Anima: Beyond Revisions (Major Verse-wide Changes)

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I also agree with the proposed scaling Nexus Guardians for 1-A tho

 

[Antoniofer]

In principle, Imperium could defeat the 14, although impossible to perform, as they are beyond death... or erasure.

Although no longer likes how the thing goes, here a few example of scaling:

• Lord of the Death its capable to fight a group of inquisitors, although one of was forced to retire from battle.

• Scyla and Caribdis are just a little weaker than Filis. Same apply to Leviathan, and it is stronger than the 'gods" of Delorean.

• Alastor can hold a fight against Clair and Samiel, the last one can also fight a major Sierpe by his own (as you could have noticed in the picture).

• Yuri, although not that close, was capable to damage Alastor in one fight.

• The three stronger Godkillers are Kisidan, Felix Sanfelix and an unknown one. Both Linx Kaste Hex and Kisidan destroyed the Yehudah Empire.

• The Alius generally collaborate with the Church as Inquisitors, there's even one called Sepher (guardian of Hazael). Naturally, they are below stronger light elementals such Elhaym.

• Tiamat is candidate for agent of Imperium.

• Noth is currently the major menance for Imperium, while the Machine the major earthly menance.

 

[Edwellken]

What do you mean by in principle?

Most of the names above Alius are unfamiliar to me, but I trust your knowledge there.

I wouldn't rank every Alius as comparable to the stronger Inquisitors, but I could see "Varies, at least 9-B, up to 2-C" for them. Same with stronger beings like Elhaym and Seraphim, but a bit more lenient considering how powerful they're considered to be. Maybe "At least 7-B, likely 2-C", but I could see the 7-B part being dropped honestly.

Which Tiamat? The Messenger or the Knight of the Seventh Heaven?

I agree with Noth, but their threat seemed to be more of an "over time they might destroy all of existence" thing. 2-C over time works, but their main thing seems to be extremely potent durability negation. I actually forgot to bring that up (though since they can take hits from people like Ergo, their dura would scale to 2-C anyway, so scaling to AP isn't all that farfetched.) Maybe "Unknown, Likely 2-C" for the Noth.

 

[Antoniofer]

AS comment about that in one of the compilations, basically Imperium can't win against the Shajad and Beryl basically cuz they are immotals.

Refering to Tiamat of the Seventh Heaven (naturally Imperium wouldn't think in something like recruiting a demon), its between the most strongest humans, and not humans like Kisidan or Gaul that have their immortality or nanomachines, but rather the apex of human.

AS also compared the Noth with the machine, compering them with the Daleks and... other species.

 

[Edwellken]

A... can you find the scan for that and maybe we can get it translated?

Ok.

Ok, things are just starting to seem more and more consistent.

 

[Antoniofer]

Here its is, a raw translation would be: Would the Shajad and Beryls enough powerful in order to defeat Imperium? Re: Yes, But more like, they can't be damaged or destroyed. Imperium have the capability to destroy gods, but the Shajad and Beryls do not fall under that category. Even if they create pocket spaces or use the Ormus in order to decreate them, they aren't affected. Simply, there's no fight, as one side, even by boredom, (I think it refer to that, I don't get quite good few Spain words) isn't going to lose.

Hm, at the end it wasn't for immortality (although I recall its also mentioned in somewhere), but rather they are immune. Take also into account that the 14 aren't able to stop or affect the Ormus, no matter what.

Also, the other people that have the attention of Imperium are Adam W. Lancerot (although due to his relationship with supernatural beings, they failed to contact him), the Colonel (mostly due to his tactical prowness and lack of ethic), Michael Xenathos (not sure why) and an unknown one.

Furthermore, another scaling involving Kisidan so you got more references: was at the level of Demeter Stratos and Lemunia, teorically above Millenium (its known to be the weaker, but she is Unknown at the end), can win with elevated difficulty against Marcus Eruth Sith, and even more difficult to fight against Yukari Nozuel. Has no chance against Remiel, Khaiel and Karla.

 

[Edwellken]

You said something about Nerelas scaling to Kisidan before?

is there anything for XII, Kali, Faust Orbatos or anyone else we haven't covered that has a profile?

 

[Antoniofer]

Yes, but most be one of these info lost in the old forum or a Bard's comment from the. Either way, he is at least comparable to Kagami, whose power its comparable to the Godkillers. He also killed Dereck's father, but won by using his wife and son as meat shield.

Kali is just a little weaker than Celia, but overall comparable (although right, Celia its weakened). XII its between the most powerful Crows (competing with XX) along with XXI and XVI. The last one its between the strongest Mentalist on gaia, close to Pazusu. No much info about Faust.

 

[Antoniofer]

Between others, Zhoul has little to no chance against Filis and its the 2nd weakest of the New Brotherhood; he was also killed by Drake's group, a group formed by Drake (duh), the Saint Evangeline, Kronen Roxxon and two others whose name do not remember (although, Zhoul was just beted by Lazarus no much time ago).

Tiamat has no chance against Kisidan (few have). At this point you would known how strong is Kisidan compared with others, Considering that would have a hard time with Markus, he unlikely that he wins against Rah (may have his chances), has no chance against Remial so doubt it would have it against Ergo.

 

[Edwellken]

Alright, thanks.

Then I guess the new scaling stuff would look like this:

Low 1-C
The Imperium is up to this level with prep and certain tech. They wield the Ormus which can affect the 14+2, and created the Pillars of Soul weapons which could potentially harm the Shajad/Beryls. Although the Imperium is the most powerful among the three groups, it's likely that the the other Powers in the Shadows possibly scale due to the stalemate-like relationship they have. (It should be noted that while they're capable of making tech at this level, it's by no means casual or convenient for them, and the Pillars of Souls aren't fully confirmed to be at this level of power. No one other than the Powers scale.)

2-C
Scyla, Caribdis and Leviathan for being comparable to Filisnogos.

Clair and Samiel are comparable to Alastor.

Felix Sanfelix is comparable to Kisidan.

Certain Alius can be this powerful. Both Elhaym and Seraphim Potestas should be above them.

Lord of Darkness is equal to Elhaym, as are Agni (Anima: Beyond Fantasy), Arias Vayu, Chtho and Varuna.

Tiamat is powerful enough to be recruited by the Imperium, and also at least comparable to but likely stronger than Griever. Shouldn't be far behind Kisidan.

Both Noth and The Machine for their own feats and being comparable to each other.

Nerelas is comparable to Kisidan and other Godkillers.

XII is the strongest of the Crows, a group which already includes at least a few of the strongest people on Gaia.

I couldn't really find any info on Celia (Except as an example of a player character, but even then I didn't see any feats that would scale her to canon), but if she's 2-C then I guess so is Kali.

High 8-C
Forgot to mention this last time, but Valkyries should be stronger than Shadow Master since they go out of their way to avoid being discovered by them.

 

[Antoniofer]

The Ormus can't affect C'iel and Gaira, in fact, these two are the only ones capable to bypass and stop the Ormus. AS was pretty clear that the day Barnabas defeat both of them... he will find himself in bed, waking up from a dream.

Technically Tiamat is way below Kisidan, as no matter how much he tried, he can't defeat Kisidan.; although, the last one thinks that young Tiamat was much better than he at the same age.

By the way, you asked something about the Machine, in the CoB about the bestiary said that the Machine will eventually assimilate all the physical plane (overtime of course) in order to fix an "error", but wouldn't do the same with the Wake (however, as the last one its the reflect of the physical world, will eventually dissapear). The Nexus will however remain safe.

 

[Edwellken]

Lol. Yeah I'm aware of the C'iel and Gaira thing. It actually does affect them, it's just if they cared enough to bother they would bypass it. They just don't.

I haven't seen anything that puts Kisidan that far ahead, but hey 2-C either way.

I was told it said something different, but The Machine seems to scale for other reasons anyway. Feel free to post the scans and translation if you feel like it.

 

[Antoniofer]

Lightness: Its about the Machine. What they really intend? And what so much evolution?

AS: Not going to get in Anakiah's figure, that made contact with the Mothers (an story for another time) but what is certain is that the Machine have the target of assimilate all existence in order to correct what it seems to be an existential design error. Their target its absorbthe planet, follows the moon, then other planets, and finally ocupate the "space". All the space of the physical existential plane. Its unknown who is their creator.

Abigor: Do you mean that the beings from the Wake would be safe?

AS: For a time, yes, but without emotions, with no changes, with no "residual energy", even teh Wake will eventually stop existing.

Black Zerg: Would the Flow by safe?

AS: Yes, the Flow will be safe. In fact, the Mothers do not want to reach the higher plane of existence, but rather reconfigure the lower plane in order to "correct" a design error. Wouldn't say who they are, nor who created them, but they were "created" by something prior to everything, one could say they dates back to before Oblivio (refering to the Pre-Oblivion age).

There's a little more, but kinda lazy to translate right, basically Imperium, although consider them a menance, they aren't currently worried due being confident that they aren't going to wake anytime soon.

 

[Antoniofer]

Now about Tiamat: [...]Tiamat was tired of life when he was young, nothing was a challenge for until he met Kisidan, he found someone that he was unable to defeat, no matter how much he tries, even if he tried hard, in that position he finally started to find hard challenges where he would need to take effort[...]

Trivia: He uses Cancer Meister with the hair of virgin womans, and his real name is Jesus Ubi├▒a, funny thing, he had no official name until few months ago, when AS named him by one of the Bards during a CoB.

 

[Edwellken]

I'm adding the scans to the Gnosis blog so we can get this done, but while you're here, is there any known relation between The Drago in Theresia and "The Dragon" in Dafne?

And on that topic, are The Dragon and "The Heart of Fantasy" the same being? And if so is the world made from Kappel's memories Theresia?

 

[Antoniofer]

They are related, but they are different entities with different origins.

 

[Edwellken]

All of the scans have been added to the Gnosis blog.

 

[Antoniofer]

Pretty good, although take into account that certains gnosis "advantages" works due limitation of the power, spell or artifact itself. For example the Key of Yggdrasil is unable to create beings that surpass gn 30, not that beings of gnosis 35 or higher are immune to the key. Similar with Ergo, its more like he is unable to absorb the conditional properties of creatures of above gn 35.

The Noth are... special, is not that a guy with Natura +15 have NPI (having NPI would help a guy look nor touch Noth) and ignore damage reduction, but rather that is how the Noth's "weaknesses" works. Also Moth is an special place, that rule of the being of gnosis 5 and above die only apply to that place.

Also semanthics (is that term am I looking for?), is not that beings of elevated gnosis Negate the damage reductions of others, but rather, they byppass then, negation would involve their powers are being nullified that is not the case.

 

[Antoniofer]

Uh, also, Natura +5 remains to be added, you can look in the former blog made by to guide, basically its the capability to have more than one open roll and the 1% chance to resist everything (that force one to a resistence check) no matter the difficulty.

 

[Antoniofer]

By the way, I suggest to write a template for the resistences before starting to add stuff up, by the general and those granted by gnosis and natura. I rather note their levels of resistences of the characters, just to avoid the potential nlf (one can have the capability to not being affected by conveptual magic, but that do not necessary save someone from being poisoned by a common snake's bite or disease).

And one last thing about the scaling, I believe it would be definied on Ergo as there's no Rah's profile, would like to known how would it be written. Also, is important to notice that Rah was one-shotted by his machine, and not much natural beings are stronger than him, so people would actually be below whatever the level of that 2-C is.

 

[Edwellken]

Sorry for the late response, I've been pretty busy.

Template sounds like a good idea. I don't think people would assume resistance to poison or disease from resisting magic, though, but I could be misunderstanding what you meant.

A profile for Rah should be made eventually, but yeah, Ergo's is good since he has his own stuff anyway. Rah's machine seemed to dish out a bit more than just raw AP now that I think about it, but people like Ergo and the Powers have their own feats besides that anyway.

I'm gonna ask Bambu (again) to take a look at this.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, is a common misconception, just cuz people resist conceptual stuff they may believe that resisting poison is guaranteed, even if is not a meta-poison. Similar in verse, resisting absolute zero doesn't mean one is immune to cold in general (natural cold do not exceed a check of 160 iirc).

Other thing about resistences, depending of the (dermal) armor of the character, it increase their resistences; for anynpoint in AT the resistence increase a +5. It works similar against Composure, a +5 for any character's difficult level against any effect that would alter their emotions or state of mind (I got that in a blog).

 

[Overlord775]

>resisting AZ, the absolute coldness, doesn't grant cold resistance

What weeb Spanish crap is this?

 

[Antoniofer]

Its actually resisting not dying, and is more easy to avoid death that avoid damage in general. Not going to die for lower temperatures, but doesn't mean one goes completely unharmed, is like a "rule", you see some effects like "160 MR of double damage, fail for 60 or more and you die". Naturally that do not apply for supernatural effects.

 

[Overlord775]

That's more surviving AZ rather than resisting it tho

 

[Antoniofer]

The psionic power only induce death by AZ, not damage by itself, to be more realistic its would be needed to pass a check of 160 PhR in order to be completely unharmed by any physical temperature inducing power (attacking in HEAt and COLd still works).

For reference, a 140 difficulty planetary blizzard would kill the average human within seconds, while the peak humans would die in less than 2 min (although it may change if they have luck). If they use special clothing they may survive more time (even with the best clothing they only have a 17% to survive indefinitively, otherwise they'll die).

 

[Antoniofer]

Mm, that that I look a little even 140 PhR is too much for a common blizzard, even one of 100 is pretty lethal for humans and animals, but with a high rate of survival.

By the way, I misunderstood a little about the Noth vs Machine comment, I may no understand the comparation between the Cybermen and the Daleks, but AS states that they are in different leagues. Either way, one squad of Jūrgand may be enough to clear Dravenor's nightmare, and in case a Patriarchy take care, it would be needed two (AS wasn't sure if one was enough).

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Ok so I just noticed that the soul stuff got downgraded to type 3, and the reasoning doesn't make sense from what I can tell.

The initial argument basically amounts to "soul damage not affecting every soul across all of existence = no type 2", which is an AoE fallacy and assumes that soul damage is targeting the concept of soul rather than the soul of an individual, which isn't what is happening the vast majority of the time.

lets see what the definition of type 2 concepts are:

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

>Transcendent of reality

Check

>Everything "participates" in these concepts

Check as above

>Alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown

This is the only one that's really iffy at all, since we don't really have instances of people attacking the concept of "soul" as far as I am aware, although soul destruction is generally considered the be-all-end-all of deaths, which puts it above some ridiculous things.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, the zeon users only manipulate the souls of the nexus to perform a variable range of effects, but the souls themself suffer no damage or negative alteration, that only happens with the magic path of Necromancy, that cause an irreversible damage to the Nexus (nothing serious at the time).

As a note, a wizard that uses the spell Uncreation can uncreate anything, from any emotions to something as complex as magic (although it can't uncreate what was uncreated).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Hl3 What about it doesn't make sense? Perhaps if I put it side-by-side by Type 3 you'd better understand.

Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a byproduct of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.
	~ Conceptual Manipualtion Type 3​

So a Type 3 can still govern all of reality, which is this case. These concepts still shape everything, the main difference is that changing the concept doesn't inherently change all things tied to the concept. Type 2 has a direct contradiction with how the above concepts work, Type 3 has no such contradiction, thus Type 3 is the more realistic choice.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Again, that's not the case. With Uncreation you can just straight up delete almost any concept and all of reality will change to accomodate that change. Past, presence, future and all planes of existence alter itself thanks to Uncreation. And then you have Ergo voring part of Anne's soul, which deleted her name to the point of it never having existed in the first place.

There's also the fact that Type 3 directly contradicts souls too, seeing as a type 3 concept is bound to it's object as much as the object is tied to it's concept. Which is not the case at all. If you destroy all instances of a book, it's not gonna do shit to the concept of book. That concept will still exist, which is just straight up not possible with type 3.

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe Bambu refered to magic in general, not to these kind of specific spells.

By the way, @Mr.Bambu, any comment or doubt about the current scaling? I see at least you don't have issues with the Natura+ nor resistences stuff.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Again, you're assuming that soul damage is targeting the concept of soul, which is not what is happening in most cases.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Again, you're assuming that soul damage is targeting the concept of soul, which is not what is happening in most cases.

It just straight up isn't. Soul damage is damaging the concept of whoever got hit, so, say, of i punched your soul, your concept would go to the gulag, but not the concept of souls since i didn't hit that.

 

[Antoniofer]

Animic or Existential Damage severe the very essence of their target (the difference is that the first one only affect living beings), so no matter how healthy is the body, the target is as damaged as its body would; so they regen at a slow rate (in case of Potestas damage, they simply don't regen) no matter the regen of the target, and can only heal by supernatural means. Note, anyone killed by either kind of damage can still be remembered and do not affect no one indirectly, just to clear the doubts.

 

[Antoniofer]

Meanwhile Bambu is busy, trying to making the template of those with elevated natura:

Natura +5
Supernatural Luck (Characters can obtain an unlimited amount of open rolls. Have by defaul a chance of 1% to resist any [listed] alteration regardless of potency/difficulty)

Natura +10
Supernatural Luck, Self-Probability Manipulation and Self-Fate Manipulation (Actions of the character tends to trigger major events and strange coincidence, significant for reality. Characters can "force their destiny" in order to gain certain advantages and avoid mistakes), Self-Status Negation (By forcing their destiny they could remove any negative induced status on themself).

Natura +15
Supernatural Luck (The open roll ratio increases), Fate Manipulation (Characters shape destiny itself, affecting the world and the lives of thousand in various degrees), Temporal Protection (Characters are aware of any temporal change)

Natura +20
Fate Manipulation (Characters with this level of natura do not live within history, history revolves around them, shaping the destiny of the world), Luck Bestowal (Any natural being with Natura +0 are considered to have Natura +5 as long they do not directly contest the character), Conceptual/Chaos Anchoring (Characters are aware of any alteration of the oder, and isn't affected by the alterations caused destruction of one of the facet of reality or the uncreation of an entity), Limited Fate and Probability Immunity (Character isn't affected by powers that alter its destiny or luck unless it comes from a being of elevated gnosis [at the time, Baal is the only exception, being capable to alter the destiny of someone no matter its Natura])

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, all of that looks good. I've been sorta off of the wiki as of late and only reading through threads that might explode if I weren't around (so basically none). I've leafed through about half of the Gnosis stuff so far and it's all fairly self explanatory and good.

I'm still of the belief that basic magic should just be Type 3 Concept Manip, for the record.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ok, then I guess you're fine with the gnosis and scaling stuff (honestly, we're end scaling anyone to anyone AP wise, as even if someone is stronger than another, i.e. Rah and Pride, it still can do damage). Is important to notice that few gnosis "advantages" are relative, either the weakness of someone of their advantage.

I believe that either being type 2 or 3 it do not change much, take into account that someone just cuz it cast an spell do not means is soul haxing the target (or anyone else) unless the spell itself does that; even using necromancy it would take millenia to cause any damage to the nexus.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Yeah, all of that looks good. I've been sorta off of the wiki as of late and only reading through threads that might explode if I weren't around (so basically none). I've leafed through about half of the Gnosis stuff so far and it's all fairly self explanatory and good.

I'm still of the belief that basic magic should just be Type 3 Concept Manip, for the record.

I agree yeah, basic magic is type 3.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

What Crimson said.

It's actually hilariously blatant too. Like the description for Vodoun literally says that magic can influence concepts through their physical manifestations.

No excessive wording or anything, it literally just says it lol.