Anima: Beyond Revisions (Major Verse-wide Changes)

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, what Vodoun does is use a something as a link between the spell and the essence of the affected, either element, being or concept; basically avoid the use of spellcasting on someone, and affect it directly as long the target is within range.

 

[Antoniofer]

By the way, going by the definition of Vodoun, any effect that target one essence/soul is resisted by MR regardless of what it does, as a note for resistences. In short, PhR = body (gotta also involve disease and poison, they all depends of CON... and the last two are going to disappear for second edition anyway), PsR = mind, and MR = essence or comes from magic (so, in few cases, if magic also affect the body, the one affected can use either PhR or MR, whatever is higher).

Presence check are more confusing tho, considering that Longuinus use that check, I would say is that any resistence at existential level (gotta analyse more). Abilities that directly interact with the nexus can't be resisted (can be ignored by having elevated gnosis).

 

[Edwellken]

I think everyone agrees magic itself is type 3. It's the concepts themselves that are type 2. Magic itself doesn't inherently manipulate souls on the same scale is my understanding.

@Bambu Is all the Gnosis stuff accepted then?

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe it would take another few hours for him to comment; meanwhile, I posted the template for Natura abilities above, so you can take a look.

Unrelated, but type 3 Conceptual Manipulation sounds more like Aether/Ethereal Manipulation rather than conceptual itself (is also more fitting with our description too).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Here's my general take on Gnosis. Sorry it took so long, I've been at work/playing Nioh and frankly ignoring the wiki. The first thing I'm gonna say is gonna be weird, so let's just be out with it. I think all of this classifies as Soul Manip and Concept Manip Type 3. All of the scans I've looked at are for Gnosis (which are these two things). So, let's say someone uses Precognition not based on Soul Manip. Let's say, instead, that Spiderman jumps into action. Would they reasonably resist Spider-Man? Is there anything about these Gnosis resistances that are actually towards non-Gnosis based powers?

The other resistance stats are fine from my knowledge on them so far, but this is my primary concern regarding the Gnosis section.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Pretty sure that basically all of them are from resisting things that aren't given by other Gnosis levels, and the precog comparision makes 0 sense because none of the precognition resistance justifications mention anything like that

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wdym "Pretty sure that basically all of them are from resisting things that aren't given by other Gnosis levels"? I'm talking about all resistances in the Gnosis blog ostensibly coming from resisting an ability based on their Gnosis. Which means regardless of what the application is, that's Soul Manip/Concept Manip. The fact that precog sections don't mention it should be obvious (Spider-Man probably won't be entering the Anima universe any time soon) so I guess... re-read what I said? The point is that it doesn't translate correctly.

Gnosis resistance scans have given me the impression it's all Soul Manip used to do a fuckton of things, but any resistance gained by that should just be Resistance to Soul Manipulation.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I feel like i'm not understanding what you're saying, or something is being lost in the middle but meh.

Why exactly would that just be resistance to soul manip? The only thing that even like, remotely references souls is Absolute Perception and that comes across more as prediction than anything else. It being magic doesn't really change that either, unless you want to say that EE via causality manip isn't EE because thats what this logic implies.

Things like the Shinigami Eyes, Closed World, Aura of Distortion, and way, way more literally never mention souls, so i don't get where this argument comes from.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

A lot of powers they resist aren't based on soul maniplation tho. Look at Genbu's precog eye for example. It literally comes from is eye.

What happens with Gnosis resistances is that the character's spiritual influence and power is so strong that he can just resist the powers of lesser beings, it has nothing to do with soul manipulation, which the game always makes perfectly clear when it is. Hell, high Gnosis let's you resist things like time manipulation or existing inside the primal void.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It does have stuff to do with soul manip though. Look at those that are just "if yet gnosis is higher then you're fine". Someone's gnosis wasn't as good as someone else's gnosis, ergo the first guy resists, regardless of the effect of said gnosis ability.

 

[Antoniofer]

Spiderman sense is not gnosis based, is the verse is called Forsee Surprise, is an ability that prevent someone to be took by surprise (up to certain level), although Peter's ability is more of a natural power than a maneuvere. Is not something that can't be "resisted" as it so not affect him directly, neither is a precognition, is just warn Peter that something happen will happen.

EDIT: Actually, is Sense of Danger, is basically Spiderman's power, it prevent any kind of surprise that is not caused by Initiative difference.

 

[Edwellken]

I think what Bambu is saying is that Gnosis uses soul/concept manip to resist things, so if you have stronger soul/concept manip yourself, you would be able to get around it.

I wouldn't have classified it that way but I can see where the idea is coming from.

From my understanding that's what the interpretation he's proposing is. (So if I'm wrong please correct me.)

My biggest concerns are really A: even if we classify it by this method, specific abilities resisted by Gnosis should still be listed. Otherwise whenever it's brought up people are going to misunderstanding the capabilities and likely either NLF it to high hell or disregard it completely for the lack of defined cases of what can be resisted.

B: This interpretation seems to come kind of out of left field to me. This isn't to say it doesn't make sense, just that it isn't clear to me that this is what they're going for. Any number of other interpretations could seem just as valid in my eyes so long as they aren't contracted by the verse.

C: The concept manipulation is definitely Type 2 (and I want to stress clearly that I'm not talking about magic here, which is type 3). When a person's soul is destroyed, they're irreparably gone. They no longer exist, never have existed, never will and all that. It's the same thing with what Crimson said before. Uncreation does this same thing on a potentially larger scale. It can be used to target any "aspect of existence" including a city or an entire race, and unmake it so as if it never existed. Everything tied to the concept is changed here. Reality itself is rewritten around said concept never having existed. The same thing is shown with Ergo eating a part of Anne's soul, causing reality to rewrite itself as if her name had never existed. Magic inherently doesn't do these things, no, no one is debating that, but souls themselves influence the world in the same way as defined by Type 2 Concept Manipulation.

I also want to mention that yes, precog and senses that work exactly like Spider-man's are covered here, and unless my grogginess (just woke up) is causing my memory to fail me, none of them are based on having higher Gnosis than someone else to use.

In any case, I'm not sure how frequently I'll be able to respond on this thread today, but we'll see.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, Gnosis measure the "gravity" of a being within the Nexus, so one can interprete it that way, but it do not really makes someone more resistent to soul manipulation.

Is like being closer to a higher plane of existence, and at even being in a higher plane of existence when considered divine, the higher the gnosis it have, the more independent from the Nexus it is, so attemps to affect the individual by affecting the Nexus fail. The Nexus is "everything" (how one could notice, few beings already escape their rules) it was and going to be, so reasing the future, or attempting to control their future wouldn't work, they possesses certain influence over the Nexus that allows them to do Reality Warping, as having "higher hierarchy" than others they straight up ignore their immunities (not resistences), etc. But they are just independent, so attacking them with magic, ki and psionics is still factible (unless the being is, let say, invulnerable like Rudra, or omnipresent as Tawil).

As I said, some gnostic advantages aren't general, but "limitations" that few creatures/devices have, such that bell that is unable to affect beings of gnosis 35 or higher, one need to take the general rules. I avoided the nlf o tye disregard of resistences by asign gnosis/natura levels to characters that fight the verse, is not really difficult and it would be unfair otherwise, but someone have to be perceptive about that, I put few examples in the gnosis blog.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not sure how NLF'd that would be. You have resistance to soul manip and concept manip type 2, and powers that come from those are resisted. That's the context. If you'd like to list the sub powers of these that are resisted then that also works I guess, but a note should be made regarding the fact that those powers are resisted when originating from aforementioned soul/concept.

For the record, spoke to Ed on Discord and sorted out the confusion- I'm only talking specifically about Gnosis based powers that can be resisted with higher Gnosis.

spider man was literally just a metaphor homies, chill on that one

 

[Edwellken]

Right. So essentially, certain powers that rely on having a higher level of Gnosis than your opponent (like Auspice) stem from soul/concept manipulation via Gnosis, which is why naturally having higher Gnosis allows those effects to be resisted or reversed, right? In this way, you could see Gnosis as a sort of passive soul/concept manipulation. I can get behind that. It just means that I have to go through the blog again and separate all the applicable cases which should be lots of fun.

 

[Antoniofer]

The advantages comes from manipulating reality in some way or another, yeah, can't perform stuff that they haven't "buy" as powers naturally. Meanwhile Natura+ comes from surpassing/transcending ones ratial existential limitations, doesn't give them powers over reality in the same degree, but they obtain some "anchoring" and freedom.

That a lame Bambu, we got a sheet of Peter somewhere in the forum, is Acrobatic Warrior lv 6-7 +1 btw.

 

[Edwellken]

"Soul Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Gnosis represents the existential value with which one is able to influence the Soul Flux. The higher one's Gnosis, the greater their influence over it, as well as their means to ignore it entirely.)"

How's this?

 

[Antoniofer]

I feel like putting too much Soul and Concept Manipulation could get confusing and misleading, one can't control concepts at great scale until it hit gn 45, before that is more of Reality Warping (chaging the properties of objects, altering the "environmental aura", forcing events to go your way).

One can but it so people can known the cause of the power tho.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

yeah i really don't understand that logic

most of the abilities literally never mention souls nor concepts, just that Gnosis lets you resist them

 

[Antoniofer]

Remember that just cuz one have higher gnosis than other doesn't mean one is immune or have a bonus to effects that alter ones soul, other effects from the Shinigami, Valkyries and spells can still affect those of higher gnosis, even those that hit gn 35 (although, at gn 40 is possible that the being have certain immunity/immortality that prevent to be straight out killed by those powers, like the Orb and Dementia).

 

[Edwellken]

Reality warping via conceptual manipulation makes sense too, and should probably also be mentioned. I do want to stress that the way I defined it above already somewhat addresses/implies that at lower levels the effects are relatively negligible. No one is saying that any random being with Gnosis 5 will be rearranging concepts, just that their passive influence over the structure of existence is greater than one with 0. It's worth mentioning because this also helps these characters mitigate the effects from others with higher Gnosis even if they can't actively use their own to influence the Soul Flux in more major ways.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, at Gn 5 no one obtains any notable advantage over those of inferior Gn (except bypass damage resistences/immunities), general advantages start at Gn 25, wherever at Gn 35 start the divine stuff.

Let say, at combat level, a Gn 10 being do not have any notable advantage over one of Gn 5, except by that if the last one have fire resistence, fire produced (so doesn't counts if a flamethrower is used) by the other guy then the resistence is bypassed (of course, no one stop the other guy from using magic to make itself immune to fire). Notice this is gnosis, stuff change with natura+.

 

[Edwellken]

It never really had anything to do with a combat advantage. Gnosis defines one's existential significance within the structure of existence, and having any of it at all negates/mitigates the soul/concept/Gnosis based abilities imposed upon you as shown with things like Auspice and Bag of Souls being less effective.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ah yeah, true, even a gn 5 of difference saves an advantage of +10, although don't think there's much characters out there that use some Auspice in the same way, the closest ability we got to the description is Acausality. The Bag of Souls is more a "limitation" of the Shinigami, it also do not depends of gnosis, it depends of natura+.

 

[Edwellken]

If the "limitation" is that it doesn't work on beings because their (insert attribute here) is too high, that's the same thing as a resistance.

Anyway, Bag of Souls is explicitly Gnosis based.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is the kind of stuff that is relative (either one have a weakness, or the other have a resistence), is an unique effect so can't compare.

Also, hmm, in the spanish version says Natura based.

 

[Edwellken]

Huh. That's a oof

 

[Antoniofer]

Its also kinda strange, it have more sense being gnosis than natura, it also do not clary if refering to natura or natura+ (I believe if the last one, otherwise it would be anticlimatic seeing someonelike the average PC or even Eli being reaped by a Shinigami in one go). Guess going to ask in discord.

EDIT: Yeah, is Natura+.

 

[Edwellken]

Gnosis makes more sense tbh.

Either way, does classifying Gnosis as passive Soul/Conceptual Manipulation plus Reality Warping work for everyone? If so, we just need to wait for Bambu to come back and give the go ahead and we're just about done here.

(I'll probably have less time to contribute here than yesterday though.)

 

[WHYNAUT]

Seems fine to me.

 

[Antoniofer]

Would consider it more like Limited Resistance to Reality Warping, as they defy the rules of nature the higher the gnosis is (by equalizing for example, any supernatural being will have by default at least gn 10), is not exactly a passive alteration until elavated gnosis values.

 

[Edwellken]

It's more that it isn't as clearly noticeable until then. The effects are still present even at lower levels, they just tend not to do as much.

 

[Antoniofer]

It only reduce the effects and efficiency of the other gnostic powers such Auspice, that's why I suggest Resistance rather than a passive control over something. At the end we'll need to wait for Bambu's opinion.

By the way, remember that the Dragon from Dafne is not the same as The Dragon the aeon (related, but not the same).

 

[Edwellken]

Gnosis as a power is what grants that resistance. It's just a weaker version of the same ability. We're talking about classifying Gnosis itself as what's being proposed, not about the apparent effects of having any specific amount of Gnosis, which would include every other thing listed on the blog.

Okay.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, maybe Bambu can word it better, but personally I rather don't write anything than putting passive Soul and Concept Manipulation, last one would confuse others, and to be fair, it will be a common question in vsthreads.

 

[Edwellken]

Feeling somewhat neutral on it myself at this point.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ok then, we just need to wait for Bambu to clear any doubt he may have, and then start performing the changes. @Edw, everything good with the Natura template from above? Going to create the gnosis template or want me to do it?

Although, kinda lame, nearly all characters as 2-C, they will considered pretty difficult to find a match now, or have a good discussion.

 

[Edwellken]

I'd definitely change the wording of some of that, mostly because of grammar and spelling stuff. The "Temporal Protection" and "Conceptual/Chaos Anchoring" bits are probably just Cosmic Awareness. "Limited Fate and Probability Immunity" is just Resistance to Fate Manipulation and Probability Manipulation. Other resistances and powers granted by Natura+ are also missing.

And yeah I'll make the Gnosis one.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I tend to use terminology from spw, but I wouldn't call it Cosmic Awareness, that's being aware of events through the cosmos, they are only aware like "what just happened? pretty sure this just happened" (Although, beings of gn 40 or higher are aware in what place the time is looping, that is Cosmic [Temporal] Awareness).

Also put it like limited immunity rather than resistence, cuz one is either not affected or can normally resist its effects. Although taking a look, the only instances of controlling the fate of someone comes from beings related to the Al-Enneth pantheon (although wit all the statements from the fate stuff, is pretty clear they resist a little). Neither considered powers that are kinda specific, such involving the Noth, Valkyries or Dafne; they may have limited immunity/resistence to Subjective Reality, but the only SR comes from Kappel, cuz the spell from the path of Illusion doens't have natura+ limitation.

 

[Edwellken]

Being capable of sensing permanent modifications in the structure of existence, such as concepts being erased from the Soul Flux, probably counts as Cosmic Awareness I'd say.

Which Illusion spell are you referring to?

I was actually going to propose a new ability (Divinity) for us to classify things like Gnosis as rather than its specific effects. I have class soon so I won't go into too much detail, but it would consist of powers that work based on one's position in a hierarchical structure. (Benefits would vary from verse to verse obviously.) I DM'd Bambu about it in more detail and with specific examples earlier, but I have class so I can't speak much on it now.