Arrowverse CRT: What is it that Lucifer truly desires?

[KieranH10]

Lucifer doesn't seem intimidated my Amenadiel unless he takes his wings out, which are often used to show his power, other angels also do this throughout the series.

 

[Greenshifter]

So this could mean he basically amps himself from 9-B to High 7-C by taking his wings out. I'll ask my friend if he can confirm this or has a fight where Lucifer does actually fight a winged Amenadiel.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Angels simply need to HAVE their wings to be at the top of their power, they don't need to show them. Now Amenadiel obviously didn't used his full power but he was at his peak in terms of abilities, he wasn't weakened by any mean.

As for the scaling, my idea is that, since Manny is a regular/normal angel and is noted "Likely High 7-C", other regular angels like Remiel or Uriel are comparable to him and thus should scale. And since Amenadiel is a "superior" angel, he should be put to "normal" High 7-C or possibly higher.

 

[KieranH10]

That's right, the revealing of wings just reminds Lucifer that Ameadiel is still at full power, whereas Lucifer lost his and therefor lost most of his. Just having the wings is what gives the power. Not having them out.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Arkham Are you sure they just need to have them? Why is Lucifer startled every time Amenadiel shows his wings?

Edit: Thanks Kieran for clearing that up.

The "likely" thing doesn't work like that in this case, but regardless I'll just ask Andy why the likely is there in the first place.

Also any fight of a non-winged angel fighting a winged angel should be enough proof btw. (as in one of them doesn't show their wings while the other does)

 

[ArkhamDC06]

And besides, even if Amenadiel had his wings and all his powers, Lucifer wasn't so concerned about it. Yeah, angels can harm each other but even without his own wings, he more or less overpowered Amenadiel when they fought in 1x12.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah, when they don't have their wings, they are weakened. Strangely, when Amenadiel lost his, he has fallen and was reduced to a mortal while Lucifer was weakened but was still a little more powerful than his brother.

The likely part for Manny was probably because, as said above, while he can stop rain over a city, it was not shown as a AP feats.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I know this is mainly a Lucifer CRT but I might as well bring this up, should we also upgrade the CW Kryptonians by Supermans feat of being able to some-what fight against a bloodlusted Brandon Routh? I think that's good enough for a country level rating. Tyler was losing and getting overpowered but he was still shown to beable to clash with him and even knock him back on a few occasions.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

No, i don't think so. This was actually brought up in the main thread about Crisis on Infinite Earths and it was stated it wouldn't be useful to scale everyone.

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh well Superman scales to Supergirl who will be upgraded to tier 6 in this thread, I just wanted to know if Martian Manhunter still scales to Supergirl and which end of the calc we're gonna use. Chances are Arrowverse scales above Routh.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also fun fact, Manny stated how only angels and the like can hurt him and same goes for Mallus who can only be destroyed by a holy being and scared the entire time bureau. Either they are both invincible to non-magical/holy/demonic attacks or they are just really durable. In the latter scenario both of them would scale above the 7-B bomb that Einstein (or his wife) created and the Waverider which tanked said bomb as discussed here. Yes I am proposing 7-B base Lucifer OvO.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not really following Supergirl (aside from some scenes i watched on YT and researches oon the wiki) but if she is upgraded to tier 6 (wich i agree with), considering Martian is superior to her and possibly superior to Superman, yeah he should scale.

The angels cannoot be harmed by anything mortal possess. Their weaknesses are demonic weapons, powerful magic, holy artifacts and other angels (and Gods of course). Nothing the mortals can throw at them can harm them.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'm personally fine with likely far higher in the vein of DCEU Shazam

 

[Hellbeast1]

Also shall we address the Anti Monitor issue here or in another thread

 

[Greenshifter]

I'd rather keep this thread Lucifer-centric.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Ok

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So what about that tiering thing ?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Hellbeast I don't know if far higher implies that he could be even stronger than city level or just that we don't know for sure that he scales to city level. In the latter case, Mallus has a more direct feat as he was able to tank the power source of the Waverider (the thing that makes it 7-B) exploding in his face no problemo, granted it displaced him through time IIRC.

@Arkham Does he stay superior because Supergirl trains more than him and thus should get more powerful quicker than him?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So what would be the idea for the tier then ?

From what i know, Martian Manhunter is stated to be possibly the strongest being on Earth (at least Earth-38) with even Superman saying he is much more powerful than the latter.

 

[Greenshifter]

I guess a staff can decide what the tiers become.

Lucifer: At least 9-B, possibly High 7-C, likely 7-B/likely far higher (base). Higher with wings, 2-A with the Flaming Sword | At least 7-B, (likely way higher) (Demon form)

Manny: Possibly High 7-C, likely 7-B (only other angels and high level demons such as Mallus can hurt him)/likely far higher

Mallus: At least 7-B, likely far higher

Some low ends or mid ends may be unnecessary.

That statement was during season 1 and MM got hurt by opponents comparable to low 7-B Supergirl back then. I'll probably find some scaling post-Crisis on Earth X tho.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Sounds good for me (though the fact that Lucifer is much more powerful than Mallus in his true demonic should be emphazied i think).

Remiel, Azrael and Uriel should be considered as comparable to Manny and Amenadiel should be noted as superior to all except Lucifer (and maybe Mallus).

Guess that's the proof i didn't really focused on the series. Though from what i know, Supergirl was able to fight Rama Khan, who triggered the Vesuvius Eruption, wich, if they are comparable, can put them to High 7-A or higher.

 

[Greenshifter]

This is probably post crisis on earth-X so she'd be 6-B by then, Just gimme a few days and I'll find some scaling for John and upgrade everyone to 6-B.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

No prblem with with that. And yeah, fighting Rama Khan is post Crisis on Earth-X. Just a thing, why would it be 6-B to you (not really contesting it, just curious) ?

Also, what about Lucifer tier then ? 7-B ?

 

[Greenshifter]

6-B for tanking the nuke in crisis on earth-X

Well I already detailed Lucifer's tier, let's just wait to see what Matt or Andy have to add.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not sure if it is 6-B but guess it ca, work.

Well let's the waiting starting.

 

[Andytrenom]

From what I've seen, multiple possible tiers are listed in this format

"At least 9-B, possibly High 7-C to 7-B"

I am also not sure if it's okay to give him a solid 7-B key, can't decide either way since I fell of Lucifer a while back

Does Manny have any evidence for scaling to Mallus?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

No he doesn't. He has a High 7-C feat but that's all.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well he stared only powerful demons can hurt him (not kill him) so it's likely that he scales. If he doesn't scale to Mallus directly he probably still scales to the nuke (because only angels, powerful demons and powerful magic can hurt him) which scales to the Waverider which scales to Mallus.

He has no feats in his demon form key so we could make it possibly 7-B, likely higher.

Do we give Manny a 7-B high-end or likely far higher or both?

 

[Greenshifter]

Also I brought up scaling to Mallus because of Manny's speed, if Mallus stays in the massively hypersonic to sub-relativistic levels then it seems likely this applies to Manny (powerful demons should be around Mallus' speed and it makes no sense for Manny to be way slower than them) and thus all forms of Lucifer as well.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

That statement is based on the fact that, in both universes (Arrowverse and Lucifer), demons are weaker than angels in general. Granted, you have special cases like Mallus who is a particulary powerful demon but in general, angels > demons. Though after new consideration, we can still admit he can scale to an extent.

Yeah, we'll have to wait to see for that so a possibly is fine.

High-end seems better. The "far higher" more likely applies to Lucifer more. And again, Uriel, Remiel, Azrael should be comparable to Manny and Amenadiel is superior.

Do you think that if we consider Mallus can really harm him, he maybe should get 7-B to ? Or something like "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-B".

Agreed.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also we can pull the Amenadiel card and say since he is God's best warrior he should be able to contend with all demons including Mallus and scales to his speed as well and Manny scales because regular angels like Uriel, etc. can harm Amenadiel.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Agreed. Though it should be indicated that while they can harm him, Amenadiel is still very resistant and Remiel's strikes didn't really harmed him that much.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also Mazikeen is one of the most powerful demons to have ever existed and should thus scale to Mallus, she also fights Amenadiel and can hurt Lucifer.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Kind of agree. Though i have serious doubts Lucifer really "fought" her in S2 when they had their bloody duel. But yeah, she can scale.

 

[Greenshifter]

She did better against Uriel than Lucy lol.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Yeah but it wasn't because she was physically stronger. Like Uriel said, Maze is unpredictable and thus, it was difficult for him to guess her patterns and moves while Lucifer on the other hand, despite being far stronger and a better fighter in terms of skills, is pretty predictable because he is arrogant and din't really have the intention to harm him. So Uriel quickly understood how to counetr his attacks.


In any case, Lucifer must be indicated to be stronger than all of them (Mallus, Amenadiel, Uriel, Remiel, Azrael, Manny and Maze of course) even if it's a "possibly".

 

[Greenshifter]

Agreed

 

[Greenshifter]

So to summarize:

Mazikeen becomes (at least 9-B, possibly) 7-B, likely higher (As a very powerful demon and Lucifer's right hand during his time as King of Hell she should be comparable to Mallus (CW))

Amenadiel becomes (at least 9-B, possibly) 7-B, likely higher (Stronger than Mazikeen. Is God's most powerful warrior which should make him superior to demons such as Mallus (CW))

All Lucifer TV Series angels scale to them and Lucifer himself in base as well.

Lucifer in his demon form key should be (possibly) 7-B, likely higher for being stronger than with his wings since he displayed no feats in this form yet.

Manny (CW) becomes (possibly High 7-C to) 7-B, likely higher (Made the rain across a city instantly vanish, and later caused it to instantly re-appear. Should be comparable to other angels such as Uriel (Lucifer TV Series))

Everyone also scales to sub-relativistic speed from Mallus since they would get blitzed otherwise and that would beat the point of them being comparable if not outright superior to him.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Sounds good for me. For Lucifer, what would be all of his keys in general ?

 

[Greenshifter]

Well do we want a separate key with and without wings or just "even higher with wings"?