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So I said I'd do this a while ago, and after reading through probably 99% of the translated material, playing through the video game + dlc content, and even deciphering through some of the untranslated WoG, I feel like I'm finally ready to at least get this revision started.
The simplest and easiest issues to deal with is what I'll start off with.
The next few issues are the ones I expect to be more contentious or otherwise difficult than the above, but these are pretty relevant issues to the verse as a whole that need to be addressed.
The Over Reliance of Game Mechanics for Stats and Scaling
Is probably the biggest issue with the current profiles, and not immediately the easiest one to answer. As far as I'm aware, the majority if not all profiles currently use their in-game "Attack Ability" statistic in relation to other characters with actual proper feats in order to scale to or around them. The practice should already sound faulty enough on its own, but is actually worse in context, since Attack Ability itself in game equally relies on attributes like speed and accuracy, and is even boosted by abilities like Time Manipulation and Precognition, which obviously have nothing to do with AP. Additionally, in game stats and levels, if taken as any measure of power scaling, actually contradict the legitimate feats characters perform in-game as well as the lore. For instance, Red Lady (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) is encountered by both The Nameless and Ergo Mundus throughout GoM, and while she's explicitly stated to be unable to defeat any of the Messengers on her own, she'as repeatedly shown to be able to keep up with both John and Ergo in combat if only temporarily. She held her own against the Bearer long enough to stall for prolonged periods of time, and can create magical barriers that even Ergo can't break through with brute force. She was even able to mortally wound The Nameless near the end of Gate of Memories... She's currently High 7-C to Ergo and Nameless's High 6-B because her in game stats are close to Chtho. And this is only one of many numerous examples of awful scaling via game mechanics. If this was the only topic of the thread, I'd list more, but I think you likely get the point.
Like I said, this issue isn't immediately easily solved for characters without actual legitimate scaling for those with feats, but I do have three possible solutions to propose.
1. (which is my personal preferred option). Just don't scale via stats... period. I know this might seem a little strict, but it's clear that the in game stats are inconsistent with the actual feats, or at the very least can't reliably be used for scaling. In this case, we only scale feats to those with statements or valid implications of being scaleable to each other. And those who don't scale to anyone? Well, use their own feats when applicable, even if they're unimpressive. In lack of feats, use the safest assumptions. It's what real world references are there for.
2. (And I'm only proposing this because I don't see the harm in it in the off-chance no contradictions actually arise). For characters without any other legitimate method of scaling, and only those characters, so long as their in-game statistics don't contradict actual legitimate feats or lore, this kind of scaling might be okay? I don't exactly encourage the idea, but I don't see the harm in doing so as a last possible scenario for those with absolutely no other option. Again, I personally don't really consider it to be the best or most accurate method, but in certain select cases, it could honestly be the best one we've got I suppose.
3. The stats can be used as a baseline for those without feats or scaling by using the environmental damage indicated by fights at their level as a guideline. For instance, 150+ and 200+ seem to be different degrees of Wall Level, 300+ creates shockwaves that can shatter buildings, and 400+ "shakes creation" and sparks flying from blows produce "enormous craters". If we use this as a baseline rather than the feats a specific character, it doesn't cause any contradiction.
I should definitely clarify that while I prefer option 1 or 3, in the end I'm fully neutral about which one of these or even a potential third option gets decided on. The biggest issue here for me is that this type of scaling seems to be taking priority over and even contradicting the more legitimate methods available to us.
Now then, the last thing I want to bring up is actually relatively simple.
Anima has Tier 2 feats
How far into tier 2? Well there's a number of feats, which genuinely range from Low 2-C to potentially High 2-A and literally everything in between. I honestly wish I was joking. Below I'll list the ones I can recall from lowest to highest, but some will obviously be more straight-forward than others.
I want to make it particularly clear that I don't personally believe in every single one of these being correct, at least without further context, but for argument's sake, I've included even the questionable ones just so that all of the relevant information regarding tier 2 stuff is there. Assume that I'm proposing all of this be accepted, and shoot down the ones you think of as nonsensical.
Low 2-C
Tawil creates isolated timelines when invoked. "Different timeline" and "infinite universe" are both specifically used to describe the place the target is BFR'd to so this is pretty blatant. Tawil is the Aeon embodying the concept of time and space, and is actually one of the strongest beings in verse who isn't a Shajad/Beryl or above. Definitely not an outlier, though these types of feats are pretty consistent so it probably wouldn't be one regardless. The Dragon (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) and stronger characters like the Shajad/Beryls would scale to this.
Prison of Light and Prison of Darkness. These spells "Enclose the target in a separate universe with no interaction to our own." Said universes can actually be destroyed in-game by producing some pretty absurd amounts of damage. This one is admittedly more questionable than Tawil's feat above, but it being a universe is consistent with the number of universe level feats in-verse and makes just enough sense in context to not be an outlier. Prison of Light and Darkness are both examples of "Divine Magic" which is flat out stated to be too powerful for mortals to use. The only characters that would have access to spells like these are ones who already scale to similar feats or better. As the originator of magical spells in general, Etheldrea should be capable of producing both of these, and through the wonderful web of powerscaling that is Gate of Memories, just about every Messenger scales, as does everyone comparable to them. Of course, this isn't the only feat this applies to so let's carry on.
2-C
If Baal were to fully manifest itself into the world, it would "merge with existence", engulfing everything and turning reality into a "true hell". This never actually happened, but Etheldrea, The Nameless, and some other big names were involved in the combined effort to stop it, battling against Baal's incomplete form, and managing to seal its true form before it was too late. Etheldrea and Elienai were among those responsible for said sealing, so the potency of such abilities for them should scale. Outside of that, obviously the Beryls and such are above this.
Rah nearly destroys "all of creation", forcing C'iel and Gaira themselves to intervene before it's too late. "All of creation" in this context is implicitly a big deal considering that the absolute god tiers themselves needed to step in in order to stop it. Even though the destruction of existence as a whole was stopped, both the physical and spiritual/conceptual world were threatened and even irreparably affected by this event. The threat Ergo Mundus posed is later directly compared to this event, and in the bad ending for Gate of Memories, it's implied that he goes on to end all of existence himself. As before, thanks to Gate of Memories, just about every Messenger scales for either being directly stated to be comparable or above him like Bringreus, actually fighting him and not getting stomped, like Jonathan Kappel and Nascal Mehirim, or both, like Malekith, Prince of Crows.
Powers in the Shadow possess technology and magic superior to what Rah used to threaten reality, and if the individual factions comprising these Powers fought among each other, all of existence would be irreparably torn apart with nothing left behind. Following the activation of Rah's machine, the Powers split the reality into three individual planes of existence. Ergo Mundus's power was respected by The Imperium to the point that they tried to recruit him. Yada yada scales to every other Messenger blah blah.
2-B
The "Dream Walker" ability refers to an individual's dream as their "oneiric universe", which would mean countless universes exist somewhere inside their own areas of The Wake. Since this is the only instance of dreams themselves being referred to as "universes", it's more than likely to just be flowery language so I wouldn't put too much stock into it personally. Still, if the implications here happened to be legit, all of the above 2-C feats would be 2-B, so it's worth mentioning at least.
2-A(?)
Both potential "2-A" feats are questionable, but they are worth bringing up in any case.
Rah's above feat of threatening "all of creation" was done by channeling the souls of all of the victims of the ongoing war, (over 100 million to be exact), whereas the Nexus itself literally contains an infinite amount of souls. Anyone with the ability to manipulate the Nexus as a whole should have the ability to reproduce such a feat on an infinite scale.
On a similar note, Baal was able to absorb and assimilate the souls of an infinite number of demons when it was "born.
Again, I'm personally iffy on these. The logic checks out in my opinion, but I'm not sure about our standards for these kinds of feats, and it honestly might be worth its own thread to determine whether or not infinite amounts of 2-C or 2-B power qualifies for 2-A. In any case, until the standards themselves are made clear, I'd only consider 2-A for a "possibly" rating at best.
High 2-A/Low 1-C
This one should be relatively simple. The Nexus of Souls is the birthplace of all concepts, which as shown above, includes that of Time and Space, and transcending such concepts should make one 5-D. Shajad, Beryls, C'iel and Gaira all exist beyond the Soul Flux in its entirety, outside of its influence. They chose to bind themselves to specific concepts within the structure of reality because prior to doing so they existed only beyond it. Their power is also compared to nigh-omnipotence within reality.
All of the relevant information for this one can be found in the blog I linked to it, so go ahead and judge for yourself.
There is more stuff to go over in terms of scaling but it can likely wait until specific tiers are decided upon.
Again, most if not all of the relevant information for this is in already made blogs, so if you feel like something is missing, check those first. With that being said, go ahead and evaluate.
The simplest and easiest issues to deal with is what I'll start off with.
| Standard Resistances from MR (etc) |
|---|
| Most Anima profiles are missing standard resistances from MR, PsR, PhR, DR, VR (etc) which are expanded upon in this blog. Currently many of the profiles simply say something either along the lines of "Resistance to Magic, Poison Manipulation, Disease Manipulation and Mind Manipulation" (which is an oversimplification of what these resistances really account for), or "Resistance to Status Effect Inducement (Can resist any alteration of the body and mind, as well as animic effects.)", which is... extremely vague to say the least, It's worth noting that a fair number of resistances are missing even from the above blog, but it can just be added to over time if necessary. |
| Standard Gnosis Abilities |
|---|
| The next simplest thing is that most characters in Anima (and by most I really mean just about anyone worth a profile) have an ability called Gnosis, which I go into detail about in this blog here. Just like the above resistances, I'm proposing that the standard abilities granted by Gnosis be added to all of the applicable profiles. (Yes, I'm aware that the blog is still missing scans, and I'll get to it at some point after this thread goes up.. If any of them are particularly questionable feel free to comment on that power specifically and I'll get the scan for it, but for now the tiering and scaling stuff is more important for this thread anyway.) |
| Other Common or Standard Abilities |
|---|
| Now, as expanded upon in yet another accepted blog going over the cosmology, the "soul" in Anima is synonymous for ones own concept within the Sea of Souls. I'd go over what all of this means, but I'd be repeating myself from what's already in the blog linked above, which you can read if you feel so inclined. All you need to understand is that this implies that Soul Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) within the verse are practically synonymous, since every instance of soul manipulation is also affecting a Type 2 concept. The proposition here is that characters who have soul manipulation also have the appropriate abilities listed as conceptual manipulation, and well, literally everyone in the verse with a soul should have a rather unconventional resistance to soul manipulation via their soul simultaneously being their time transcending concept (which should require just a little bit more than the standard level of soul manipulation to affect). Another thing I go over in the blog is the nature of magic in Anima. Again, this is all in the blog, but to paraphrase, magic users manipulate the very essence (concept) of reality itself to impose their desired effects onto the world. This means that every instance of Magic in verse is simultaneously a case of Reality Warping and Conceptual Manipulation. Magic is also influences "the real and unreal" and "may be everything and nothing at all", so Non-Physical Interaction, something which is also repeatedly backed up numerous times in both the tabletop and video game. |
The Over Reliance of Game Mechanics for Stats and Scaling
Is probably the biggest issue with the current profiles, and not immediately the easiest one to answer. As far as I'm aware, the majority if not all profiles currently use their in-game "Attack Ability" statistic in relation to other characters with actual proper feats in order to scale to or around them. The practice should already sound faulty enough on its own, but is actually worse in context, since Attack Ability itself in game equally relies on attributes like speed and accuracy, and is even boosted by abilities like Time Manipulation and Precognition, which obviously have nothing to do with AP. Additionally, in game stats and levels, if taken as any measure of power scaling, actually contradict the legitimate feats characters perform in-game as well as the lore. For instance, Red Lady (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) is encountered by both The Nameless and Ergo Mundus throughout GoM, and while she's explicitly stated to be unable to defeat any of the Messengers on her own, she'as repeatedly shown to be able to keep up with both John and Ergo in combat if only temporarily. She held her own against the Bearer long enough to stall for prolonged periods of time, and can create magical barriers that even Ergo can't break through with brute force. She was even able to mortally wound The Nameless near the end of Gate of Memories... She's currently High 7-C to Ergo and Nameless's High 6-B because her in game stats are close to Chtho. And this is only one of many numerous examples of awful scaling via game mechanics. If this was the only topic of the thread, I'd list more, but I think you likely get the point.
Like I said, this issue isn't immediately easily solved for characters without actual legitimate scaling for those with feats, but I do have three possible solutions to propose.
1. (which is my personal preferred option). Just don't scale via stats... period. I know this might seem a little strict, but it's clear that the in game stats are inconsistent with the actual feats, or at the very least can't reliably be used for scaling. In this case, we only scale feats to those with statements or valid implications of being scaleable to each other. And those who don't scale to anyone? Well, use their own feats when applicable, even if they're unimpressive. In lack of feats, use the safest assumptions. It's what real world references are there for.
2. (And I'm only proposing this because I don't see the harm in it in the off-chance no contradictions actually arise). For characters without any other legitimate method of scaling, and only those characters, so long as their in-game statistics don't contradict actual legitimate feats or lore, this kind of scaling might be okay? I don't exactly encourage the idea, but I don't see the harm in doing so as a last possible scenario for those with absolutely no other option. Again, I personally don't really consider it to be the best or most accurate method, but in certain select cases, it could honestly be the best one we've got I suppose.
3. The stats can be used as a baseline for those without feats or scaling by using the environmental damage indicated by fights at their level as a guideline. For instance, 150+ and 200+ seem to be different degrees of Wall Level, 300+ creates shockwaves that can shatter buildings, and 400+ "shakes creation" and sparks flying from blows produce "enormous craters". If we use this as a baseline rather than the feats a specific character, it doesn't cause any contradiction.
I should definitely clarify that while I prefer option 1 or 3, in the end I'm fully neutral about which one of these or even a potential third option gets decided on. The biggest issue here for me is that this type of scaling seems to be taking priority over and even contradicting the more legitimate methods available to us.
Now then, the last thing I want to bring up is actually relatively simple.
Anima has Tier 2 feats
How far into tier 2? Well there's a number of feats, which genuinely range from Low 2-C to potentially High 2-A and literally everything in between. I honestly wish I was joking. Below I'll list the ones I can recall from lowest to highest, but some will obviously be more straight-forward than others.
I want to make it particularly clear that I don't personally believe in every single one of these being correct, at least without further context, but for argument's sake, I've included even the questionable ones just so that all of the relevant information regarding tier 2 stuff is there. Assume that I'm proposing all of this be accepted, and shoot down the ones you think of as nonsensical.
Low 2-C
Tawil creates isolated timelines when invoked. "Different timeline" and "infinite universe" are both specifically used to describe the place the target is BFR'd to so this is pretty blatant. Tawil is the Aeon embodying the concept of time and space, and is actually one of the strongest beings in verse who isn't a Shajad/Beryl or above. Definitely not an outlier, though these types of feats are pretty consistent so it probably wouldn't be one regardless. The Dragon (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) and stronger characters like the Shajad/Beryls would scale to this.
Prison of Light and Prison of Darkness. These spells "Enclose the target in a separate universe with no interaction to our own." Said universes can actually be destroyed in-game by producing some pretty absurd amounts of damage. This one is admittedly more questionable than Tawil's feat above, but it being a universe is consistent with the number of universe level feats in-verse and makes just enough sense in context to not be an outlier. Prison of Light and Darkness are both examples of "Divine Magic" which is flat out stated to be too powerful for mortals to use. The only characters that would have access to spells like these are ones who already scale to similar feats or better. As the originator of magical spells in general, Etheldrea should be capable of producing both of these, and through the wonderful web of powerscaling that is Gate of Memories, just about every Messenger scales, as does everyone comparable to them. Of course, this isn't the only feat this applies to so let's carry on.
2-C
If Baal were to fully manifest itself into the world, it would "merge with existence", engulfing everything and turning reality into a "true hell". This never actually happened, but Etheldrea, The Nameless, and some other big names were involved in the combined effort to stop it, battling against Baal's incomplete form, and managing to seal its true form before it was too late. Etheldrea and Elienai were among those responsible for said sealing, so the potency of such abilities for them should scale. Outside of that, obviously the Beryls and such are above this.
Rah nearly destroys "all of creation", forcing C'iel and Gaira themselves to intervene before it's too late. "All of creation" in this context is implicitly a big deal considering that the absolute god tiers themselves needed to step in in order to stop it. Even though the destruction of existence as a whole was stopped, both the physical and spiritual/conceptual world were threatened and even irreparably affected by this event. The threat Ergo Mundus posed is later directly compared to this event, and in the bad ending for Gate of Memories, it's implied that he goes on to end all of existence himself. As before, thanks to Gate of Memories, just about every Messenger scales for either being directly stated to be comparable or above him like Bringreus, actually fighting him and not getting stomped, like Jonathan Kappel and Nascal Mehirim, or both, like Malekith, Prince of Crows.
Powers in the Shadow possess technology and magic superior to what Rah used to threaten reality, and if the individual factions comprising these Powers fought among each other, all of existence would be irreparably torn apart with nothing left behind. Following the activation of Rah's machine, the Powers split the reality into three individual planes of existence. Ergo Mundus's power was respected by The Imperium to the point that they tried to recruit him. Yada yada scales to every other Messenger blah blah.
2-B
2-A(?)
Rah's above feat of threatening "all of creation" was done by channeling the souls of all of the victims of the ongoing war, (over 100 million to be exact), whereas the Nexus itself literally contains an infinite amount of souls. Anyone with the ability to manipulate the Nexus as a whole should have the ability to reproduce such a feat on an infinite scale.
On a similar note, Baal was able to absorb and assimilate the souls of an infinite number of demons when it was "born.
Again, I'm personally iffy on these. The logic checks out in my opinion, but I'm not sure about our standards for these kinds of feats, and it honestly might be worth its own thread to determine whether or not infinite amounts of 2-C or 2-B power qualifies for 2-A. In any case, until the standards themselves are made clear, I'd only consider 2-A for a "possibly" rating at best.
High 2-A/Low 1-C
This one should be relatively simple. The Nexus of Souls is the birthplace of all concepts, which as shown above, includes that of Time and Space, and transcending such concepts should make one 5-D. Shajad, Beryls, C'iel and Gaira all exist beyond the Soul Flux in its entirety, outside of its influence. They chose to bind themselves to specific concepts within the structure of reality because prior to doing so they existed only beyond it. Their power is also compared to nigh-omnipotence within reality.
All of the relevant information for this one can be found in the blog I linked to it, so go ahead and judge for yourself.
There is more stuff to go over in terms of scaling but it can likely wait until specific tiers are decided upon.
Again, most if not all of the relevant information for this is in already made blogs, so if you feel like something is missing, check those first. With that being said, go ahead and evaluate.
