Arceus vs Hades(Saint Seiya) 2.0

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Since the last thread was removed due to "faulty arguments" then I say lets redo it. Both are bloodlusted and speed is equalized due to the massive speed advantage Arceus would have. Gotta make this as fair as possible.

This is both at their current peaks.

Arceus:8

Hades:3


Now since this is indeed a rematch thread I will vote on this one and give my starting Argument.
I say Arceus wins due to:

-Conceptual Manipulation

-Higher Attack Potency

-His plates are indeed helpful

-And overall seems to have better hax.

"Death is the Absolute Salvation..."

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Arceus is more powerful (a guy who's 2-C vs a guy who kicks 2-C ass casually), and he has either

1) Better versions of Hades' techniques,

or

2) the same abilities.


Arceus just takes this due to being more powerful and versatile IMO

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So

Arceus:2

Hades:0

 

[RadicalMrR]

Close (literally the only other 2-C that i've seen to have a good chance) though I give it Arceus due to plates,pre-cog and a strategically placed perish song.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My reasoning stays the same. Arceus is likely on a higher level of 2-C, conceptual manipulation on willpower overrides Hades' will, which is how he holds his universes together, and plate hax stops most of Hades' manipulation, with spooky and iron plates stopping the sword. Also, Future Sight likely ignores the surplice, and will one-shot due to hitting the low 2-C under him

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I though not much would change but hey.

Arceus:4

Hades:0

 

[Tivanenk]

Okay. First of all, you're all ignoring that Arceus doesn't even have any Acausality, which means that he's screwed against Hades' Causality Manipulation.

Second, Hades took on several Titans at the same time his brother was fighting Cronus, so he also fought several 2-Cs at the same time as well. He is also one of the Three Emperors, so while he is weaker than Zeus (who's 2-B), he's not that much weaker than him.

Third, Hades' Sword is extra-dimensional and can slice through 4-D souls and Cosmo. Show me anywhere where the plates are blocking such attacks. Or Causality Manipulation for that matter.

Fourth, Perish Song and Future Sight are jokes. I highly doubt Perish Song would one shot the God of Death for crying out loud, considering that attacks like Thanatos' Divine Providence, which literally induce death didn't work on Seiya. Which means it will definitely not work on Hades, especially considering he controls death. Future Sight can easily be dodged by Hades or sliced apart considering it's literally just a projectile of psychic energy.

Fifth, willpower and mind control techniques are numerous in Saint Seiya and have never really worked against any high tier. Especially considering that Gods have numerous mental and spiritual defenses (in fact, anyone with 6th sense does).

So finally, Arceus doesn't have acausality nor can it defend itself against extra-dimensional attacks. It loses.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Arceus' Regenerationn is awful compared to Hades' Regenerationn, and that's another huge advantage he has.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So Arceus:4

Hades:1

 

[BruceTheBatman]

@Tiv

Okay. Arceus has existed before time so removing him from existence or preventing him from being born, or something similar wouldn't work.

Low 2-C's who are far weaker on the spectrum than the Creation Trio and Arceus godstomped them without trying

Psychic types, dark types and a few others have soul manipulation.

His title of God of Death isn't as big-deal as god of everything.

Then they cancel out


Arceus is still far more powerful and more versatile than Hades

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay. First of all, you're all ignoring that Arceus doesn't even have any Acausality, which means that he's screwed against Hades' Causality Manipulation.
Second, Hades took on several Titans at the same time his brother was fighting Cronus, so he also fought several 2-Cs at the same time as well. He is also one of the Three Emperors, so while he is weaker than Zeus (who's 2-B), he's not that much weaker than him.

Third, Hades' Sword is extra-dimensional and can slice through 4-D souls and Cosmo. Show me anywhere where the plates are blocking such attacks. Or Causality Manipulation for that matter.

Fourth, Perish Song and Future Sight are jokes. I highly doubt Perish Song would one shot the God of Death for crying out loud, considering that attacks like Thanatos' Divine Providence, which literally induce death didn't work on Seiya. Which means it will definitely not work on Hades, especially considering he controls death. Future Sight can easily be dodged by Hades or sliced apart considering it's literally just a projectile of psychic energy.

Fifth, willpower and mind control techniques are numerous in Saint Seiya and have never really worked against any high tier. Especially considering that Gods have numerous mental and spiritual defenses (in fact, anyone with 6th sense does).

So finally, Arceus doesn't have acausality nor can it defend itself against extra-dimensional attacks. It loses.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Arceus' Regenerationn is awful compared to Hades' Regenerationn, and that's another huge advantage he has.

I was going to explain why, but it's basically this.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So

Arceus:4

Hades:2

 

[Tivanenk]

@BTB You just refuted nothing of what I said.

"Okay. Arceus has existed before time so removing him from existence or preventing him from being born, or something similar wouldn't work."

Causality manipulation still would work. Hades would be able to rewind his actions, for instance. You need acausality to prevent this. Simply existing before time is not enough.

"Low 2-C's who are far weaker on the spectrum than the Creation Trio and Arceus godstomped them without trying."

Your point? Hades was also effortlessly take down Low 2-Cs.

"Psychic types, dark types and a few others have soul manipulation."

And? So does Hades. He can control his own soul too.

So far, you presented nothing that can counter the Sword of Hades, which only takes one hit to win, and Arceus takes an awful lot of hits. Also, Hades has much better Regenerationn and can rewind his actions with causality manipulations, making pre-cog effectively useless.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, the feat that renders Hades 2-C (Sustaining Hell, Elysium and The Hyperdimension's existences) is done by his passive energy. That doesn't exert him in the slightest. He is likely at least 10s of times more powerful than that feat.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Conceptual manipulation > causality manipulation. I've asked this long ago.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I'm fairly sure to be above 3-A you have to be at least 4 dimensional.Plus attack refelction and Negation screw that sword ether way.

Arceus can fight with 2-C in the mid range with little effort in a weakened state.

Perish song doesn't even kill dude it just completely knocks out it's opponents and future sight is meant to be an unpredictable attack not some projectile.

Ok Arceus doesn't have causality resistance but Hades doesn't have a resistance to a reality warping so powerful that is can poof things in and out of existence or something to stop his high level conceptual manipulation that can make time,space,emotions,etc.

With verse equalization most attacks fall into a pokemon type,mind(psychic),soul(ghost),etc.

 

[Tivanenk]

Conceptual manipulation > causality manipulation. I've asked this long ago.

Even if that's true, Arceus has no resistance against causality manipulation.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Heck. Causality manipulation is chump change in tier 2. It even says so on the hax page. Not only that, but to be immesurable, let alone omnipresent, you have to be beyond causality already. And Arceus's bare minimum for universes is around a hundred. Max is far more.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What's stopping Arceus from erasing Hades' sword out of existence? What's protecting Hades from Conceptual Manipulation? What if Arceus makes himself intangible? Can Hades hit non-corporeal opponents? Plus Conceptual Manipulation>Causality Manipulation. Also Arceus' Reality Warping is higher than Hades. Plus Arceus' plate protect him from a majority of attacks.

Dark-Darkness

Ghost:Spirtual/Soul and apparently antimatter.....

Dragon-Time and Space...apparently...

 

[Tivanenk]

Hades is protected from both reality warping and causality manipulation by his OWN resistances (he and/or other gods have proven to have these resistances) and Hades' sword has the same resistances as it fought against Titans who have reality warping as well as numerous manipulation of concepts (such as information control). How is Arceus' reality warping > Hades? Hades' reality warping is comparable to Titans' reality warping who created entire universes with their own concepts.

Also, Pokemon doesn't have extra dimensional attacks nor causality manipulation attacks so the plates are moot.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>Extra dimensional attacks

That's imputing that Hades is high 2-A or more. Any tier 2 worth their salt has higher dimensional attacks. For Pokemon, Roar of Time. Spatial Rend. Judgement.

Arceus created beings that created dozens upon dozens of universes with their own concepts.

I'm ending the conceptual vs causality with the answer I was given. Is causality a concept? Yes? Then that's that.

 

[Tivanenk]

I'm fairly sure to be above 3-A you have to be at least 4 dimensional.Plus attack refelction and Negation screw that sword ether way.
Arceus can fight with 2-C in the mid range with little effort in a weakened state.

Perish song doesn't even kill dude it just completely knocks out it's opponents and future sight is meant to be an unpredictable attack not some projectile.

Ok Arceus doesn't have causality resistance but Hades doesn't have a resistance to a reality warping so powerful that is can poof things in and out of existence or something to stop his high level conceptual manipulation that can make time,space,emotions,etc.

With verse equalization most attacks fall into a pokemon type,mind(psychic),soul(ghost),etc.

No you don't. You can still be 3-D and take down 4-D constructs. Attack reflection is moot considering every single god has attack reflection and the sword bypasses that.

Even worse for Perish Song, especially since it is a sound based move. Both Rhadamanthys and Hades were able to be immune to Lyra Orphee's Death Serenade which knocks out the opponent and sends their soul to another dimension.

Future Sight is literally a hunk of psychic energy. It even says so in its description.

Hades does have reality warping resistance as he fought Titans and other Olympians, all of whom have reality warping, and his sword is immune to it too as it's a godly weapon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Define Extra Dimensional. Yet the concept of Causality would exist. How does Causality effect one beyond time itself? One who created the concepts of existence itself?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If Future Sight hits, it's gonna kill Hades. It will ignore the surplice because it ignores shields.

 

[Tivanenk]

Define Extra Dimensional. Yet the concept of Causality would exist. How does Causality effect one beyond time itself? One who created the concepts of existence itself?

4-D attack. So? Even if Arceus can create those concepts, it does not mean he's immune to those concepts unless he showed it OR he transcends 4-D existence, which he doesn't. If so, kindly post his resistance to them/transcendence here.

 

[Tivanenk]

If Future Sight hits, it's gonna kill Hades. It will ignore the surplice because it ignores shields.

First: Only if it hits, as it's described as a hunk of psychic energy, which means it's a projectile.

Second: It's way too slow to buildup.

Third: It never oneshot anyone as it doesn't ignore durability, only shields. And I'm not even sure if it bypasses Divine Cosmo negation (but I'll give the benefit of the doubt).

Fourth: Hades can simply reconstruct his body with atomic Regenerationn. Arceus only has low Regenerationn which means Hades only needs one good hit to kill him while Arceus actually needs to one shot him, which he can't.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Here are the games descriptions of it which are primary canon.

A special Psychic-type attack. It strikes the target two turns after it is used. An attack that hits on 3rd turn.

Heightens inner power to strike 2 turns later.

Two turns after this move is used, the foe is attacked psychically.

Two turns after this move is used, the foe is attacked with a hunk of psychic energy.

Two turns after this move is used, a hunk of psychic energy attacks the target.

The closest thing to projectile is psychic energy which is itself a non tangible energy so...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It would one shot because without Hades' surplice, his dura is low 2-C. Due to verse equalization, Arceus would have Divine Coamos due to his status as a supreme being. And Hades would need a killing blow to end Arceus, and considering all of his plates, and the auto shield, it wouldn't be likely. Also, atomic Regenerationn is actually laughable at tier 2, as reality warping and spatial manipulation get rid of that real quick.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Since when has Hades transcended 4-D existence? You are implying he's High 2-A. Something I've never done for Arceus. Also, future sight ignore's shields, ignoring his surplice. Hades has no defense against conceptual manipulation. Plus, what if none of Hades moves hit? Just like you assume Future Sight will not hit. Plus it will one-shot Hades due to his durability without the surplice being only Low 2-C.

 

[RadicalMrR]

4-D attack. So? Even if Arceus can create those concepts, it does not mean he's immune to those concepts unless he showed it OR he transcends 4-D existence, which he doesn't. If so, kindly post his resistance to them/transcendence here.

His freaking plates dude.It negates those types of attacks.Space and Time are Dragon type so he nagates them.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also how did Athena defeat Hades? There is some weakness to this invincible God of the Underworld.

Also

Arceus:5

Hades:2

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Characters with abilities that can ignore one or multiple statistics of opponents or make them irrelevant to a certain extent.

Take note that hax is something relative. For example, atomic destruction, and time stop, are hax abilities for tier 8, but not for tier 2.

Reality/probability/causality warping abilities are not hax for cosmic entities, they are mediocre for beings of this level. Hax is something that should grant a significant advantage over opponents with equal statistics.

Just thought I would post this, considering how most of the things going for Hades isn't that good in tier 2.

Also, what's stopping Arceus from pulling a Giorno and getting rid of Hades willpower, or even worse, creating a ton of Palkias, Dialgas, Giratinas, Azelfs, Mesprits, and Uxies to help him out?

 

[Tivanenk]

4-D attack. So? Even if Arceus can create those concepts, it does not mean he's immune to those concepts unless he showed it OR he transcends 4-D existence, which he doesn't. If so, kindly post his resistance to them/transcendence here.

His freaking plates dude.It negates those types of attacks.Space and Time are Dragon type so he nagates them.

Show me one type of causal or extra-dimensional attack in the game.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You keep saying Causality this and Causality that, but you haven't gone against the fact that Arceus' Conceptual Manipulation trumps Hades Causality Manipulation.

 

[KillitwithC4]

I think Hades wins this for Tivanenk's reasons.

 

[Tivanenk]

It would one shot because without Hades' surplice, his dura is low 2-C. Due to verse equalization, Arceus would have Divine Coamos due to his status as a supreme being. And Hades would need a killing blow to end Arceus, and considering all of his plates, and the auto shield, it wouldn't be likely. Also, atomic Regenerationn is actually laughable at tier 2, as reality warping and spatial manipulation get rid of that real quick.

Erm, his Surplice isn't a shield though. It's a part of him and also charged with his Divine Cosmo. And Arceus doesn't have Regenerationn. Also, reality warping and spatial manipulation don't work on Divine Attacks considering that Titans have those and they still lost to Hades.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Roar_of_Time_(move)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Spacial_Rend_(move)

And that doesn't even count the anime and manga, where these Pokemon get actual feats instead of game mechanics.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Arceus:5

Hades:3

 

[Tivanenk]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Roar_of_Time_(move)
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Spacial_Rend_(move)

And that doesn't even count the anime and manga, where these Pokemon get actual feats instead of game mechanics.

Those are not extra-dimensional or causal attacks. Try again.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Arceus for reasons above. Too much hax and power for Hades to deal with.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Looking at the definition of surplice. Surplice is clothing. How can clothing be a part of him?