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Yeah, one you finish the blog, go ahead and link it.
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Archie Sonic's Immortality Discussion
- Thread starter ElixirBlue
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #42
Ok, here it is:
Everything I wrote is important for the argument as a whole.
https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElixirBlue/Type_8_Existence_Eraser
Everything I wrote is important for the argument as a whole.
https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElixirBlue/Type_8_Existence_Eraser
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- Thread starter
- #43
I keep making additions to it.
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- #44
Ok, nnnnoooooooooowwwwwww I'm done editing it to make it look nice.
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And... I edited it again. I just want to get the wording right.
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I agree with Elixir.
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Oh yeah me too
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Would you want me to reply here or on the blog?
ShakeResounding
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Might as well do it here.
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I feel like the way a lot of this is written doesn't properly convey my tone (probably could have been formatted better too) but it's a lot of crap I don't want to reword.
Just as an opening question: doesn't the fact Sonic was able to be erased mean he isn't resistant to EE? Even if the ring aura is what brought him back, it didn't keep him from being erased, it brought him back afterward. I mean, everyone else came back on their own without a special ring power, why don't they get resistance?
There's no evidence either way that Robotnik's clothes were destroyed in 50, that's a big fat assumption. Him being brought back with clothes on in 108 doesn't prove anything for either of us. If they weren't destroyed, he'd need new clothes, and if they were destroyed, he'd still need new clothes. There's no reason for why he has clothes that wouldn't work in both scenarios. Robotnik believes the Annihilator has worked properly after hitting Knothole, despite the entire city being erased instead of just the Mobians. This (admittedly weirdly) implies that other things can be included with a person, but obviously not another person due to the purpose of the Annihilator. There's also that clothes seem to be considered "part of a person" when it comes to the roboticization process despite it supposedly affecting organic material. This means his clothes could be considered "part of him" for writing purposes (partially because comic logic, but still) If his clothes aren't considered "part of him" then why were they brought back with him?
Yes, Sonic does have a ring aura that protects him, but that ring aura was shown to need outside assistance just to unroboticize him. Which heavily implies it shouldn't be able to bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence all on its own. We can't draw the conclusion that Sonic returned due to his ring aura based solely on a ring being on panel. You said yourself that there are no statements about Sonic coming out of the ring. Meaning there's no concrete reason to say it's the ring aura; everything you say about it you have to come up with yourself, which is just a fancy way of saying it's unsupported.
The encyclopedia says Snivley "replaced" everyone's biodata with Robotnik's, no one else's was still programmed.
How does Dr. Quack not knowing if Sally would wake up from a coma make him unreliable when talking about the Annihilator? Not only is that completely unrelated, but it's not even him being unreliable; real-life doctors also can't predict when people will wake up from comas (yes, this is fiction, but it still doesn't work as an argument) You also can't just declare he doesn't know how the Annihilator works for no reason. Him talking about its functions proves that he is more knowledgeable than you say. The encyclopedia even confirms that what he said Snivley did is correct. If he only knows about the neutron chip, how did he know this?
The encyclopedia only mentioning Mobius blipped doesn't mean it's saying the Annihilator only affected the planet, it even mentions that the Omega Wave weakening the prime zone's boundaries. It doesn't contradict Locke's statement; it works in tandem with it. If the news said a bomb took out my entire city and I tell someone my house was destroyed, we're not contradicting each other, we're talking about different aspects of the same thing. I mean, in your own recap of the plot you only say Sonic and Robotnik vanished into White Space, but I understand that you aren't saying they were the only ones affected by the Omega Wave.
Unless you're arguing semantics "an instant" and "billionth of a second" mean the same thing. The encyclopedia doesn't have to repeat Locke's exact words to get the same meaning across, it's not vague at all. The encyclopedia also doesn't separate what actually happens to Sonic and Mobius, and that's what's relevant. It mentioning Sonic specifically doesn't matter when he performs the same action as Mobius; he's mentioned to better separate him from Robotnik as it was just talking about the both of them prior. It doesn't contradict what Locke says at all. It's just like when you said "Sonic and Robotnik faded into White Space", you listing Sonic and Robotnik separatly doesn't mean they didn't both fade into White Space. If "Sonic and Robotnik faded" means they both faded, then "Sonic and Mobius [returned]" would mean they both returned, no separation. Could the encyclopedia have been clearer? Sure, but it could have been clearer a lot of different ways about a lot of different things, not just this, it was as clear as it needed to be.
The belief that Dr. Quack and Locke are mouthpieces for the author is validated by the encyclopedia repeating what they said (not verbatim mind you) as part of its narrative, solidifying that what they said was correct.
Coming to the conclusion that Sonic has type 8 relies exclusively on assumptions. (it can hardly be considered a conclusion really) We have to assume that the encyclopedia isn't as straight forward as it's written because we have to assume Sonic coming out of a ring means the ring aura brought him back because we have to assume Sonic couldn't come back like everyone else because we have to assume Sonic was going to stay annihilated because we have to assume Robotnik's clothes stayed erased because we have to assume that would for some reason cause Sonic's situation to change somehow.
But we don't have to assume any of that, if Sonic came back with Mobius the way it's (effectively) said in the encyclopedia, that's all that needs to have happened. No other story details need to be added, no blanks need to be filled in. And even if you want to argue that that is also an assumption (it really isn't) it's still only one far simpler assumption compared to at least four baseless ones.
Just as an opening question: doesn't the fact Sonic was able to be erased mean he isn't resistant to EE? Even if the ring aura is what brought him back, it didn't keep him from being erased, it brought him back afterward. I mean, everyone else came back on their own without a special ring power, why don't they get resistance?
There's no evidence either way that Robotnik's clothes were destroyed in 50, that's a big fat assumption. Him being brought back with clothes on in 108 doesn't prove anything for either of us. If they weren't destroyed, he'd need new clothes, and if they were destroyed, he'd still need new clothes. There's no reason for why he has clothes that wouldn't work in both scenarios. Robotnik believes the Annihilator has worked properly after hitting Knothole, despite the entire city being erased instead of just the Mobians. This (admittedly weirdly) implies that other things can be included with a person, but obviously not another person due to the purpose of the Annihilator. There's also that clothes seem to be considered "part of a person" when it comes to the roboticization process despite it supposedly affecting organic material. This means his clothes could be considered "part of him" for writing purposes (partially because comic logic, but still) If his clothes aren't considered "part of him" then why were they brought back with him?
Yes, Sonic does have a ring aura that protects him, but that ring aura was shown to need outside assistance just to unroboticize him. Which heavily implies it shouldn't be able to bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence all on its own. We can't draw the conclusion that Sonic returned due to his ring aura based solely on a ring being on panel. You said yourself that there are no statements about Sonic coming out of the ring. Meaning there's no concrete reason to say it's the ring aura; everything you say about it you have to come up with yourself, which is just a fancy way of saying it's unsupported.
The encyclopedia says Snivley "replaced" everyone's biodata with Robotnik's, no one else's was still programmed.
How does Dr. Quack not knowing if Sally would wake up from a coma make him unreliable when talking about the Annihilator? Not only is that completely unrelated, but it's not even him being unreliable; real-life doctors also can't predict when people will wake up from comas (yes, this is fiction, but it still doesn't work as an argument) You also can't just declare he doesn't know how the Annihilator works for no reason. Him talking about its functions proves that he is more knowledgeable than you say. The encyclopedia even confirms that what he said Snivley did is correct. If he only knows about the neutron chip, how did he know this?
The encyclopedia only mentioning Mobius blipped doesn't mean it's saying the Annihilator only affected the planet, it even mentions that the Omega Wave weakening the prime zone's boundaries. It doesn't contradict Locke's statement; it works in tandem with it. If the news said a bomb took out my entire city and I tell someone my house was destroyed, we're not contradicting each other, we're talking about different aspects of the same thing. I mean, in your own recap of the plot you only say Sonic and Robotnik vanished into White Space, but I understand that you aren't saying they were the only ones affected by the Omega Wave.
Unless you're arguing semantics "an instant" and "billionth of a second" mean the same thing. The encyclopedia doesn't have to repeat Locke's exact words to get the same meaning across, it's not vague at all. The encyclopedia also doesn't separate what actually happens to Sonic and Mobius, and that's what's relevant. It mentioning Sonic specifically doesn't matter when he performs the same action as Mobius; he's mentioned to better separate him from Robotnik as it was just talking about the both of them prior. It doesn't contradict what Locke says at all. It's just like when you said "Sonic and Robotnik faded into White Space", you listing Sonic and Robotnik separatly doesn't mean they didn't both fade into White Space. If "Sonic and Robotnik faded" means they both faded, then "Sonic and Mobius [returned]" would mean they both returned, no separation. Could the encyclopedia have been clearer? Sure, but it could have been clearer a lot of different ways about a lot of different things, not just this, it was as clear as it needed to be.
The belief that Dr. Quack and Locke are mouthpieces for the author is validated by the encyclopedia repeating what they said (not verbatim mind you) as part of its narrative, solidifying that what they said was correct.
Coming to the conclusion that Sonic has type 8 relies exclusively on assumptions. (it can hardly be considered a conclusion really) We have to assume that the encyclopedia isn't as straight forward as it's written because we have to assume Sonic coming out of a ring means the ring aura brought him back because we have to assume Sonic couldn't come back like everyone else because we have to assume Sonic was going to stay annihilated because we have to assume Robotnik's clothes stayed erased because we have to assume that would for some reason cause Sonic's situation to change somehow.
But we don't have to assume any of that, if Sonic came back with Mobius the way it's (effectively) said in the encyclopedia, that's all that needs to have happened. No other story details need to be added, no blanks need to be filled in. And even if you want to argue that that is also an assumption (it really isn't) it's still only one far simpler assumption compared to at least four baseless ones.
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- Thread starter
- #51
Ok, So you're starting to repeat things I've already addressed in my blog about perception and that there was no definitive answer. So I'm only going to respond to the ones that I feel are important to address.
Everything else I've already addressed in my blog and won't repeat myself.
Resistance: the refusal to accept or comply with something; the attempt to prevent something by action or argument.
Immunity: A. the state of being immune from or insusceptible to a particular disease or the like.
B. Exemption from any natural or usual liability.
As for the point of Sonic Ring's not having statements by other characters, that doesn't discredit the ring that saved Sonic.
No it doesn't
Yes it does, by how the story treats the word "Mobius". Especially if you treat the encyclopedia the end-all be-all for information.
So, then if the news says only your house was destroyed but you say the city was destroyed, who am I to believe? The news or one individual?
I don't think I'm gonna answer the rest of this. I feel like I'm gonna continue having to say the same things.
Everything else I've already addressed in my blog and won't repeat myself.
- doesn't the fact Sonic was able to be erased mean he isn't resistant to EE?
Resistance: the refusal to accept or comply with something; the attempt to prevent something by action or argument.
Immunity: A. the state of being immune from or insusceptible to a particular disease or the like.
B. Exemption from any natural or usual liability.
- everyone else came back on their own without a special ring power, why don't they get resistance?
- There's no evidence either way that Robotnik's clothes were destroyed in 50, that's a big fat assumption. Him being brought back with clothes on in 108 doesn't prove anything for either of us. If they weren't destroyed, he'd need new clothes, and if they were destroyed, he'd still need new clothes. There's no reason for why he has clothes that wouldn't work in both scenarios.
- Robotnik believes the Annihilator has worked properly after hitting Knothole, despite the entire city being erased instead of just the Mobians. This (admittedly weirdly) implies that other things can be included with a person, but obviously not another person due to the purpose of the Annihilator.
- This means his clothes could be considered "part of him" for writing purposes (partially because comic logic, but still) If his clothes aren't considered "part of him" then why were they brought back with him?
- shown to need outside assistance just to unroboticize him. Which heavily implies it shouldn't be able to bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence all on its own.
- You said yourself that there are no statements about Sonic coming out of the ring.
As for the point of Sonic Ring's not having statements by other characters, that doesn't discredit the ring that saved Sonic.
- The encyclopedia says Snivley "replaced" everyone's biodata with Robotnik's, no one else's was still programmed.
- (Dr. Quack) You also can't just declare he doesn't know how the Annihilator works for no reason.
- The encyclopedia even confirms that what he said Snivley did is correct. If he only knows about the neutron chip, how did he know this?
- The encyclopedia only mentioning Mobius blipped doesn't mean it's saying the Annihilator only affected the planet, it even mentions that the Omega Wave weakening the prime zone's boundaries. It doesn't contradict Locke's statement; it works in tandem with it.
Yes it does, by how the story treats the word "Mobius". Especially if you treat the encyclopedia the end-all be-all for information.
- If the news said a bomb took out my entire city and I tell someone my house was destroyed, we're not contradicting each other, we're talking about different aspects of the same thing.
So, then if the news says only your house was destroyed but you say the city was destroyed, who am I to believe? The news or one individual?
I don't think I'm gonna answer the rest of this. I feel like I'm gonna continue having to say the same things.
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- #52
- I feel like the way a lot of this is written doesn't properly convey my tone (probably could have been formatted better too) but it's a lot of crap I don't want to reword.
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The bit about my tone and formatting was referring to my last comment not your blog. I originally had it at the end which, in retrospect, better conveys that, but I moved it to the beginning to act as a preface. I apologize for any confusion.
Both of us have effectively been repeating ourselves for almost a week. I mean, my reply to basically all your responses could either be "the OP explains this" or "one of my previous comments explains this" There's only two things that seem necessary to add. The first is you seem to be under the impression that I believe the encyclopedia acts as a replacement for what's said in the comic rather than the summary it is, but considering I said they work in tandem, this is clearly not the case. The second is that beyond theshakey reasoning for type 8 based on issue 50, it's still proven false by Mephelis.
Since it's not linked on either Mobius Encyclopedia or Sonic News Network for some reason, I went to find the actual quote from Ian that 06 is canon. (because somehow a plot summary wasn't enough proof already)
He mentions that, naturaly, the stories are not one to one. This would obviously mean the encyclopedia's recount of 06 is the version canon to Archie. (note: I am not saying that only events specifically mentioned in the encyclopedia happened, but rather, that if it says something happened, it did, regardless of what the game says) Since the encyclopedia is definitive about Sonic's death, the ambiguousness of the game is irrelevant. This means the belief that Sonic's ring aura can resurect him is not only inconsistant with what we see in Mecha Madness but directly disproven by the encyclopedia.
I do agree that I would like this to be over, so I apologize.
Both of us have effectively been repeating ourselves for almost a week. I mean, my reply to basically all your responses could either be "the OP explains this" or "one of my previous comments explains this" There's only two things that seem necessary to add. The first is you seem to be under the impression that I believe the encyclopedia acts as a replacement for what's said in the comic rather than the summary it is, but considering I said they work in tandem, this is clearly not the case. The second is that beyond the
Since it's not linked on either Mobius Encyclopedia or Sonic News Network for some reason, I went to find the actual quote from Ian that 06 is canon. (because somehow a plot summary wasn't enough proof already)
He mentions that, naturaly, the stories are not one to one. This would obviously mean the encyclopedia's recount of 06 is the version canon to Archie. (note: I am not saying that only events specifically mentioned in the encyclopedia happened, but rather, that if it says something happened, it did, regardless of what the game says) Since the encyclopedia is definitive about Sonic's death, the ambiguousness of the game is irrelevant. This means the belief that Sonic's ring aura can resurect him is not only inconsistant with what we see in Mecha Madness but directly disproven by the encyclopedia.
I do agree that I would like this to be over, so I apologize.
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I don't like the main argument of it not being Eggman specific being "but he kept his clothes." Like, that's the epitome of nitpicking.
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- #55
> it's still proven false by Mephelis.
> Since the encyclopedia is definitive about Sonic's death,
> saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog and the release of Iblis.
> CANON
You want to claim Archie Sonic's 06 events played 1-to-1 exactly like the Game's, with the encyclopedia not even mentioning how Sonic died?
> Since the encyclopedia is definitive about Sonic's death,
> saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog and the release of Iblis.
> CANON
- Sonic Adventure (DX)
- Sonic Adventure 2 (Battle)
- Shadow the Hedgehog
- Sonic the Hedgehog ("Sonic06" - retcon'd itself into not being!)
- Sonic Riders
- Sonic Rush
- Sonic Rush Adventure
You want to claim Archie Sonic's 06 events played 1-to-1 exactly like the Game's, with the encyclopedia not even mentioning how Sonic died?
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Again, nuke immeasurable then. Because Solaris (Archie Comics) is a thing.
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The real cal howard said:
- Robotnik's (the 1st Robotnik wasn't called Eggman) clothes and Metal Arm disappear from existence and reappear from non existence with him.
- The entirety of Knothole disappears from the screen and Robotnik cheers at the success he thought he had.
- Locke saying that the entire Universe was wiped out of existence for a billionth of a second.
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Cal, you ******* know that's not the only reason for immesurable, plus Elixir is arguing 1-1, not that It didn't happen, immesurable is part of his core character
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Also, Foney missed the entire point of me being up Dr. Quack's statement about Sally. I suspect he didn't read my blog thoroughly enough.
ShakeResounding
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Hahahahahahahaha!The real cal howard said:
No. I feel like you know that's wrong too. Not only can Sonic move at Immeasurable speeds in Ultra (Yes, Cal, Immeasurable ca come from travelling through time), but weapons like the Sword of Acorns should have Immeasurable attack speed via ripping across the Chaos Force (Which is beyond Space-Time), and Mogul tagging the Ancient Walkers.
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We were both there at the upgrade. Yes it is. I know becuase that's one of the few drunk nights I remember fully.
Also heck no. It's not a corr part of his character. It's a throwaway line by Eggman during the fight. It's much MUCH less integral to the plot than Sonic dying which is the catalyst to Elise crying and releasing Iblis.
Also heck no. It's not a corr part of his character. It's a throwaway line by Eggman during the fight. It's much MUCH less integral to the plot than Sonic dying which is the catalyst to Elise crying and releasing Iblis.
ShakeResounding
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Edited my post.
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I'll respond to said edited post in a second. Cooking. But Discord (IDW) was supposed to be downgraded ages ago. I made that darn downgrade thread.
ShakeResounding
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I thought the downgrade was just rejected tbh.
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Realized how quickly I could respond while cooking...
Simply moving in a higher dimensional plane is no longer grounds for immeasurable. Otherwise people like Kevin Brashear would be irrelevant (don't ask. Marvel shit.)
Simply moving in a higher dimensional plane is no longer grounds for immeasurable. Otherwise people like Kevin Brashear would be irrelevant (don't ask. Marvel shit.)
ShakeResounding
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Which still leaves Mogul 420 no-scoping the Ancient Boomers and Solaris.
Also I'm not sure what you're sugfesting about Solaris. Sure, if the "Sonic does" thing is removed from the profile (speaking hypothetically) then obviously not everything is the same. But Solaris is one of those things where he's Immeasurable no matter how you slice and dice it while Iblis could've been released through different means of Elise crying. Again, I'm speaking hypotheticals here, I'm not actually arguing this.
Also I'm not sure what you're sugfesting about Solaris. Sure, if the "Sonic does" thing is removed from the profile (speaking hypothetically) then obviously not everything is the same. But Solaris is one of those things where he's Immeasurable no matter how you slice and dice it while Iblis could've been released through different means of Elise crying. Again, I'm speaking hypotheticals here, I'm not actually arguing this.
ShakeResounding
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There's more to it than that, don't be ignorant. If an argument is literally "It only affected Eggman's DNA", then it erasing not only his clothes but also a robot arm that is in no way genetically related to him needs to be answered for.The real cal howard said:
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Then it's a plot hole. Don't act like fiction is always 100% consistent with itself. Plot holes, animation errors, etc happen all the time. Goku wound up in the afterlife wearing his weighted clothing, but he didn't even die in those. Does that man Goku never died or something like that? The ninja turtles had their weapons in a scene despite them explicitly haven been taken away. Teleporting weapons?
ShakeResounding
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There's only so much where you can go "plot hole lol". Especially if there is additional evidence to aid in the argument fornit being EE, which is what seperates this from all of the examples you've named.
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Dude, it's outright said that it was recalibrated to only work on Eggman. I haven't read the entire thing because there's like, three threads, but if the best argument is that he wasn't a buck-ass naked amputee upon coming back, then I don't hesitate to call that a nitpicking non-argument.
Btw, I said it like that for humor purposes, not out of aggression.
Btw, I said it like that for humor purposes, not out of aggression.
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I went very detailed on everything going on in that event if you would like to read it in the blog, Cal.
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I had links~
ShakeResounding
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This is where I stop arguing with you lol. Cal, theres an entire blog dedicated to it for a reason. Why are you even bothering to argue if you haven't even read it? C'mon now, don't waste our timeThe real cal howard said:
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That's like a half an hour read in which I haven't had the time because I'm a College Student
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Then you can't really try to debunk my argument lol
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Actually, I should add in Foney's suggestion about Knothole turning into a crater and Robotnik thinking his machine worked into the blog as further evidence of Dr. Quack not being trusted in his Meta-information about the workings of the Ultimate Annihilator and "Bio Data".
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It doesn't matter if you say Dr. Quack is unreliable about meta-information just because he didn't know Sally was about to wake up, something that would be impossible for him to know anyway, or that he shouldn't know how the Annihilator works. The encyclopedia repeats what he says about the Annihilator targeting bio-data and Snively's meddling, confirming that he is both knowledgeable and correct, and that isn't even meta-information anyway, it's in-universe knowledge.
Robotnik's clothes being destroyed, again, doesn't necessitate Sonic being destroyed too, that's a non sequitur.
Robotnik's clothes being destroyed, again, doesn't necessitate Sonic being destroyed too, that's a non sequitur.
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You want to claim Archie Sonic's 06 events played 1-to-1 exactly like the Game's, with the encyclopedia not even mentioning how Sonic died?
Did you miss the part where Ian said the stories would be partialy to heavily tweaked? Did you miss when I literally said the stories aren't one to one? Just like the in-comic adaptations of the games, the 06 summary was written specifically for the Archie canon. If Sonic possibly dying in the game's narrative was problematic it could have been removed, but it wasn't, it was made even more definitive. Sonic's death wouldn't be written in such a clear cut way if the intention wasn't for him to be dead. It also shouldn't matter how Mephelis did it considering Sonic can allegedly come back from EE.
Did you miss the part where Ian said the stories would be partialy to heavily tweaked? Did you miss when I literally said the stories aren't one to one? Just like the in-comic adaptations of the games, the 06 summary was written specifically for the Archie canon. If Sonic possibly dying in the game's narrative was problematic it could have been removed, but it wasn't, it was made even more definitive. Sonic's death wouldn't be written in such a clear cut way if the intention wasn't for him to be dead. It also shouldn't matter how Mephelis did it considering Sonic can allegedly come back from EE.
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> saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog
Archie Sonic Comic Encyclopedia's phrase has as much supporting evidence as the phrase "The Death of Superman" when he fought Doomsday.
Especially when we know Archie Sonic 06 isn't a 1-to-1 adaption just like "Shadow the Hedgehog" was label canon by Ian Flynn without any of the events happening in the Comic from that game.
Archie Sonic Comic Encyclopedia's phrase has as much supporting evidence as the phrase "The Death of Superman" when he fought Doomsday.
Especially when we know Archie Sonic 06 isn't a 1-to-1 adaption just like "Shadow the Hedgehog" was label canon by Ian Flynn without any of the events happening in the Comic from that game.
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