

 

[Kachon123]

So... are we going to actually debate or continue throwing around insults like 5 year olds?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

So... are we going to actually debate or continue throwing around insults like 5 year olds?

What Wachon said.

 

[Maitreya12]

There is no debate rn tbh since we’re waiting on either a response or other BC members to join in.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Hope you are all ready for Arnold ̷w̷a̷n̷k̷i̷n̷g̷ text

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If Garou grabs the swing or traps it the blade is halting immediately due to superior LS, he's only getting chopped if he fails to react to it. (not to mention getting stabbed through his chest isn't a big deal, since he got stabbed by Royal Ripper's blades who and Orochi's tendrils. and in the former was able to keep the blade stuck to his chest through msucles, wich he can do here due to LS difference)

As I said before. Asta has an AP advantage of over 1.6x and an upscale chain of ~ Dark Samurai Ichika > Ichika > Base Lucius > Lucifero. If Garou attempts to grab the sword with his bare hands. The sword will cut through the grab. I asked @DMUA a hypothetical question and they said that it is possible to one-shot with attacks hit in the right spots. It depends on the sharpness of the attack as well as the defense of the opponent. Even though has that rocky monster skin, Asta has cut through diamonds before. With AM he can enhance the cutting power of his sword as well. So with that on top of the fact that Asta has an upscale chain over his advantage, Asta will cut through Garou's hands if he attempts to hold it. If Garou uses both his hands to grab the fuller of the sword as shown on the scan @Kachon123 brought, Asta literally has another sword in his right hand or he can literally summon it into his other hand and begin fighting with two swords. There is also Asta's precognition preventing that from happening. Now let's go straight to that wall of texts.

Spoiler: OH AND UMM.... (YOU CAN IGNORE)

GAROU'S LS CONCERN (YOU CAN IGNORE)

I remembered when you said Garou's LS stems from breaking out of Sage Centipede's hold. Wasn't Sage Centipede stunned by the heroes that shot his face? therefore allowing Garou to open up a stunned SC's arms?

I don't think Garou scales to SC. The hold was softened and Garou simply moved his arms apart to escape. If not for that shot to SC's face from those heroes. He would've been held in place.

Now, for the skill debate let's go over each character. (watch out, long text.)

I know how skilled Garou is. I literally put a disclaimer in the argument that you read that Garou is skilled as **** in a hand to hand combat but it's a different story when it's a skilled swordsman vs a hand-to-hand fighter. A swordsman already has an advantage with weapons. Then you have Asta having miscellaneous abilities to supplement that on top of his skill. Garou possibly can't overcome all of that via sheer hand-to-hand skill.

Analytical prediction:
Even early Garou during his hero hunter key is capable of dodging danmaku ricochet from a professional slingshot using hero in a dark alleyway. Said hero being able to instantly calculate ricochet routes that would lead to the same bullet hitting a target from all directions multiple times. Garou is only grazed in the leg once due to the hero suddenly attacking andthe fact his eyesight hadn't gotten used to it yet. He also has pretty good eye to hand coordination, being able to deflect all shots from an overloaded customized Machine gun while injured exhausted,ill and poisoned. and this key is superior to a key that can beat Bang, a veteran martial artist hailed as best in the world and rival to Atomic Samurai, whose few pupils who were capable of keeping up with him are able to predict and cut 100.000 hair strands coming at them from all directions in an enclosed space with eyes closed while sensing killing intent. (wich would be around 33.333 hair strands from each.) with each one further dulling their blades and covering them in hair wich makes their movement difficult. So, in terms of AD this Garou is >Bang=Atomic Samurai>3 disciples=predict and cut 33,333 hair strands from all directions with eyes closed through sensing intent. Garou can also predict movements from Saitama and keep up with him, going as far as 6 movements ahead from an opponent absurdly stronger and faster. (Granted, Saitama was holding back, but his stat difference in speed and power was still clearly visible through the fight.) I'd also like to mention that other than Kiai's confusing senses with swordsmanship his resistance to having his Ki read is useless here, since even though Garou can somehow see Bioenergy moving through his opponents body he only ever used it to find where Sage Centipede's regen was coming from.

There are some things in that wall of texts that I noticed such as Asta's resistance to precognition. Asta's got that ability from Assimilating Kiato's swordsmanship, which throws off senses and prevents his ki and mind from being read. It also lets Asta fight instinctively. Garou literally can't predict Asta's moves through his senses because Asta's movement patterns are unpredictable. Bioenergy is human waste, so unless Asta had Brazillian food for breakfast, Garou won't be sensing any bioenergy let alone using that to read Asta's moves. Asta's accelerated development applies to his skill and techniques.

So the people of the land of the rising sun are capable of reading Ki as stated by Yami early in the series. Now that I have explained Asta's skill chain. We know how Asta's skill level is in relation to people of the land of the rising sun. If we leave out times when Asta evolved his Ki reading over and over again across the series, his skill with precognition against others with precognition would look like this. Asta ~ Ichika > Yami >~ Kijin clan > Vetto.

Spoiler: Garou's Analytical Prediction Concerns

As for Garou's analytical predictions, there are two things want to speak my mind on. The least important thing that bothers me is how the hair-cutting feat is treated. The samurais all had each other's back and the flow of the hair was not in crazy motion. The hair strands showed a bit of uniformity and trying to guard while cutting at the same time.. This is only a minor concern you can ignore it even. The second thing is that hero being able to calculate ricochet route... umm.. wasn't he drunk fighting Garou? I mean, kudos to Garou for predicting the drunk man but he would've killed Garou if one of the shots he missed hit Garou's vitals. That shot he missed was intended to be an unpredictable shot. I guess that cost him. Asta has dealt with those types of things. Things that appear unpredictable, Asta's adaptation simply kicked in and he turned something unpredictable into predictable. but it's whatever I guess. Predicting moves by reading a person's life force seems more efficient than just trying to read a person's movements. The third thing I do care about is WHY SAITAMA??? Saitama's moves are literally the easiest to read regardless of his stats. There was no need to bring Garou reading Saitama into this because Saitama is literally predictable, even to Asta, even to us viewers. That fight literally explains that being skilled doesn't matter. And Saitama was holding back as you've said which makes the whole thing worse. Your whole argument is fine without Saitama. .

Experience:
While Garou has never fought your average millenia old martial artist he has experienced a vast array of foes and abilities, such as his fight against Bang, a 81 year old martial artist and his older Brother Bomb. (Bang was already considered one of the strongest martial artists in the world and winner of multiple super martial tournaments at his 30s) Bang being a genius who created EHRF from started and became strongest with it and then proceeded to drop it at his 30s after being defeated by Bomb's WICF (wich he masters from even before then to current days) and create his own martial art, the WSRSF wich is the polar opposite in philosophy and fighting style from his previous martial art, so he has 40~ of mastery in that art while Bomb has 50~ on his at least. Garou has also been taught by Bang since childhood, as seen by flashbacks and has laid waste to many Dojos in his hunt for power.
Not only that he has fought through foes who vastly outranged him before, such as Orochi, who not only is a fighting genius capable of stealing WSRSF from Garou by a glance, but also has many extensible and flexible tendrils, a huge size difference and the ability to sprout arms and sharp mouths from them and to use Heat attacks Garou had no way of dodgin other than enduring. (and while he couldn't defeat him at the time, Asta here not only has much worse range but a somewhat tame AP advantage and no speed difference, wich Garou is likely to soon change.) He also fought Spring Mustachio and Royal Ripper, the former a disciple of another member of the samurai council along with Atomic Samurai, and the former a seasoned killer that can freely twist his jointand manipulate his body to create hard to predict strikes. (both of wich he defeated through adamage exchange.) Not to mention other mosnters like Rover and such that range spammed him and other weapon users coordinating between themselves.

Most of this could've been more concise. I know Garou has good experience with other hand-to-hand fighters. I mentioned it. However, his experience with swordsmen is nothing compared to Asta's skill. You're even comparing a giant monster who copied an h2h technique to a swordsman. Did you understand what I was explaining in the previous post about Kenjutsu vs Taijutsu or you assumed that I said Asta out skills Garou in H2H and wrote a skill bible on my ass.

Anyway, I am more focused on the text I boldened. We know that both Spring Mustachio and Royal Ripper aren't as skilled as Asta is in swordsmanship and we know that Garou had to take damage to deal with those swordsmen. In those sorts of situations, another sword in their hand could've helped them. Luckily, not only is Asta more skilled than both those swordsmen, but Asta can also wield two swords.

In conclusion, Garou has amazing hand 2 hand-combat skills. Asta can never compare to that. However, Asta has his own amazing skill with a blade. A fighter with a weapon is always at an advantage over those without a weapon. However, those without a weapon can still beat those with a weapon if they develop skills to fight specifically against those weapon users. Garou has used damage transferal against swordsmen that are vastly inferior to Asta in skill. Garou's martial arts are used best against other Taijutsu fighters, not Kenjutsu because he always lets them damage him to deal with them.

So, with all that being said i don't think that Asta can skill stomp Garou at all in this key. where even if he was extraordinarily more skilled wich i honestly don't think he is (if at all) he'd need to somehow:
1. Mantain constant damage on Garou to overtax his regeneration
2. Avoid his blades getting caught by his hands or deflected by WSRSF wich he can use with hands and legs (his main blade being pretty huge a target.)
3. Avoid a single graze from RASRF and avoid blocking or parrying it so the shockwaves can't break his arms (assuming it doesn't go straight to his bones, since it covered a kilometer wide centipede's carapace. wich makes this an herculean task)
4. Do all that before he can gain a sizeable speed advantage (wich will happen very quickly, even if he can't grow to blitz)
5. Do all that before he can develop a counter or possibly even use Fa Jin
6. Do all that before his 5 minutes full body, 10 minutes single arm amp with Devil union is up
7. Avoid all other manners of weird attack Garou's funky martial arts can do, like creating air slashes with rapid hand rotations, martial arts switches, AP and Speed amping with Awakening Breath and AP stomp worthy damage boosts with EHRF + Shockwaves that will harm even if the punch itself is blocked or deflected.

Imo all that is enough for Garou to win more often than not, since Asta is not really an slouch in skill.

So I finish with this. Asta doesn't skill-stomp Garou in a taijutsu match-up. However, in a sword vs hand fight, I believe Asta is more skilled than Garou in a sword v fist fight (if anyone reading this has not understood why I said that up to this point, refer to the "spoiler" below for a simplified explanation). Even if you don't agree, I will respond to this anyway. These are the things Asta responds with in order of your post:

Mantain constant damage on Garou to overtax his regeneration

1. Asta has the AP advantage of 1.6x and he upscales into it (DU Asta ~ Black Samurai Ichika > base Ichika > base Lucius > Complete Lucifero) allowing his piercing/slashing damage (that he can further increase with Anti Magic) and the size of one of his swords (that he can keep growing) to easily tax out Garou's regeneration. Note: (I know you won't strawman this Epichevv, but whoever is reading this should not claim I am saying Asta one-shots. I am saying Asta keeps damaging Garou to the point his regen won't matter).

Avoid his blades getting caught by his hands or deflected by WSRSF wich he can use with hands and legs (his main blade being pretty huge a target.)

2. WSRSF's Shockwaves hasn't been shown to propagate through anything that isn't the body or rocks, let alone iron or supernatural condensed energy because those are the main makeup of Asta's swords and how he sharpens them and makes one of them grow.

Avoid a single graze from RASRF and avoid blocking or parrying it so the shockwaves can't break his arms (assuming it doesn't go straight to his bones, since it covered a kilometer wide centipede's carapace. wich makes this an herculean task)

3. Asta's swords can protect him from RASRF, because shockwaves haven't been shown to propagate through supernatural condensed energy, and should we really assume it can propagate through Iron? No. I personally believe it only propagates with direct contact with the body or nearby rocks.

Do all that before he can gain a sizeable speed advantage (which will happen very quickly, even if he can't grow to blitz)

4. Yes Asta can do all of the above before Garou's sizeable speed advantage hits. Asta also has his own AD, precognition, skill + instinctive reactions to keep up the advantage.

Do all that before he can develop a counter or possibly even use Fa Jin

5. Fa Jin is in his next key so I won't worry about that. right?mjm,

Do all that before his 5 minutes full body, 10 minutes single arm amp with Devil union is up

6. He would look to finish things quickly.

Avoid all other manners of weird attack Garou's funky martial arts can do, like creating air slashes with rapid hand rotations, martial arts switches, AP and Speed amping with Awakening Breath and AP stomp worthy damage boosts with EHRF + Shockwaves that will harm even if the punch itself is blocked or deflected.

7. Asta's Demon Slayer sword can act as a shield for the air slash. Asta also has the skills to deflect or dodge danmaku. Asta can just fly to avoid melee attacks too. One thing I forgot to mention is Asta's damage reduction, it's one of the skills from Kiato's swordsmanship which allows him to take minimal damage from a one-shot attack. Since Asta has the advantage with his upscale chain + Damage reduction, he should easily be able to take attacks from Garou's Awakening Breath.

Spoiler: WHY I SAID ASTA OUTSKILLS GAROU (IN OVER SIMPLIFIED TERMS)

Just to clarify why I said Asta > Garou again with simpler terms. Please do not strawman this.
Garou (Taijutsu) >>>>>>>> Asta
Asta (Kenjutsu) >>>>>>>>
Asta's experience (Kenjutsu vs Taijutsu) >>> Garou's experience (Kenjutsu vs Taijutsu).

---

ASTA'S AD

I was about to send this post yesterday...

But I had to sleep over it because I work best when I have the chance to sleep over my thoughts. I remember points.

Earlier I mentioned that Asta's Accelerated Development was very good. I said that Asta is capable of growing astronomically in skill, speed and power. However I couldn't recollect all of his feats in great detail, I only knew that he had those feats at those specific times. So I compiled my thoughts and went to discuss with CloverDragon on what exactly happened between some of these time periods. I am finally able to make an indepth analysis on some of Asta's AD feats. Lets begin:

According to Lolopechka, the clover kingdom mages have the ability to grow vastly in combat. According to Devils, humans evolve in combat as well. There are those with potential who evolve faster than others such as Yami, Asta, Noelle, and Yuno. Let's look at one of the characters with extraordinary accelerated development compared to everyone else:

In the fight against Vanica. Noelle's speed and power grew astronomically. Vanica is shocked at this growth. Noelle went from being inferior to Vanica's disciples to be able to close the power gap in such a way that she could damage 70% Vanica in a single fight. This growth was a staggering 150x increase in power. She was also able to just barely avoid 70% Vanica's attacks.

Asta on the other hand has even better growth than Noelle. He able to go from 7-B to 6-C, which is a massive 3000x increase. In a single fight (vs Vetto). This was all thanks to Asta's endurance and ability to take massive beatings and just all round survivability. There are also other instances where Asta who is massively weaker than Lucifero in Devil Union could slash Lucifero in base form and knock him out at the end of the fight (albeit Lucifero was weakened). Asta also went from being inferior to Zagred to taking his full-powered blows later on in the fight. However his most natable is the fact he grew thousands of times in a fight. As I said before, Asta is capable of improving his skills and abilities as well. Obviously we know in combat is where Asta experiences the most growth which is why he was able to do all these feats. Ryu knows this, so he is forcing Asta in fights knowing he will grow and perfect a new skill known as Zetten. Zetten is the act of focusing Ki into your strikes to deal massive damage at great speeds. Zetten is a skill that takes decades of training to perform and Asta did it in his first try after just looking at a demonstration once (This is not the first time Asta is stealig skills like this.) Right now Asta is constantly building his level of mastery in battle so he can outskill Ichika's Zetten usage. Speaking of Ichika, Asta went from taking one near-one-shot Zetten blow to taking mutiple blows from an amped Ichika. He says Devil Union isn't enough for Ichika's base form and yet he grew in skill and power to the point of keeping up with an amped Ichika.

The growth rate chain:

Asta (capable of growing over 3000x in the fight against Vetto) >>> Noelle (Grew about 150x against Vanica) > Yami > Clover Kingdom mages (or at least the mages that came to heart kingdom) > The rest of the mages

TL;DR

Garou's shockwaves in this key can't travel through supernatural condensed energy let alone Iron unless shown. Garou's LS is sus but its whatever i guess. Nonetheless, Asta has the range advantage and AP advantage with a decent upscale chain, on top of his piercing damage (that he can further sharpen with Anti Magic Energy) to deal Garou severe damage* with his slashes and its enough for a decapitation too. Asta sense manipulation works on Garou because he mainly requires his regular senses to predict others. Asta also has skills (especially in a sword vs fist fight) and abilities like damage reduction to keep the advantage and survive. Asta's AD is arguably better than Garou's considering the fact that he can get thousands of times stronger in a single fight while Garou got thousands of times over the course of several fights, Asta can also improve his precognition and his techniques over time. Asta should eventually overtax Garou's regen or deal a heavy blow to win before the DU timer runs out.

These are the reasons why I believe Asta wins more often than not.

 

[azontr]

After reading Arnold's post, I can confidently vote for Asta. Which I do.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I completely forgot about Asta's AD rate yesterday. Glad I remembered this morning and discussed with CloverDragon. So I guess Garou's AD here isn't really a big deal.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

As I said before. Asta has an AP advantage of over 1.6x and an upscale chain of ~ Dark Samurai Ichika > Ichika > Base Lucius > Lucifero. If Garou attempts to grab the sword with his bare hands. The sword will cut through the grab. I asked @DMUA a hypothetical question and they said that it is possible to one-shot with attacks hit in the right spots. It depends on the sharpness of the attack as well as the defense of the opponent. Even though has that rocky monster skin, Asta has cut through diamonds before. With AM he can enhance the cutting power of his sword as well. So with that on top of the fact that Asta has an upscale chain over his advantage, Asta will cut through Garou's hands if he attempts to hold it. If Garou uses both his hands to grab the fuller of the sword as shown on the scan @Kachon123 brought, Asta literally has another sword in his right hand or he can literally summon it into his other hand and begin fighting with two swords. There is also Asta's precognition preventing that from happening. Now let's go straight to that wall of texts.

Spoiler: OH AND UMM.... (YOU CAN IGNORE)

GAROU'S LS CONCERN (YOU CAN IGNORE)

I remembered when you said Garou's LS stems from breaking out of Sage Centipede's hold. Wasn't Sage Centipede stunned by the heroes that shot his face? therefore allowing Garou to open up a stunned SC's arms?

I don't think Garou scales to SC. The hold was softened and Garou simply moved his arms apart to escape. If not for that shot to SC's face from those heroes. He would've been held in place.

I know how skilled Garou is. I literally put a disclaimer in the argument that you read that Garou is skilled as **** in a hand to hand combat but it's a different story when it's a skilled swordsman vs a hand-to-hand fighter. A swordsman already has an advantage with weapons. Then you have Asta having miscellaneous abilities to supplement that on top of his skill. Garou possibly can't overcome all of that via sheer hand-to-hand skill.






There are some things in that wall of texts that I noticed such as Asta's resistance to precognition. Asta's got that ability from Assimilating Kiato's swordsmanship, which throws off senses and prevents his ki and mind from being read. It also lets Asta fight instinctively. Garou literally can't predict Asta's moves through his senses because Asta's movement patterns are unpredictable. Bioenergy is human waste, so unless Asta had Brazillian food for breakfast, Garou won't be sensing any bioenergy let alone using that to read Asta's moves. Asta's accelerated development applies to his skill and techniques.

So the people of the land of the rising sun are capable of reading Ki as stated by Yami early in the series. Now that I have explained Asta's skill chain. We know how Asta's skill level is in relation to people of the land of the rising sun. If we leave out times when Asta evolved his Ki reading over and over again across the series, his skill with precognition against others with precognition would look like this. Asta ~ Ichika > Yami >~ Kijin clan > Vetto.

Spoiler: Garou's Analytical Prediction Concerns

As for Garou's analytical predictions, there are two things want to speak my mind on. The least important thing that bothers me is how the hair-cutting feat is treated. The samurais all had each other's back and the flow of the hair was not in crazy motion. The hair strands showed a bit of uniformity and trying to guard while cutting at the same time.. This is only a minor concern you can ignore it even. The second thing is that hero being able to calculate ricochet route... umm.. wasn't he drunk fighting Garou? I mean, kudos to Garou for predicting the drunk man but he would've killed Garou if one of the shots he missed hit Garou's vitals. That shot he missed was intended to be an unpredictable shot. I guess that cost him. Asta has dealt with those types of things. Things that appear unpredictable, Asta's adaptation simply kicked in and he turned something unpredictable into predictable. but it's whatever I guess. Predicting moves by reading a person's life force seems more efficient than just trying to read a person's movements. The third thing I do care about is WHY SAITAMA??? Saitama's moves are literally the easiest to read regardless of his stats. There was no need to bring Garou reading Saitama into this because Saitama is literally predictable, even to Asta, even to us viewers. That fight literally explains that being skilled doesn't matter. And Saitama was holding back as you've said which makes the whole thing worse. Your whole argument is fine without Saitama. .

Most of this could've been more concise. I know Garou has good experience with other hand-to-hand fighters. I mentioned it. However, his experience with swordsmen is nothing compared to Asta's skill. You're even comparing a giant monster who copied an h2h technique to a swordsman. Did you understand what I was explaining in the previous post about Kenjutsu vs Taijutsu or you assumed that I said Asta out skills Garou in H2H and wrote a skill bible on my ass.

Anyway, I am more focused on the text I boldened. We know that both Spring Mustachio and Royal Ripper aren't as skilled as Asta is in swordsmanship and we know that Garou had to take damage to deal with those swordsmen. In those sorts of situations, another sword in their hand could've helped them. Luckily, not only is Asta more skilled than both those swordsmen, but Asta can also wield two swords.

In conclusion, Garou has amazing hand 2 hand-combat skills. Asta can never compare to that. However, Asta has his own amazing skill with a blade. A fighter with a weapon is always at an advantage over those without a weapon. However, those without a weapon can still beat those with a weapon if they develop skills to fight specifically against those weapon users. Garou has used damage transferal against swordsmen that are vastly inferior to Asta in skill. Garou's martial arts are used best against other Taijutsu fighters, not Kenjutsu because he always lets them damage him to deal with them.





So I finish with this. Asta doesn't skill-stomp Garou in a taijutsu match-up. However, in a sword vs hand fight, I believe Asta is more skilled than Garou in a sword v fist fight (if anyone reading this has not understood why I said that up to this point, refer to the "spoiler" below for a simplified explanation). Even if you don't agree, I will respond to this anyway. These are the things Asta responds with in order of your post:



1. Asta has the AP advantage of 1.6x and he upscales into it (DU Asta ~ Black Samurai Ichika > base Ichika > base Lucius > Complete Lucifero) allowing his piercing/slashing damage (that he can further increase with Anti Magic) and the size of one of his swords (that he can keep growing) to easily tax out Garou's regeneration. Note: (I know you won't strawman this Epichevv, but whoever is reading this should not claim I am saying Asta one-shots. I am saying Asta keeps damaging Garou to the point his regen won't matter).



2. WSRSF's Shockwaves hasn't been shown to propagate through anything that isn't the body or rocks, let alone iron or supernatural condensed energy because those are the main makeup of Asta's swords and how he sharpens them and makes one of them grow.



3. Asta's swords can protect him from RASRF, because shockwaves haven't been shown to propagate through supernatural condensed energy, and should we really assume it can propagate through Iron? No. I personally believe it only propagates with direct contact with the body or nearby rocks.



4. Yes Asta can do all of the above before Garou's sizeable speed advantage hits. Asta also has his own AD, precognition, skill + instinctive reactions to keep up the advantage.




5. Fa Jin is in his next key so I won't worry about that. right?mjm,




6. He would look to finish things quickly.



7. Asta's Demon Slayer sword can act as a shield for the air slash. Asta also has the skills to deflect or dodge danmaku. Asta can just fly to avoid melee attacks too. One thing I forgot to mention is Asta's damage reduction, it's one of the skills from Kiato's swordsmanship which allows him to take minimal damage from a one-shot attack. Since Asta has the advantage with his upscale chain + Damage reduction, he should easily be able to take attacks from Garou's Awakening Breath.

Spoiler: WHY I SAID ASTA OUTSKILLS GAROU (IN OVER SIMPLIFIED TERMS)

Just to clarify why I said Asta > Garou again with simpler terms. Please do not strawman this.
Garou (Taijutsu) >>>>>>>> Asta
Asta (Kenjutsu) >>>>>>>>
Asta's experience (Kenjutsu vs Taijutsu) >>> Garou's experience (Kenjutsu vs Taijutsu).

---

ASTA'S AD

I was about to send this post yesterday...

But I had to sleep over it because I work best when I have the chance to sleep over my thoughts. I remember points.

Earlier I mentioned that Asta's Accelerated Development was very good. I said that Asta is capable of growing astronomically in skill, speed and power. However I couldn't recollect all of his feats in great detail, I only knew that he had those feats at those specific times. So I compiled my thoughts and went to discuss with CloverDragon on what exactly happened between some of these time periods. I am finally able to make an indepth analysis on some of Asta's AD feats. Lets begin:

According to Lolopechka, the clover kingdom mages have the ability to grow vastly in combat. According to Devils, humans evolve in combat as well. There are those with potential who evolve faster than others such as Yami, Asta, Noelle, and Yuno. Let's look at one of the characters with extraordinary accelerated development compared to everyone else:

In the fight against Vanica. Noelle's speed and power grew astronomically. Vanica is shocked at this growth. Noelle went from being inferior to Vanica's disciples to be able to close the power gap in such a way that she could damage 70% Vanica in a single fight. This growth was a staggering 150x increase in power. She was also able to just barely avoid 70% Vanica's attacks.

Asta on the other hand has even better growth than Noelle. He able to go from 7-B to 6-C, which is a massive 3000x increase. In a single fight (vs Vetto). This was all thanks to Asta's endurance and ability to take massive beatings and just all round survivability. There are also other instances where Asta who is massively weaker than Lucifero in Devil Union could slash Lucifero in base form and knock him out at the end of the fight (albeit Lucifero was weakened). Asta also went from being inferior to Zagred to taking his full-powered blows later on in the fight. However his most natable is the fact he grew thousands of times in a fight. As I said before, Asta is capable of improving his skills and abilities as well. Obviously we know in combat is where Asta experiences the most growth which is why he was able to do all these feats. Ryu knows this, so he is forcing Asta in fights knowing he will grow and perfect a new skill known as Zetten. Zetten is the act of focusing Ki into your strikes to deal massive damage at great speeds. Zetten is a skill that takes decades of training to perform and Asta did it in his first try after just looking at a demonstration once (This is not the first time Asta is stealig skills like this.) Right now Asta is constantly building his level of mastery in battle so he can outskill Ichika's Zetten usage. Speaking of Ichika, Asta went from taking one near-one-shot Zetten blow to taking mutiple blows from an amped Ichika. He says Devil Union isn't enough for Ichika's base form and yet he grew in skill and power to the point of keeping up with an amped Ichika.

The growth rate chain:






TL;DR

Garou's shockwaves in this key can't travel through supernatural condensed energy let alone Iron unless shown. Garou's LS is sus but its whatever i guess. Nonetheless, Asta has the range advantage and AP advantage with a decent upscale chain, on top of his piercing damage (that he can further sharpen with Anti Magic Energy) to deal Garou severe damage* with his slashes and its enough for a decapitation too. Asta sense manipulation works on Garou because he mainly requires his regular senses to predict others. Asta also has skills (especially in a sword vs fist fight) and abilities like damage reduction to keep the advantage and survive. Asta's AD is arguably better than Garou's considering the fact that he can get thousands of times stronger in a single fight while Garou got thousands of times over the course of several fights, Asta can also improve his precognition and his techniques over time. Asta should eventually overtax Garou's regen or deal a heavy blow to win before the DU timer runs out.

These are the reasons why I believe Asta wins more often than not.

Spoiler

Encheção de linguiça

I have counted the votes

 

[azontr]

Bazilian

 

[SuperStar]

Switch my vote to asta

 

[Axl233]

Garou fra, cause Asta is too much wanked.

 

[Majinere566]

Based Reasoning

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Garou fra, cause Asta is too much wanked.

The best argument in this thread ngl

 

[Maitreya12]

This is the most even match so far lol

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Asta FRA.

Good shit, Arnold.

 

[Dragonite007]

Asta FRA

 

[Tural2004]

There are too many things to write a reply to but I will counter some of Arnold's points.

As I said before. Asta has an AP advantage of over 1.6x and an upscale chain of ~ Dark Samurai Ichika > Ichika > Base Lucius > Lucifero. If Garou attempts to grab the sword with his bare hands.

Why do you assume that Garou will hold the sharp sides of the sword, to begin with? If he holds it similarly to what he did against Royal Ripper, then it wouldn't do a thing.

Also, I think it was mentioned above, but he can just reflect his attacks with WSRSF and the AP difference would be a joke. Garou's incomplete WSRFS could deflect attacks from Metal Bat who could one-shot him. Bang says the technique can deflect attacks no matter how strong. It is NLF by itself but the scaling chain you gave isn't anywhere enough to overcome WSRFS. In OVA 4, Bang is indecisive about a match between himself and Saitama, despite admitting that the latter is far stronger. And Saitama's meteor feat is High 6-C while Bang is 7-B.

Asta literally has another sword in his right hand or he can literally summon it into his other hand and begin fighting with two swords

Then it is fortunate that Asta's sword will instantly break due to LS advantage.

but it's a different story when it's a skilled swordsman vs a hand-to-hand fighter

There is really nothing stopping Garou from adapting and learning sword techniques.

A swordsman already has an advantage with weapons

Only in real life. From these characters' perspective, it is only about 1.6x advantage.

Asta has the AP advantage of 1.6x and he upscales into it (DU Asta ~ Black Samurai Ichika > base Ichika > base Lucius > Complete Lucifero) allowing his piercing/slashing damage (that he can further increase with Anti Magic) and the size of one of his swords (that he can keep growing) to easily tax out Garou's regeneration. Note: (I know you won't strawman this Epichevv, but whoever is reading this should not claim I am saying Asta one-shots. I am saying Asta keeps damaging Garou to the point his regen won't matter).

You know, that AP advantage isn't anywhere enough to overcome low-mid regeneration, especially since Garou's is extremely fast. Also, that can't work, to begin with, unless Garou just sits there and let himself be hit. Meanwhile, damage on Asta will just accumulate.

WSRSF's Shockwaves hasn't been shown to propagate through anything that isn't the body or rocks, let alone iron or supernatural condensed energy because those are the main makeup of Asta's swords and how he sharpens them and makes one of them grow.

What shockwaves are you talking about? This is WSRSF.

Asta's swords can protect him from RASRF, because shockwaves haven't been shown to propagate through supernatural condensed energy, and should we really assume it can propagate through Iron? No. I personally believe it only propagates with direct contact with the body or nearby rocks.

Shockwaves can travel through both. The amount of damage Asta will take will vary but you can't just say shockwaves will be completely ineffective. Also, I am pretty sure shockwaves travel better through metal.

Besides that, RASRF doesn't need direct contact. Just shockwaves through air will damage Asta.

And to boot, RASRF isn't the only way to damage Asta. CFDSF is supposed to be above RASRF and any direct contact with it should end Asta. This Garou also is about to perfect MCGSF. He was able to one-shot Sage Centipede with this even though he couldn't do it previously with several amps from Awakening Breath, Abandonment, EHRF and Resonance while also having Metal Bat's help.

Yes Asta can do all of the above before Garou's sizeable speed advantage hits

I don't think so. Garou went from comparable speed to blitzing in 0.0013 seconds. If Asta indeed could finish Garou off before that, then this would be a stomo match.

Asta's Demon Slayer sword can act as a shield for the air slash

He will not be able to fully block WICF considering it is almost an omnidirectional attack and isn't actually visible unlike other air slash techniques.

Asta also has the skills to deflect or dodge danmaku.

But Garou is more skilled. And when it comes to deflecting or dodging, it doesn't really matter if you use a sword and your fists.

Asta can just fly to avoid melee attacks too.

Why would Garou allow him to open distance between them? At worst, he just does what he did against Flash and PS. It would also give him extra versatility in air while making it harder for Asta to fly.

He able to go from 7-B to 6-C, which is a massive 3000x increase. In a single fight (vs Vetto).

Cool. Garou went from 6-A to 5-C in a single fight and grew over 28000 times. And that was when Saitama wasn't trying to kill him. With near death experiences, his growth is far more potent.

 

[Tural2004]

After reading Arnold's post, I can confidently vote for Asta. Which I do.

I wish "poisoning the well" fallacy didn't exist.

Btw can someone tell me why my previous vote isn't counted? It should be about 6-6 right now.

 

[Recon1511]

Yeah I don't understand how shockwaves can't travel through metal lol

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Muscles FRA not Mash

 

[Recon1511]

Also saying Garou LS is sus when he clearly grows muscles and overpowers Sage's grip is kinda cringe lol

 

[Kachon123]

Bringing back my Garou FRA vote.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I literally just saw “shockwaves can travel through air” anyway I’ll respond to that later

Yeah I don't understand how shockwaves can't travel through metal lol

I noticed you always strawman my points

earlier you didn’t even address the upscale chain when talking about my piercing damage. Now you only care about the metal when I literally boldenned “supernatural energy”

 

[Kin201]

I see people arguing Garou hasn't fought swordsmen on the level of Asta but does Asta have experience fighting martial artists as skilled and versatile as Garou?

 

[Maitreya12]

Ok I’m actually going just reiterate and continue on with my main points on why Garou wins, specifically when it comes to his AD so here:

- If we are to compare the AD of Garou and Asta, Garou went from 7B to his 6A AP value over the course of a single minute. That’s a difference of about 150,000,000x…yeah, so moving on. (Explanation below)

Explanation for why it was a minute: When Garou first woke up after fighting Bang he was 7B. He then one shot three dragon level monsters in literally half of a second (stated.) Was then immediately jumped by both flashy flash and platinum sperm who then began in a three way tussle. Flashy flash was quickly taken out and then it was just between Garou and sperm. Who Garou took out in literally .0013 of a second. And then literally right after that he engaged with SC and got his 6A tier. Over the course of a singular minute of engaging with foes, Garou increased by 150 million times. So assuming Asta did increase his own strength by 3000x over the course of a fight, Garou’s AD would be stupidly higher still.

- By why focus on vs battle tiers, when I can do you one better and give an actual direct feat Garou has. Over the course of .0013 of a second, Garou went from being equal in speed to someone to being able to blitz them. Improving every 1/10,000th of a second as he fought.

That means within the first literal 1/1000th of a second that Garou and Asta begin fighting….Garou has already become faster than Asta. Not enough to blitz, but enough to comfortably avoid all of Asta’s attacks.

This is terrible for Asta for 2 reasons:

1. The faster Garou is the more likely he is to land a direct attack, let alone even just a graze of one which is all he needs to win this fight.
2. The faster Garou is means the easier he can avoid Asta’s attacks which means the fight then drags on longer which then allows Garou’s reactive evolution to continue to kick in higher and higher until he simply supersedes all of Asta’s capabilities.

So basically to reiterate all the advantages Garou has over Asta and why I think he wins:

• His AD is stupidly higher than Asta’s with him being able to get faster than his opponent within 1/10,000th of a second margins.
• He has a lifting strength advantage meaning he can just catch Asta’s blades. He doesn’t ever need to make contact with the blade to catch it and even if he does the 1.56x AP difference Asta has over Garou I don’t think is enough to cut through Garou’s arm, simply just minorly wound him at most. This would even work against Asta’s smaller blades as well since Garou has shown to be able to catch blades like that between his fingers as well.
• He has great regen making it increasingly hard for Asta to be able to take him out before Garou’s AD kicks in enough to turn the match to his favor.
• To win this fight all Garou needs to do is graze Asta with one of his attacks. One graze and he would win.
  

 

[azontr]

So, I did a few minor calculations on Garou's Accelerated Development, for reference.

Spoiler

He went for 7-B(13.822 Megatons) to 6-A(2.46 Petatons). 2.46 Petatons is 2460000000000000 tons. 13.822 Megatons is 13822000 tons. That's a difference of around... 177,977,137.896.

He then went from 6-A(2.46 Petatons) to 5-C(69.44 Exatons). 69.44 Exatons is 77772800000000000000 tons. Which is a difference of around 31,614.9593496 times.

I also did one for Asta's AD.

Spoiler

Asta's 7-B value is 8.83 Gigatons(because it's the only 7-B calc in the verse I see). His 6-C value is 26.5 Gigatons. Using the power of basic ass division, that gives us a growth rate of 3001.13250283 times.

Soooooo yeah. In case anyone wanted to know.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Asta's evolution is not even that good in combat. He did not evolve at a level hundreds of times above his own Tier during the fight against Lucifero or Lucius.

He is like any other shounen mc, his evolution is ******* inconsistent. Sometimes a 3 month of training makes you 1000 times stronger, sometimes a 2 year of training can only increase the versatility of your transformations

 

[azontr]

TBH I don't even think that we should be using fan calcs to measure growth but whatever.