Anima: Beyond Revisions (Major Verse-wide Changes)

[Antoniofer]

Welp, the natural beings do not become aware of the destruction of the pillars or reality or the uncreation in the sense of they known with exactitud what was decreated, just that they aren't affected by the alteration.

Refering the the Lv 100 spell from the Illusion path, the Fake Reality (that one when the caster just made stuff up and it happens), can be conventionally resisted, but any being regardless of natura level is affected, only beings of superior gnosis than the caster can resist it (although, considering that the entity that cast the spell have gn 45, is also possible that fate control caused by them can't be resisted by mortals).

 

[Edwellken]

Gonna put the Divinity thing to the sidebar since it isn't really necessary for this thread's conclusion.

@Antonio in case I'm just forgetting, is there anything else left to discuss here outside of making the templates for stuff like Gnosis and Natura+?

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, not sure if still wants to consider AA/DA as skill (combat) and speed feats, or characteristics as feats at all (in whose case, Rudra would have infinite lifting strength). There's no much speed feats for those below Impossible difficulty (lighting timing), the closest thing is subsonic ones (although, Baal's spawns attack with ultrasonic blasts).

Or if you consider necessary to make an order of magnitude for difficulties, such the poisons checks and AZ for examples. Users also likes to measure "hax" potency by range or number of affected, naturally this not apply here, that is measured by difficulty (for example, a difficulty 100 with planetary range [let's say, Gaia], has a 40% chances to affect 2/3 of the world's population [+10700000 people], but obviously with 5 m aoe is not going to do much)

 

[Edwellken]

For other speed feats:

Characters with Zen should have FTL speed for the "riding a beam of light" example in the core book.

Nameless (as a human, before being resurrected and gaining Messenger status) intercepted an attack that targeted Etheldrea from "hundreds of kilometers away" in mere seconds at the most.

There are several lightning attacks that can be avoided with dodge or block in-game.

The Light Psychic Discipline has a laser that can also be blocked or dodged.

For the difficulty thing:

Cold, Ice, and Absolute Zero are all resistible so a distinction there doesn't seem particularly necessary I think. Idk about poison. I've seen it split into both natural and supernatural types, and the effects can be pretty varied.

I think if we're going to use difficulty for potency, it just means that (just as an example because I can't be bothered to look up the specific values), say there's a mind control spell that affects an entire country with a difficulty of 140, and a single target spell with a difficulty of 160. The single target one would just have greater than Country level potency.

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't recall that exact example of riding light, is still factible tho. Wouldn't consider all ELE based attack to be as fast as lighting (you can say that any one with base damage 100 is actually lightning, as the core says), as just as the Laser Beam, is one attack that depends of the user aim.

Is just to have a sense of reference, someone with PhR 100 will be immune to deat by AZ by default (at least in normal conditions). Poisons and diseases is not that difficult, as they already have its own chapter in the core, basically no natural poison exceed lv 70 (140 VR at most), sames apply to diseases.

Potency is not as simply, range doesn't means more powerful (although this should be a general rule tho), take into account that the average peasant have MR/PsR 20, with enough range, a difficult above 120 already affect them all, that is like 50% of human population in Gaia. Using the rules of Combat Mass (or whatever is translated as), with a difficulty of 100 and a average resistance of 40, There's a 1% to affect a negiglible amount of people, a 39% to affect 1/3 of population, 40% to affect 2/3 of population, and 20% of all that population (that is around 95% of natural beings on Gaia, around +150000000 people).

Of course, I generally oppose to the "the more affected, the strongest is the power", but that is other issue.

 

[Edwellken]

The beam of light thing was in that chart giving examples of different difficulty levels. Lightning thing makes sense, sure. What do you mean by the laser depends on the user's aim?

Range is absolutely a measure of power. If you and someone else can use the same spell, but the power you put into it extends the range to cover a city whereas theirs is just their house, yours is definitely more powerful.

I agree that people generally overvalue the numbers when it comes to determining the potency of mindhax and the like, but not only do I not make the rules, it was agreed upon to be the best method for doing so, even if it isn't perfect. I'm in the camp that specific effects/ramifications of the hax are equally important, but the topic's been debated to death and this thread isn't the place for it.

 

[Antoniofer]

The difficult levels are for the Ps. Potential, not for the difficult to dodge (that said, Absurd potential is kinda high, even a machine Praetorian would have issues reaching that difficulty in normal conditions). The attack reaching its target depedns of their aim (basically Ps. Projection), if too low (that would mean that the attacker isn't that accurate or good attacking), it would mean that is pretty easy to dodge.

I would suggest, that anyone that reach Inhuman difficulty (280-320) would "move through a rain of high speed bullets" (assuming it can dodge, although as fast as parrying, is not easy to parry bullets); meanwhile anyone that have Zen and surpass Inhuman difficulty (320 and beyond), would scale to this "riding a beam of light" (although I would need to known the page to make sure is not a translation thingy).

Also, the range thing work that way cuz people decided to evaluate it that way, there's not a theoric standard rule beyond bypassing someone resistances, but that is point and apart.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Question.

The scans state that a book is physical paper and ink but also has a soul - the idea (concept) of what it is.

If all the books in creation were destroyed - by natural means, not by special magic - would that do anything to the soul of the book?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Nope, the soul would just return to the Soul Flux.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Nope, the soul would just return to the Soul Flux.

To add to this, it would likely do the same thing as a human soul does after the human dies: it would melt into the Flux and go into the Nexus, where it's """"reborn"""" anew.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Well it can't really be type 3 then. Type 3 you can destroy the concept by destroying everything that uses that concept. If the soul/concept of the book isn't affected by all the books being destroyed, it can't be type 3.

 

[Edwellken]

Right, each individual book has its own soul, which would just return to the Flux like Crimson said, and more books can always be made. You aren't accessing the concept of all "books" without using something like Uncreation.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

While I'm still waiting for Type 2 stuff on Discord, there are contradictions for Type 2 as well (from what I've seen). Example, Type 2 concepts are broad, whereas the concepts destroyed here can be stuff like "Irwin".

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't quite get what you said, care to put an example of this contradiction?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't quite get what you said, care to put an example of this contradiction?

Currently the main evidence I was shown for Type 2 is Destruction, in which you choose something and it's just gone. A level 100 spell, you can choose something like a species or something as specific as, say, your old house or the drug dealer down the street.

The latter makes this less about Type 2 Conceptual Erasure, since those arena Type 2 concepts.

 

[Antoniofer]

With that soell one can destroy more complicated stuff, from emotions to magic itself (until of course, Ormus fix that mess), it can uncreate anything (said by Carlos). The only thing it can't uncreate is the uncreation.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Nothing about the definition of type 2 concepts says that they have to be extremely broad and overarching. Souls also literally can't be type 3 or lower by definition considering what they do, and there isn't any reason to rate it weirdly like Nasuverse where concepts literally don't fit our standards in the slightest.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Have to agree there.

Just because these concepts are concepts of specific instances of things instead of one giant overarching concept of "book", to continue using the example in the scans, doesn't mean they can't be type 2.

Also, if the soul of a book is destroyed, that book is wiped from existence as if it had never been and reality changes to as if it had never existed. That seems pretty expansive to me anyway.

 

[Antoniofer]

Simply destroying the essence of things wouldn't erase it as a whole, people will still remember that book and, if read, their content (the verse still separate sentient life from inanimated objects or non living beings); what wouldn't be possible if to restorate it, if the essence of something is animically wiped out, not even manipulating time would bring it up.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

From what I've heard, it does. I'm really not the concept guy, but I've heard people like Wok say that it would be a contradiction for Type 2.

So for now, I can't approve of Type 2 based solely on that evidence.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, you can ask Wok about the subject, if he isn't too busy; has I've already said, not a fan of dividing powers into especific types. There's no much powers that erase the target and also their memory and any other form of trace, aside from Uncreation spell, Imperium's Magnitud 4 weaponry (apparently) and Gaira, for example, erasing someone with Sever Existence wouldn't erase the memories related to the victim.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I just spoke with Ultima, one of the main concept people, on discord about this, and he says that a concept doesn't need to be huge or overarching (like the concept of universe) to count for type 2.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Since that's pretty conclusively out of the way, I made a thread for page updates.