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Anima: Beyond Revisions (Major Verse-wide Changes)

By the way, going by the description in the core, anyone capable to damage energy also ignores durability as they attack the very essence of its target (limited by Presence); something that its represented mechanically by ignoring Damage Barrier (that its the same as durability/invulnerability).
 
Look for the part where its explained structural damage (page 236 in the spanish core, not sure if its the same in the english one). Guess that's why at the end battle always depends of combat abilities. Although, a difference with atacks based in ENErgy, those attacks aren't intangible, so armor can still absorb additional damage; ENE attacks always ignore armor (unless the armor have AT in ENE), and can't be stopped unless the opponent can damage energy (otherwise, it defends with parry ability equal to 0).
 
Current proposal for scaling:

God tiers (Low 1-C)
C'iel, Gaira, Beryls and Shajads (For obvious reasons, although none of these have a profile yet.)

"Possibly" rating for Pillars of Souls weapons for hypothetically being able to harm Beryls/Shajad, though this hasn't been put to the test.

Top Tiers (2-C)
The Powers in the Shadow, Rah, and Baal for their own feats.

Nemesis, Eljared, and Lazarus for being confirmed by WoG to be the most powerful beings in Gaia. Amaterasu for also being a potential candidate, and Bringreus for the same reason as Amaterasu, as well as Being one of the top 5 Messengers alongside Baal, Ergo Mundus, Yami no Tsubasa, and The First Chaos.

Varja for being literally Amaterasu but twice as strong.

The Drago for Erebus (Shajad) being convinced that no being weaker than a Shajad or Beryl could kill it. Tawil for being comparable to The Dragon, Rudraskha for being weaker than both, but still likely comparable, as well as being stated to be powerful enough to be "King of the Aeons" and compared to "a deity".

Omega (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) for being seen as a major threat by The Powers in the Shadow to the point that they needed to seal him away because fighting him would have revealed their presence to the world. It's also stated that not even an Aeon would have the power to confront him, which includes the likes of Tawil and The Dragon. (Fun fact, the guy also has a Pillar of Souls).

Likely Filisnogos for being mentioned in the same statement above regarding Omega and the Aeons, implying that it's comparable to them in power.

Etheldrea and The Nameless for helping to defeat Baal in the past, and being comparable to each other and Ergo. Elienai for also helping against Baal and being comparable to Ergo (but no profile).

Ergo Mundus for being compared to Rah, one of the "Top 5" Messengers, and having power valued by The Imperium.

Nascal Mehirim for fighting Ergo, Jonathan Kappel for fighting Ergo and being considered one of the biggest threats on Gaia by The Order of Nathaniel.

Malekith, Prince of Crows for being stated to be comparable to Ergo, and later proving this during their fight in Gate of Memories.

Tsukiyomi (no profile) for being weaker, but comparable to Malekith. All of the Kotoamatsukami for being stronger than Tsukiyomi, and helping to seal part of Varja's power before he became Amaterasu. Yagarema for being comparable to the Kotoamatsukami.

Likely Kujaku Hime for being the best fighter of the Asakura clan. Said clan being responsible for guarding the Magatamas which hold the other half of Varja's power, it's likely that they can stand up against the stronger humans in the verse.

Kisidan (no profile) for being comparable to Malekith, and likely the strongest human on Gaia. Possibly Elisabetta Barbados for Kisidan stating that she could be his equal with a bit more training. Griever for being weaker but comparable to Kisidan, and likely stronger than Elisabetta. Yuri Olso for being comparable to Griever.

Druaga for fighting Ergo and being comparable to Elijah Giovanni (Elienai's fiancee who also helped against Baal, being the one who specifically killed its avatar).

Ra-Me-Tek for fighting The Nameless.

"Unknown" (Yes that's her "name") for being comparable to Nameless and later embodying The Seed of Baal.

Romeo Exxet for being weaker but comparable to Ergo Mundus.

Red Lady (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) for being weaker than Ergo and Nameless, but somewhat able to keep up with them. Also provided support to Romeo during his fight against Ergo, and delivered a fatal blow to The Nameless in a surprise attack.

The Colonel. Should be at least comparable to Yuri Olso, and it's stated that "no man or immortal can touch him", implying that he's one of the stronger characters in the verse. Alastor should be comparable to The Colonel.

Matthew Gaul is "one of the most fearsome people in Gaia", and superior to both The Colonel and Yuri Olso.

Marchosias Lostaroth, as a High Inquisitor, should be at least superior to the likes of Lady, and probably at least somewhat comparable to Romeo Exxet.

Ophiel casually slaughters High Inquisitors, putting him above Marchosias

All the other Messengers for being considered to be "the 21 greatest threats to the world" by The Church of Abel, as well as being stated to be above the likes of Lady.

Likely Zhoul Orgus, as dragons grow in power with age. As a Dragon of Gaira, Orgus has been around just as long as Svalkislavos (one of the Messengers), and was even granted additional power by the Shajad Noah.

Possibly Gurmah-Gharus, as it should likely be somewhat comparable to the other three sleepers.

Behemoth (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) is referred to as a "destructive force whose power is equivalent to that of the oldest dragons", which obviously includes Zhoul Orgus and Svalkislavos. As " supreme sovereign of all the beasts that walk the earth", should probably at least be comparable to Gurmah-Gharus.

Possibly Seraphim Potestas. Their "extraordinary power" is "difficult to measure", and powerful enough that they're believed to be weapons created by the Beryls themselves (though this fact is unsubstantiated).

(7-B)
Varuna for his own feat. Fellow High Elder Elementals Agni (Anima: Beyond Fantasy), Arias Vayu, and Chtho scale for being comparable in strength, along with Elhaym and Lord of Darkness.

Seraphim Potestas is at least this strong. As the highest grade of light elementals, they should be far superior to Elhaym.

High 8-C
Ice Maide for her own feat.

Etrien Gnosos for also being greater elementals.

Shadow Master for treating "powerful elementals" as fodder. They should be at least much stronger than Ice Maiden.

The Machine supposedly has its own universal feat but it needs to be translated.

Everyone else either doesn't have enough information for me to make a non "headcanon"-ish case for scaling, or I couldn't find anything about them to begin with.

(There are probably some people I'm forgetting, but Antonio can point them out.)
 
Yeah, ehm, no being below gnosis 45 would even reach tier 2, the difference between gn 40 and 45 its massive, from a minor god to sovereign of a pantheon.

Baal never fully manifested, so no one scale to it, Elijah only killed its premature form/avatar (a Summoner or W. summoner lv 18 back then), and helping to sealing it, although impressing, its not really AP, plus most Messenger involved just shared their blood, not much beyond that.

Not all High Inquisitors, in one part you got beings like Damien and Malakiel (lv 6+1 and lv 8 respectively) and then you got Marchosias and Alexias (both lv 10), Ophiel can kill the formers with little issues, but the rest represent more of a meanance.

Not sure to what tier 2 feat for the Machine you're refering, what they do its terraforming Dravenor, and through can't talk about single individual aside from the Mothers being immune to existential attacks, they have defeated two great beasts (one of then was killed) and armies led by a lv 10 guy that its a Chosen of the Dragon.

Further scaling, the Coronel isn't stronger than the Azure Albiters, and Yuri and no member of the Empress Hand aren't stronger than the Guards of the 7th Heaven, that includes Griever and Tiamat, the last one being between the five that Imperium is interested in recluting (along side Adam W. Lancerot).

When refering to elementals, the book generally means those that are lv 6 and appears in the core, although they could win a fight againsat an Ice Maiden (although not through direct combat).

Nerelas (not mentioned in the list) would be comparable to Kisidan, and he, along with the Filisnogos, also possesses one Pilar of Souls (Gilgamesh). Elisabetta its near as strong as Kisidan, it has the potential but not now, she could have been killed by Killrayne, and that guy was one shotted by Kisidan.
 
Just gonna put this here again since it counters a good amount of of that.

no being below gnosis 45 would even reach tier 2

Just... what? I've given legitimate reason for this not to be the case. There's nothing in any books and definitely not the games which says otherwise, and you haven't given any sort of evidence that goes against the idea.

The Baal that everyone fought in the past was stronger than the one Ergo fought in Gate of memories. Ergo already has two or three 2-C feats or statements on his own. Baal's previous avatar is above that.

I'll worry about the Machine stuff later, but I was told WoG said they could "assimilate all of existence, including the higher plane" or something along those lines.

I don't recall saying Colonel was stronger specifically, but he's flat out stated to be comparable to them. Same with Yuri. I never claimed he was stronger, just comparable. What information goes against this being the case?

Where does the Nerelas stuff come from? I couldn't find anything on him when I was looking before, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was up there.

Filisnogos has an attack called "Pillar of Souls" but I didn't see anything else pointing to it being one. (I know, confusing). But to be fair I wouldn't be surprised if I was just missing something.

Kisidan is stronger than plenty of guys, many of them already scaling to 2-C for their own reasons. The only information on Killrayne V. Kisidan only says that Kisidan defeated him. Nothing implies a one shot occured. Also, it's only stated that Killrayne wants to kill Elisabetta, not that he's a threat.
 
Yes, I known the level to not necessary measure the power of someone, however, if two beings have the same category and gnosis and one have more levels its more likely than that one its overall stronger. Yes, there's a freelancer lv 9 that have no combative abilities and its even stated to be out of shape, and Adolf Brunner its lv 9 and yet stated to not being able to win against the Colonel (you can fijnd that in the CoB compilation, or in the tactic wikia); yes, Ophiel may win against Marchosias (its lv 10 + 5 so not a surprise), but stomping him its farfertched considering that Marco its basically Doomguy and its more oriented to fighting abilities.

The statement refer to his tactical abilities, not his strength, he is respected by few Arbiters by his strength (although considering that beings like Alastor and Aizen are a bunch of pridefull jerks, "few" may only means like 3 at most), but he isn't stronger than them. In fact, Yuri landed an strike on Alastor.

Yeah, Filisnogos also have a Pilar of Souls, but its the weaker one, aside from absorbing the the existential energy one killing someone, the only thing it have its increased damage.

Hm, I may have confused Killrayne with Elias a bit, but Eli just have potential, its not remotely close to Kisidan. For instance, a Godkiller would win against an Arbiter and maybe possible go against two (refering the Deadmoon story in Tactics, as her crew was single handles by Oneiros and was just forced to retire due Aizen and Alastor appearing).

Remind me again of these tier 2 feats from Ergo? Cuz he do not scale to Unapistim nor Tawil, and I believe Bambu questions that one spell that bfr to other universe (plus neither scale, as for someone to perform said feat it needs gn 45 or higher).
 
Well when I said Ophiel slaughters High Inquisitors I wasn't talking about Marchosias specifically, but the only info I had on him in regards to scaling is Marchosias being one of them. It being a stomp or not can be up for debate, but that's not the sort of thing I was looking for.

Again, never said Colonel was stronger than Arbiters. The statement refers to both his tactical knowledge and fighting abilities, the latter of which is specifically what "some of the Arbiters respect him" for.

How do we know it's a real Pillar of Souls and not just an attack? I'm not against it being considered one, and Filisnogos having one wouldn't surprise me, but all we have is the name of an attack called "Pillar of Souls", when all of the other examples of said artifacts have their own names like Longinus and Gilgamesh.

I'm only considering Elisabetta for a "possibly" right now, and no, she obviously isn't his equal to Kisidan in the present, but given his statement as well as the fact that many of the stronger human characters can reach similar levels, her being somewhat comparable isn't all that outlandish. I'm honestly fine even dropping the "possibly" rating and putting her at "Unknown, at least Wall level" if others think this is insufficient. Also, can I see scans for the Tactics stuff if possible? What do Godkillers and Arbiters have to do with Elisabetta in terms of scaling? If Deadmoon is a character, what does she have to do with Elisabetta? Is it another one of her alternate personas? Please and thanks as usual.

Here's Ergo's stuff again.

Ergo's potential threat is directly compared to that of the War of God, the very same war where Rah unleashed the Unapistim that almost destroyed reality. Ergo also later implicitly goes on to do so himself in the bad end of Gate of Memories (but it isn't shown).

The Imperium, the same guys who have technology and magic superior to what Rah used, on top of having their own feats to back it up, saw Ergo's strength as worthy to go out of their way to recruit him. Considering that secrecy is these guy's number 1 thing, it's safe to say they aren't just handing these invitations out to anyone with a bit of muscle.

Ergo is one of the top 5 strongest Messengers alongside Baal, (who has his own 2-C feat). Each of the Messengers themselves are the 21 biggest threats to the world, putting them in high tier right off the bat.
 
Welp, about the comment about the Arbiters is that so you can have a sense of scaling.

What Filis use its indeed a Pillar of Souls, it was comfirmed by AS, Gademous' wife had it and the inventor used it when it created Filis (its around the links I sent you, in the Edge recopilation).

Again, the comment about Oneiros for a sense of scaling, and he isn't even between the strongest Godkillers [for reference, the weakest of the Godkillers is Dereck Shezzard, Tao lv 9(sealed)/lv 12 (unleashed)]. Unfortunately, I have no access to Tactics scans, I get the information from the wiki, that its directly administred by few Bards (and have links to references).

As for Ergo's feats: 1) the first one refer to the conflict itself, not to the major cataclism that happened just at the end of the War of God, Rah and its supernatural forces against Zhorne and humankinda could have been happened in the 4th Secret War (or War of the Shadow? I ignore how its called in english). 2) recluting beings doesn't means they represent a menance to existance (in the sense of destroying it), if their a strong guy, preferible human such are the cases of Tiamat and Adam W., and its neutral they try to recruite it, Ergo refuses, and then they forget about him, not the same kind of menance that Baal could have unleashed, as Imperium have 3 patriarchs prepared in the case Baal manifest completely. 3) Yes, he is top five, but that doesn't mean he is comparable to other ones, as you could see, Baal represents a great menance to existence if it manifest, even defeating its avatar its a hard work, Yami have Apocalypse sealed within him (and isn't even the most powerful creature sealed within him), and Bringeus its a pseudo-noth, in whose case it ignore existential rules (nothing yet about First Chaos).
 
Filis seems okay then.

Ergo stuff

1. Where's the proof it's referring to the conflict itself? And if it was, why refer to the War of God specifically when it isn't the only war on Gaia of that scale? The thing that makes it special in comparison to other great wars is the Upnapistim. I don't see what else they could be referring to.

2. I think this is probably where the miscommunication is. A character being 2-C doesn't mean that they're destroying universes with every swipe. That's more AoE. Being "a threat to existence" is only more of a supporting statement, not a requirement. They only need to be able to hold their own with other tier 2s, something which Ergo has shown repeatedly.

3. Him being top 5 is more supporting evidence to back everything else up. He's beaten up Baal's avatar, and beaten up Nameless who in turn beat up Baal's other avatar (Unknown/Seed). The Messengers themselves are the biggest threats The Church knows, and Ergo is one of the strongest, scaling directly to Baal or not. It's a matter of consistency.

(I have a doctor's appointment so I probably won't be able to respond for a bit.)
 
1) Rah was insane and created a machine that was going to blow up existance, Imperium "sent" three of the Demon Princess to put him down with not success, and even C'iel and Gaira took hands in the issue avoided additional damage, and yet the "little" damage casued severed the supernatural forces for years; and this its only refering to a single even that appeared out of now that finished the war. In the 4th Secret War Ergo just, not even aware of what was he causing, a rise of the supernatural beings against humanity, although it have the attention of Imperium, it did not really represented a menance like Rah was. Scaling Ergo to Rah? Sure, although I believe Ergo would win by gnosis alone, but to Unapistim? Thats a no.

2) Related to above, but there's no proof of Ergo standing against a fully manifested Baal, what he defeated in GoM was just its avatar, he and the Bearer prevented it to manifest, and the avatar do not have 2-C feats (note, if Ergo weren't sealed it would have been more ease for him to defeat Baal's avatar, not an absolute win, but it have more probabilities at his favor). Even without fully manifesting, Baal was too much to any current force in Gaia (at least those that weren't sealed/sleeping) or outside of it.

3) Unfortunately we do not have info of how strong could be Millenium fused with the seal (yes, you got it right, Millenium is also Unknown), but its certainly weaker than sealed Ergo and the Bearer, as the nameless was able to defeat her (its transformation do not really increase his powers, but rather it consider like any attack its like attacking with his arm). So Unknown fused with the Seed do not really scale to a fully manifested Baal.
 
1. The book specifically states that Ergo's war would have reached the same scale as Rah's. The fact that it didn't have the same repercussions is the exact opposite of a contradiction. Elienai just stopped him before that became the case. There's literally nothing else this statement could be trying to point out.

2. I said nothing about scaling him to full power Baal (though any of the other top 5 shouldn't be too far behind anyway). The characters he scales from are Rah/the Upnapistim via a direct statement along with The Imperium themselves, and the other Messengers.

3. Again, scaling to full power Baal has nothing to do with any of my arguments. The Nameless is already one of the stronger Messengers, and proven himself to be comparable to The Bearer and Ergo on multiple occasions.
 
It was a Secret War, so its not a openly known war like those of the War of God, reaching the same magnitude its meaning to it turning open and then all the world would be involved. There was no menance here, the 14 +2 nor Imperium were interested, so they conclusion leading to end existence wasn't the case. And I undestand the AoE thingy, its basically the reason why everyone have their status despite being unable to destroy mountain and stuff (basically, if one want to have the power to destroy cities, continents, worlds, one need to by say power), but if Ergo doesn't have the AoE to destroy the universe, then where its the menance equally to Unapistim coming from? Ergo turning into a Messiah, all supernatural creatures coming from their hidding, including Samael, and then start to conquer/kill a bunch of people, that is what the text is refering to, as that its what happened in the War of God.

Never questioned Nameless scaling to Ergo sealed, and Imperium recruits people all the time, currently with 5 people in mind (tend to choose purely humans, but also supernatural beings like the case of Ergo), so that doesn't mean they are as strong or comparable to Rah. Plus one can say that Messengers are a treat the world, but that is not absolute, Arael do not really predicted the future (as you can known by now, predicting the future do not really works in this verse) she just had access to Imperium database, and from there, selected 21 creatures that were considered interesting/potential bothersome (or something like that, gotta check CoB). Even one of the Messengers were defeated by Church, and its currently used a puppet.
 
Destroying reality? I doubt it, I think he goes more for the conquest.

Additionally, remember that the damage made by Unapistim was one of the reasons (if not the main one, ignoring his ego) why Ergo lost against the armies of the Church, Tol Rauko and the Order of the Heaven.
 
Antoniofer said:
It was a Secret War, so its not a openly known war like those of the War of God, reaching the same magnitude its meaning to it turning open and then all the world would be involved.
Click to expand...
There's nothing that implies that was what they meant, and Ergo's is far from the only case of a "Secret War" that would qualify anyway.

There was no menance here, the 14 +2 nor Imperium were interested, so they conclusion leading to end existence wasn't the case.

The Imperium was obviously interested. Elienai just stopped Ergo herself before anyone else had to get involved.

And I undestand the AoE thingy, its basically the reason why everyone have their status despite being unable to destroy mountain and stuff (basically, if one want to have the power to destroy cities, continents, worlds, one need to by say power), but if Ergo doesn't have the AoE to destroy the universe, then where its the menance equally to Unapistim coming from?

It isn't clear how he would have done it specifically, only that the threat was there.

Ergo turning into a Messiah, all supernatural creatures coming from their hidding, including Samael, and then start to conquer/kill a bunch of people, that is what the text is refering to, as that its what happened in the War of God.

That happened in just about every other war before the War of God as well. The only thing that differentiates the War of God from the rest is the threat it posed, the very same threat that Ergo poses which is being addressed.

Never questioned Nameless scaling to Ergo sealed, and Imperium recruits people all the time, currently with 5 people in mind (tend to choose purely humans, but also supernatural beings like the case of Ergo), so that doesn't mean they are as strong or comparable to Rah. Plus one can say that Messengers are a treat the world, but that is not absolute, Arael do not really predicted the future (as you can known by now, predicting the future do not really works in this verse) she just had access to Imperium database, and from there, selected 21 creatures that were considered interesting/potential bothersome (or something like that, gotta check CoB). Even one of the Messengers were defeated by Church, and its currently used a puppet.

Yes. Her prophecy being accurate insofar as the specific people chosen as the ones in the prophecy isn't what I'm referring to. It's specifically because of the fact that they considered these 21 to be the greatest threats to the world that they should scale.

I'll look for the GoM bad ending again to clear things up.

The aftermath from the Upnapistim wiped out the magic in the area, which naturally drains supernatural beings. Ergo basically walked into a place where for normal people it'd be as if all the oxygen in the air was gone. He lost because he walked into a trap and was reduced to a weakened state. That's it really.
 
Just like difference between a nuclear bomb and its radiation, if one do not survive or severy weakened the last much less to the first, and even if you scale Unapistim to Rah, remember that he was decreated by it, while its effects were reduced by the C&G, so there's no way he scale to that. Ergo neither was a menance to the structure of existence, the machine treat the very Nexus, so even beings of gn 45 (that are existentially stronger than Ergo) wouldn't survive, that lead to a circular scaling.

No ther war compares to the War of God, it involved all the nations of the world, even before mentioning the creation of Unapistim (as I said, no one really knew about that machine, it just happened). The description refers to that, the crash between of the supernatural beings and humanity of all nations of the world once again, no destruction of existance or damage to the nexus mentioned, no one had the means to do that again (welp, except Elja, as she is more intelligent than Rah).

The 21 entities aren't destinied to end the world, it was just a form of Imperium to manipulate the Church and tell them "hey, these guys are powerful, beware with them"; if one of them was just a Messenger by like... 1 hour? Then replaced, as have happened other 2 times (one with Nascal, and the other with Memitim... yes, the Nameless its bad doing his work). Plus their menance its not necessary by being strong, Desdemona have a key that allows here to travel through the Barrier, and isn't more powerful (or at least not much more) that the other 4 that discovered the Book of the Dead (like Clover); someone also said (in the Discord, but when I asked the source it seems no paid attention) that Void has been killed by a group of inquisitors led by Nero Vargas, but its a manipulative creature that still stand as a menance.

Also, as additional info, I just read in the compilation of Edge that any "God" (I believe it was refering to gn 50) is it own universe, so you got some more info there.
 
Rah's machine destroyed the magic in the portion the world where it was released. Supernatural beings like Ergo need magic to survive like humans need oxygen. This is just a natural effect of the machine having gone off and has nothing to do with AP. The nuke analogy doesn't even work because it implies that everyone with the durability to survive one should be immune to radiation. Furthermore, having higher Gnosis than someone else doesn't automatically make you stronger than someone at a lower level.

The War of Darkness, which came before, involved literally every race on Gaia being threatened by the Duk'zarist and being forced to unite against them.

The Messenger stuff needs scans.

Thanks for the info. Unless there's a known number of "God"s, that's still just an unknown higher level of 2-C (I think?) Still good though.
 
Yes and no, someone is not stronger in the physical sense, but it is the existential sense, as I said before, the difference between gnosis 40 and 45 its the one of a minor god and the lord of a pantheon, so even if one is an inferior level, the one of gn 45 will win regardless. Other thing its Auspice, basically if you are a minor god and fight with someone that its a demi-god or below you're already stronger by simply being more important, as reality bend around that in order to give it the upper hand (its like an "illusory AP").

What scan do you need exactly? What it said about Desdemona and Memitim can be found in either the CoB or the Forum Compilation, I may exaggerated when say that Druaga dured 1 hour, but he was only known to be an enemy when he faced Elijah, in whose fight he died, in discord confirmed that Void was indeed "killed" by Neros and his group, but since most info about Anima its within vague mentions of AS or Light (basically the "Carlos voice in Discord"), the CoB, Animaladas and what its in the compilation.

Also, I known we do not acknowledge cross-scaling, but going by Carlos words, he said that he couldn't against Goku SS or above, although with prep he could defeat anyone except the GoDs and Zen'o; he also compaares the Shajad with the Endless from Sandman (although, I think he refer more to their ranks rather than power). Furthermore, it also states that Eljared could fight agaisnt 10 characters of Rah's level at the same time and have a 99.9% of probabilities to win.

But I must insist, no character below gn 50 (or even above, not sure) should scale to Unapistim, read about the discussions between Ergo and the Bearer, he never suggested that can destroy the structure of existence or nothing similar, at much that was comment in calling himself Omnipotent (we're talking about the guy that though fighting on Tol Rauko was a good idea).
 
By the way, you asked about the source of Eljared combat abilities compared to Eli, you can find it in the MEGA compilation ("98% supernatural powers and 2% physical power"), the document called BardosAnima.IRC-Hispano (link here so anyone can have access to it). naturally, the source its in spanish.
 
The value of Gnosis between characters wouldn't bar a feat or scaling from being legitimate. Gnosis is just a sort of supernatural worth measurement system that doesn't directly indicate strength. It implies it, sure, but by no means is it a linear thing. Auspice is a form of hax, and it doesn't inherently make you stronger than someone below you by default, it just forces the world to favor your actions so you get a sort of pseudo stat boost. If the character with less Gn was so much stronger than you that the boost doesn't help, you're out of luck.

I was specifically asking for anything indicating that the 21 hand selected "greatest threats to the world" wouldn't be considered a fair measurement of them having scalable power.

Cross scaling. A.

Why shouldn't he scale to something he was directly compared to? Gnosis has nothing to do with it. He's consistently shown and implied to have this level of power.

I'll check out the link. There's more than likely a lot of useful scaling information in CoB, but it's too much for a single person to translate all of it.
 
Strength its kinda irrelevant when one bends reality around it, of course, that its only applicable to beings of gn 45 or higher, maybe gn 40 but only if the difference is not that great, beings of gnosis 30 or below do not have enough control over reality to compensate its lack of strength. Its why Ergo its so weak comparable to his former self despite not decreasing his strength, he lost Auspice, so the typical boost he would have against the humans of Gaia (+80, +60 if they are quite "important", +40 is the human is Kisidan... or Gurmah) is lost.

Not all messengers are comparable to each others, they impose a treat not by strength alone, few are manipulative like Void, others have influence between other beings like Desdemona, others... welp, may have a plan, like the triumvirate, others have knowledge about power artifacts and technology like Deymos (he helped to build Unapistim); few of them as been eradicated by the Church, so power-wise, they do not represent a menance as the others.

Its not consistently shown to impose the same treat as Unapistim, only thing its avague comment about the War of God that most likely refer to the conflict itself, no other time its suggested that he would destroy the structure of existence, men, in case he conquered Abel he wouldn't need to do anything elso, as the supernatural creatures and Samael would rise and take over the world and Ergo wouldn't have the need to do anything else. The other reasons like Imperium wanting to recruit him neither suggest that, they recruit other characters in few moments, and he do not scale to a fully manifested Baal or Tawil.

And about the links, you can find few parts in english (as they comes from the english forum), but if you want an specific part to be translated, you can ask me for that (or other one, if wnat a second opinion).
 
Auspice starts at 40. And the point is that it's an ability, not a rule that having more Gn makes you automatically stronger.

Yes, not all messengers do things the same way. Not all messengers are equal, but all messengers are powerful enough that the Church hand picked them specifically as the 21 greatest threats to the world. Scans are needed to show why that assessment doesn't imply comparable or greater strength to A: Most of the world and B: Each other. We already know all of them are above Lady by a direct statement.

Why would the Imperium go out of their way to recruit him if he wasn't at least comparable to their own soldiers? These are guys who themselves have the power to destroy all of existence several times over, with abilities that make the Upnapistim look like a joke. If Ergo was worth less to them than their own soldiers, they wouldn't bother risking exposure to the world by trying to recruit him.

Ok.
 
Of course they are between the most strongest of the world, either by supernatural or physical means, they are at least lv 12 while the most powerful human (in the humanly sense) its lv 13, and the most powerful "human" (in the ambiguosly way) its lv 14+4 (technically Lucanor its lv 16, but most likely do not specialize in pure combat, although he fights), not all creatures stand in their way, but the weakest ones can be handled by the Church, Memitim and Void are proof of that (although the last one will come back regardless).

Also, Imperium's men aren't all equally strong: agents are around lv 9-10 (words by AS), and Godkillers are at least lv 12, their technology surpass of the Unapistim, yeah, but their agents do not have access to it, they do not attack with mini Unpistims or something similar. I would believe, if any, the Deus Ex would scale, as they have the power to destroy the world 10 times over (interprete as you want), but at the time, no one scale to it.

Yes, we known Ergo treats the world, but the structure of existence? Don't think so, again, he is pure talking, and though he have to support all the talk, he obviously is not the most powerful creature of the world when we got beings like the Skull Trio, Bringeus, Malekith (although only on Graven) and Amaterasu out there, without mentioning those that are sleeping/sealed or outside of Gaia. Again, we're talking about the guy that calls himself omnipotent and that fighting in Tol Rauko was a good idea.
 
Levels are 99% useless for power scaling. I could've sworn we were already agreed on that. I'd post the scan explaining why but I'd be doing so for the 3rd time on this thread. The Church has powerful people in its own right. People like Romeo and Lady are already examples of them being able to contend with Messengers. The Church isn't going to label the most powerful members of their own organization as "Messengers of the End". The Inquisition has powerful people. That's it.

Both the Imperium's magic and technology is greater than the Upnapistim is what was stated. There's no reason to assume their field agents wouldn't have access to their most potent magic. Running around with mini Upnapistims would be silly. They obviously don't want to destroy the universe but their magic scales in potency to being able to do so.

I've given more than enough context that "the world" here means "existence". Him being the "most powerful creature in the world" isn't relevant to my point. I don't remember him calling himself omnipotent tbh but it doesn't matter anyway. The Tol Rauko thing is just as irrelevant to the argument, but I'm addressing it because what you're implying bugs me a bit. Him walking into a trap was intentional. He knew it was a bad idea, but because Elienai openly challenged him, his pride wouldn't let him refuse. He knowingly walked into a trap because someone said "you can't" and he wanted to prove them wrong. That is literally his entire character in a nutshell. It's what all of his motives have been driven by from the very beginning.
 
If you have read through all the WoG you would known that AS indeed use levels to determinate how strong one is overall, it could be supernatural thing only, like the case of Eljared (as stated by AS, its only 2% physical stats), or could go pure physical (like any non mystical class); I known what it says about in the core about the levels, and I already show you character that despite their level are both supernatural or physically weak (at least compared to beings of their levels). There hasn't been any inconsistency about levels so far (you can tell me any instance where you doubt about that), Lady has no chance against any Messenger by her own, she was one-shotted by John when he was barely trying, Romeo have the most powerful artifacts in the PE (not Omega class) and due to his gifts he can fight those of superior level as long they are Between Worlds.

Most of the inconsistency comes from the inability of the wiki system for not accepting someone way weaker than other one can damage the last one; but even if that isn't true, remember, anyone that its capable to damage energy ignore durability as they attack the both the body and essence of the things, so even Lady damaging John do not make her comparable. Not all agents of Imperium are all powerful compared to those in Gaia, several of them were killed during the Rupture of the Heavens (is called that way? not sure how its in english) by the members of the New Brotherhood (4 of them), and neither of them compares to Rah (except maybe Anne, but I doubt it).

Sorry if I'm starting to be stubborn or sounding aggresive (I generally avoid to do so), Ergo being Tier 2 may not be impossible, but he do not scale Unapistim (reasons already stated), and pretty sure no human or natural being that isn't a Protodeus scale to tier 2 feats. If you are already tired to showing your point, worry not, I'm already tired too, so we just leave wait for Bambu and any other admin to decide (I messaged Matt and I think someone told Ultima, but at this time neither are interested.
 
Levels have very little relation to combat capabilities. The inconsistency itself is what you already pointed out in the same paragraph. Levels could be used to represent a person apt in fighting equally as much as someone purely based in intellectual pursuits. Lady can't beat a Messenger by herself and that isn't being debated. What she can do is keep up with them consistently and do damage to them. The instance in which Nameless one-shotted her occurred under literally the exact same circumstances in which she one-shots him later in the game. It was a sneak attack from behind, immediately after a fight with The Bearer and Ergo.

Someone "way weaker" shouldn't be able to harm the stronger opponent. A Tier 7 character (as Lady would be) isn't harming a tier 2 one, or even a tier 6 as Ergo is currently. The supposed dura neg is limited by Presence, of which John should have plenty. The New Brotherhood killing Imperium Agents just means they scale.

Likewise. I agree we should wait for Bambu and others to give their opinions if neither of us has anything else to add.
 
It depends of their category, if combat, the character will "invert" points in combat abilities, if mystical they'll do it in the mystical ones, character like Freelancer will invert in the secundaries (like Reich, that despite be lv 9, it lack of both supernatural abilities and combat abilities). If a character its a Tao lv 7 fights a Warrior lv 5, and both were made by AS (let's be honest, he do not follow his own rules when creating characters, but regardless, he is consistent with his creations), its fair to say that the first one its stronger.

Yeah, the exact issue with the wiki, they do not accept someone weaker damaging someone stronger, cuz generally assume that anything below their durability (or an arbitrary below a certain constant) will do nothing, but that its point and apart. And damaging energy its limited by the Presence, yes, but up to the double of Presence, Lady have 70, meanwhile, John have 100 (that its below 2x70), so the rule doesn't break in this case.
 
About the Damage Energy dura neg? It appears in the page 236 in the Core, in the same page of the list of structures and objects; if you look at the spell Possession, if one can damage energy and attack the possessed, it casue both damage to the body and the one that possesses. About limited to up to the double of Presence? In the page 102, Aure Extention (or how its written in english), however, ki techniques do not have that limit, so can damage energy regardless of the Presence of the target; other effects follow the same rule, making reference to the ki ability.
 
I was asked to comment here, so here I am.

I agree with Edwellken's points here.

For the stuff about levels, it seems quite obvious that they shouldn't be used for scaling, given the scan that states directly that they don't correlate to combat ability alone.

As for the Gnosis stuff, given a scan was posted stating directly that it had little to do with one's abilities, I don't see why it being the sole qualifier for a tier should ever be the case.

As for Ergo, 2-C seems fine for him, as it seems he was directly compared to a 2-C event in power, went on to end all of existence at some point in one of the endings and his power was considered valuable by people who themselves are capable of producing 2-C feats.
 
Heh, fine then, although scaling Ergo in that way will result in literally everyone being equally strong, from elementals like Alius to the strongest Noth, making Unapistim nothing special.

Guess we're done in that point.
 
Why would Alius and everyone else scale?

I guess everything is settled then aside from me adding scans to the Gnosis blog (which can honestly be done in a different CRT if necessary).

Next step is determining who scales to what.
 
I guess I'll repost my proposal from before.

God tiers (Low 1-C)
C'iel, Gaira, Beryls and Shajads (For obvious reasons, although none of these have a profile yet.)

"Possibly" rating for Pillars of Souls weapons for hypothetically being able to harm Beryls/Shajad, though this hasn't been put to the test.

Top Tiers (2-C)
The Powers in the Shadow, Rah, and Baal for their own feats.

Nemesis, Eljared, and Lazarus for being confirmed by WoG to be the most powerful beings in Gaia. Amaterasu for also being a potential candidate, and Bringreus for the same reason as Amaterasu, as well as Being one of the top 5 Messengers alongside Baal, Ergo Mundus, Yami no Tsubasa, and The First Chaos.

Varja for being literally Amaterasu but twice as strong.

The Drago for Erebus (Shajad) being convinced that no being weaker than a Shajad or Beryl could kill it. Tawil for being comparable to The Dragon, Rudraskha for being weaker than both, but still likely comparable, as well as being stated to be powerful enough to be "King of the Aeons" and compared to "a deity".

Omega (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) for being seen as a major threat by The Powers in the Shadow to the point that they needed to seal him away because fighting him would have revealed their presence to the world. It's also stated that not even an Aeon would have the power to confront him, which includes the likes of Tawil and The Dragon. (Fun fact, the guy also has a Pillar of Souls).

Likely Filisnogos for being mentioned in the same statement above regarding Omega and the Aeons, implying that it's comparable to them in power.

Etheldrea and The Nameless for helping to defeat Baal in the past, and being comparable to each other and Ergo. Elienai for also helping against Baal and being comparable to Ergo (but no profile).

Ergo Mundus for being compared to Rah, one of the "Top 5" Messengers, and having power valued by The Imperium.

Nascal Mehirim for fighting Ergo, Jonathan Kappel for fighting Ergo and being considered one of the biggest threats on Gaia by The Order of Nathaniel.

Malekith, Prince of Crows for being stated to be comparable to Ergo, and later proving this during their fight in Gate of Memories.

Tsukiyomi (no profile) for being weaker, but comparable to Malekith. All of the Kotoamatsukami for being stronger than Tsukiyomi, and helping to seal part of Varja's power before he became Amaterasu. Yagarema for being comparable to the Kotoamatsukami.

Likely Kujaku Hime for being the best fighter of the Asakura clan. Said clan being responsible for guarding the Magatamas which hold the other half of Varja's power, it's likely that they can stand up against the stronger humans in the verse.

Kisidan (no profile) for being comparable to Malekith, and likely the strongest human on Gaia. Possibly Elisabetta Barbados for Kisidan stating that she could be his equal with a bit more training. Griever for being weaker but comparable to Kisidan, and likely stronger than Elisabetta. Yuri Olso for being comparable to Griever.

Druaga for fighting Ergo and being comparable to Elijah Giovanni (Elienai's fiancee who also helped against Baal, being the one who specifically killed its avatar).

Ra-Me-Tek for fighting The Nameless.

"Unknown" (Yes that's her "name") for being comparable to Nameless and later embodying The Seed of Baal.

Romeo Exxet for being weaker but comparable to Ergo Mundus.

Red Lady (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) for being weaker than Ergo and Nameless, but somewhat able to keep up with them. Also provided support to Romeo during his fight against Ergo, and delivered a fatal blow to The Nameless in a surprise attack.

The Colonel. Should be at least comparable to Yuri Olso, and it's stated that "no man or immortal can touch him", implying that he's one of the stronger characters in the verse. Alastor should be comparable to The Colonel.

Matthew Gaul is "one of the most fearsome people in Gaia", and superior to both The Colonel and Yuri Olso.

Marchosias Lostaroth, as a High Inquisitor, should be at least superior to the likes of Lady, and probably at least somewhat comparable to Romeo Exxet.

Ophiel casually slaughters High Inquisitors, putting him above Marchosias

All the other Messengers for being considered to be "the 21 greatest threats to the world" by The Church of Abel, as well as being stated to be above the likes of Lady.

Likely Zhoul Orgus, as dragons grow in power with age. As a Dragon of Gaira, Orgus has been around just as long as Svalkislavos (one of the Messengers), and was even granted additional power by the Shajad Noah.

Possibly Gurmah-Gharus, as it should likely be somewhat comparable to the other three sleepers.

Behemoth (Anima: Beyond Fantasy) is referred to as a "destructive force whose power is equivalent to that of the oldest dragons", which obviously includes Zhoul Orgus and Svalkislavos. As " supreme sovereign of all the beasts that walk the earth", should probably at least be comparable to Gurmah-Gharus.

Possibly Seraphim Potestas. Their "extraordinary power" is "difficult to measure", and powerful enough that they're believed to be weapons created by the Beryls themselves (though this fact is unsubstantiated).

(7-B)
Varuna for his own feat. Fellow High Elder Elementals Agni (Anima: Beyond Fantasy), Arias Vayu, and Chtho scale for being comparable in strength, along with Elhaym and Lord of Darkness.

Seraphim Potestas is at least this strong. As the highest grade of light elementals, they should be far superior to Elhaym.

High 8-C
Ice Maide for her own feat.

Etrien Gnosos for also being greater elementals.

Shadow Master for treating "powerful elementals" as fodder. They should be at least much stronger than Ice Maiden.

The Machine supposedly has its own universal feat but it needs to be translated.

Everyone else either doesn't have enough information for me to make a non "headcanon"-ish case for scaling, or I couldn't find anything about them to begin with.

(There are probably some people I'm forgetting, but Antonio can point them out.)
 
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