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Ashita no Joe CRT

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Da_Lunge_Fish

Da_Lunge_Fish

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So, yeah, my very straightforward CRT about Ashita no Joe series I'm probably the only person in this whole wide world to give a shit about. First, there's this accepted speed and AP calculation for the whole verse (only Joe's profile exists now tho). Second, Joe should receive acrobatics, considering in his fight with Harimau, who was literally fighting by jumping all around the boxing ring and dealing numerous uppercuts while spinning in mid air, Joe ultimately defeated him by literally outjumping him. One last thing, Joe's intelligence should be gifted to maybe even genius in terms of boxing IQ. He learnt to jab in literal seconds, noticed Carlos's hidden elbow while no one else, even the referee, did, commented as a genius by Danpei, and god, is he a technique sponge. He copied konnyaku techniques, while punch drunk, just by remembering it, developed the no guard stance by himself, developed a tactic against Wolf Kanagushi just by seeing the bruises on children he beat up, and finally copied, the corkscrew punch, a very advanced technique from the champion of the world Jose Mendosa just by, again, looking at it. He also showcased decent intelligence outside of boxing too, like when he manipulated Wolf and his manager to let him officially box, and even making a legitimate prison escape plan that would've been successful had Rikishi not interfered.
So that's it. What do you think?
 
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Calc checks out, and so does Acrobatics. Gifted intelligence rating should check out, but I am neutral in outright Genius.
 
Seems good, I would label acrobatics as enhanced mobility, because he's not really performing acrobatics, but more very agile jumps and iirc it doesn't totally qualifies.

Gifted-Genius in boxing looks good too, the former absolutely, the latter I don't know.

Also, am I wrong or wasn't Joe, but Tange, the one who figured out Wolf's tactic by examinating the kids' wounds?
 
SamanPatou said:
Seems good, I would label acrobatics as enhanced mobility, because he's not really performing acrobatics, but more very agile jumps and iirc it doesn't totally qualifies.

Gifted-Genius in boxing looks good too, the former absolutely, the latter I don't know.

Also, am I wrong or wasn't Joe, but Tange, the one who figured out Wolf's tactic by examinating the kids' wounds?
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, guess you're right about the later point. I think at least gifted would be good. Can I apply this now?
 
So I've previously talked at length about Ashita no Joe and have been asked to weigh in on this thread by Lunge. I've gone over all the points above and here's what I think.

AP and Speed: I've mentioned this before to Lunge, but I still believe that Harimau should be pixel-scaled to confirm the distance he's spinning. Half his height was used as a base diameter, but I don't agree with that, as that's assuming Harimau's torso + head are equal in length to his legs, which I don't believe is true, and he's very scrunched up while spinning; his back isn't straight when he does it, so some height is lost. As moment of inertia takes in total height, that calc isn't affected by scrunching, so the AP is fine. However, I still think the speed calc should be redone.

Acrobatics: I don't agree with this. Joe doesn't "outjump" Harimau, he jumps straight up to not be in Harimau's path and punches straight down. He does this tactic exactly once in the fight and the manga as a whole. You could argue that he could have sidestepped and punched then, but what hurts more, hitting someone who's spinning from the side or stopping their rotation very suddenly with a punch to the face? That's more of a testament to his boxing instincts than his acrobatic ability. Did he jump close to six feet in the air? Yes. Has he shown similar physical capabilities earlier in the manga like when he scales wall and hops fences? Yes. Do I think that qualifies him to get an acrobatics tag? No.

Intelligence: I'd settle for "Highly Gifted" when it comes to boxing. While the points Lunge made above are true, there's two points I'd like to go over:

1. While Joe has shown the ability to learn techniques quickly, he ultimately tosses it all aside with his usual strategy of "run in and keep swinging until the opponent falls" and frequently struggles against opponents that are very technical or equal in skill to him. I go over this point in more detail in my Joe vs Ippo Removal essay (here), so I'll summarize my points really quickly:

-When fighting Carlos, his definite equal at that point in the manga, neither fighter could knock the other out and the fight devolved into a street brawl that ended in a draw.

-When fighting highly technical Kim Yong-Bi, Joe tried blitzing and ultimately got his ass kicked. Joe only got his hits in after his speech about Rikishi and got a knockout opportunity after a cut on his forehead triggered Kim's PTSD from the Korean War and rendered him a screaming mess. If Kim didn't have such an affliction, this wouldn't have happened and Joe would have likely lost.

-Jose dominated the final fight of the manga and Joe only got as far as he did due to luck early on and his massive pool of stamina. Otherwise, the rest of the fight proved that Joe couldn't hold a candle to Jose when it came to skill.

2. Lunge's wording about the konnyaku, aka "no guard," techniques, as well as the wording of the manga, implies something that isn't true. Yes, Joe did learn his no-guard techniques by watching that kid. However, that was back in the prison and he hadn't used those abilities for most of his professional career. Joe is nearly dead at that point in the fight and his brain has been rattled like a maraca at that point, hence why he's going off instinct and bringing out his first-learned techniques. This is supported by him using counters again, something he hadn't used since his fight with Carlos. Did he still copy those techniques through sight? Yes. Did he do so by going "Oh yeah, I remember that kid doing some leaning stuff six years ago in the prison, I'm going to try that now for the first time."? No.

Also, Joe copying the corkscrew punch from Jose was an unconscious action, since he did it twice in the final round, when Joe was barely conscious, and they weren't nearly as effective as Jose's.

Finally, Joe didn't come up with the no-guard technique by himself. The evidence page Lunge uses is misleading, mainly due to the translation. As I mentioned previously, Joe copied his no guard style from Aoyama in the prison and began using them himself. The page Lunge highlights is Joe going "hey, a really good way to dodge uppercuts is to lean way back. It works best with no-guard, as a traditional guard tightens up my muscles and lowers flexibility." Danpei also was the one to teach Aoyama the no-guard dodges and footwork, as Joe wasn't willing to learn traditionally and that was the roundabout way he was going to teach Joe. Also, if Joe's no-guard was such a genius move, as stated by Danpei in the panel (which was more a reference to Joe figuring out the details of the leaning move by himself, but that's beside the point), why did Joe stop using it and start relying on traditional footwork for most of his professional career?

So in conclusion, I think Joe is a very gifted boxer, but he is far from a genius
 
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Sorvoe551 said:
So I've previously talked at length about Ashita no Joe and have been asked to weigh in on this thread by Lunge. I've gone over all the points above and here's what I think.

AP and Speed: I've mentioned this before to Lunge, but I still believe that Harimau should be pixel-scaled to confirm the distance he's spinning. Half his height was used as a base diameter, but I don't agree with that, as that's assuming Harimau's torso + head are equal in length to his legs, which I don't believe is true, and he's very scrunched up while spinning; his back isn't straight when he does it, so some height is lost. As moment of inertia takes in total height, that calc isn't affected by scrunching, so the AP is fine. However, I still think the speed calc should be redone.

Acrobatics: I don't agree with this. Joe doesn't "outjump" Harimau, he jumps straight up to not be in Harimau's path and punches straight down. He does this tactic exactly once in the fight and the manga as a whole. You could argue that he could have sidestepped and punched then, but what hurts more, hitting someone who's spinning from the side or stopping their rotation very suddenly with a punch to the face? That's more of a testament to his boxing instincts than his acrobatic ability. Did he jump close to six feet in the air? Yes. Has he shown similar physical capabilities earlier in the manga like when he scales wall and hops fences? Yes. Do I think that qualifies him to get an acrobatics tag? No.

Intelligence: I'd settle for "Highly Gifted" when it comes to boxing. While the points Lunge made above are true, there's two points I'd like to go over:

1. While Joe has shown the ability to learn techniques quickly, he ultimately tosses it all aside with his usual strategy of "run in and keep swinging until the opponent falls" and frequently struggles against opponents that are very technical or equal in skill to him. I go over this point in more detail in my Joe vs Ippo Removal essay (here), so I'll summarize my points really quickly:

-When fighting Carlos, his definite equal at that point in the manga, neither fighter could knock the other out and the fight devolved into a street brawl that ended in a draw.

-When fighting highly technical Kim Yong-Bi, Joe tried blitzing and ultimately got his ass kicked. Joe only got his hits in after his speech about Rikishi and got a knockout opportunity after a cut on his forehead triggered Kim's PTSD from the Korean War and rendered him a screaming mess. If Kim didn't have such an affliction, this wouldn't have happened and Joe would have likely lost.

-Jose dominated the final fight of the manga and Joe only got as far as he did due to luck early on and his massive pool of stamina. Otherwise, the rest of the fight proved that Joe couldn't hold a candle to Jose when it came to skill.

2. Lunge's wording about the konnyaku, aka "no guard," techniques, as well as the wording of the manga, implies something that isn't true. Yes, Joe did learn his no-guard techniques by watching that kid. However, that was back in the prison and he hadn't used those abilities for most of his professional career. Joe is nearly dead at that point in the fight and his brain has been rattled like a maraca at that point, hence why he's going off instinct and bringing out his first-learned techniques. This is supported by him using counters again, something he hadn't used since his fight with Carlos. Did he still copy those techniques through sight? Yes. Did he do so by going "Oh yeah, I remember that kid doing some leaning stuff six years ago in the prison, I'm going to try that now for the first time."? No.

Also, Joe copying the corkscrew punch from Jose was an unconscious action, since he did it twice in the final round, when Joe was barely conscious, and they weren't nearly as effective as Jose's.

Finally, Joe didn't come up with the no-guard technique by himself. The evidence page Lunge uses is misleading, mainly due to the translation. As I mentioned previously, Joe copied his no guard style from Aoyama in the prison and began using them himself. The page Lunge highlights is Joe going "hey, a really good way to dodge uppercuts is to lean way back. It works best with no-guard, as a traditional guard tightens up my muscles and lowers flexibility." Danpei also was the one to teach Aoyama the no-guard dodges and footwork, as Joe wasn't willing to learn traditionally and that was the roundabout way he was going to teach Joe. Also, if Joe's no-guard was such a genius move, as stated by Danpei in the panel (which was more a reference to Joe figuring out the details of the leaning move by himself, but that's beside the point), why did Joe stop using it and start relying on traditional footwork for most of his professional career?

So in conclusion, I think Joe is a very gifted boxer, but he is far from a genius
Click to expand...
Joe is very much of a brawler, but him brushing some of this techniques off and leeroy jenkinsing his way into fights doesn't discredit him copying this techniques. This is just the way his fighting works. But yeah I'd probably settle for gifted. And I think as Sama suggested Joe should still get enhanced mobility.
 
Sorvoe551 said:
So I've previously talked at length about Ashita no Joe and have been asked to weigh in on this thread by Lunge. I've gone over all the points above and here's what I think.

AP and Speed: I've mentioned this before to Lunge, but I still believe that Harimau should be pixel-scaled to confirm the distance he's spinning. Half his height was used as a base diameter, but I don't agree with that, as that's assuming Harimau's torso + head are equal in length to his legs, which I don't believe is true, and he's very scrunched up while spinning; his back isn't straight when he does it, so some height is lost. As moment of inertia takes in total height, that calc isn't affected by scrunching, so the AP is fine. However, I still think the speed calc should be redone.

Acrobatics: I don't agree with this. Joe doesn't "outjump" Harimau, he jumps straight up to not be in Harimau's path and punches straight down. He does this tactic exactly once in the fight and the manga as a whole. You could argue that he could have sidestepped and punched then, but what hurts more, hitting someone who's spinning from the side or stopping their rotation very suddenly with a punch to the face? That's more of a testament to his boxing instincts than his acrobatic ability. Did he jump close to six feet in the air? Yes. Has he shown similar physical capabilities earlier in the manga like when he scales wall and hops fences? Yes. Do I think that qualifies him to get an acrobatics tag? No.

Intelligence: I'd settle for "Highly Gifted" when it comes to boxing. While the points Lunge made above are true, there's two points I'd like to go over:

1. While Joe has shown the ability to learn techniques quickly, he ultimately tosses it all aside with his usual strategy of "run in and keep swinging until the opponent falls" and frequently struggles against opponents that are very technical or equal in skill to him. I go over this point in more detail in my Joe vs Ippo Removal essay (here), so I'll summarize my points really quickly:

-When fighting Carlos, his definite equal at that point in the manga, neither fighter could knock the other out and the fight devolved into a street brawl that ended in a draw.

-When fighting highly technical Kim Yong-Bi, Joe tried blitzing and ultimately got his ass kicked. Joe only got his hits in after his speech about Rikishi and got a knockout opportunity after a cut on his forehead triggered Kim's PTSD from the Korean War and rendered him a screaming mess. If Kim didn't have such an affliction, this wouldn't have happened and Joe would have likely lost.

-Jose dominated the final fight of the manga and Joe only got as far as he did due to luck early on and his massive pool of stamina. Otherwise, the rest of the fight proved that Joe couldn't hold a candle to Jose when it came to skill.

2. Lunge's wording about the konnyaku, aka "no guard," techniques, as well as the wording of the manga, implies something that isn't true. Yes, Joe did learn his no-guard techniques by watching that kid. However, that was back in the prison and he hadn't used those abilities for most of his professional career. Joe is nearly dead at that point in the fight and his brain has been rattled like a maraca at that point, hence why he's going off instinct and bringing out his first-learned techniques. This is supported by him using counters again, something he hadn't used since his fight with Carlos. Did he still copy those techniques through sight? Yes. Did he do so by going "Oh yeah, I remember that kid doing some leaning stuff six years ago in the prison, I'm going to try that now for the first time."? No.

Also, Joe copying the corkscrew punch from Jose was an unconscious action, since he did it twice in the final round, when Joe was barely conscious, and they weren't nearly as effective as Jose's.

Finally, Joe didn't come up with the no-guard technique by himself. The evidence page Lunge uses is misleading, mainly due to the translation. As I mentioned previously, Joe copied his no guard style from Aoyama in the prison and began using them himself. The page Lunge highlights is Joe going "hey, a really good way to dodge uppercuts is to lean way back. It works best with no-guard, as a traditional guard tightens up my muscles and lowers flexibility." Danpei also was the one to teach Aoyama the no-guard dodges and footwork, as Joe wasn't willing to learn traditionally and that was the roundabout way he was going to teach Joe. Also, if Joe's no-guard was such a genius move, as stated by Danpei in the panel (which was more a reference to Joe figuring out the details of the leaning move by himself, but that's beside the point), why did Joe stop using it and start relying on traditional footwork for most of his professional career?

So in conclusion, I think Joe is a very gifted boxer, but he is far from a genius
Click to expand...
Also, about Jose and Kim it's really important to mention that Joe was far, far from his prime during the fight. In a fight against Jose he was pretty much dead, and in the fight against Kim he was significantly weakened from weight loss and dehydration. Also, the way Aoyama fought is quite different from the way Joe utilizes his no guard stance. At first, he seemed to just use FTE movement against Matoba, then it was mostly standing in place but still different dodging, like ducking for instance, which Joe's stance never has. And Aoyama's style is based on tiring your opponent out, and in Joe's it's to dodge Rikishi's uppercuts, deal counters and hit at unexpected angles. That scan there Aoyama recognizes his techniques in Joe's fight against Jose makes it quite clear this and no guard stance are different, because there's no way Aoyama, who was likely seeing Joe's matches, didn't know Joe used the no guard stance.
 
So, I think the necessary changes should be made on Joe's profile, since most people have agreed with the changes, but just pu Joe's intelligence "Highly Gifted" since this was the only one, that some people were iffy.
 
Honestly even with the counterarguments this guy seems like Genius fighting-wise to me. Rest seems ok anyway tho.
 
Armorchompy said:
Honestly even with the counterarguments this guy seems like Genius fighting-wise to me. Rest seems ok anyway tho.
Click to expand...
Do you think Supernatural Willpower will work? During the match with Jose, Joe could keep standing and fighting when he was practically dead, so punch drunk he couldn't see with one way and subconsciously slightly tilted to side when punching. Even Jose himself thought he was a ghost. And that's far from the only time he did something like that
 
I know that he should have been disqualified anyway cause they don't let you go on if you're that wounded

I dunno, honestly Supernatural Willpower is like, kind of wack imo, difficult to tell what qualifies
 
Armorchompy said:
I know that he should have been disqualified anyway cause they don't let you go on if you're that wounded

I dunno, honestly Supernatural Willpower is like, kind of wack imo, difficult to tell what qualifies
Click to expand...
While you're still here, could you please tell me something here?
So there are cross counters. An average one is 4x your punching strength, double cross counter (countering a counter) is 8x your strength, and triple cross counter (countering a counter of a counter) 12x. Despite that, Joe had took several double cross counters in the past, and damaged Jose with normal blows, and Jose survived a triple cross counter. This is very confusing and would essentially scale Joe to 12x his strength, but could it give him stonewall dura? He is very notorious for taking a lot of punishment, after all.
 
eeeeeh, it's either the multiplier statements not being usable or a sheer stamina feat, honestly the idea of a boxing counter just having a stable multiplier on it is kinda silly to begin with, I guess you could say Joe is a little more durable than he is strong but 12x, naaah
 
Armorchompy said:
eeeeeh, it's either the multiplier statements not being usable or a sheer stamina feat, honestly the idea of a boxing counter just having a stable multiplier on it is kinda silly to begin with, I guess you could say Joe is a little more durable than he is strong but 12x, naaah
Click to expand...
Well, those multipliers were very blatant
 
It's just punching in a specific way, it's not gonna increase your power by 12 times, obviously that can change in fiction but if they're inconsistent I don't think they're usable. Of course that's just my opinion, maybe other staff members will disagree, but I'm pretty sure of that.
 
Armorchompy said:
It's just punching in a specific way, it's not gonna increase your power by 12 times, obviously that can change in fiction but if they're inconsistent I don't think they're usable. Of course that's just my opinion, maybe other staff members will disagree, but I'm pretty sure of that.
Click to expand...
Ok, so I rechecked the manga, and it seems to use your power combined with your opponents
 
I mean, it knocked out the other guy- so that guy probably doesn't fully scale to it.
 
Armorchompy said:
I mean, it knocked out the other guy- so that guy probably doesn't fully scale to it.
Click to expand...
It’s closer to the EoS that characters actually start surviving it. But what ability would using your opponents strength be? It’s certainly not your average boxing counter
 
I think it's applying a real concept to an extent, cause when the other boxer is rushing forward and has their guard down punching them is more effective, though obviously not to this level lol
 
Armorchompy said:
I think it's applying a real concept to an extent, cause when the other boxer is rushing forward and has their guard down punching them is more effective, though obviously not to this level lol
Click to expand...
One last thing, do you think Joe needs to actually take a hit for the cross counter to work? Could he theoretically dodge if he was fast enough?
 
i dunno, if he never does it in the manga then i'd say getting hit might be important to the technique
 
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