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Arceus Qualitative Upgrade

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Everything12

The Heavenly Fount
VS Battles
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The Main Proposal
Arceus is the "God who transcends everything", whose realm is far beyond both the infinite space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time and the Distortion World, which lacks time and direction.

The true form of Arceus is the Heart/Original Spirit, an all-encompassing absolute existence who gave birth to the world, both the regular world and Giratina's, through perceiving it. Within it all the people and Pokemon were the same being, they were all the same within its consciousness all possessing the same heart. Even the concepts which formed creation were mixed within itself, before it emanated them into existence. It is the primordial consciousness, that is both a part of everything and outside everything, beyond time and space, and everything material, spiritual or nonexistent. It is only through it's physical manifestation, that itself is beyond both time and space and the reach of everything else in the world, that it can see and walk the world on the same level as it's inhabitants.

The Original Spirit and Chaos
When talking about Arceus their are actual few mentions of it in the primary canon, mostly restricted to the Canalave Library myth, the engravings on the Plates, and the myth given by the Miner when you show them Arceus. However, withe appearance of Arceus in Legends: Arceus we were shown that those myths weren't just stories but contained actual factual evidence. However, despite this fact they are still presented as myths and so are poetic in nature and what they say can be up to interpretation, which is why the further explain the nature of Arceus I will give my own understanding of these myths based on the context of me being knowledge on the Pokemon series.

In the beginning their was only a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all things become one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
Time started to spin. Space began to expand.

Now when reading this particular text it seems as if it only talks about the Original One, and isn't too relevant to Arceus' true form. However, I'd like to point to the line:
"At the heart of chaos, where all things become one, appeared an Egg."

A heart where all things are one, this is similar description to the descriptions given of Arceus' true form as all-encompassing shared heart of people and Pokemon which gave birth to the world and the Original One. Through this understanding it can be read that the chaos is actually a metaphor for Arceus' true form, with the egg and tumbling from the chaos being a metaphorical description of Arceus creating it's avatar within the lower world it will soon create.

The "Birth" of the Original Spirit
"The way I see, our world began when the spirit within people was born.
When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness awareness about the world."
"Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one.
People and Pokemon, too, were but the same presence.
As I understand it, people and Pokemon shared the spirit and awareness.
They should have understood and accepted each other then.
Because they shared the same spirit, people and Pokemon intermingled.
People took the place of Pokemon, and the opposite held true.
That interpenetration could give us an idea of how our world came to be."
Now these two quotes seem to suggest that the Original Spirit is not an eternal being that always existed, but actual came into being. I however think this surface level interpretation is not the actual meaning of what is being said, instead of talking about the creation of the Original Spirit it is instead talking about it's metaphorical birth into the world it created.

The first quote talks about how the spirit was born and this gave awareness leading to the world's creation, but I'd like to point out another point where Arceus and perception a linked together.
"Upon thee..and upon this creation where thou now dwellest...
I bestow my blessing.
And I bestow upon thee a part of myself.
I would walk this path world together with thee. Show me how it appeareth in thine eyes."
This is what Arceus says when it gives the trainer in Legends Arceus it's avatar. It uses the avatar to see the world in a difference perspective, to gain awareness of the world from the view of the people and Pokemon.

As for the second quote I reference this, the second of which comes from Arceus' Plates:
"From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand."
"Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One."

As well as the Hiker's own mussing on the subject:
"Hmm... The Spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...
That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokemon of time, and Palkia, the Pokemon of space...
And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokemon that made them arise."

So when it talks about the spirit being born, it's talking about it's creation of the Original One and through this avatar it gained a new awareness of the world, through seeing it how the people and Pokemon will see it in the future when they dwell in the world, and through this the creation of the world. Thus the spirit was never created or experience any actual change itself.

Conclusion
I think that the Original Spirit should be Tier 0 it's nature of being the almighty all-encompassing deity that is transcendent of everything, existing both within and outside all things. Though it should get at least 1-A if this isn't considered enough.

Meanwhile, the Original One should get a additional Possibly Low 1-A tier for having created it's realm that is beyond dimensions.
 
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Well, I can't say anything about this meteor hurting the omnipotent being and all that. Because in the new system any interaction feat counted as an anti-feat, but I don't know how Ultima interprets the situation here.

I think it's best to leave it to him (y)
 
Again, that was an avatar that is at most being proposed to being Low 1-A, because it has feats of being interacted by lesser things. But on the other side because it's ONLY through an avatar that lesser beings can interact with Arceus it serves as supporting evidence of Arceus' true form being transcendent of the rest of reality.
 
Again, that was an avatar that is at most being proposed to being Low 1-A, because it has feats of being interacted by lesser things. But on the other side because it's ONLY through an avatar that lesser beings can interact with Arceus it serves as supporting evidence of Arceus' true form being transcendent of the rest of reality.
Low 1-A Avatar? Let's leave that to Ultima but I don't think that will happen, I have no idea if interaction feats can be count an anti-feat in Low 1-A.

But I agree with 1-A in true form, Arceus was already on Ultima's BDE type 2 list. IDK about tier 0
 
I'm not going to lie, I have the feeling that some of the people commenting in this thread has either not fully read or fully comprehended the opening post as I'm seeing stuff that I think is at least somewhat explained there.
Yeah, I realized after you said it. Low 1-A basically comes from here i guess...
Meanwhile, the Original One should get a additional Possibly Low 1-A tier for having created it's realm that is beyond dimensions.
I don't know, a realm beyond dimensions doesn't give 1-A? Is there basically exist one being in this realm or is there more than one being? IDK about that.
 
Absolutely no on Tier 0. Yes for 1-A for original spirit.

Completely neutral on Low 1-A for the avatar. I would like to see what the knowledgeable staff has to say.
 
I don't believe Tier 0 flies here, no. The justification of "It's a metaphor for the Heart experiencing the world through its avatar" doesn't seem to work, seeing as "the Heart was born" and "The Heart began to perceive the world" are referred to as distinct stages, the latter happening "after" the first. Furthermore, the same series of scans talks about how "The Pokemon said to have created the world" can be thought of as a manifestation of the Heart. So if the Avatar / Original One is like the demiurge that fashioned the universe and is therefore included among those, then that's more evidence that the "birth" of the Heart is not talking about a metaphorical descent into the universe.

I'm generally pretty open-minded to the possibility of verbiage like this being just poetry and metaphor, but I think this is just not there in this case, unfortunately.

That said, I have no problem with the Heart being 1-A, since, to my understanding, it encompasses both space and time, and unifies them as one and the same thing within itself, and at the same time is greater than them. Seems pretty textbook 1-A, yeah.

Don't think Low 1-A for the Avatar works, though.
 
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Remember when the tier 1 bargain sale was limited to just L1-C? good times.

1-A and higher is still way above my head (even after reading the updated standards) but seeing a Nintendo franchise potentially reach it (my money was on Xenoblade Chronicles tbh) is so surreal to the point where I kinda feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone Act 3. I may not really follow nor support Pokémon as often as I did in the past on this site but if the lovecraftian cosmic space llama-horse hybrid deity does meet the new standards I guess I tentatively agree with 1-A heart/true form but the avatar tiering is too much of a mess of PiS, inconsistencies, contradictions, cosmic feats and lore madness for me to give an opinion on, one way or another (perhaps a varies tier might work?).

Also I don't know if this helps but most of the evidence comes directly from the games (core/primary canon) meanwhile most if not all the PiS/anti-feats comes from the anime (secondary canon) and manga (tertiary canon) which combined with Pokémon (verse) being de-composited on the Wiki, does actually make whatever tier Arceus (avatar) ends up being less prone to inconsistencies/low ends, if I'm understanding correctly?

I'll keep on an eye on this thread for new points though considering both Ultima and Planck already agreed I feel this thread is gonna be concluded surprisingly quick and cleanly (relatively speaking).

I'll pay for a debate between DT and Ultima over pancakes Vs waffles tho.
 
holy shit based, i agree with 1-A heart, but stuff higher than that seems to usually requires the cosmology itself to reach 1-A for it to be possible, outside of cheating with certain concepts and maths (prior to the new system)

not sure about the low 1-A, doesn't that require infinite dimensions to achieve?

Don't we currently consider the plates as containing pieces of the heart's power or something, since we also treat them as being part of the avatar's life and power, shouldn't it downscale from it's true form power and hax wise?
 
holy shit based, i agree with 1-A heart, but stuff higher than that seems to usually requires the cosmology itself to reach 1-A for it to be possible, outside of cheating with certain concepts and maths (prior to the new system)

not sure about the low 1-A, but don't we currently consider the plates as containing pieces of the heart's power or something, since we also treat them as being part of the avatar's life and power, shouldn't it downscale from it's true form power and hax wise?
Nope, the Plates only scale to the avatar.
 
Wait... Are actually getting 1-A Arceus on here? Not gonna lie, I didn't think this day would come or at least this soon.

Anyways, I'm leaning towards agreeing for 1-A Heart and neutral for avatar
 
This feels like a fever dream. I'm just gonna watch this for a bit to see where this goes.
But in my opinion, I like 1-A Heart. Low 1-A avatars might take a bit more convincing though.
 
Yeah, I think for Low 1-A avatar I probably need to first establish that the avatar's power can vary and give more focus on it's realm. That will be another thread as I don't have everything set out yet.
 
Wow. 1-A Arceus feels like I'm genuinely having another schizo moment. But I digress:
1-A for the Heart seems fine and makes sense. Any higher for it would require more evidence. The Avatar is a pain in the butt to determine a tier for so I'm not touching that period.
 
1-A OS Arceus seems very obvious and I agree with that tiering. Put me in agree for that. Seems like everyone else here is fine with that too.

However, regarding the avatars, I am very skeptical of them being Low 1-A. You're going to have to suspend my disbelief especially with what I've seen in the manga/anime. So put me in neutral/disagree regarding the avatars.

TBF I was never a fan of Arceus avatars being low 1-C in the previous tiering system, but that's completely off topic.
 
Question? Will the current Low 1-C still stand? Transcending and being beyond space and time seems more like qualitive superiority than quantitative? Especially if Low 1-A isn't cutting it here for the Llama?
 
1-A looks pretty good

I personally think that Tier 0 is iffy considering how the statement can be interpreted as a non-literal thing

I can see the logic behind the Low 1-A for the avatar form, but better context regarding it and the relation between him and the plates would be helpful on determining a rating
 
Pretty sure the avatar Low 1-C comes from creating a realm that surpasses space-time and is unreachable to 4D beings or sth along those lines in this case
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need some form of proof of infinite spatial-temporal dimensions to get outer even with these sorts of statements?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need some form of proof of infinite spatial-temporal dimensions to get outer even with these sorts of statements?
Those are old standards, R>F transcendence (or something similar like esoteric QS and BDE) can get to 1-A now as long as it's absolute transcendence meaning the character can't have any anti-feats like being affected by infinitely weaker beings (in Arceus' case the Heart has no such anti-feats since it uses avatars to interact with the setting hence the discourse for the rating of the avatars since they do have anti-feats).

In simpler terms it's kinda like how a character can be 5D/L1-C here even if the verse doesn't have a multiverse (tho admittedly a lot more detailed).
 
Honestly I think the issue is that in the anime and manga the avatar is generally depicted as stronger than the Creation Trio but not full on qualitative superiority because they like to have it more involved in the conflict (beyond Pokemon Journey's which were being used to promote Legends Arceus so probably had more direction then usual). While the games made by Game Freak treat Arceus as more an omnipotent god figure who doesn't get involved too much and so is vastly superior to even the Creation Trio.

Perhaps a separate key's for avatars, one that focuses on the secondary canon to scale them to the Creation Trio, while a primary canon one which scales them to their realm which can argued to be either Low 1-C or Low 1-A based on the interpretation of being beyond space and time; which can either be just a single dimension beyond the multiverse and the disotrtion world or just beyond dimensionality?
 
Agreed on Original Spirit being 1-A.

Neutral on the avatar. Mostly due to the anti feats mentioned. A varied key like Everything12 mentioned can work imo.
 
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could someone list the anti feats avatar arceus has? i legit only remember him fighting the creation trio in like, the jewel of life movie, and i don't think i need to explain why the old depiction of arceus full of plot stuff for nerfing would count

outside of that, the only other interventions i recall from arceus had him fix stuff easily, like the heatran with his plate or alternate team rocket messing with palkia and dialga
 
could someone list the anti feats avatar arceus has? i legit only remember him fighting the creation trio in like, the jewel of life movie, and i don't think i need to explain why the old depiction of arceus full of plot stuff for nerfing would count

outside of that, the only other interventions i recall from arceus had him fix stuff easily, like the heatran with his plate or alternate team rocket messing with palkia and dialga
ikr, arceus being 1-A is gonna make this stuff even weirder…

the creators of pokemon clearly can’t write characters this OP lol
 
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