"Ares! Downgrade This Verse, and My Life is Yours!" ⌈GoW Downgrades, Part 1/???⌋

[DaReaperMan]

That's not the point of the hypothetical. Even if 1-Ups didn't exist we would still know that fireballs can kill Mario. The fact that canonically he successfully avoided ever being hit by one doesn't mean we can't regard his vulnerability to fireballs as canon info.

I'm saying he can die to fireballs and Goombas and the story would work Deagonx. if Kratos got reduced to his constituent atoms the story doesn't work. There's a difference.

It is canon information for the verse.

Prove it. Give me flat proof in GoW as a verse that failed QTEs that result in game overs are canon and just alternate timelines or something like that.

The same reason we use bad endings for info, too. There's no distinction between the failed QTE and a Bad Ending in a VN, etc.

and do those games have sequels?(That don't let you choose the ending you start from, mind you) do they have explanations for XYZ? That is the thing you're not getting Deagonx. A story is a story, what we're told is what we're told, if something deviates from that without explanation or tidbit in the sequel that lets you choose the ending, it is unusable. Plain and simple. As I said to Hasty above, I will happily stick to these guns and remove any haxes from things without canonical explanation

All games involve a variety of choices, and choices/outcomes that aren't the "canon ending" still communicate information about how the verse works.

See above, show me proof GoW as a verse has an explanation for failed QTEs that result in Game Overs.

You're free to take the stance otherwise but this more or less isn't relevant to the thread. There's no reason for us to discard that information.

Deagonx. if you're using failed QTEs to back something up the canonicity of them is absolutely relevant to the thread at hand.

Does the Story move on despite the failed QTE? If the answer is yes, it is as canon as the successful QTE. If the answer is no then the successful QTE is the sole canon. God of War Ascension goes to a game over screen if you fail that QTE. The failure is not canon.

What I said here still stands.

Good examples of the Story moving on despite a failed QTE is Mortal Kombat X and Injustice: Gods Among Us, you can get your characters beat the hell up by failing QTEs and the only thing that changes is that you start the next fight with some damage done to ya

 

[CurrySenpai]

My message repeated for some reason ignore that

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Okay but no one is saying that a succeeded QTE doesn’t take precedence over a failed one. Why would it not? That’s how the story progresses. The point is if it goes out of its way to show that the attack would have killed you via a QTE then you probably don’t resist it.

I understand that logic and, again, it's why I'm playing devil's advocate by saying that there is merit in looking at failed QTEs as forms of contention against resistances. Though to be honest, I probably should've a bit better then that by saying if specific QTEs don't show much of a difference in outcome where you effected greatly or not, it shouldn't disqualify having resistances come out of that.

But regardless I think I'm starting to argue about semantics at this point so I'll just give general agreement before I put myself in a corner

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

The difference between a bad VN ending and a QTE fail is simple. You weren't good enough to pass a QTE.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No lie, I’m feeling A LOT of passive aggressiveness from the counter arguments at least, so I’d appreciate b could be dropped since I don’t think I’ve really responded in such a way myself.

Honestly, I've edited out so many things that weren't cosher from my posts before posting them it's crazy lol

half my time typing posts is trying to get what I want to say across without landing my happy ass a warning

 

[CurrySenpai]

The difference between a bad VN ending and a QTE fail is simple. You weren't good enough to pass a QTE.

How does this not apply to bad ends in VNs? You can absolutely be bad enough to not get to a desired ending, part of VNs with this type of gameplay is reading and finding clues in order to reach the desired ending so I don’t know what’s the point of this subjective “be good enough.” Argument.

 

[Zabazab]

Just regarding the issue of QTEs, some arguments seem like intentional ignorance.

You can easily intuit that a QTE which is "Dodge if you succeed, get hit if you fail", where getting hit kills you, means you do not resist the thing that hit you.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm saying he can die to fireballs and Goombas and the story would work Deagonx. if Kratos got reduced to his constituent atoms the story doesn't work. There's a difference.

You're missing the point of the hypothetical. If Mario canonically never experienced a death in Super Mario Bros, we wouldn't conclude that we do not have any pertinent information about how fireballs would interact with Mario if they did hit him.

The bottom line is that authors/creators are capable of giving us hypothetical information in games, even if it isn't the canonical outcome, and this still informs us about what would have happened.

Prove it. Give me flat proof in GoW as a verse that failed QTEs that result in game overs are canon and just alternate timelines or something like that.

Entirely unnecessary. VNs rarely clarify that the bad endings are "alternate timelines" and they don't need to in order for the information within them to be used for lore information.

Deagonx. if you're using failed QTEs to back something up the canonicity of them is absolutely relevant to the thread at hand.

It's not relevant because it has to do with site policy and not God of War. You personally wanting to disqualify bad endings or failed quick time events is not relevant. The same way that my belief that timeline destruction shouldn't be assumed to be universe destruction level by default is not something it would be appropriate for me to bring up in a thread about a character in Marvel destroying a timeline.

 

[Georredannea15]

Just... Can we stop giving examples of different games? Just because it's in another game doesn't mean it'll be in GoW. For example, MK continue despite the failed QTE without returning you to the beginning and you end the story this way. This is something within the verse itself. (That's the context in the verse)

However, there is no such situation in GoW. In short, giving an example from Mario or another game... won't really help for discussion here, on the contrary, it will make this even longer.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

All I'll add onto the QTE/Mario comparison is that one is a game with entirely avoidable enemies. If a QTE isn't avoidable and is designed to always narratively occur, then yeah, both the winning result and the negative outcomes should be taken into consideration, because the "canon" outcome and the noncanon punishment are still tied to a narrative event in the story that always happens. The loss scenario provides context of what was happening within that moment of the narrative.

If the entire QTE is avoidable or not canon, then it's another story.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You're missing the point of the hypothetical. If Mario canonically never experienced a death in Super Mario Bros, we wouldn't conclude that we do not have any pertinent information about how fireballs would interact with Mario if they did hit him.

In the terms of SM1 we literally have reason to believe both sides, one where Mario just never gets hit and one where he died s lot but eventually prevailed. There isn't such a thing as that in GoW, it's a linear story with no alternative paths.

The bottom line is that authors/creators are capable of giving us hypothetical information in games, even if it isn't the canonical outcome, and this still informs us about what would have happened.

Flooding our verses with non-canon information isn't healthy Deagonx.

Entirely unnecessary. VNs rarely clarify that the bad endings are "alternate timelines" and they don't need to in order for the information within them to be used for lore information.

They indeed do, with 2 exceptions I've stated repeatedly

1. It's a game without a sequel where the whole thing about it is to make choices, in this case, there is no true "Canonical" path, even if there's a supposed "true ending".
2. If that game has a sequel, and it lets you pick an ending to go from(Dayshift at Freddy's 2 does this), then all call be considered.

From what you speak of below, there's no site standard to speak of on this, supported by the fact the canon page mentions neither Bad Endings nor failed QTEs nor even Visual Novels in general. In other words: we're arguing our own views on the matter, nothing more, nothing less.

Also, I'd need an Admin to make a Staff Thread on that kind of thing anyway

It's not relevant because it has to do with site policy and not God of War. You personally wanting to disqualify bad endings or failed quick time events is not relevant. The same way that my belief that timeline destruction shouldn't be assumed to be universe destruction level by default is not something it would be appropriate for me to bring up in a thread about a character in Marvel destroying a timeline.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

When skill issue is an actual argument used to downgrade a verse

Honestly guys it's obvious no party is convincing the other. Sadly we are not on even grounds (and don't take this as an offense) but DeagonX is staff so his word will sadly always be above ours even if incorrect.

At this point just wait for more staff and (don't take offense again) if they have common sense then the skill issue argument will die quickly.

As for the rest we all made our points known, no need to keep extending a 5 pages thread when the main supporters haven't even gotten here.

With that I end my 10 minute shit break

 

[Deagonx]

In the terms of SM1 we literally have reason to believe both sides, one where Mario just never gets hit and one where he died s lot but eventually prevailed. There isn't such a thing as that in GoW, it's a linear story with no alternative paths.

I just responded to this exact sentiment in your last comment. It was a hypothetical. I am saying even if 1-ups weren't a thing or if the "story didn't work" if Mario ever died, we would still be in the clear to use the information that Mario dies to fireballs.

Flooding our verses with non-canon information isn't healthy Deagonx.

Good thing God of War 2 is canon.

They indeed do

You're free to take this stance, we have no such policy. I am not interested in persuading you that our current approach is valid. The basic concept of a quick time event is the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, the writing of the event is pointless.

From what you speak of below, there's no site standard to speak of on this, supported by the fact the canon page mentions neither Bad Endings nor failed QTEs nor even Visual Novels in general. In other words: we're arguing our own views on the matter, nothing more, nothing less.

We wouldn't need a page to say that we can allow information from canon games. We currently use bad endings on a variety of VN pages and there is plenty of other such information on game pages that regards how something works in a series of events that are not part of the "canon version" of how it went. We won't place artificial limitations on storytelling in a medium that is meant to provide us with that sort of exploration of outcomes.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I just responded to this exact sentiment in your last comment. It was a hypothetical. I am saying even if 1-ups weren't a thing or if the "story didn't work" if Mario ever died, we would still be in the clear to use the information that Mario dies to fireballs.


Good thing God of War 2 is canon.


You're free to take this stance, we have no such policy. I am not interested in persuading you that our current approach is valid. The basic concept of a quick time event is the consequences of failure. If there are no consequences, the writing of the event is pointless.

We wouldn't need a page to say that we can allow information from canon games. We currently use bad endings on a variety of VN pages and there is plenty of other such information on game pages that regards how something works in a series of events that are not part of the "canon version" of how it went. We won't place artificial limitations on storytelling in a medium that is meant to provide us with that sort of exploration of outcomes.

We would also be clear to use the successful QTE too...

Oh, that's right. God of War uses a lot of QTEs that be failed or succeeded in. Do you, as a staff, REALLY want to deal with the fallout that comes with all the circular scaling your line of arguments cause? For multiple verses, not just God of War?

 

[Deagonx]

We would also be clear to use the successful QTE too...

Yes, of course. The same way we can also use the "Good Ending" of a VN. We are in complete agreement there.

Do you, as a staff, REALLY want to deal with the fallout that comes with all the circular scaling your line of arguments cause? For multiple verses, not just God of War?

Considering that we already do this, I don't know why I would be concerned about it. It hasn't been an issue. Alternative endings/outcomes just answer hypothetical questions. The failed QTE just gives you the canon answer to the question "what would've happened if Kratos didn't react quickly enough here?" Same thing with bad endings.

It's a medium of storytelling that allows for multiple choices and the ability to see their outcomes.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Considering that we already do this, I don't know why I would be concerned about it. It hasn't been an issue.

Show Me. For QTEs specifically, mind you.

Alternative endings/outcomes just answer hypothetical questions. The failed QTE just gives you the canon answer to the question "what would've happened if Kratos didn't react quickly enough here?" Same thing with bad endings.

And they can also present massive problems in both lore and scaling. More specifically, cases of circular scaling that wouldn't exist otherwise, AKA, extremely unhealthy shit for the wiki.

It's a medium of storytelling that allows for multiple choices and the ability to see their outcomes.

And it can also break established lore/scaling. This ain't something to brush off, if we already do this then that needs to change for the health of the wiki.

I'm gonna make one thing clear Deagonx: Circular scaling instances are unacceptable and something needs to give when they pop up. If that something that needs to give is Site Standard I will put time and effort into the thread to change it.

 

[Planck69]

Before I get into this, let me preface this by saying that I will be on a plane for the next few days. Make your responses with the knowledge I likely won't touch this thread any further.

So alright then. Might as well settle this;

Greek Godhood​

Resistance to Divine Magic​

Gods are assumed to resist the basic properties of their own magic. There are a couple of supposed examples of individual gods resisting their own magic, but there is no evidence of this being a broad trait of godhood in general. It’s just assumed that they can resist their magic innately, with no source to back it up. Okay then.

But what about Zeus, Poseidon, and the like? They appear to resist their own abilities, right? Uh, not quite. Both scans of Zeus “resisting” his own lightning showcase him being damaged and staggered by it, which doesn’t really read as him “resisting” it in any capacity. Same goes for Hades; His attacks, when reflected back at him, knock him back and cause him to roar in pain. In Poseiden’s case, the only reason given for his “resistance” is him shooting lightning bolts out of his hands. This isn’t a resistance, unless we want to give every spellcaster in the history of forever a resistance to their own magic for the same exact reason.

Kratos “adapting” to Atlas’ magic is also bad. He doesn’t adapt to it; It is his own power that he is learning to control. Any character given a new power, without understanding what it is or what it does, would find it difficult to wield at first, but they can of course learn to do so through focus and practice (which Kratos does so). This does not mean such characters innately resist other people using similar magic on them; If I learn how to use a fireball spell, blow myself up the first time I use it, and then learn how to control it better, that doesn’t mean I’m suddenly immune to other people chucking fireballs at me.

All that leaves is this scene from Ragnarok, where Thor is consumed by his own electricity after his death. The implication is supposed to be that after he loses his soul - the source of his magic - he no longer has the means to resist his own magic, thus allowing the lightning to overtake his body. This is wrong for a few reasons. First is that this is described as lightning consuming his body, when what we see is that his body dissolves into a bunch of particles. Sure, there are some sparks of electricity here and there, but it is certainly not what any reasonable person would describe as “consuming his body”. Second is that there’s… not really a reason for this to be Thor’s own lightning? There’s no clear source for it, and I find it highly unlikely that Thor’s final actions as a dying man would be to conjure up a couple of tiny sparks of electricity to literally kill himself faster and not even leave a corpse behind for his daughter to bury or mourn over. Would be kind of a dick move, if I’m being honest!

I also take issue with Thor resisting lightning in the first place, since it’s unsourced and the only other scan for it involves Thor being visibly damaged by lightning, but that’s neither here nor there. I should also mention that this is being cross-scaled between Greek and Norse deities, despite there being no indication that the two should share physiological traits (that there is a Greek Godhood section with its own unique abilities shows that GoW supporters are aware of this).

While there may well be examples of gods resisting their own magic, it is very clearly not a universal property of them, as Zeus and Hades have shown. If such examples exist, they should be attributed solely to the individual who showcases the resistance.
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The resistance hinges on the innate properties of their magics not actively harming them, as they can when another wielder specifically uses them. It is not a matter of pure mastery given the very same magic given as a tiny fraction carries those properties. In fact, most of this seems to misunderstand where the reasoning comes from regardless; Thor's body being consumed is confirmed by developers as well as visuals.

The specific abilities inherent in their magic doesn't affect them. You're conflating this with some odd notion that resistance means complete immunity to the attack potency said magic also carries. Not to mention the mastery argument... comes from nothing. You are welcome to supply scans for that but until then, I'm not making undue assumptions for the hell of it.

Primordials​

Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities], Darkness Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Earth Manipulation, & Death Manipulation​

Actually, all of these abilities are valid… for the characters who use them. These are listed not on each individual primordial’s page, but on the primordial page itself, treating these abilities as though they’re something the primordials can do collectively. Thanatos has nothing to do with sleep or dreams, while Morpheus has nothing to do with death, so don’t go around cross-scaling their abilities like this.
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This is a nothing burger of a section, given no one actually does that.

Kratos​

Extrasensory Perception & Information Analysis [Demigod Key]​

This is not meant to remove these abilities entirely, just removing bad justifications for them (and slightly downgrading them by extension). There’s quite a lot of feats going for these, so let’s break down the pertinent scans going for them.


The tip of the staff is literally glowing blue.


There is no indication that this apparition would need some kind of enhanced senses or ESP in order to perceive. This feat moreso reads as “Kratos can see the color red”, which I would certainly hope he is capable of.


The passage in question states that Zeus had taught Kratos to be wary of strange weapons, and Kratos does not innately know what the spear is capable of (although he is aware that it is dangerous). He is simply referring back to past experiences in order to draw a conclusion here, and is not something attributable to some kind of information analysis. Speaking of past experiences…


This is a dishonest reading of what is actually presented. I’ll defer to Dammerung on this one, though, since his breakdown is pretty detailed.

This is a perplexing statement, as Kratos does no such thing in the cited novel. The cited passage “Old magic... We met a witch in the woods, she is knowing of the old ways," is presented in a dishonest manner. Mimir, in the sentence immediately preceding that one, says “The trick is, we need to find someone who can re-animate my head, using the old magic.” Kratos didn’t discern Freya’s ability to resurrect, Mimir brought it up and Kratos made an inference with the information he had available. This conversation occurs in Chapter 29, not Chapter 28. (The novel actually only uses the word “resurrect” once, in Chapter 29, said by Mimir: “Brother, in case you fail to resurrect me…”)

“Freya herself due to years of inactivity, being unsure if she could do it again,” As established before, Kratos determined Freya was their best option after seeing her perform magic (in chapters 12 and 13, although the terms “old magic” and “old ways” do not appear in those chapters) and Mimir saying the old magic could be used to re-animate his head. She was, as Atreus described, a witch, and their best option. (Humorously, Kratos tells her that Mimir “claimed you could revive his head,” despite Mimir instead stating that “he is willing to chance it.”) This says more about Kratos' character, that he is willing to take chances based on previous observations and ability to listen to and respect his son’s observations, rather than his ability to instantly discern objective truths.
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Neutral to the first scan given it's one of what 5 different supporting scans on the ability page? As for the second part, Kratos given that he wouldn't have any context to discern what magic Freya can and cannot use and wouldn't exactly wager an unknown man's life on it.

Immortality Negation [1, 2, 3, 4, 6, & 7] [Demigod Key]​

Kratos mainly has this via killing undead legionnaires, which can shrug off fatal wounds and resurrect after death. The first scan showcases how Kratos pins the heads of two of them to a wall, noting how this was done so other warriors could hack them apart at their leisure; Notably, this does not kill them, and also proves that anybody can kill undead legionnaires so long as they can wound them beyond what they are capable of regenerating from. Kratos is merely aware of the limits of their immortality, and knows how to exploit that. That leads me into the other scans, where Kratos shatters a frozen legionnaire, and then tears apart another one with his bare hands - These scans showcases that Kratos can’t kill legionnaires normally, and he must very specifically tear them apart to kill them (you can see them fall apart before reforming). He is not “negating” their immortality, but rather destroying them beyond what their immortality allows them to survive (a more extreme example would be giving someone regen negation for erasing a guy who can regenerate severed limbs from existence).

The remainder of the justification is completely unsourced.

Also, type 1 immortality negation isn’t a thing. Kratos can kill old people, I guess, good for him.
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Saying Kratos cannot kill legionaries via normal means given they're the basic grunts he tears apart within minutes of booting up a game is ....certainly a choice. Type 1 can go I suppose.

Power Nullification [Demigod Key]​

Kratos has this because he can supposedly nullify Castor and Pollux’s magic with every strike. Aside from how there is very little visual indication of this (the green glow emanated by their weapons briefly vanishes in the second scan, but returns in under a second), it also just isn’t a logical interpretation. The Amulet of Uroboros is a magic item, whose effects must be activated in order to take place. It isn’t passively warping time or anything. So when Kratos “disrupts” its magic by hitting Castor and Pollux, he’s actually just interrupting them and briefly preventing them from tapping into their magic. This is, of course, something that happens in countless video games (even down to TTRPGs, with mechanics like concentration checks), and isn’t necessarily a form of power null so much as it is a weakness of magic users.

A more astute observer would notes that this justification is very similar to the one already listed in his reactive evolution justification; It seems that the page is insistent on the idea that he was being affected by the amulet, but grew to resist it, but he also nullified it, while ignoring that those are incompatible with one another. We can clearly see that Kratos doesn’t nullify its magic, so clearly reactive evolution is the better interpretation, right? Well, uh,
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Not particularly. He can nullify the effects Castor and Pollux put on themselves and cancel their self-age manipulation. He himself is affected and adapts to it later on. This isn't incongruence, it's a basic misunderstanding of what's on the page.

Reactive Evolution [Demigod Key]​

So, Kratos is supposedly affected by the Amulet of Uroboros, before adapting to resist its effects. This is backed by two WoG statements, saying he was indeed affected by the Amulet. But does Kratos ever actually fight back against it later in the fight? Well, uh… Castor and Pollux try to use it against Kratos, but Kratos physically overpowers them and prevents them from using the Amulet before that can happen. Knocking a weapon out of someone’s hands, or punching them in the gut before they kill you, is not “adapting” to shit. As explained further below, Kratos also demonstrably does not resist the Amulet of Uroboros when it matters most, so he very clearly did not adapt to it. But what about the Sisters of Fate? I’ll be covering that down below, alongside Kratos’ general resistance to their abilities.
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He specifically doesn't remove their amulet from them until the very end of their battle. And what do you mean, "when it matters most"? At no point do the aging and temporal effects of the amulet actually harm him during the battle.

Resistance to Sirens’s Hax [Sound Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Explosion Manipulation, Body Puppetry, & Death Manipulation] [Demigod Key]​

Quite the mouthful, huh? Anyways, Kratos is said to be able to resist the abilities of the sirens, which have these effects. The source for this claim shows Kratos being affected by the song, and then sprinting headlong towards the sirens because he’s being manipulated. Not a good look, but surely he adapts and overpowers the effects, right? Well… in a manner of speaking, yes. He’s able to very briefly use the images of his deceased wife and daughter to power through the mental dominion held over him, taking the opportunity to deafen himself using the cacophony of Zeus’ thunder. Prior to this, the siren’s screech of anger broke the spell for long enough for Kratos to picture his wife in the first place, requiring no intervention from Kratos. However, he also notes how his hearing was returning, and questions if he had waited too long - Kratos himself knows this feat is not something he can replicate on a whim, so attributing it to some kind of innate resistance is just silly. For the record, the above explanation of Kratos deafening himself occurs moments before this cropped scan, so that’s also invalid.

There is another instance of him doing this later in the series. However, we yet again see him getting affected by the siren’s hax. The only reason he’s able to break free is because the siren finishes draining his energy, lets him go, and is caught off guard by Kratos’ inhuman strength even in a weakened state.
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The Sirens attacks can not only be broken away from in-game but he visibly keeps attacking through it anyway. Something I've noticed throughout this CRT is that for whatever reason, the positions of primary and secondary canon switched places for you.

Life Absorption, Magic Absorption, Energy Absorption, & Power Absorption [Demigod Key]​

I have no qualms with the abilities themselves, but GoW supporters frequently act as though Kratos’ mere touch is enough to cause these effects. This is not the case - In every single scan provided, it is made quite clear that he only does this on enemies that he slays.

Via his bare hands. As we see in the Elysium Fields.

Causality Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

The Amulet of Uroborus can rewind and stop time. That’s it. It manipulates time. It does not directly influence past events, it just rewinds time.

We had a whole debate on this in the original upgrade thread, so this comes off as more just denying it for the sake of it.

Resistance to Petrification [Demigod Key]​

This stems from how Kratos can supposedly break free of the gorgon’s gaze, which petrifies those affected. Backing this up is a WoG statement regarding how Kratos was completely turned to stone, and not merely coated in an outer layer of stone. The question asked is a great example of a leading question. The wording presents a false binary: “does that mean he resists petrification or is the gorgon stare just weak so everyone can break out of it due to how it functions?” The options here for the developer, Bruno Valezquez, are that the gorgon stare is too weak to kill anybody, or Kratos can resist petrification. Does Bruno care about how powerful the gorgon stare is perceived? That’s unclear, but the asker certainly makes their stance on the potency of the stare known in a very unnecessary manner. (Say, for example, I called them the “whiny” or “ignorant” asker. Might it change your perception of them? It should of me.) There are a number of other potential ways that could have been worded (eg, “or could anybody break out of the gorgon stare if they were strong enough?”) which would have presented the option as a more neutral choice unassociated with negative connotations such as “weak.” The more important takeaway is what Bruno says in response: “...Kratos, although mostly encased in stone at that point…” He is not turned completely into stone. He explicitly is only “mostly encased in stone,” which means that not only is he not “just covered by a layer of it outside,” he is, in fact, not even entirely covered by a layer of it outside. This is an erroneous interpretation of the developer’s comments.

Credit to this document for the above explanation. However, it missed a vital piece of the puzzle; We actually have direct confirmation from Kratos himself that he doesn’t resist petrification. He says so here, noting that a Gorgon’s touch would be instantly lethal to him. This isn’t a case of Kratos underestimating himself, either. This passage happens in the GoW 2 novelization, whereas the feat of him “resisting” it comes from GoW 1.
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A lot of this is just calling out Bruno's WoG, which is odd given him breaking out of petrification happens in-game. A basic showcase that anyone familiar with the setting has seen.

Resistance to Poison & Acid [Demigod Key]​

The supposed feat is of Kratos breaking free from the chimera’s acidic poison, but we can see that this isn’t the case. He is left dazed and damaged, and is only “freed” by the chimera’s snake head tossing him around like a ragdoll. Also, “breaking free” from poison isn’t a resistance. He is merely leaving an area suffused with poison, while he takes damage while in that area of effect. I don’t “resist fire manipulation” for walking out of a burning building.

You break out by shaking it off in-game. This isn't him just suffering said effect and it wearing off.

Resistance to Age Manipulation, Precognition, Clairvoyance, Time Manipulation, & Time Stop [Demigod Key]​

I’ve discussed before why I don’t believe the feats pertaining to Pollux and Castor’s abilities would give Kratos any sort of special hax, but he does, at the very least, resist their abilities, right? Well, in the scenes discussed before, Kratos is usually able to push away or interrupt the duo before they can call upon the full extent of their powers. It’s difficult to determine if Kratos is actually resisting their powers in these scenes, since they don’t really get a chance to properly use them. Still, there is one place we can see Kratos clearly exposed to their powers - A failed QTE. So, does Kratos no-sell their powers regardless and piledrive them into the ground? Is he left damaged or dazed, but still able to fight despite the power of time itself being brought to bear against him? No. He instantly dies. This justification is so bad it almost makes me want to “resist poison manipulation” (ie; drink bleach and instantly kill myself).
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This is using a failed QTE as justification for a power removal? Yeah, I don't need to say why this is silly. Not to mention, the green energy is already enveloping him to begin with, rendering the dodging argument moot.

God of War is a singular continuity with no alternate story path. A failed QTE is not and will never be canon.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation/Absorption/Deconstruction/Transmutation [+ Associated Abilities] [Demigod Key]​

Kratos has this via fighting off the Arms of Hades. All well and good, but the problem is that this isn’t really a resistance. As seen in the scan, Kratos is tearing them apart while they aren’t even so much as scratching him. The manual backs this up by emphasizing how Kratos should keep the arms at bay with his attacks. When he is grabbed by them, they have no problem affecting him with their abilities. Him being able to break free can likely be attributed to how their effects aren’t instantaneous, giving anyone the opportunity to break out should they have the strength to do so. In short, what Kratos is doing isn’t a resistance, and he is visually shown to not resist it. There’s also the furies torturing Kratos in “body, mind, and soul”, but that is a very common turn of phrase that does not literally mean affecting someone’s soul.
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Kratos objectively does get tagged by the arms and isn't affected by it in-game. Alecto is specifically called the Fury of the Soul. Calling it turn of phrase doesn't fit here.

Resistance to Power Absorption [Demigod Key]​

This is the justification. Kratos doesn’t get his magic absorbed, sure, but that’s only because he pushes away the Priest of Fate attempting to do so before he actually gets a chance to absorb his powers. Obviously, if he doesn’t even get to use his power absorption in the first place, then Kratos doesn’t need to resist anything. If Kratos doesn’t break free of their grip, his magic gets absorbed just fine.

The hand is visibly glowing with said ability, so it's not really a case of pushing him off before he can fire it. The rest goes back to the "failed QTE" argument.

Resistance to Ice Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

Kratos is unphased by Typhon’s breath, which can flash freeze on contact. What’s the source for Typhon’s breath flash freezing on contact? Kratos saying that it would kill him instantly.

The source is the novel itself. And it visibly doesn't in the medium that takes precedent over this. Simple as.

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation & Paralysis Inducement [God Key]​

Kratos is unphased by Zeus’ lightning, which can paralyze people. What’s the source for Zeus’ lightning paralyzing people? Kratos being paralyzed by his lightning.

He's having his godhood stripped away and can still move in that same scan. He just doesn't resist the power nullification at that point. That's not paralysis.

Resistance to Madness Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

Kratos was able to resist the torture of the Furies, which can drive people insane. What’s the source for their torture driving people insane? Kratos being driven insane by their torture. I really don’t know how to explain that your source for a character resisting something should not be them explicitly being affected by that thing.

I'd say the flavor text of him going mad wouldn't take precedent over the in-game showcase of being fine and having his faculties, if still initially affected by their illusions, something that precedes the capture to start with.

Resistance to Power Nullification [Demigod Key]​

This stems from two scans, the first of which involves his clone throwing Zeus’ Fury - a lightning bolt that can negate magic - at Kratos… and missing. Of course, I shouldn’t have to say that having an attack miss you is not a resistance. The other justification is from resisting the waters of the River Lethe, which can erase the memory of one’s existence. There is no reason why these scans would indicate any form of power nullification.

This is just a bad gif given you can sit still and get it and visibly use your powers just fine. Genuinely, this comes off as padding.

Resistance to Memory & Mind Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

At the end of the first God of War, Kratos attempts to free himself from the nightmares that plague his mind by killing himself with the intent to erase his memories in the river Lethe. His profile says he resisted this (or that he should resist it, but who cares), which is made evident by the fact that he retains his memories after Athena raises him from the body of water he jumped into. Two problems with this. First, Kratos never entered the Lethe. The novel specifies that he fell into the Aegean sea (presumably, he would’ve killed himself, and then erase his memories in the Lethe after he arrived in the Underworld). Second, the fact that Kratos “resists” something that he intended to have affect him is very strange - Not unheard of for a character to resist their chosen means of suicide, but it casts doubt on the validity of that resistance.
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His intent is irrelevant here to start with. And the Aegean isn't what he resists so I do not know why this is brought up. The waters of the Lethe lie within the Styx and he's still fine after being within it at that.

Resistance to Power of the Fates + Enhanced RE [Demigod & God Keys]​

Again, credit to Dammerung and his research document for the breakdown listed below. The claims for each ability are listed below.


The Sisters of Fate discuss cutting off his thread of fate in the cited passage (because he is resisting their efforts to manipulate them and causing their work to fall apart in the process), but they do not actually cut his thread. “You and Atropos are responsible, meddling individually. Cut the thread now!" Clotho plucked it again, but the vibrations died out quickly. Too quickly."

The thing is, we can set up a timeline for this. Kratos wasn’t immune to the Sisters of Fate at all. He was only able to escape the Underworld due to outside interference on the part of Lahkesis, who acted impetuously and didn’t consider the consequences of her actions (Chapter Eight).

This is because Lahkesis is bored with the state of things. Kratos entertains her. She withholds the information that she meddled carelessly with his thread of fate because she’s mad at her sisters and wants to see how he’ll change things up (Chapter Nine).

Atropos discovers her meddling in Chapter 13, which is actually the precipitating incident that leads to her sending out her projection at infinite speeds to speak with Iris.

I don’t want to post too many pages from the novel, but this pattern continues. It’s not that Kratos is immune, it’s that Atropos and Lahkesis are constantly meddling with his thread of fate to screw with each other as much as with him, and only realize the mistake they’ve made when it’s too late to change things without causing massive amounts of unforeseen consequences (Chapter 28).

There is another issue with this, one that Dammerung overlooked in his document. As shown in the GoW 2 novelization, even well after every other scan shown here (this particular scene takes place in chapter 46), Kratos inadvertently severs his own thread of fate - The implications of this are twofold. Obviously, if he severed his own thread, then the sisters never cut it in the first place (otherwise it wouldn’t still be there for Kratos to cut), contradicting the claim that he resisted the sisters’ attempts to sever it (or that it couldn’t be severed in the first place, having gone slack; Kratos cuts it just fine regardless). Beyond that, though, Kratos is crippled by this action, being brought to his knees and feeling agony akin to every muscle and nerve in his body being ripped apart. I would not call this a “resistance” to anything.

Then there’s the issue of the scans themselves. These two present a very obvious problem - In both of them, outside forces are credited for Kratos’ victories, not Kratos himself. Lahkesis orchestrates his victory as mentioned in the first scan, and Gaia was in part responsible for Kratos’ victory over Alrik by tampering with his destiny. It is the infighting between gods and their kin that save Kratos from a doomed fate time and time again, not Kratos “adapting” to his destiny. This removal would also apply to his “enhanced” supernatural willpower in his god key.
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All of this rambling ignores the specific scan where the showcase of his outright resistance happens; when Clotho seeks to affect Kratos and cripple him with said threads and completely fails to do anything to him. The rest of the novel and its showcases are a build up to the fact that they completely don't control his destiny anymore, where that and the arrogance of the Sisters contributes to their downfall. Something that is followed up immediately by the Sisters of Fate stating verbatim that he developed a will independent of the fate they set for him, that's a separate issue from Gaia.

Multiple such instances in the novel are listed in that same debunk where Kratos ignores a set fate for and both sisters misapply blame to the other, which leads to further misunderstanding, something that is furthered along by others, like Hermes, specifically using that confusion to his benefit.

That he feels a strange pain from doing so doesn't really contradict that; it's a strange function of holding his life thread. A life thread that he severs and yet manages to go to battle Zeus right afterwards with little issue.

Also, Kratos shouldn’t resist life manipulation, sleep manipulation, or empathic manipulation anyways. The sisters only use life manipulation to forge new life, which Kratos does not necessarily need to resist. Sleep manipulation involves waking people up (not putting them to sleep, so effectively useless for trying to stop Kratos in the first place), and empathic manipulation involves playing matchmaker and making ugly people attractive (Kratos already ***** Hard, so this is unnecessary).

This paragraph is just a nothingburger. Just because one ability leads to a subset of many abilities doesn't prevent them from using those abilities separately

Martial Arts & Weapon Mastery [God Key]​

Before you kill me for this one, let me explain. Kratos is a skilled warrior, nobody is denying that. This removal is solely in regards to the idea that he’s somehow mastered all forms of combat of weaponry across all of time, as he can see all wars and conflicts across time due to that being his domain. However… that doesn’t mean he really understands what he’s seeing. He knows some basics here and there, but it’s made quite clear that the arms and armor of ages yet to come are things he struggles to grasp. Kratos can “see” people using guns in the future, but he clearly wouldn’t know how to actually effectively use a gun as an extension of that. This would also apply to Ares.
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He does but has no context for what he is seeing.

Resistance to Status Effect Inducement [God Key]​

This stems from Kratos “resisting” Helios’ light. Which he does not actually do. He is explicitly pushed back and stunned by it, and can only walk forward if he blocks out the light with his hands (if he ever lowers his hands, he is immediately pushed back and stunned again).

Fair.

Resistance to Radiation [God Key]​

First of all, Kratos vibing in Ares’ dimension happened in GoW 1, prior to him becoming a god, so idk why that’s in this key. That aside, just because a pocket dimension has a space-like background doesn’t inherently mean that the area of the dimension that a character is transported to lacks oxygen or is rife with cosmic radiation. It’s not really a location bound by the typical rules of how space works in relation to earth, so more context would need to be given for us to assume it’s like space in ways other than size and visual appearance.

We treat the sliver of Hope he wielded as separate from demigod power. And the rest of this can be summed up as "we see space but we don't know its space" for some reason. It makes an assumption based on nothing that can be seen. The basic information we get is that this is a dimension with a starry backdrop and what is seemingly a galaxy. Extrapolating further from that is based on little.

The second justification is just straight up baffling. Kratos witnesses the use of atomic weapons in WW2, remarking how he knows they cannot harm him. Contextually, this occurs while he is viewing acts of war across all of time; He is not physically present to experience the nuclear fallout of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it’s more like he’s watching a movie. In that same vein, him knowing he wouldn’t be affected is because he knows what he’s experiencing is a vision, and not the physical reality he occupies, just as I know a train coming towards the screen in a movie cannot hurt me (unlike those stupid Frenchies)

In the context of that part, it doesn't make sense. He's specifically noting that nothing can harm him anymore right after that, which fits in more with his godhood and superiority over mortal means.

Resistance to Advanced Non-Physical Interaction [Power of Hope Key]​

Yes, this is as stupid as it sounds. For starters, Kratos isn’t incorporeal. You don’t even need NPI to interact with him. Fear Zeus also doesn’t have “advanced” NPI, nor is there any reason why he should. Zeus also… does interact with Kratos. He doesn’t phase through him, his attacks physically clash against Kratos and cause Zeus to physically recoil. This would be impossible if Kratos was on a level of incorporeality that Zeus couldn’t affect (which, again, Kratos isn’t even incorporeal in the first place).

Nothing about this is right.
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I can agree with removal of this resistance.

Weather Manipulation [Norse Key]​

Kratos has this because his presence caused a mini-Fimbulwinter upon his entrance to the Nine Realms. However, the scan only says these two events occurred at the same time. Nothing says Kratos himself caused the Fimbulwinter. This would be like saying I have passive explosion manipulation because I was born two weeks before 9/11 (verified true Fuji Fact btw).

This is just a basic deduction. At worst, I can see this becoming a Possibly rating but a realm wide freeze at the same time Kratos reaches the Norse Realms isn't being presented as a funny coincidence here.

Accelerated Development [Norse Key]​

Again, credit to Dammerung for this one. Their willingness to debate semantics is impressive, and kind of scary if I’m being honest?

“due to having lost most of his strength from his God of War days and having become less muscular than before to the point where he was a shell of his former self…” I own the God of War 2018 novelization and can confirm that the phrase “shell of his former self” is not mentioned in the novel once. (And that the word “shell” is only used once, in chapter 11.) This statement cites chapter 48 of the novelization, which includes the line "Appearing much younger, beardless, and more muscular..." when Kratos sees a vision of his younger self in Helheim. The problem here is that the phrase “shell of his former self” is used to interpret the passage to hyperbolize Kratos' loss of strength, signifying a dramatic change that leaves it nigh unrecognizable. I would say that the addition of a phrase that isn’t used in the description is improper. Simply saying “having become much less muscular than before” is more accurate. This would not be worth mentioning on its own, but, as is evidenced by the next section, is part of a dubious pattern for this section.

1. “to eventually ending up regaining his old strength within mere seconds and completely turning the tide in the fight, effortlessly ragdolling and defeating Baldur.” Anybody who has played the introduction to 2018’s God of War, or watched the video cited as evidence for this claim, knows that this statement at best is a gross mischaracterization of what happens. Nothing about Kratos' first victory against Baldur is effortless, and the fight ends with Kratos literally covered in blood, limping back to his home and wondering if he and Atreus are ready to face the journey which he now knows awaits them. This section in particular is using inappropriate language to mischaracterize game events to make Kratos seem more impressive. It also makes a wild assertion, that Kratos regains his old strength within seconds, that is simply not supported by statements made in the game or in the accompanying lore, and is instantly contradicted by the very next line in this section of the VSBattles Wiki page.
2. “The entire journey revolves around Kratos slowly regaining his old strength from his old days as the God of War in order to protect and better prepare his son Atreus to face the harsh Norse Worlds…” This sentence is literally the one after the sentence claiming Kratos regained “his old strength within mere seconds.” Much like the status of hope within Kratos after the events of God of War 3 (WPHR, Section 1), this contradicts claims made for Kratos and makes following the events of the games impossible. Kratos cannot both slowly regain his old powers over the course of a journey and regain his old powers within seconds of a single battle.
3. “...as confirmed by numerous other statements.” The funny thing about this section is that it flat out disproves the claims made earlier in this section. Kratos is not a shell of himself. "He's still a highly competent warrior, but is constantly restraining himself…”, “...Kratos is supposed to be a little rusty in this fight…”, "You get the sense that he's older and that he's kind of shaking off the cobwebs", and “"...when Baldur shows up, that's like knocking the rust off. So he was a little rusty..." are much more nuanced and restrained than “he was a shell of his former self.” If the author of that statement was interested in using an idiom to describe Kratos' state accurately, they would have had a plethora of statements to choose from. (Saying Kratos was rusty would be the most accurate choice, given that it appears multiple times throughout those cited statements.) I am comfortable concluding that their word choice in NEI Section 3 (that’s this section btw [Fuji Editorial Moment]) was intentional, deliberate, and inaccurate. Kratos likewise regains his old strength over the course of GOW 2018 instead of during his first fight with Baldur. Eric Williams literally says as much in his interview: “as that game progresses, the rust really starts to come off... inbetween finishing Baldur off in the last game... he and Atreus have been training, so this is Kratos getting really back into it."

For a TL;DR of the points made -

• Kratos did not “effortlessly overpower” Baldur, as after the fight he is severely wounded, limping, and questioning of his ability to carry out the journey before him.
• Kratos’ improvement is done over the course of a long journey, contradicting the previous claim that he reclaimed his lost strength in a matter of seconds.
• Kratos’ improvement is treated as him just being a little rusty and getting back into the swing of things, rather than developing faster than normal. It’s like how you never forget how to ride a bike, except replace “ride” with “slaughter” and “bike” with “gods”.

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This is needling over semantics by an offsite user. I shouldn't really even have to touch this but to keep things short and to avoid claims of "dodging the debunk";

• He does objectively start doing far better against Baldur by the end of that battle than at the start where he is thrown around by the latter.
• This is a separate showcase of Accelerated Development.
• I mean, yes. The whole issue is how fast he gets stronger and more capable.

Resistance to Telepathy & Reactive Evolution [Norse & Ragnarok Keys]​

For the record, the Atreus thing is valid, so resistance to telepathy stays (but is somewhat nerfed). These both stem from Kratos adapting to and resisting Heimdall’s attempts to read his mind. This is, devoid of context, fine. The problem is that in this fight, Kratos wields the Draupnir spear, a weapon forged specifically to counter Heimdall's abilities by overloading his senses. You can't really take an instance of Kratos wielding his Anti-Heimdall spear (the spear forged for the purpose of ******* over Heimdall) and use that to prove that Kratos wreck's Heimdall's shit innately. There's also the problem of how, if Kratos can just resist/adapt Heimdall's hax by himself, then him needing the Draupnir spear at all makes 0 goddamn sense.
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He wields it get an edge and no longer needs it as the fight progresses. This is something we've tackled before already, since the Spear itself has no specific "anti-telepathy" ability.

Resistance to Sleep Manipulation [Ragnarok Key]​

Credit to Dammerung again, because I’m lazy and couldn’t think of anything new to add anyways.

"Sleep Manipulation (Scaling from his Demigod and God selves. Has no issues carrying around Slumber Stones, which can put its victim into an eternal sleep, and can comfortably wear the Steinbjorn Armor, which is forged of said stones.” The item description for the slumber stones does not say that they put their victims into an eternal sleep. The item description reads "The magic that maintained their owner's eternal slumber still courses through these fragments,” The usage of term maintained indicates that the slumber stones perpetuated the state, but do not cause it on their own.
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The magic specifically keeps them asleep beyond normal length, that is indeed sleep manipulation. This is saying that if I made a normally sleeping being stay that way forever, that wouldn't be sleep manipulation, which is baffling.

Zeus​

Resistance Negation/Reactive Evolution​

I have no idea why this is RE in the first place, but I’ll just roll with it for now. The feat comes from GoW 3, where Zeus hurls a lightning bolt at Kratos, and he becomes unable to resist the waters of the River Styx. Okay, sure. If Kratos resists the waters of the River Styx, this would indeed be resistance negation. So why does Kratos have that resistance? Well, it’s from this scene, where he falls… and then there’s a hard cut to him being chained to a stone wall (he is also very dry, which would not be the case if he was wading through a river mere moments ago). It also specifies that it kills anything that drinks from the river; There is no implication that contact alone will kill you (just like how it’s unsafe to drink pool water, but nobody’s out here dying from going swimming in a pool), nor is there an implication that Kratos got really thirsty in the Underworld and decided to take a sip. There is no resistance here, so Zeus doesn’t need to negate anything for Kratos to get BTFO’d. Pretty simple.
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Is this assuming that Kratos just didn't wind up in the river despite being unconscious? Or that the water is only specifically dangerous when drunk? Yeah, this is nonsensical. We see it affect him when he falls in after losing said resistances.

Resistance to Siren Hax​

Zeus is claimed to be able to resist the voices of the sirens. This is demonstrably false, as you can clearly see him affected by them in the scan provided.

Sure.

Hermes​

Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

Hermes can ferry souls to the Underworld. That’s it. Being a glorified taxi driver doesn’t inherently have any hax associated with it, get rid of this.
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Him being able to move souls to another realm would still be soul manipulation. The rest comes from what said souls are, and that it isn't combat applicable wouldn't really change that. This isn't even a debunk, it's just denying that someone can affect and handle souls for the sake of it.

Persephone​

Mind BFR​

This is from how she can supposedly banish Kratos’ mind to another world. Looking at the in-game context though… She tells Kratos to leave the world behind and be with his wife. I believe most people would view this as something akin to a daydream or hallucination, where Kratos “leaves behind this world” (in a metaphorical sense) and enters a better world found within his imagination. I do not think many people would assume that this involves Persephone banishing Kratos’ consciousness to an alternate reality. All the language used in regards to leaving this world behind is equally applicable when it comes to experiencing some kind of vision, hallucination, or other mental influence that makes it appear as though you are no longer a part of the world (I’ve done a not insubstantial amount of acid, so I can personally attest to this fact).

If this were truly BFR, then it would imply the existence of an alternate dimension where Kratos’ wife never died, and this is something that is never brought up again even though Persephone can apparently just send people there at will. That seems like a far more extreme conclusion to come to than “Persephone made Kratos see his dead wife to put him at ease so he’d let his guard down”.

Naturally, Kratos should also lose his resistance to mind BFR.

This is a lot of text to simply deny a scan for the hell of it. It says that his mind is to be sent to another world.

Telekinesis​

Persephone can summon light/energy pillars. There is no reason why this should be telekinesis.

Sure. Greek Gods already have this so it can be removed from her profile.

Oceanus​

Life Manipulation & Creation​

This comes from how Oceanus has 3000 offspring. In other words, he has a lot of sex. I mean, I can relate, but it’s not any sort of special hax ability.

This can actually go, yeah.

The below sections I collectively address at the end but I'll do so briefly here since it seems to confidently hinge on a misunderstanding of how resistances work.

Atlas​

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation & Deconstruction​

“Resisted Poseiden’s lightning”- Wrong. He does not fight it off, and there’s only a very brief moment between when Poseiden blasts him and Hades rips out his soul. He is never shown to be “resisting” it in any capacity, and is in fact visibly stunned by the attack while we see the electricity course through his body.

Deimos​

Resistance to Electricity/Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

Deimos resists the Eye of Atlantis- No he doesn’t. You can see right here, he is knocked flat on his back and can’t even so much as approach Kratos while his ass is getting Biden Blasted. Like, why even add this when it’s so blatantly wrong? Do GoW supporters know that anybody can look at the scans they post?

Erinys​

Resistance to Electricity/Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

This stems from how she’s able to resist the effects of Poseiden’s lightning, which can destroy souls. One problem though. She doesn’t resist it. She is explicitly being affected, damaged, pushed back, harmed, or whatever other synonym you can conjure up for “damn she’s kinda getting ****** up by that lightning”.

Thanatos​

Resistance to Electricity/Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

I don’t have a scan for this one since it isn’t linked on Thanatos’ page, but we’re 3-for-3 now on characters “resisting” things by getting blasted to hell and back by them. So I would really like to see a scan where Thanatos actually shrugs off the Eye of Atlantis and its associated abilities, without Kratos using it to blast him into submission.

That said, even in the worst case scenario, it’s not like Thanatos’ page would give him two resistances stemming from being visibly harmed by an attack, right?
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Already addressed below. He resists the effects and that's all that he needs to resist, given the attack specifically still carries energy and force to harm him.

Resistance to Void Manipulation​

oh **** lol

TL;DR page says he resists his own void, scan says otherwise. There is at least a second feat for this, which involves Thanatos battling Chaos. Not only is this very speculative, since we don’t know if Chaos actually used this ability on Thanatos, it’s also not something that can be “resisted”, since it stems from Chaos willing the Greek world into existence and also existing as a void, rather than weaponizing the void itself to kill people.
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The second part is an innate aspect of what Chaos was prior to Uranus taking command of the cosmos. A void preceding everything. Them battling here would give them that resistance.

Sisters of Fate​

Causality Manipulation & Probability Manipulation​

Let me just post the justification and work my way down from there.

The easy debunk is that everything described here is just fate manipulation, and only resembles probability and causality manipulation due to these abilities sharing some surface level similarities (such as the ability to cause different events and outcomes through indirect manipulation). The more difficult debunk is taking these statements one at a time, which I will do right now.


Causing war does not require altering the past, especially not in this case, where Atropos plots out a series of events that would occur in the future. It also does not alter the odds of something happening, instead decreeing a set outcome (a “fate”, if you will), which is merely fate manipulation.


This one is interesting, because altering possibilities is the one thing written here that sounds like it could be probability hax. Unfortunately, the context shoots this possibility (heh) in the foot. Atropos brings up the topic of Kratos and how they ought to observe him. Clotho refutes this by noting that he isn’t very interesting, stating that they could instead create some new monster for gods and humans to couple with, start a war, or spread diseases to alleviate their boredom. In essence, the “so many possibilities” line merely represents the vast range of options the fates have at their disposal for keeping things interesting, just as I could say there are “so many possibilities” for what I’m having for lunch. That doesn’t mean I’m warping probability to my will, of course, and neither are the fates.


Nothing here describes probability or causality manipulation; Yes, these are potentially mechanisms through which events can be manipulated, but the problem is that the fates already possess such a mechanism in the form of fate manipulation. That is how they accomplish more or less everything they do, so it is reasonable to conclude that they manipulate outcomes by changing fate (because the Sisters of Fate typically operate by changing fate).


I would say that this is just fate manipulation again, but I don’t even need to do that. The scan itself literally says that Lahkesis was manipulating fate/destiny.


So they can counteract fates they don’t like and replace them with those of their own design. This is fine, of course, but it also isn’t probability or causality manipulation. This is also another scan where it is explicitly said that fate manipulation, and not some other force, is at play here.


This is, yet again, a description of fate manipulation being misconstrued as probability and causality manipulation. It literally says they’re tinkering with fate in the scan, I don’t know how you could possibly get anything but fate manipulation from that.


This one’s just funny. Even the justification itself acknowledges this is fatehax, yet somehow pivots to “but it totally isn’t fatehax for some reason!”.

The only thing I could find that would support either ability is a statement that one of the sisters could change Kratos’ past. This is fine in a vacuum, but it’s been established that the sisters possess the ability to travel into the past. Kratos himself uses this power to avert his fate; This is likely what was meant by “changing his past”. Not changing it through some magic power to warp the past, but by going there physically and doing the dirty work yourself. This would be a basic function of time travel, and in no way attributable to some sort of causality hax.
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This is the same issue as before, in that for whatever reason, a base ability being capable of others is somehow a contradiction. Nothing here has been posted that really changes anything. They're capable of using Fate Manipulation for a great many things, nothing new.

BFR​

The Sisters of Fate can send souls to the Underworld. By killing people. That’s what happens when people die, they go to the Underworld. This isn’t BFR at all, it’s just how the afterlife works.

Directly sending a soul to the underworld should be BFR since they're not directly harming people to do so. But I'm ambivalent for the most part, so long as what they are doing is labelled directly.

Spear of Destiny​

Transmutation & Durability Negation​

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode. For starters, making a thing purple isn’t transmutation; It’s not turning their flesh to crystal, it’s not shooting a beam that turns enemies into candy, it just… makes them purple. Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions.
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Neutral to this point.

Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

If Kratos died to the Spear of Destiny, his soul would be forfeit for all eternity. That is how dying works, you die and your soul goes to Hades/the Underworld.

This isn't really a matter of dying and Gaia giving a specific warning for said spear despite more dangerous and lethal scenarios (like the Titan he pissed off just prior to this) wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a direct threat to his soul. She also resurrects him before this point so her saying "if you get stabbed you die" and meaning just that is nonsensical.

Fate Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

We need to talk about the threads of fate. The Spear of Destiny can indeed sever them, and affect people’s fates by extension - However, it is assumed that this is something it is always doing, and not merely an extension of having access to the strings in the first place. The strings of fate are only really found at the Loom of Fate, a highly specific location Kratos only goes to once in the series. The strings of fate are not metaphysical lines connected to every person, they are a mechanism through which their fates can be controlled. Obviously, controlling destiny on a whim using such strings would require having the strings in your possession (or just nearby).

So when Kratos stabs someone with the spear, they’re not getting their destiny obliterated on the spot. That can only happen if their string is cut, which Kratos can only do if he has access to the Loom of Fate (which, 99.9% of the time, he does not). While fate manipulation itself is valid, this caveat (which would make the fate manipulation non-combat applicable) ought to be mentioned, and anybody who survives being hit with the spear should have their fate manipulation resistance removed by extension.

There’s also the simple logical issue of how, if the spear can just do this innately, then the plot of GoW 2 falls apart. Kratos’ driving motivation in GoW 2 is changing his fate, and he intends to seek out the Loom of Fate in order to do so. Kratos acquires the spear well before ever finding the loom; If he could, at any time, sever his own fate, he would have done so. But he obviously didn’t do that.

Finally, some of the fates’ abilities shouldn’t even apply to the spear. Life manipulation comes from weaving new threads to create new life, but the spear can’t do that. It can only sever threads. Same goes for sleep manipulation, empathic manipulation, and age manipulation; Those are achieved via minute alterations to the threads, not just hacking them apart. The spear’s functions are totally different from how the Sisters of Fate usually do things, save for ending a person’s fate.
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It specifically has the same magic as the Fates, to the point of even them being fearful of its power.

The point made regarding it being narratively contradictory doesn't make sense either. He's looking to travel back in time not specifically destroy his own fate or whatever. He would need the mirrors and Loom Chamber to do so.

Blade of Olympus​

Empowerment​

The claim is that the Blade of Olympus grows stronger after absorbing life force. There is no indication of this. It just glows brighter.

It specifically absorbs the powers of those it kills and drains their godhood for use. This is asinine.

Non-Physical Interaction​

Zeus uses the blade to turn an entire army to embers. Why is this NPI? What non-physical element is the blade interacting with here?

I don't know whether its a scan-wrong-place issue or you're just running out of things to say. Magic inherently has this given the plethora of non-physical beings it allows one to interact with.

Sirens​

Body Puppetry​

Sirens have body puppetry because of this scan, which implies they were controlling Kratos’ physical movements. The context makes this absurd, of course; Kratos is just horny. That’s what sirens do, they manipulate people’s emotions and fill them with lust so they can be lured closer. While Kratos is moving against his will, this is because his body is moving in response to his emotions/state of mind, as bodies are known to do. This would be like giving someone with empathic hax body puppetry by extension because they can make people cry by making them sad.

While sirens don’t have a page, this removal would apply to anybody accepted to resist their abilities, or to anybody who can conjure sirens in combat.
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Meh, sure.

A Brief Note on Resistances​

A common thread throughout this CRT has been characters “resisting” things that visibly harm or maim them. To most, this could not be argued as a resistance at all, but I will briefly play devil’s advocate in regards to such feats. Many of them pertain to abilities known to negate durability to an extent - such as soul manipulation or void manipulation - so it is reasonable to assume that a character without a proper resistance to them would just die on the spot. Therefore, characters who are harmed by these abilities should resist them solely because they aren’t being oneshot.

The problem with this is simple. These techniques are things Kratos can use against all manner of foes, not just the gods and demigods claimed to resist such abilities. The Eye of Atlantis, for example, can obviously still use its soul-destroying lightning against fodder enemies. The important thing about this is that, just like the gods, these enemies are not instantly oneshot and conceptually obliterated upon contact. Ergo, gods and fodder possess the same capacity to resist these hax. From this, we can come to one of three conclusions -

• These abilities do not innately oneshot people, and damage them normally despite the esoteric hax attached to them.
• Every single human, monster, and god in GoW innately resists every ability that should reasonably oneshot them.
• Enemies not getting oneshot by these abilities is an example of gameplay mechanics… which logically means gods “resisting” their effects in gameplay is also an example of gameplay mechanics.

I believe option 3 is the most reasonable; God of War is a hack-and-slash game with a large emphasis on stringing together combos on even the weakest enemies. Simply blasting them to bits with every attack would be counterintuitive to that design, and we see fodder being oneshot by such attacks in the novelizations (like here). That said, such depictions likely have a lot less to do with hax and more with the immense difference in power between Kratos and Just Some Guy. The fallout of this option would also make it so characters gaining resistance via resisting moves in boss battles and such would not be usable, limiting resistance justifications to cutscenes, novelizations, guidebooks, and miscellaneous lore. The first option is also a likely explanation, as these hax aren’t always depicted as instant-kill moves in fiction (a la Undertale); This could be supported by any instances of fodder enemies not being oneshot by these hax outside of gameplay, but I couldn’t find any. The second option should be ignored outright, as it is a massive stretch backed by very little evidence. Still, I believe we should vote on this specific facet of the downgrade, so if everyone could specify what they think of the three options listed above independently of their opinion on the rest of the CRT.
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This is just a basic misunderstanding of narrative context and game mechanics. Of course an in-game blast won't instantly kill those beings. Hence why we specifically see it do just that in media where said mechanics are not an issue. A large nothing burger of a section (quite common) that seems to argue ad verbosity and make assumptions about basic media concepts.

Conclusion​

Now that the actual content of the thread is out of the way, I’d like to take a moment to ask that you all refrain from comments like “here we go again”. As I’ve said before, we all know what is about to transpire, and I do not need more reminders that I am not well liked in this community. Thank you.

Also, given my past experiences with GoW supporters (not in GoW threads specifically, just with their supporters), I will be keeping a close eye on the vote tally, and have neutral third parties looking over things so I will have very accurate information regarding who votes for what. Do not put me through the agony that was the tier 1 DMC downgrade again. That was entirely avoidable.
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TL;DR​

A lot of this is either argument ad verbosity, a misunderstanding of both verse and site standards, ignorance of basic gaming elements, throwing opposite interpretation into the pile for the sake of it or a mix of all the former. I'll summarize my core issues since they apply to over 80% of what is being proposed here.

• Resistances are fundamentally not being affected by a specific ability being used on you by whatever medium. Being hit with an attack that carries an exotic effect and being physically knocked back/harmed but otherwise unaffected is resistance, plain and simple, so long as said exotic effect doesn't do what it is supposed to to the target's body.
• A quick-time-event that fails isn't canon. I'm not going to get into a shouting match about it but I'll just lay it out plainly. This and many other games, are linear storylines with no diverging plot paths whatsoever, unlike visual novels or whatever. Acknowledging a QTE that breaks the narrative flow isn't something we do nor is it something that has ever been accepted here. Disagree if you wish, but I'd like to think anyone reading has the good sense to see that.
• In-game showcases will always take precedent over whatever contradiction appears in alternate media. A good chunk of this thread was nitpicking over details that are blatantly demonstrated in the base canon and treating side material with priority, which is nonsensical. Kratos breaks out of petrification regularly. This isn't really in doubt for anyone whose picked up a controller or seen the character.

As for what I do agree with or am at least neutral to.

• Neutral to removal of Transmutation and Durability Negation from the Spear of Destiny.
• Zeus should have limited Resistance to the Sirens' ability given that while he is physically stunned, his mind is still clear.
• The Theseus scan can be removed from the Extrasensory Perception justification.
• Body Puppetry for Sirens can go.
• The Telekinesis on Persephone's page can go.
• Oceanus' Life Manipulation can go.
• Resistance to Helios's Status Effect Inducement can go.
• Neutral to Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope.

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @KingTempest @AbaddonTheDisappointment @DarkGrath @Emirp sumitpo @Abstractions @Crabwhale @Wokistan @Mr. Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @ByAsura

 

[Deagonx]

Show Me. For QTEs specifically, mind you.

And they can also present massive problems in both lore and scaling. More specifically, cases of circular scaling that wouldn't exist otherwise, AKA, extremely unhealthy shit for the wiki.

And it can also break established lore/scaling. This ain't something to brush off, if we already do this then that needs to change for the health of the wiki.

I'm gonna make one thing clear Deagonx: Circular scaling instances are unacceptable and something needs to give when they pop up. If that something that needs to give is Site Standard I will put time and effort into the thread to change it.

I confirmed such with Agnaa:

 

[Deagonx]

This is a lot of text to simply deny a scan for the hell of it. It says that his mind is to be sent to another world.

I'll get to the rest later but, this is not what that scan says. The scan does not use the word mind at all.

"The Queen lunges as Kratos grabbing him and dragging him under into another world, away from the chaos of the Titan and the world of man. But Kratos cannot succumb to such weak release! Alternately press the R and L buttons to release him from her grasp."

 

[DaReaperMan]

I confirmed such with Agnaa:

Agnaa's word is not written site standard.

Undertale is a god-awful example BTW, it's actually the worst game he could've picked to use as his example seeing as it canonically has numerous timelines that stop and start from SAVE/LOAD happening

 

[KLOL506]

Having had involvement in the rebuttal that Planck made and having assisted with it somewhat, I fully agree with his sentiments on the matter. The entire OP is nothing more than a bunch of fluff and blatant misunderstanding of how resistance here works, and how canon in general works here, including blatant ignorance of the narrative and its context.

No I will not elaborate further, so you can stop pestering me for that. That's all I have to say on this. Unfollowing now.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: Deagonx, Planck69 (Removing Thesus from ESP justification, Body Puppetry for Sirens, Telekinesis for Persephone, Life Manipulation for Oceanus, and Resistances to Helios's Status Effect Inducement; give Zeus limited Resistance to Sirens' ability)
Disagree: Planck69 (literally everything else not in Agree or Neutral)
Neutral: Planck69 (removing Transmutation and Dura Neg for Spear of Destiny and Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope)

Updated

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Christ I missed a lot. Give me a moment to collect my thoughts and I will respond to Planck.

 

[Deagonx]

The source is the novel itself. And it visibly doesn't in the medium that takes precedent over this. Simple as.

I'd say the flavor text of him going mad wouldn't take precedent over the in-game showcase of being fine and having his faculties, if still initially affected by their illusions, something that precedes the capture to start with.

The point Fuji is making is that Kratos is being given resistances based on the effects that are sourced from novels saying they affected Kratos himself (or would). So we're creating a bizarre picture here where Kratos is being given resistances because of these lore contradictions between the game and novel, because the games don't portray him being affected but the novels do. That doesn't make sense.

You break out by shaking it off in-game. This isn't him just suffering said effect and it wearing off.

Similarly, if Kratos has a resistance why does he stopped dead in his tracks and is forces to shake it off until it goes away?

This is using a failed QTE as justification for a power removal? Yeah, I don't need to say why this is silly. Not to mention, the green energy is already enveloping him to begin with, rendering the dodging argument moot.

God of War is a singular continuity with no alternate story path. A failed QTE is not and will never be canon.

We do use bad endings and fail-states for this purpose, GoW is not a special exception. Characters dying to things in the game is indeed an anti-feat, even if canonically they never die.

The hand is visibly glowing with said ability, so it's not really a case of pushing him off before he can fire it. The rest goes back to the "failed QTE" argument.

This also doesn't make any sense. The "Failed QTE" argument was that Kratos dying was non-canon. This is just a mana-drain effect that literally does work on Kratos, she proved this with the video. He doesn't die from it, his mana bar just goes down until you throw him off you, so the "non-canon" argument doesn't work. Kratos does not resist the mana drain effect.

I'll let Fuji speak for herself instead of replying to each line, but a lot of these counterarguments either misunderstand the argument or don't address it at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I confirmed such with Agnaa:

This is absolutely the case, for the record. It may not be how it went but it does show what would happen if it did go that way.

Before I get into this, let me preface this by saying that I will be on a plane for the next few days. Make your responses with the knowledge I likely won't touch this thread any further.

So alright then. Might as well settle this;

The resistance hinges on the innate properties of their magics not actively harming them, as they can when another wielder specifically uses them. It is not a matter of pure mastery given the very same magic given as a tiny fraction carries those properties. In fact, most of this seems to misunderstand where the reasoning comes from regardless; Thor's body being consumed is confirmed by developers as well as visuals.

The specific abilities inherent in their magic doesn't affect them. You're conflating this with some odd notion that resistance means complete immunity to the attack potency said magic also carries. Not to mention the mastery argument... comes from nothing. You are welcome to supply scans for that but until then, I'm not making undue assumptions for the hell of it.

This is a nothing burger of a section, given no one actually does that.

Neutral to the first scan given it's one of what 5 different supporting scans on the ability page? As for the second part, Kratos given that he wouldn't have any context to discern what magic Freya can and cannot use and wouldn't exactly wager an unknown man's life on it.

Saying Kratos cannot kill legionaries via normal means given they're the basic grunts he tears apart within minutes of booting up a game is ....certainly a choice. Type 1 can go I suppose.

Not particularly. He can nullify the effects Castor and Pollux put on themselves and cancel their self-age manipulation. He himself is affected and adapts to it later on. This isn't incongruence, it's a basic misunderstanding of what's on the page.

He specifically doesn't remove their amulet from them until the very end of their battle. And what do you mean, "when it matters most"? At no point do the aging and temporal effects of the amulet actually harm him during the battle.

The Sirens attacks can not only be broken away from in-game but he visibly keeps attacking through it anyway. Something I've noticed throughout this CRT is that for whatever reason, the positions of primary and secondary canon switched places for you.

Via his bare hands. As we see in the Elysium Fields.

We had a whole debate on this in the original upgrade thread, so this comes off as more just denying it for the sake of it.

A lot of this is just calling out Bruno's WoG, which is odd given him breaking out of petrification happens in-game. A basic showcase that anyone familiar with the setting has seen.

You break out by shaking it off in-game. This isn't him just suffering said effect and it wearing off.

This is using a failed QTE as justification for a power removal? Yeah, I don't need to say why this is silly. Not to mention, the green energy is already enveloping him to begin with, rendering the dodging argument moot.

God of War is a singular continuity with no alternate story path. A failed QTE is not and will never be canon.

Kratos objectively does get tagged by the arms and isn't affected by it in-game. Alecto is specifically called the Fury of the Soul. Calling it turn of phrase doesn't fit here.

The hand is visibly glowing with said ability, so it's not really a case of pushing him off before he can fire it. The rest goes back to the "failed QTE" argument.

The source is the novel itself. And it visibly doesn't in the medium that takes precedent over this. Simple as.

He's having his godhood stripped away and can still move in that same scan. He just doesn't resist the power nullification at that point. That's not paralysis.

I'd say the flavor text of him going mad wouldn't take precedent over the in-game showcase of being fine and having his faculties, if still initially affected by their illusions, something that precedes the capture to start with.

This is just a bad gif given you can sit still and get it and visibly use your powers just fine. Genuinely, this comes off as padding.

His intent is irrelevant here to start with. And the Aegean isn't what he resists so I do not know why this is brought up. The waters of the Lethe lie within the Styx and he's still fine after being within it at that.

All of this rambling ignores the specific scan where the showcase of his outright resistance happens; when Clotho seeks to affect Kratos and cripple him with said threads and completely fails to do anything to him. The rest of the novel and its showcases are a build up to the fact that they completely don't control his destiny anymore, where that and the arrogance of the Sisters contributes to their downfall. Something that is followed up immediately by the Sisters of Fate stating verbatim that he developed a will independent of the fate they set for him, that's a separate issue from Gaia.

Multiple such instances in the novel are listed in that same debunk where Kratos ignores a set fate for and both sisters misapply blame to the other, which leads to further misunderstanding, something that is furthered along by others, like Hermes, specifically using that confusion to his benefit.

That he feels a strange pain from doing so doesn't really contradict that; it's a strange function of holding his life thread. A life thread that he severs and yet manages to go to battle Zeus right afterwards with little issue.

This paragraph is just a nothingburger. Just because one ability leads to a subset of many abilities doesn't prevent them from using those abilities separately

He does but has no context for what he is seeing.

Fair.

We treat the sliver of Hope he wielded as separate from demigod power. And the rest of this can be summed up as "we see space but we don't know its space" for some reason. It makes an assumption based on nothing that can be seen. The basic information we get is that this is a dimension with a starry backdrop and what is seemingly a galaxy. Extrapolating further from that is based on little.

In the context of that part, it doesn't make sense. He's specifically noting that nothing can harm him anymore right after that, which fits in more with his godhood and superiority over mortal means.

I can agree with removal of this resistance.

This is just a basic deduction. At worst, I can see this becoming a Possibly rating but a realm wide freeze at the same time Kratos reaches the Norse Realms isn't being presented as a funny coincidence here.

This is needling over semantics by an offsite user. I shouldn't really even have to touch this but to keep things short and to avoid claims of "dodging the debunk";

• He does objectively start doing far better against Baldur by the end of that battle than at the start where he is thrown around by the latter.
• This is a separate showcase of Accelerated Development.
• I mean, yes. The whole issue is how fast he gets stronger and more capable.

He wields it get an edge and no longer needs it as the fight progresses. This is something we've tackled before already, since the Spear itself has no specific "anti-telepathy" ability.

The magic specifically keeps them asleep beyond normal length, that is indeed sleep manipulation. This is saying that if I made a normally sleeping being stay that way forever, that wouldn't be sleep manipulation, which is baffling.

Is this assuming that Kratos just didn't wind up in the river despite being unconscious? Or that the water is only specifically dangerous when drunk? Yeah, this is nonsensical. We see it affect him when he falls in after losing said resistances.

Sure.

Him being able to move souls to another realm would still be soul manipulation. The rest comes from what said souls are, and that it isn't combat applicable wouldn't really change that. This isn't even a debunk, it's just denying that someone can affect and handle souls for the sake of it.

This is a lot of text to simply deny a scan for the hell of it. It says that his mind is to be sent to another world.

Sure. Greek Gods already have this so it can be removed from her profile.

This can actually go, yeah.

The below sections I collectively address at the end but I'll do so briefly here since it seems to confidently hinge on a misunderstanding of how resistances work.

Already addressed below. He resists the effects and that's all that he needs to resist, given the attack specifically still carries energy and force to harm him.

The second part is an innate aspect of what Chaos was prior to Uranus taking command of the cosmos. A void preceding everything. Them battling here would give them that resistance.

This is the same issue as before, in that for whatever reason, a base ability being capable of others is somehow a contradiction. Nothing here has been posted that really changes anything. They're capable of using Fate Manipulation for a great many things, nothing new.

Directly sending a soul to the underworld should be BFR since they're not directly harming people to do so. But I'm ambivalent for the most part, so long as what they are doing is labelled directly.

Neutral to this point.

This isn't really a matter of dying and Gaia giving a specific warning for said spear despite more dangerous and lethal scenarios (like the Titan he pissed off just prior to this) wouldn't make sense if it wasn't a direct threat to his soul. She also resurrects him before this point so her saying "if you get stabbed you die" and meaning just that is nonsensical.

It specifically has the same magic as the Fates, to the point of even them being fearful of its power.

The point made regarding it being narratively contradictory doesn't make sense either. He's looking to travel back in time not specifically destroy his own fate or whatever. He would need the mirrors and Loom Chamber to do so.

It specifically absorbs the powers of those it kills and drains their godhood for use. This is asinine.

I don't know whether its a scan-wrong-place issue or you're just running out of things to say. Magic inherently has this given the plethora of non-physical beings it allows one to interact with.

Meh, sure.

This is just a basic misunderstanding of narrative context and game mechanics. Of course an in-game blast won't instantly kill those beings. Hence why we specifically see it do just that in media where said mechanics are not an issue. A large nothing burger of a section (quite common) that seems to argue ad verbosity and make assumptions about basic media concepts.

TL;DR​

A lot of this is either argument ad verbosity, a misunderstanding of both verse and site standards, ignorance of basic gaming elements, throwing opposite interpretation into the pile for the sake of it or a mix of all the former. I'll summarize my core issues since they apply to over 80% of what is being proposed here.

• Resistances are fundamentally not being affected by a specific ability being used on you by whatever medium. Being hit with an attack that carries an exotic effect and being physically knocked back/harmed but otherwise unaffected is resistance, plain and simple, so long as said exotic effect doesn't do what it is supposed to to the target's body.
• A quick-time-event that fails isn't canon. I'm not going to get into a shouting match about it but I'll just lay it out plainly. This and many other games, are linear storylines with no diverging plot paths whatsoever, unlike visual novels or whatever. Acknowledging a QTE that breaks the narrative flow isn't something we do nor is it something that has ever been accepted here. Disagree if you wish, but I'd like to think anyone reading has the good sense to see that.
• In-game showcases will always take precedent over whatever contradiction appears in alternate media. A good chunk of this thread was nitpicking over details that are blatantly demonstrated in the base canon and treating side material with priority, which is nonsensical. Kratos breaks out of petrification regularly. This isn't really in doubt for anyone whose picked up a controller or seen the character.

As for what I do agree with or am at least neutral to.

• Neutral to removal of Transmutation and Durability Negation from the Spear of Destiny.
• Zeus should have limited Resistance to the Sirens' ability given that while he is physically stunned, his mind is still clear.
• The Theseus scan can be removed from the Extrasensory Perception justification.
• Body Puppetry for Sirens can go.
• The Telekinesis on Persephone's page can go.
• Oceanus' Life Manipulation can go.
• Resistance to Helios's Status Effect Inducement can go.
• Neutral to Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope.

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @KingTempest @AbaddonTheDisappointment @DarkGrath @Emirp sumitpo @Abstractions @Crabwhale @Wokistan @Mr. Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @ByAsura

******' hate it here, dude, I will never forgive GoW likers for bringing me here

 

[Deagonx]

******' hate it here, dude, I will never forgive GoW likers for bringing me here

I feel like I'm watching The Passion of the Christ when you get dragged to these threads.

 

[KingTempest]

******' hate it here, dude, I will never forgive GoW likers for bringing me here

Deadass

Planck shares my views

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I plan to go through the OP to give it the discussion it deserves. In for a penny, in for a pound, that sort of thing.

I think these threads have been basically well reasoned up to now, some more than others, and so I don't feel the need to despair. Just. I'm tired of God of War.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Before I get into this, let me preface this by saying that I will be on a plane for the next few days. Make your responses with the knowledge I likely won't touch this thread any further.

So alright then. Might as well settle this;

The resistance hinges on the innate properties of their magics not actively harming them, as they can when another wielder specifically uses them. It is not a matter of pure mastery given the very same magic given as a tiny fraction carries those properties. In fact, most of this seems to misunderstand where the reasoning comes from regardless; Thor's body being consumed is confirmed by developers as well as visuals.

The specific abilities inherent in their magic doesn't affect them. You're conflating this with some odd notion that resistance means complete immunity to the attack potency said magic also carries. Not to mention the mastery argument... comes from nothing. You are welcome to supply scans for that but until then, I'm not making undue assumptions for the hell of it.

...Except that still doesn't work, because we have multiple instances of gods being damaged and staggered by their own magic reflected back at them. The WoG statement was also in response to a very blatant leading question (not very subtle, asking if Thor ascended to a "higher plane"), so I will disregard it. We have rules against this sort of stuff, yknow. It's also like... not very notable, because again, we literally see Thor being damaged by lightning before this point. He is not immune to it.

The Atlas thing is from here (forgot to link it before, oops), and the context is that Kratos struggles to wield it at first, Atlas tells him to focus, and then he does and can control his magic better.

This is a nothing burger of a section, given no one actually does that.

This is false. You can literally just, read the Primordials' page and see that they are given abilities unique to each individual. For example,

Neutral to the first scan given it's one of what 5 different supporting scans on the ability page? As for the second part, Kratos given that he wouldn't have any context to discern what magic Freya can and cannot use and wouldn't exactly wager an unknown man's life on it.

First of all, Kratos makes it very clear in his first encounter with Freya that he doesn't know what kind of magic she can use. Second of all, it is a completely reasonable reaction for him to hear that someone needs old magic to be revived, and then immediately recall a witch he met not long ago. He isn't 100% sure, necessarily, but Freya is the one person he knows of that could revive Mimir (even if he's not certain). That he gets proven partially correct later on does not change the context of the scene (that being "hey I need old magic" followed by "I know someone who might be able to help". The scene works perfectly fine without any info analysis at play.

Saying Kratos cannot kill legionaries via normal means given they're the basic grunts he tears apart within minutes of booting up a game is ....certainly a choice. Type 1 can go I suppose.

That is not the point I was trying to make. Kratos can kill them, but only by destroying them beyond what their immortality can save them from. This is why the game necessitates the use of special finishing moves (like freezing and then shattering them) to put them down for good; You literally can't destroy them by just swinging like a wild animal. This is compounded by the novelization, where Kratos fails to kill two legionnaires, but cripples them so regular soldiers may hack them apart so they can't regenerate. If Kratos had immortality negation, then his arrows in that scene should've done the job by themselves.

Not particularly. He can nullify the effects Castor and Pollux put on themselves and cancel their self-age manipulation. He himself is affected and adapts to it later on. This isn't incongruence, it's a basic misunderstanding of what's on the page.

I like how you didn't even address the bulk of the argument, which is that Kratos isn't even nullifying their powers. They just can't maintain the focus needed to use the amulet properly while Kratos is beating them to a pulp. If I bitchslap a wizard's wand out of his hands or throttle him while he tries to cast magic missile, I'm not "nullifying" his powers.

He specifically doesn't remove their amulet from them until the very end of their battle. And what do you mean, "when it matters most"? At no point do the aging and temporal effects of the amulet actually harm him during the battle.

This isn't even about removing the amulet, what are you talking about? I brought up the "knocking a weapon out of someone's hands" point as a comparison; Castor and Pollux repeatedly try to use the amulet against Kratos, but Kratos is generally able to interrupt them before they do so. Stopping yourself from getting shot by dodging gunfire, or preventing someone from shooting you in the first place, is not a "resistance" to gunfire, nor is it "adapting" to gunfire. That's what Kratos is doing here. He is merely preventing Castor and Pollux from using the amulet against him. As for the "when it matters most" point, I mean that if Kratos doesn't interrupt the twins, then their powers work against him just fine and he dies. The whole point is that Kratos needs to play keep-away and stop the duo from ever using the amulet to the fullest extent they can, because if they ever get that chance, it kills him.

The Sirens attacks can not only be broken away from in-game but he visibly keeps attacking through it anyway. Something I've noticed throughout this CRT is that for whatever reason, the positions of primary and secondary canon switched places for you.

First of all, the scans I was referencing are literally the ones on Kratos' page right now. You dug your own grave with that one, man. Anyways, I would appreciate some scans of this happening in main canon, as like I said, Kratos' current page relies solely on the novelization scans to prove that he has a resistance.

Pro tip, if you don't want people relying on secondary canon, maybe uh, don't use them as the one and only source in your justifications? Just a thought.

Via his bare hands. As we see in the Elysium Fields.

...Yes, and it still only triggers on kill. Kratos cannot absorb things by just hugging people. He has to kill them. That is a very important caveat - one that makes these abilities much less useful in VS matches - that you cannot ignore.

We had a whole debate on this in the original upgrade thread, so this comes off as more just denying it for the sake of it.

...And yet you still don't have a debunk for this. Hell, it's not even a debunk, it's just an explicit lack of evidence for the claimed abilities.

A lot of this is just calling out Bruno's WoG, which is odd given him breaking out of petrification happens in-game. A basic showcase that anyone familiar with the setting has seen.

The WoG confirms he is only mostly encased in stone, so he still has enough of his body intact to break out. It's made clear in the novelization that, if Kratos were fully turned to stone, he would perish.

You break out by shaking it off in-game. This isn't him just suffering said effect and it wearing off.

You can literally see the acid puddle fade away before Kratos breaks free, Planck.

This is using a failed QTE as justification for a power removal? Yeah, I don't need to say why this is silly. Not to mention, the green energy is already enveloping him to begin with, rendering the dodging argument moot.

As Deagon said, fail states in video games are suitable for indexing. That aside, Kratos never event resists the amulet to begin with. Its energy isn't enveloping him, Kratos is holding their arm at bay while they try to use their magic. Emphasis on "try", because the QTE is literally just breaking out of the twins' grip so they can't use their magic on you. If they do use it successfully - which they don't do canonically! I'm aware of that! - then Kratos dies. The argument is not that this failed QTE is the canon version of events, it's meant to show what would happen if the twins ever got to use the amulet's full power against Kratos, because we don't see them do it at any other point. It is literally just filling in missing context. Even if you disregarded that scene entirely... I mean, Kratos has 0 instances where he actually resists the amulet's powers, so then what?

In case you're curious, this goes both ways. Touhou has a non-canon bad ending where the earth blows up, but we still index that because it's indicative of what could happen, and it's a damn good feat. If Kratos got a notable feat or resistance from a failed QTE, then I wouldn't be opposed to including that on his profile, because it still shows what he's capable of in theory.

Kratos objectively does get tagged by the arms and isn't affected by it in-game. Alecto is specifically called the Fury of the Soul. Calling it turn of phrase doesn't fit here.

Do you have anything to actually back that up, because I find it odd that such a major resistance lacks vital scans like this. Also, Alecto being called the Fury of the Soul doesn't matter? That's a title, and we don't give soulhax to people based on names alone.

The hand is visibly glowing with said ability, so it's not really a case of pushing him off before he can fire it. The rest goes back to the "failed QTE" argument.

As Deagon said, the failed QTE argument makes no sense in this context. The priest's hand glowing doesn't mean the ability activates immediately; Kratos has a few moments to push them away, and if he doesn't, his magic gets absorbed. That's not non-canon, that's just a very basic interaction between Kratos and an enemy.

The source is the novel itself. And it visibly doesn't in the medium that takes precedent over this. Simple as.

So here's the problem, and I probably could've made it more clear in the OP. If you take the games as canon over the novels, then Kratos does resist Typhon's breath... but Typhon's breath also doesn't have any feats of flash-freezing things, so Kratos gets resistance to cold temperatures at best. If the novel is canon over the games, then Typhon's breath does flash-freeze things... but Kratos also dies to it, rendering it a moot point. The two canons contradict each other, so you cannot composite them to give Kratos a brand new resistance he would not have in either version by itself.

He's having his godhood stripped away and can still move in that same scan. He just doesn't resist the power nullification at that point. That's not paralysis.

The scan literally says he was held in place by an electric jolt and that the paralysis had passed after a few moments. That is objectively paralysis inducement. That is the exact justification used on Zeus' profile for his paralysis inducement. Kratos being affected by it shows he does not resist Zeus' paralysis.

I'd say the flavor text of him going mad wouldn't take precedent over the in-game showcase of being fine and having his faculties, if still initially affected by their illusions, something that precedes the capture to start with.

As with the Typhon thing, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If Kratos wasn't driven insane... then, well, the Furies don't really have a justification for madness manipulation anymore, now do they? If Kratos was driven insane, then madness manipulation can stay, but Kratos doesn't resist it.

This is just a bad gif given you can sit still and get it and visibly use your powers just fine. Genuinely, this comes off as padding.

Do you have scans of this, or not?

His intent is irrelevant here to start with. And the Aegean isn't what he resists so I do not know why this is brought up. The waters of the Lethe lie within the Styx and he's still fine after being within it at that.

The Aegean sea is important because it shows Kratos never actually entered the Lethe, despite his intent to do so. Also, the Lethe being part of the Styx is irrelevant; Just because he swam in the Styx does not mean he coincidentally swam in the small subsection that erases memories. You would need proof of that. Just because I swim in the ocean doesn't mean I'm swimming in the parts with sharks in it, in case you need a point of comparison.

All of this rambling ignores the specific scan where the showcase of his outright resistance happens; when Clotho seeks to affect Kratos and cripple him with said threads and completely fails to do anything to him. The rest of the novel and its showcases are a build up to the fact that they completely don't control his destiny anymore, where that and the arrogance of the Sisters contributes to their downfall. Something that is followed up immediately by the Sisters of Fate stating verbatim that he developed a will independent of the fate they set for him, that's a separate issue from Gaia.

Multiple such instances in the novel are listed in that same debunk where Kratos ignores a set fate for and both sisters misapply blame to the other, which leads to further misunderstanding, something that is furthered along by others, like Hermes, specifically using that confusion to his benefit.

That he feels a strange pain from doing so doesn't really contradict that; it's a strange function of holding his life thread. A life thread that he severs and yet manages to go to battle Zeus right afterwards with little issue.

So you have one feat... against an entire novel's worth of anti-feats. The conclusion is obvious; The instances where Kratos' fate is tampered with far outweigh the instances where it doesn't bother him, so the former incidents should be given precedent. Even after that feat, he still manipulates his own fate using the Spear of Destiny (which is the Sisters' own power, as you claim; Not some special layered fatehax unique to Kratos) and it clearly affects him. Also, "feeling a strange pain" is a disingenuous way of describing being brought to your knees by torturous agony that could kill a lesser man. Kratos is crippled by this act; He does not resist it in the slightest.

This paragraph is just a nothingburger. Just because one ability leads to a subset of many abilities doesn't prevent them from using those abilities separately

I like how you didn't even address the underlying logic, which is that Kratos fundamentally can't resist those abilities because they cannot be weaponized against him. Why does he need to "resist" being attractive and fuckable? How can someone resist the creation of new life? The latter thing can't even be applied to an individual!

He does but has no context for what he is seeing.

...Then he doesn't understand it, Planck.

We treat the sliver of Hope he wielded as separate from demigod power. And the rest of this can be summed up as "we see space but we don't know its space" for some reason. It makes an assumption based on nothing that can be seen. The basic information we get is that this is a dimension with a starry backdrop and what is seemingly a galaxy. Extrapolating further from that is based on little.

We do not give resistance to radiation for occupying space-like dimensions. I really don't know what else to add.

In the context of that part, it doesn't make sense. He's specifically noting that nothing can harm him anymore right after that, which fits in more with his godhood and superiority over mortal means.

...Yes, because he is viewing things from afar, while he is in a physically safe location. If taken literally, this would give gods invulnerability, which obviously isn't the case.

This is just a basic deduction. At worst, I can see this becoming a Possibly rating but a realm wide freeze at the same time Kratos reaches the Norse Realms isn't being presented as a funny coincidence here.

We have no reason to assume that correlation equals causation by default. Kratos shows up, Fimbulwinter starts, the two things don't have to be connected.

• He does objectively start doing far better against Baldur by the end of that battle than at the start where he is thrown around by the latter.
• This is a separate showcase of Accelerated Development.
• I mean, yes. The whole issue is how fast he gets stronger and more capable.

1. Like I've said before, that's him shaking the rust off. He isn't explosively growing in power, he's able to barely eke out a win after being left on death's door.
2. It's also one that explicitly contradicts the first point.
3. It's done over a long period, and he doesn't even strictly get stronger. He's just getting back into shape after a long period of not fighting. That doesn't require any sort of AD.

He wields it get an edge and no longer needs it as the fight progresses. This is something we've tackled before already, since the Spear itself has no specific "anti-telepathy" ability.

It literally does, though. It overloads Heimdall's senses so he cannot read Kratos' mind as easily. That is the entire point of Kratos using it in the first place. The reason he doesn't need it again is because using it once was enough for him to counter Heimdall and gain the upper hand.

The magic specifically keeps them asleep beyond normal length, that is indeed sleep manipulation. This is saying that if I made a normally sleeping being stay that way forever, that wouldn't be sleep manipulation, which is baffling.

It is sleep manipulation, just not the kind that Kratos needs to "resist".

Is this assuming that Kratos just didn't wind up in the river despite being unconscious? Or that the water is only specifically dangerous when drunk? Yeah, this is nonsensical. We see it affect him when he falls in after losing said resistances.

If we never see him enter the river, then why would we assume that? He just fell down. Also, yes, the water is only deadly when drunk. That is what the scan says. You can think it's silly, but to my knowledge there is no scan saying it kills on any kind of contact (again, my "swimming in pool water is fine but drinking it is dangerous" comparison feels relevant here). Also, the last sentence is hilarious, because like. The whole point is that Kratos doesn't resist these effects innately, so there's nothing for Zeus to negate.

Him being able to move souls to another realm would still be soul manipulation. The rest comes from what said souls are, and that it isn't combat applicable wouldn't really change that. This isn't even a debunk, it's just denying that someone can affect and handle souls for the sake of it.

Moving an object from point A to point B doesn't require any hax. At best, it's NPI, and even then we don't really know how Hermes moves souls around. He could just be guiding them, as far as we know. Regardless, it's not soulhax.

This is a lot of text to simply deny a scan for the hell of it. It says that his mind is to be sent to another world.

My point was that it's a metaphor. Kratos is going to "another world" in a non-literal sense, because he gets to briefly pretend his wife is alive and well. There is a stunning lack of evidence for the more complicated claim, which is that Persephone banished his psyche to another plane of existence. You'd do well to remember Occam's Razor in situations like these.

The second part is an innate aspect of what Chaos was prior to Uranus taking command of the cosmos. A void preceding everything. Them battling here would give them that resistance.

Battling inside a void doesn't grant resistance to void manipulation, unless that void is actively erasing everything there (which there is no proof of).

This is the same issue as before, in that for whatever reason, a base ability being capable of others is somehow a contradiction. Nothing here has been posted that really changes anything. They're capable of using Fate Manipulation for a great many things, nothing new.

I know that, Planck. But the actual problem, if you read the OP, is that none of these feats are probability or causality hax to begin with. Like, some even explicitly say they were performed by tampering with fate. Just because they can use their threads for many things doesn't mean they should get every ability they can theoretically have; You would need actual evidence of that.

It specifically absorbs the powers of those it kills and drains their godhood for use. This is asinine.

Yeah, and that's not empowerment, that's absorption.

I don't know whether its a scan-wrong-place issue or you're just running out of things to say. Magic inherently has this given the plethora of non-physical beings it allows one to interact with.

Yeah. Fine. Still doesn't belong on the page, though. Keep it to the magic page where it belongs, unless the Blade of Olympus has its own feats of NPI.

This isn't even a disagreement so much as it is a matter of good formatting, and the fact that you're willing to argue against better formatting or think I'm doing this in bad faith is just sad.

It specifically has the same magic as the Fates, to the point of even them being fearful of its power.

The point made regarding it being narratively contradictory doesn't make sense either. He's looking to travel back in time not specifically destroy his own fate or whatever. He would need the mirrors and Loom Chamber to do so.

It also still needs to cut the strings of fate to do its work. It literally cannot manipulate fate without them. So, can it conjure those strings from nothing? If not, then we have no reason to assume it can just obliterate someone's fate on contact.

This is just a basic misunderstanding of narrative context and game mechanics. Of course an in-game blast won't instantly kill those beings. Hence why we specifically see it do just that in media where said mechanics are not an issue. A large nothing burger of a section (quite common) that seems to argue ad verbosity and make assumptions about basic media concepts.

Yes, that's precisely my point! The games do not show these characters getting oneshot by attacks that, in lore, do oneshot people! So we can safely conclude that those attacks not oneshotting people is an example of gameplay mechanics, which means we cannot use them for resistances. If a character survives soul-destroying lightning outside of gameplay, then that's fine, but gameplay-based examples of that happening is a no-go. I'm so glad you agree!

I plan to go through the OP to give it the discussion it deserves. In for a penny, in for a pound, that sort of thing.

I think these threads have been basically well reasoned up to now, some more than others, and so I don't feel the need to despair. Just. I'm tired of God of War.

Me too man.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I think OP makes a good and cohesive argument here - and I tried my best to read the whole thread (not just the OP) but this back-and-forth involving QTEs is frankly embarrassing. If a game goes out of its way to showcase a character's victory in battle as being achieved through avoidance of a certain thing while simultaneously showing defeat as falling victim to the thing they would've otherwise avoided, then it's clear that the game is telling you that the victor doesn't resist it. It shouldn't even matter if they canonically won the battle, the game went out of its way to show you what would've happened if they didn't avoid it and thus communicated to the player that it's important that they did avoid it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ignoring the rest because I can't be ****** to argue in bibles

...Except that still doesn't work, because we have multiple instances of gods being damaged and staggered by their own magic reflected back at them. The WoG statement was also in response to a very blatant leading question (not very subtle, asking if Thor ascended to a "higher plane"), so I will disregard it. We have rules against this sort of stuff, yknow. It's also like... not very notable

Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means.

The very first sentence in the resistance section says "Wistand" not "Unaffected by", they can be staggered by the AP of their own magic but still not be bothered by the haxxy parts of it

because again, we literally see Thor being damaged by lightning before this point. He is not immune to it.

And this right here is what got me to respond instead of just let others do it for me, because what in the hell do you think happened here? Heimdall, a Norse God who died in the same game as Thor, also dissipated to whatever energy when he died. Thor just got impaled by Gungir, is he supposed to look down, look up at Odin and say "you just ****** up"?

Not only this, but the singular most famous scene for GoW Thor is him literally enveloping his hand in lightning!

0:34!
He envelops himself in lightning at 7:50 as well!
At 10:37, one of his attacks is thunderclapping a bitch!
At 11:20, his hands cracked with electricity again!
11:29 it happens again!
At 12:52, Thor is at the epicenter of a big frozen lightning thing he and Kratos cause, this time he's only staggered.
At 14:00 it's Thor literally beating the ground with Mjölnir and causing lightning to shoot up!
At 14: 46 he's literally sparking electricity into his face!
At 15:36 he's again enveloping himself in lightning.

Fuji. My gal. This is his first appearance and he's got 9 reasons to be immune to his own lightning already. nine. reasons. I don't usually say this, but your research on the big guy was apsolutely terrible if you missed all of that from his first appearance, and I wasn't looking hard to find all that.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Why did I decide to read through like half of this instead of studying for my finals

Anyways, agree mostly with what Planck said with a few exceptions I'll detail below. I also personally don't think failed QTEs for linear story games should be used but that's just me personally and I won't try and convince y'all if you disagree. I don't want to argue over this so don't try to.

This is false. You can literally just, read the Primordials' page and see that they are given abilities unique to each individual. For example,

Considering not all of the Primordials have their own profiles, just indent those bullet points or something and on top just say specific Primordials have specific abilities I guess.

Immortality Negation [1, 2, 3, 4, 6, & 7] [Demigod Key]​

Kratos mainly has this via killing undead legionnaires, which can shrug off fatal wounds and resurrect after death. The first scan showcases how Kratos pins the heads of two of them to a wall, noting how this was done so other warriors could hack them apart at their leisure; Notably, this does not kill them, and also proves that anybody can kill undead legionnaires so long as they can wound them beyond what they are capable of regenerating from. Kratos is merely aware of the limits of their immortality, and knows how to exploit that. That leads me into the other scans, where Kratos shatters a frozen legionnaire, and then tears apart another one with his bare hands - These scans showcases that Kratos can’t kill legionnaires normally, and he must very specifically tear them apart to kill them (you can see them fall apart before reforming). He is not “negating” their immortality, but rather destroying them beyond what their immortality allows them to survive (a more extreme example would be giving someone regen negation for erasing a guy who can regenerate severed limbs from existence).

The remainder of the justification is completely unsourced.

Also, type 1 immortality negation isn’t a thing. Kratos can kill old people, I guess, good for him.

Agree with this

Yeah, and that's not empowerment, that's absorption.

That's not really stopping it from being both.

Resistance to Sleep Manipulation [Ragnarok Key]​

Credit to Dammerung again, because I’m lazy and couldn’t think of anything new to add anyways.

"Sleep Manipulation (Scaling from his Demigod and God selves. Has no issues carrying around Slumber Stones, which can put its victim into an eternal sleep, and can comfortably wear the Steinbjorn Armor, which is forged of said stones.” The item description for the slumber stones does not say that they put their victims into an eternal sleep. The item description reads "The magic that maintained their owner's eternal slumber still courses through these fragments,” The usage of term maintained indicates that the slumber stones perpetuated the state, but do not cause it on their own.

Do we ever see Kratos sleeping with those on him? It not I agree with removing it. If we do put me as disagree.

Power Nullification [Demigod Key]​

Kratos has this because he can supposedly nullify Castor and Pollux’s magic with every strike. Aside from how there is very little visual indication of this (the green glow emanated by their weapons briefly vanishes in the second scan, but returns in under a second), it also just isn’t a logical interpretation. The Amulet of Uroboros is a magic item, whose effects must be activated in order to take place. It isn’t passively warping time or anything. So when Kratos “disrupts” its magic by hitting Castor and Pollux, he’s actually just interrupting them and briefly preventing them from tapping into their magic. This is, of course, something that happens in countless video games (even down to TTRPGs, with mechanics like concentration checks), and isn’t necessarily a form of power null so much as it is a weakness of magic users.

A more astute observer would notes that this justification is very similar to the one already listed in his reactive evolution justification; It seems that the page is insistent on the idea that he was being affected by the amulet, but grew to resist it, but he also nullified it, while ignoring that those are incompatible with one another. We can clearly see that Kratos doesn’t nullify its magic, so clearly reactive evolution is the better interpretation, right? Well, uh,

Reactive Evolution [Demigod Key]​

So, Kratos is supposedly affected by the Amulet of Uroboros, before adapting to resist its effects. This is backed by two WoG statements, saying he was indeed affected by the Amulet. But does Kratos ever actually fight back against it later in the fight? Well, uh… Castor and Pollux try to use it against Kratos, but Kratos physically overpowers them and prevents them from using the Amulet before that can happen. Knocking a weapon out of someone’s hands, or punching them in the gut before they kill you, is not “adapting” to shit. As explained further below, Kratos also demonstrably does not resist the Amulet of Uroboros when it matters most, so he very clearly did not adapt to it. But what about the Sisters of Fate? I’ll be covering that down below, alongside Kratos’ general resistance to their abilities.

These two seem fine to remove imo.

Spear of Destiny​

Transmutation & Durability Negation​

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode. For starters, making a thing purple isn’t transmutation; It’s not turning their flesh to crystal, it’s not shooting a beam that turns enemies into candy, it just… makes them purple. Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions.

Removing this seems fine to me

If you're wondering why some of these are out of order and take from Fuji's response and the OP, well it's cause I had three tabs open to look at the OP, Planck's response, and Fuji's counter response and was staring at all three looking at each ability. Anyways, that's it for me for now. Gonna continue watching the thread in case any new arguments happen but I probably won't actively join them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: Deagonx (fully), Planck69 (Removing Thesus from ESP justification, Body Puppetry for Sirens, Telekinesis for Persephone, Life Manipulation for Oceanus, and Resistances to Helios's Status Effect Inducement; give Zeus limited Resistance to Sirens' ability), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation, Power Nullification, and Resistance to Sleep Manipulation)
Disagree: Planck69 (literally everything else not in Agree or Neutral), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 minus abilities mentioned to agree with removing above)
Neutral: Planck69 (removing Transmutation and Dura Neg for Spear of Destiny and Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69)

Updated again. Tentatively put Abaddon as agreeing with removing Resistance to Sleep Manip, though ik he said this could change depending on what's provided

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Updated again. Tentatively put Abaddon as agreeing with removing Resistance to Sleep Manip, though ik he said this could change depending on what's provided

I also agreed to the removal of reactive evolution (demigod key), probably got missed cause it was with the power null, and the transmutation and dura neg from the spear of destiny

 

[Deagonx]

That's not really stopping it from being both.

Empowerment is the ability to strengthen oneself due to various circumstances and outside forces that may or may not be under their control. Unlike Statistics Amplification, empowerment is often involuntary and inherent to each character rather than an activated ability.

Absorbing someone else's power to get stronger isn't a standard use case for empowerment. It's usually for stuff like Hulk getting stronger from anger.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Empowerment is the ability to strengthen oneself due to various circumstances and outside forces that may or may not be under their control. Unlike Statistics Amplification, empowerment is often involuntary and inherent to each character rather than an activated ability.

Absorbing someone else's power to get stronger isn't a standard use case for empowerment. It's usually for stuff like Hulk getting stronger from anger.

Eh fair enough then, put me down for removing those also I guess

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not have much to say here, but Planck makes sense for the most part.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Deagonx (fully), Planck69 (Removing Thesus from ESP justification, Body Puppetry for Sirens, Telekinesis for Persephone, Life Manipulation for Oceanus, and Resistances to Helios's Status Effect Inducement; give Zeus limited Resistance to Sirens' ability), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation, Power Nullification, Reactive Evolution, Empowerment and Resistance to Sleep Manipulation)
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Planck69 (literally everything else not in Agree or Neutral), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 minus abilities mentioned to agree with removing above)
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Planck69 (removing Transmutation and Dura Neg for Spear of Destiny and Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69)

Okay, this should cover everything so far. Feel free to let me know if I missed something

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This will be the last time I say this, stop pinging me for threads like these. I only just got back from a short break to help keep up my health, especially given how depressing my neighborhood can be most of the time. I have a bold text on my message wall explaining I'm also busy and I don't wish to take part in massive revisions especially when these involve verses I have not much knowledge on. Right now, I'm just not up for these type discussions so please stop tagging me, I just don't have the time and energy at the moment. If you truly need my input, I'll try and go over the thread later but that will take way to long.

Now I don't wish to be rude even though I don't wish to take part in this thread, so I skimmed through the thread to give a brief comment. Hard disagree with failed quick time events/bad endings and so on being used by default when that's not always the case, and even goes against the narrative in various games at some points, this isn't a standard so don't treat it as such. It's a case by case. I'm mostly agree with Planck, don't mind the removals like some of the immortality negations (type 1 especially), and those that haven't been properly addressed/countered/discussed are fine to be removed in my opinion as I don't know the verse well enough to talk about those points. I half to go to work now, you guys don't need me for this thread

 

[Eseseso]

This will be the last time I say this, stop pinging me for threads like these. I only just got back from a short break to help keep up my health, especially given how depressing my neighborhood can be most of the time. I have a bold text on my message wall explaining I'm also busy and I don't wish to take part in massive revisions especially when these involve verses I have not much knowledge on. Right now, I'm just not up for these type discussions so please stop tagging me, I just don't have the time and energy at the moment. If you truly need my input, I'll try and go over the thread later but that will take way to long.

I half to go to work now, you guys don't need me for this thread

Sorry to hear that.

I hope you feel better and that things get better for you.