Anima: Beyond Fantasy Page Revision Thread

[Hl3_or_bust]

The purpose of this thread is to be a sort of hub for any updates to pages, as creating CRTs for every single one would be extremely inefficient and cumbersome.

To kick things off, I've recently finished a draft for an updated Void Knight, with the only real points of contention being

• whether or not One With The Nothing counts as Low-Godly, Low-Mid, or what I have it as due to contradictions within gameplay and, for the Void Knight specifically, its description (as the Void Knight is stated to instantly die upon decapitation), and
• whether or not Void would be counted as Death Manipulation

Updated Pages

• Void Knight
• The Nameless
• Dementia (Anima: Beyond Fantasy)
• Baroque (Anima: Beyond Fantasy)

 

[Antoniofer]

One With the Nothing do not makes one immortal at all, is "erase" the boundary between the body and the soul, so if a limb is cutted, another one made of ones essence will take its place; the limb is gone, but it do not make any difference. One can still die if one strike a vital, such the heart or the brain (reasons why people generally combinate this with Eternal Blood).

Void is not quite Death Inducement, it just cause massive damage, and in case some dies by the attack, its soul is erased. So failing the resistance check do not necessary means someone die.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The description for the ability repeatedly states that physical harm doesn't mean anything anymore. The only reason it wasn't immediately placed at Low-Godly from lore over gameplay is that the Void Knight is stated to instantly die upon decapitation.

It's mostly from it specifically messing up any life within its radius.

 

[Antoniofer]

It doesn't, the user no longer suffer from pain and severed limbs are meangless, but it can still die, the same description said, that attacking the heart or head would kill it.

Yeah, it does that, but it do not necessary kill, depends of the affected.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

this is the scan for the ability. "he finds himself beyond pain, fatigue, or physical damage; it does not matter the type of wounds that he might suffer, his energy will always maintain its original form" This sounds like fairly clear-cut Low-Godly on paper.

I'll probably just remove it, since it's not really that different from something like "Death Manipulation (can kill things)" in hindsight

 

[Antoniofer]

It also says "theorically, a character with this ability can survive while he has his head and few vital organs left"; it also explained further ahead, the character is immune to Criticals as long it do not aim its vitals.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Yeah, the ability contradicts itself, although with two statements that could give Low-Godly and one that would give Low-Mid. Again, the only reason it wasn't Low-Godly by default is the statement from the Void Knight's description. Criticals are also, as far as I am aware, entirely gameplay mechanics (you can kill people who should be 100,000s of times stronger than you by punching them in the head really hard or similar things)

 

[Antoniofer]

It do not really contradict itself, in such case, "beyond physical damage" sounds like it could be interprete as invulnerability (or course it doesn't). Mixed with Oneiros legacy and kinda more broken, as it would be needed to completely destroy the body in order to ultimately kill the character (although, no official character have the mix of both powers).

At the moment, the characters that have One with the Nothing can still be killed in the "conventional" way, such beheading the Void Knight, or the Nameless being impaled in the chest. Criticals are more related to damage than strength, of course attacking the vital of someone with Damage Barrier or elevated AT wouldn't work, as they are invulnerable/highly durable.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I don't think any invulnerability on the wiki has a justification like that. also quit reminding me that I didn't pick Latent Blood so i could get the broken ass Legacies later :eyes:

Also, John can come back from his soul being destroyed and he can regen through shit like damage = life sacrifice because his power is the goddamn Gnosis 50 of Regenerationn. Also also, you can literally get lucky and hit someone with a crit in the head and, unless they have some weird power or regen 19 or 20 (at which point they would have already killed you thousands of times over), instantly kill them. It's pretty demonstrably game mechanics.

 

[Antoniofer]

I talking in verse terms, not in the wiki ones. John is immortal, not invulnerable nor have a high regen rate, still have weak points and can be temperaly killed if stabbed, and I believe the Fates (if related to one of them) have Gn 45.

But in short, One with the Nothingness doesn't give immortality, just a kind of pseudo-Regenerationn and pain immunity, while having a weak point it can be killed, if it doesn't, welp, theorically can only be killed if the body is completely destroyed.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Well, this isn't the game and game mechanics are not counted here. A High 8-C being able to kill a 2-C because of luck is damn near the literal definition of gameplay mechanics. Lore in Anima tends to conflict with gameplay in a way that seems as though it's downplaying itself, but lore is what we are using here because otherwise we'd have to stop using lore for D&D which is outright not going to happen for the exact same reasons that lore is being used over gameplay here.

So again, in lore and the ability description, OWTN has two statements that could give Low-Godly and one for Low-Mid, coupled with one from the Void Knight itself.

 

[Antoniofer]

That's why I say, you'll eventually scale everyone to everyone, in one way or another. And there's no really contradiction, "everything is in the book", within the acceptable range (for example, Gottergamerung [or whatever is written] won against Rossencraft despite the first one having only a 40% chances to win, unusual, but within range), but I'll let it be, I would like to move to another verse if it would be in english.

The power is pretty clear describing the ability, beyond pain, fatigue and physical damage, but do not grant regen in the conventional way, the body and soul are one, so if a limb goes down, the "soul" just reform one anew, those two characters mentioned are proof of it, killed if deheaded or stabbed in the heart.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Except that gameplay mechanics could realistically be used to do that and that itself is part of the reason why we don't use them. You could theoretically beat Giygas at level 1 by hacking your way to the end of Earthbound and getting lucky, but that's not going to be listed even if it was possible.

It doesn't grant Low-Godly in game because that would be overpowered and by your logic the users should be intangible in-game, which they again aren't. The description itself is fairly standard Low-Godly, with the rather blatant "physical harm doesn't matter anymore" stuff. Your body being made of the void juice that is Nemesis should, if lore was completely represented in gameplay, make criticals impossible because you have no weak points and are basically a sludge at that point, but instead it just makes non-directed ones not work. Do you see the issue with basing everything off of the in-game effects over the lore?

 

[Antoniofer]

It that the power do not grant Low-Godly regen, even gameplay wise, it do not alter Regenerationn, give intangibility (that's another power) nor stop one from aging, becoming immortal is not that simply in-game. This avoid Criticals, that is what happens when someone receive so much damage it cause agonizing pain to severed limbs, so "negatives" for that are avoided unless they go for the weak points.

Now, let's about lore, we read the description of the power before reaching the "gamewise", the character do not turn into a soul, nor intangible nor anything, it merely close the gap between the boundary of both, so the "new body" have the properties of both the physical body and the soul: harm the body, but the soul still unharmed, so it "regen" any injury and in case there's limb, is replaced by one made of energy.

So that's all, no augmented regen nor immortality from neither side, character is still tangible, the Void Knight still have a weak point, and the ability do not alter it; Low-Godly? Not quite, not by having this ability alone, Low-Mid? Welp, you could interprete it as this, but the original arm do not regenerate, is just replaced by another functional one.

 

[Antoniofer]

In short, consider this ability to be the combination of these ones: Damage Immunity, Pain Immunity and Unnatural Limb Regrowth (I actually created the last one, kinda nice, eh?).

 

[Overlord775]

@Antonifer

TBH, that void stuff being contradicted by gameplay would be more likely to be that everyone has Reneration Negation and NPI

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Overlord this isn't Ed's homebrewed Anima. Fire and shit slowing down Void Knight regen from OWTN is very clearly gameplay mechanics.

 

[Antoniofer]

Do you mean VK's Void power? And, yeah, basically all current profiles here have NPI, but OwtN do not makes someone intangible. Although I couod argue that Sacrifice Damage (that reduce regen) ignore OwtN, but there's no proof for that.

 

[Overlord775]

@Hl3

Sorry <.<

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, is not like VK regen is that high.

By the way, I'm curious, why having Style qualify as Fate Manipulation?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It that the power do not grant Low-Godly regen, even gameplay wise, it do not alter Regenerationn, give intangibility (that's another power) nor stop one from aging, becoming immortal is not that simply in-game. This avoid Criticals, that is what happens when someone receive so much damage it cause agonizing pain to severed limbs, so "negatives" for that are avoided unless they go for the weak points.

Now, let's about lore, we read the description of the power before reaching the "gamewise", the character do not turn into a soul, nor intangible nor anything, it merely close the gap between the boundary of both, so the "new body" have the properties of both the physical body and the soul: harm the body, but the soul still unharmed, so it "regen" any injury and in case there's limb, is replaced by one made of energy.

So that's all, no augmented regen nor immortality from neither side, character is still tangible, the Void Knight still have a weak point, and the ability do not alter it; Low-Godly? Not quite, not by having this ability alone, Low-Mid? Welp, you could interprete it as this, but the original arm do not regenerate, is just replaced by another functional one.

Your arguments so far have stemmed entirely from gameplay, something that we just had a huge thread to get removed from pages. Lore is taken over gameplay 100% of the time.

This is headcanon and objectively not what the ability does from its own description.

What part of this paragraph is not usimg gameplay over lore? Because as already stated lore is always taken over gameplay.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ok, tell about that lore part where OwtN grants Low-Godly? Cuz as far I known, "beyond physical damage" so not qualify as such, it could be anything between type 2 Immortality to Invulnerability, and how you already noticed, VK nor Nameless still have their "conventional" weaknesses (as much an undead can have weaknesses), men, the description itself basically said that one can still be killed by damaging the vitals, and that is before explaining how the mechanics of the ability.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

"He finds himself beyond pain, fatigue, or physical damage; it does not matter the type of wounds that he might suffer, his energy will always maintain its original form"

Also no, that doesn't fit either of those because actual harm still affects them, but for someone with Low-Godly it's not an issue at all. Also also, stop using gameplay mechanics.

 

[Antoniofer]

In what moment of that text I used game mechanics? The first part of the description of the ability still do not refer to game mechanics. Well, yeah, his body is sustained by its essence, it will maintain its original form, this not really contradict anything.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The part where you bring up the in-game mechanics of the ability as though it means anything.

Reread it closely. "His energy will always maintain his original form." This energy is the energy of Nemesis, which also composes the user's body and soul. So he's literally regenerating from his soul.

 

[Antoniofer]

Honestly I fail to see where I mentioned it in that very text.

Guess I have nothing much to say, but if you and others considers OwtN to be Low-Godly, take into account that VK can still be killed by beheading, is an undead so it do not have vital organs, separating the head from the body is the only way to kill it; and note, OwtN do not regenerate in the conventional sense, the damaged parts are merely replaced with energetic ones (it is better or worst of how you believe it is, welp, that is up to other to decide).

 

[Edwellken]

I wouldn't call OwtN Low-Godly on its own. It specifically says that you still need vital points such as the head and certain organs to survive. That's not a contradiction, but rather a specification on the limits of the ability.

Hypothetically if you have a character that has OwtN and doesn't need their head or organs to survive then it might be Low-Godly I guess?

 

[Antoniofer]

There was a thread about that in the Edge Forum, it was about Eternal Blood + OwtN; I can read through it then tell you, if you accept it.

 

[Edwellken]

That would be cool.

Also nice job making this thread, Hl3. I was gonna be dumb and just make another big CRT for like all the characters at once like some sort of idiot.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ok, it do not says nothing that we didn't known, if one character doesn't have vitals or weak points is pretty hard to kill, however, as Light said there, if someone lost the head it do not regenerate, and just replaced with one made of energy, but since is not a biological head the character suffer from blindness, deafness and other senses related to the head.

Theorically, one can still move and act as an bunch of agonizing pieces of bloody flesh.

 

[Edwellken]

Lol.

That might not actually be that bad if you have the right spells or techniques to compensate for the lack of senses.

 

[Antoniofer]

I would argue that combinating Nemesis with magic isn't the most common tactic, but using spells to increase one Regenerationn rate would work to recover one head and vitals.

 

[Edwellken]

If not magic, there might be an artifact or something to grant some alternate form of ESP. (Also we definitely need a discussion thread).

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, having an ESP like the Type-004 would prevent one from going blind and/or deaf, also Ki Erudition but I don't think it works with detecting sound in the sense it dicern tones.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

might not be that bad in combination with a wizard with Recreate

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

There's ond creature power that also makes senses uneeded. Same with PER 20 (nobody has that tho)

 

[WHYNAUT]

If not magic, there might be an artifact or something to grant some alternate form of ESP. (Also we definitely need a discussion thread).

I second this.

 

[Antoniofer]

Damien is the closest one, it have PER 19, although in other cases, it has PER 3.

 

[Edwellken]

Made the discussion thread so we don't keep derailing this one.

 

[Edwellken]

Anyway back to Void Knight, I would change the regen justification to something like:

"(Their bodies are fused with the energy of Nemesis, allowing them to maintain their form regardless of damage by replacing any lost parts with those made of pure energy. Void Knights will continue to regenerate so long as their heads remain intact.)"

Neutral about keeping "Possibly Low-Godly" given the nature of the ability, but in practical terms for Void Knight specifically it works as a really good Low-Mid.

I wouldn't consider the blood manip to be Creation since it's using the blood itself to create the objects.

Also all undead should have this.

Everything else looks good.