Archie Sonic's Immortality Discussion

[ElixirBlue]

@Cal But Superman's situation was cleared up by an explanation in story. It's insulting that you apply another series's explanations (DC animation) to another series (Archie Sonic) that had no explanation.

@Foney "Why does the comic need to explicitly say that the device was the reason"

Hypocrite. Foney, the hypocrite. Your argument against Sonic surviving EE is that the story didn't explicitly say Sonic survived it, holding onto Dr. Quack's statement when I have countered it in multiple ways, and yet you now claim the story doesn't need to explicitly state the machine was responsible for Sonic's survival of vaporization to fit your headcano?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Elixir, buddy, make sure not to get worked up. Take it easy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For once, I actually do think Elixer is making more sense. Lasers teleporting things as opposed to just vaporizing them isn't really a standard assumption. Unless it's literally shown and explained like the Superman example. As Superman was also shown sleeping in the pile of rubble, which was all the same inanimate objects that Toy Man allegedly vaporized. And Batman himself said there should have been smoke or other substance, which there was none in the atmosphere.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Isn't the more obvious explanation for Eggman not being naked at any point because A) he's Eggman and B) it's a children's comic and who would want to see that anyway?

If that isn't the obvious answer, here's another hot take: couldn't Eggman's clothes be composed of organic material, such as cotton, and leather?

 

[Foneybone1]

We're told that a device is randomly teleporting people through dimensions and Sonic ends up in the same place those teleported things go through.

Occam's Razor definitely favors Sonic being sent there by the device over applying an ability that, in addition to also going against Occam's Razor, couldn't have been established yet, Sonic Live came out half a year before 50.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Isn't the more obvious explanation for Eggman not being naked at any point because A) he's Eggman and B) it's a children's comic and who would want to see that anyway?

Say hello to a children's cartoon of that era.


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If that isn't the obvious answer, here's another hot take: couldn't Eggman's clothes be composed of organic material, such as cotton, and leather?

That goes completely against Robotnik's character and does not explain the Metal arm.

 

[Foneybone1]

How on earth am I being a hypocrite? You're choosing to believe Sonic wasn't teleported by the device because we aren't explicitly told that while also choosing to believe type 8 when we aren't explicitly told that either.

In both Sonic Live and issue 50, we're given an explanation for what happens in the comic that doesn't involve Sonic having type 8, and they either aren't contradicted (Live is never mentioned) or supported (the encyclopedia agrees with Quack) by supplementary material. Saying Sonic has type 8 when the comic explains events in ways that don't necessitate it is silly.

 

[ElixirBlue]

"We're told that a device is randomly teleporting people through dimensions"

This is starting to get Ridiculous. There is nothing stating that it's randomly teleporting people.

It's just randomly creating portals, not teleporting people. There's no such statement.

Foney, can you stop making things up?

 

[Foneybone1]

They're pulled through a portal at a point. The device "created a link between dimensions" and Sonic ends up between those dimensions. It makes infinitely more sense for the device to have sent him there than a power that may or may not exist and wasn't even possibly introduced until half a year later.

Hey, it's like 2AM, I'll check this out tomorrow, maybe you won't make more rude accusations then.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ok, good night.

"Makes infinitely more sense"

The device that has only been making portals consistently throughout the story and then is inconsistently teleporting Sonic as he was getting Vaporized makes sense to you, Foney.

Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Also, let's remember this was the only time Sonic felt pain in this story.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, that is smoke there; appears to be vaporization.

 

[ElixirBlue]

maybe you won't make more rude accusations then.

I felt like you are being rude to me. You used wording like "We are told" when it came to random teleportation as if it was told or shown and that it is fact when it wasn't anywhere in the story. Maybe you mis-assumed. Idk.

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

So what should we do here?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

The assumption that the laser BFR'd Sonic is flawed when not only have the SWATbots never shown to BFR with their lasers, but Robotnik who manufactured them in that panel says that it will blast Sonic to smithereens. This is to clearly indicate that Sonic's body was vaporized and then was regenerated in another zone.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think Elixer is making sense that the ring does indeed revive/regenerate Sonic as he gets destroyed. The teleportation assumption isn't really explained, and it's not quite like the DCAU example Cal brought up where Toy Man's invention actually was confirmed to simply teleport objects to the future as opposed to vaporizing them. The SwatBots literally just blast objects to smithereens as Shadow mentioned. So I think Resurrection and/or Immortality type 8 based on the ring is fine.

 

[Foneybone1]

My argument isn't that the SWATbots are what sent Sonic to the in-between zone, it's that the human's device, which teleports things through the in-between zone, sent Sonic there when it created the link between their dimentions. Sonic being revived into the in-between zone is inconsistant with the way he was allegedly revived in issue 50. The device sending him there is consistent with the story.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Cal's argument was the thing people we're commenting on about the BFR, not anything you said in particular.

Also I'm pretty sure the argument was that their device is the reason Sonic ended up in-between Zones, which nobody denied, but was not the reason why he survived in the first place iirc. And we know he was actualy affected by the lasers because of his expression on pain from the contact of the beams. And if what Elixir said held water, the only consostent thing about the device was it's creation of portals and not it's teleportation of people.

Not sure tho, I'm on the go and have no time to focus on what was and is currently being said. Elixir probably has the more solid arguments or whatever

 

[Foneybone1]

I don't think Sonic wasn't hit by the SWATbots, I just don't think he was vaporized by them, he's survived much worse than SWATbots. I agree that it looks like he was vaporized, but like the Superman clip, that's the point. It's supposed to make the reader think the hero's been defeated.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Medeus' sense of judgement.

 

[Foneybone1]

Should we wait for Cal to give his thoughts? At risk of putting words in his mouth, he doesn't seem to agree.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, we should wait for Cal.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yeah, let's wait for Cal. But first I want to address some things.

"It's supposed to make the reader think the hero's been defeated."

That assumption wouldn't go against the Type 8. Sonic getting hit by vaporizing beams would make the reader think he was defeated by in actuality, survived the vaporizing beams because of his ring aura.

Cliches don't take away the feat.

"Sonic being revived into the in-between zone is inconsistant with the way he was allegedly revived in issue 50. The device sending him there is consistent with the story."

I do agree the device sent Sonic in-between zone but I don't agree the device saved Sonic from being vaporized. The device only made an accidental link -


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Between Sonic's reality and a *cough* higher plane of reality.


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Again, this is not like the Toy Man Analogy. Toy Man got statements about what happen to Superman being sent to the future by "Future Beams".

But in Sonic Live, the same story Sonic got vaporized and lived, the story consistently shows portals and have statements that the machine creates portals. Sonic's vaporization is ignored in the story, even though it's the catalyst for the events of the story.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Gotta love the idea of an unkillable hero even if he's rendered to dust. Sure makes tension amazing. Everyone will think Sonic's been defeated if he comes back like Jesus under any circumstance.

Snarkiness aside, I'm still in disagreement with Elixir. I'd rather have the idea that he conveniently got warped by the kids who were accidentally warping things then him getting turned to dust and smoke. Otherwise, that smoke that apparently would be Sonic's remains as he got vaporized would just reconstitute into Sonic, as opposed to what actually happened.

 

[Antvasima]

Cal has a good point. It does not seem characteristic for Sonic to automatically return from death on his own, if that is what is suggested here.

 

[ElixirBlue]

"I'd rather have the idea that he conveniently got warped by the kids who were accidentally warping things then him getting turned to dust and smoke."

That sounds like a preference. But there isn't a statement supporting kids warping or the machine is Capable of warping/teleporting. It's only been portals, nothing else.

Putting your preferences above the facts it's shown is Not reasonable.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Wait, is the counter arguments going to be

"Eh, this is not how I envisioned Sonic to be, so I don't agree with it."?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I did make more points than that, you know. The smoke you see would've been the remains of Sonic's vaporized body, which if he had said immortality, would've just reconstituted into Sonic. But we see Sonic later.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I am writing a response to that, I just don't want people to open up with their preferences.

"Otherwise, that smoke that apparently would be Sonic's remains as he got vaporized would just reconstitute into Sonic, as opposed to what actually happened."

So? Sonic can still be reformed from that. His 1 Billionth ring was gifted by the Ancient Walkers and his ring is stated to protect Archie Sonic.

 

[Theuser789]

I still agree with Elixir

 

[ElixirBlue]

"would just reconstitute into Sonic,"

See above with what I agree with when it came to that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's the point. If Sonic was actually vaporized and had the survivability that'd make all tension moot, then the leftover smoke would be his remains and would've just reconstituted. We never see Sonic revive like we do Knuckles.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Not seeing =/= not happening

No tension =/= not fun story (See One Punch Man for a fun story from an Overpowered main character)

Again, I agree the device interfered with Sonic's reformation, but I don't agree the device had the ability to be the thing responsible of saving Sonic.

 

[Theuser789]

Tension, plot, are completely irrelevant to power level debates, nor are they relevant in a character having a ability or not, "X character shouldn't have a ability because it's bad writting" is not a argument in a versus debating sense

 

[ElixirBlue]

"The weakest Kingdom Hearts enemy has Existence Erasure and Sora, Donald, and Goofy casually nopes it = bad writing and lack of tension."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

OPM is nothing like Sonic. Former is a deconstruction/satire and focuses on the side characters. We know from the start that Saitama is invincible. The latter is supposed to have serious stories, and Sonic is the primary focus of tension, or is at least supposed to be. You're supposed to be worried for Sonic's well being, but if you're right, which I don't think you are (no offense), there's no need to be worried. To put it into perspective, OPM, the tension is "Will Genos be okay until Saitama arrives?" Cant day the same for Sonic's series. See the handful of times where Sonic nearly bites it.

 

[Foneybone1]

How is the device responsible for sending Sonic to the in-between zone but not also able to have saved him?

 

[Theuser789]

Penders writting was shit, that's not a debate, however that's not important in Sonic having a ability or not

 

[Greenshifter]

In Ben 10 Omniverse, post-season 6 Ben can transform into Alien X any time he wants and stomp his enemy out of existence. Yet those stories are still interesting, Ben also has a failsafe that won't let him die and we got a glimpse of that in Alien Force. My point being that if you execute it right you can make your main character OP and still have an enjoyable story. Not picking any side on the feat itself tho.

 

[ElixirBlue]

How is the device responsible for sending Sonic to the in-between zone but not also able to have saved him?

Foney, I'm not ignoring you but I've already explain myself in multiple ways in the overall context of Sonic surviving vaporization on his own from past information of Sonic himself and how the device couldn't be the thing to directly save Sonic.

The trouble is that bad writing exists. But we are trying to determine the truth through the bad writing. However, finding the truth doesn't mean to disregard things that have been told in the story.

 

[Foneybone1]

Not very well or else I wouldn't be asking, but how about a different question.

How did Sonic get to the in-between zone?