Anilaza (DBS Episode 121)

[Aeyu]

The only thing I was recommending was At least 3-A, for the reasons I already stated in the OP and scans, and only because we don't know how powerful he is individually. It's not necessarily saying oh he's likely a High 3-A, it's just saying that we don't know if individually he would be > Kaioken x20 Blue Goku or something similar. Not to mention that if Vegeta can take on Jiren with out Kaioken and actually inflict damage (more than Hit), then I think that could actually be implied. All 5 fighters also seemed to increase all of their respective powers to maximum, which was clearly demonstrated. However, I don't agree with Low 2-C unless Vegeta fights Jiren on par or relative to UI Goku without a major powerup.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Peter

Aye, and his barrier could let him push himself through the energy sphere.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I should also mention that we, on multiple occasions, use "At least 2-A" for similar situations like Aniraza has here, when the gap to the next tier is just as large.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with Ever, obviously.

 

[Peter1129]

So basically Android 17 has stronger physical attacks than Ki blast. Is this the first time this has happened in Dragon Ball? I'm pretty sure normally it's the other way around.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Ki blasts are normally not exactly more powerful, they just cover more area so they're more effective at killing enemies (Especially if they have regen like Cell or Buu).

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we close this thread, and wait for more information?

 

[Ryukama]

I agree that Anilaza is likely comparable to Kefla in terms of raw power, and that Dragon Ball does not make a distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C like we do. It causes problems when attempting to rate it properly.

Anilaza eventually got defeated by 3-5 (depending on how you want to argue certain people) Super Saiyan Blue level characters. Kefla was stated to be comparable to the Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 Spirit Bomb while just in SSJ1. Then in SSJ2 she's on Ultra Instinct level. She would demolish Anilaza, even without this site's 3-A/Low 2-C distinction.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Ryukama]

Well that doesn't have much to do with the actual revision itself so sorry for going a bit off topic. Just expressing my opinion that Kefla is still much stronger than Anilaza.

As for the revision, I think saying that current SSB is on Ultra Instinct level is far too huge of a speculative assumtpion for now. And we have no idea if Jiren's just toying/restricting his power on Vegeta or if Vegeta's fighting him via some asspull power boost. We should wait until further confirmation before putting the SSBs, and by extension Anilaza, on Ultra Instinct levels.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

And we have no idea if Jiren's just toying/restricting his power on Vegeta or if Vegeta's fighting him via some asspull power boost.

TBH wouldn't be surprised. lmao

 

[Joseph619]

Well that doesn't have much to do with the actual revision itself so sorry for going a bit off topic. Just expressing my opinion that Kefla is still much stronger than Anilaza.
As for the revision, I think saying that current SSB is on Ultra Instinct level is far too huge of a speculative assumtpion for now. And we have no idea if Jiren's just toying/restricting his power on Vegeta or if Vegeta's fighting him via some asspull power boost. We should wait until further confirmation before putting the SSBs, and by extension Anilaza, on Ultra Instinct levels.

Speaking of asspull, rage Vegeta making Beerus bleed is one of them. Although I don't know what made Vegeta so strong this time, Bulma is on Earth and away from Jiren lol

 

[TheRustyOne]

Ryukama@

One problem with that is that Goku fought Kefla as a SSB just fine and even sent her flying with one punch with a standard Kaioken and blitz her.

Even after blocking a attack she said it made her arms go numb.

So current SSB Goku is equal to the Spirit Bomb possible higher, Anilaza was able to overpower him and other Blue level opponents.

 

[Ryukama]

Are you forgetting when Kefla powers up right after, one shots SSB Kaioken Goku, and is stated by Whis to be comparable to SSB Kaioken x 20 Spirit Bomb which is what prompts Goku to go Ultra Instinct? Like you're bringing up every detail of that fight except for the most important ones.

There is no problem. SSJ1 Kefla at full power is on SSB Kaioken x 20 Spirit Bomb level. And I don't know how you get SSB Kaioken Goku overpowering SSJ1 Kefla before she powers up to somehow equate to current SSB Goku being stronger SSB Kaioken x 20 Spirit Bomb at all. How are those things related?

 

[Aeyu]

It's not putting them at Low 2-C. I disagree with that much. However, I feel like there still is enough evidence to warrant an At least 3-A rating.

I still think the scans provide all we need, and even if we're not using Goku as a benchmark, we can still use Vegeta and the other 5 at full power being enough to warrant this, as I've stated above. There is no need to bring UI Goku or Kefla into this unless Vegeta is somehow comparable to Jiren.

And if you wanna use the "Kefla is much stronger," argument, then you're essentially trying to argue that SSJB Kaioken Goku is stronger than Vegeta at full power, Gohan at full power, 17 at full power, Goku at full power SSJB, and Freeza in Golden at Full Power who was >= SSJB Goku at full power all combined, which I think is just as much of a stretch. If that were the case, why wouldn't Goku have just done the same thing again?

 

[AKM sama]

If Anilaza is getting a profile, he should be 3-A according to what we know currently.

I know DB doesn't make a distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C and even if it does, it is certainly not by infinities lol. We'll have to wait for the context behind Vegeta vs Jiren.

 

[Aeyu]

At least 3-A is 3-A though. It's not about saying "b-but he's possibly High 3-A", it's about saying that he at full power was able to push back 5 VERY HIGH LEVEL 3-A's who are arguably above 3-A at this point BY HIMSELF even when weakened, showing that while he could be argued to be more powerful, 3-A is a safe lower end and it's the least of what we can say his power is at. Putting him at base 3-A is making more presumptions than the former.

 

[Megamangohan]

But we have had characters who have been at the very high end of their respective tiers. Just look at YHVH.

 

[AKM sama]

But almost every top tier 3-A in DBS sits very high up on the scale of 3-A. So will they get At least 3-A too?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I mean the 3-A gap is literally any number below infinity, even if you wank, the most you can probably say is the characters are in the thousands of times above 3-A by now, anilaza should just be 3-A for now.

If we use the At least rating for other characters who aren't close to the edge of their tier, or have any indication of possibly scaling to someone above their tier, doesn't mean we shouldn't do the same here, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Ryukama]

All I've said is that Anilaza is not on Ultra Instinct level, and Kefla is much stronger than him. Nothing about this "At least 3-A" vs Low 2-C stuff.

"And if you wanna use the "Kefla is much stronger," argument, then you're essentially trying to argue that SSJB Kaioken Goku is stronger than Vegeta at full power, Gohan at full power, 17 at full power, Goku at full power SSJB, and Freeza in Golden at Full Power who was >= SSJB Goku at full power all combined"

You're essentially trying to argue 5 Super Saiyan Blues are stronger than someone who's above 20 Super Saiyan Blues while still not at full power. Kefla is much stronger than Anilaza.

 

[Megamangohan]

If we don't use the "At least" rating for characters outside of DBS who have any (even extremely tiny) indication of possibly scaling to someone above their tier, we shouldn't do the same here.

In this context, any leap ahead of 3-A would be tiny, since the gap to the next tier is infnity.

I STRONGLY agree with everything mentioned above within this comment.

 

[Aeyu]

Except for the fact that we have, as Ever was saying before.

I have never been for Low 2-C unless Vegeta scales to Jiren. I have mentioned this countless times.

And they're not just base SSJB's. Gohan knocked out Koichirator, who SSJB Goku and Vegeta were struggling with. Golden Freeza at full power was >= Goku in SSJB at full power. 17 is relative to SSJB but could be less or more than. Vegeta is clearly shown to be fighting Jiren with some aptitude in the next episode and the scans in the first couple of posts come from an episode AFTER Goku fought Kefla, showing that he's gotten stronger since then, which I then corroborated with him getting inexplicably stronger the second time he got UI. This is clearly an issue of semantics. As I and others have said, 1. The gap between 3-A and Low 2-C in DB is NOT shown to be infinite, for reasons which have already been outlined, and 2. Assuming that Kaioken Blue x20 Goku could defeat Anilaza by himself just isn't something you can really prove. Again, this has nothing to do with Kefla, and she shouldn't even be brought into this equation.

At least 3-A would be good and not to mention more accurate because in a 1 on 1, he was never able to be harmed by any of the Z fighters. He was able to punch through space, something that would logically require bending through a 4th spatial dimension to achieve, which Beerus even said he accomplished through his sheer power. Additionally, not only did it take all 5 of these warriors to fight him, and the only reason they even beat him, even weakened, was because 17 caught him off guard and destroyed the reactor.

 

[Ryukama]

Golden Frieza, SSB Vegeta, 17 and Gohan are all comparable to current SSB Goku. Maybe some of those guys might be argued to be slightly above him but for the most part those other 4 guys are are around equal to SSB Goku, as you've even said.

So Anilaza fought and was defeated by 5 people on the level of SSB Goku. What makes you say he's stronger than someone who's stronger than someone who's stronger than 20 people on the level of SSB Goku?

It's just math. The combined might of 5 people on SSB Goku level is not greater than being far above 20 times SSB Goku level.

I brought this up because people are saying that Anilaza is as strong or stronger than Kefla, which he's not. Kefla is far stronger than him.

As for Vegeta fighting Jiren, we still don't have the full cotext of that. Jiren could be toying around, restraining his power or Vegeta got some sort of boost. Until we know, based upon the current evidence, Kefla is much stronger than Anilaza .

 

[Ryukama]

This argument is basically "5 SSB Gokus combined is much stronger than 20 SSB Gokus combined".

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Aeyu You didn't really prove anyone is stronger than SSB Goku KKx20, you just said the characters got stronger, there is no define amount/number of how much stronger they got, while KKx20 means 20xSSB.

His space-time feats are pathetic compared to what a Low 2-C can do, that's just hax, you need universal space-time feats to be Low 2-C.

 

[Aeyu]

You're bringing Kefla into this again. Why? She doesn't need to scale with him. Neither does Kaioken. Goku AFTER fighting Kefla was shown to need more and more drastic amounts of power put against him to achieve UI. This alone proves he's gotten more powerful since fighting her, not to mention his improvements vs Jiren and Piccolo's statements that Kefla's gotten as powerful as Goku was when first using UI corroborating this.

My main point: Anilaza wasn't outright defeated by them though. It was only when he was weakened and disoriented by 17's sneak attack on his weak point that they managed to knock him off, and even then it was because they pushed his blast back (similar to Goku using Kamehameha to leverage Zamasu's Holy Wrath back at him to damage Merged Zamasu)

And before you go saying it's just math, it's already largely been agreed upon that multipliers don't really count for anything, the plot determines how powerful people are.

Unless you really think Kaioken Goku could beat Anilaza by himself, which just isn't shown, it seems speculation at best.

Not to mention that Jiren was not even going seriously against Goku even while in UI, but he was still shown to scale for being able to get some hits in.

 

[Megamangohan]

@Ryu, wait kaiokenX20 boosts SSB by 20? I thought kaioken only multiplies to his base state, and then adds that multiplier from his BASE state to the SSB power. please show me evidence, i'm ignorant.

 

[AKM sama]

I personally don't have any problem with "At least 3-A" rating. I was just saying that it could be applied to many other characters who are high af on the 3-A scale. Anyway, it's really not a big deal.

 

[Aeyu]

Also, @Akm, if we extrapolate Goku being more powerful since fighting Jiren and getting used to UI (a la SSJG, which proves this isn't some random thing), an At least 3-A rating could make sense for these upper echelons, with Vegeta closing the gap with Jiren. An At least 3-A rating was already considered for Hit in the past as well for being able to slightly affect Jiren, so this could be a potentiality to address the sort-of-middle power between the 3-A and Low 2-C characters.

 

[Ryukama]

"You're bringing Kefla into this again. Why?" I told you why. "I brought this up because people are saying that Anilaza is as strong or stronger than Kefla, which he's not. Kefla is far stronger than him." All I'm arguing is that based upon the current evidence we have, Kefla is much stronger than Anilaza.

"He wasn't outright defeated by them though. It was only when he was weakened and disoriented that they managed to knock him off (similar to Goku using Kamehameha to damage Merged Zamasu)"

5 SSBs were stronger enough to hold off Anilaza's attack, 17 could weaken Anilaza and those 5 eventually overpowered him out of the ring. Why wouldn't 20+ SSBs be strong enough to do that?

"And before you go saying it's just math, it's already largely been agreed upon that multipliers don't really count for anything, the plot determines how powerful people are."

Agreed by who? No. 20 SSBs is stronger than 5 SSBs. I don't care who "agreed upon" that it isn't. You need to find me evidence that somehow 5 is now bigger than 20 for me to accept that.

"Unless you really think Kaioken Goku could beat Anilaza by himself, which just isn't shown. It's speculation at best."

I think someone who is stronger than someone who is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 could beat Anilaza by herself. What actually is speculation is the idea that current SSB Goku and his peers got so much stronger since the Kefla fight that those 5 combined now greatly surpasses SSBKKx20 and that multipliers mean nothing and 5 is a bigger number than 20.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Aeyu That's headcanon, nothing proves goku is gogleplexes of times stronger than when he fought jiren, and even if they were on the upper boundary of 3-A, there are still 2 infinities below Low 2-C.

Also you still aren't proving why 5 SSB characters are above a SSBx20, kaioken has always been established to be a linear multiplier, so i am not sure why there is issue with the math , prove how 5 SSB 's are above 20 SSB's.

 

[Aeyu]

Why are my other, valid points being ignored? Like the fact that they COULDN'T DEFEAT HIM until 17 exploited a weak spot? It always is the same thing, with Kefla and Kaioken.

And that's like saying that SSJ is x50 always and so Kefla can't possibly be Low 2-C because 50x2 multiplier, when it's a little bit of a different case. Vegeta fighting Jiren somewhat effectively only furthers this argument, since Goku in SSJB x20 Kaioken couldn't even land a real hit.

And why is it speculation when Whis literally confirms this?

DBS is shown to vacillate in power levels all the time. And they're not all equal to Goku as has been proven many times over. You're still ignoring that they couldn't beat him until a weak spot was exploited. Finally, why does everyone keep acting like Jiren is infinity x infinity stronger than other characters when DBS does not facilitate this sort of logic?

 

[Megamangohan]

i give up

I blame toei for this level of nonsence in powerscaling.

 

[Megamangohan]

I mean if character A (ssb vegeta)< character B (SSBKK Goku)< character c (xx% power Jiren)< character A, what logic do we have?

 

[Aeyu]

None, really. It's all kind of based on interpretation. The main issue here seems to be safeness vs pinpoint accuracy, which always leads to intense arguments, but there's literally no spite here from me, this kind of stuff is fun

At least we can all agree that Low 2-C is a bit of a stretch. I just fear that Vegeta being comparable to Jiren in Blue without some significant powerup is going to cause all kinds of craziness. Sure, it might be argued as PIS, but what if it is literally stated that Vegeta has maintained his edge over Goku in Blue this entire time?

 

[Ryukama]

"Like the fact that they COULDN'T DEFEAT HIM until 17 exploited a weak spot?"

5 SSBs still held off the attack, 17 could still weaken him by hitting that spot, and these 5 after weakening him could then overpower him. Again, if 5 SSBs were able to do all these things, why wouldn't 20+ SSBs do so and much more effectively?

"And that's like saying that SSJ is x50 always and so Kefla can't possibly be Low 2-C because 50x2 multiplier, when it's a little bit of a different case."

Just because Kefla's power boost according to this website is inconsistent with the stated SSJ2 multiplier in a guidebook does not mean that now 5 SSBs is somehow stronger than 20+ SSBs.

"Vegeta fighting Jiren somewhat effectively only furthers this argument, since Goku in SSJB x20 Kaioken couldn't even land a real hit."

Again, we don't know the full story behind Vegeta vs Jiren. Based upon current evidence Kefla is still much stronger than Anilaza.

"And why is it speculation when Whis literally confirms this?"

Whis confirmed that Goku and his peers got so much stronger since the Kefla fight that these 5 together now greatly surpass SSB Kaioken x 20?

"there's literally no spite here from me, this kind of stuff is fun :

I obviously feel the same way and hold no bad feelings towards anyone who disagrees with my opinion, especially on something as unimportant as this.

 

[AKM sama]

About Goku being stronger after the fights with Jiren and Kefla due to Whis' statement:

I would only like to point out that Whis was referring to the threshold power to break the shell which was rising.

Let the multiplier for UI be X. So if Goku was a 10 when he broke the shell for the first time to go UI which would be 10X, Whis' statement means that Goku can now endure being a 10 better than before and he needs to be a 15 in order to break the shell once again and his UI would be 15X. That's all. The threshold of breaking the shell has been increased. That doesn't mean 15 = 10X, or current SSB is reaching UI-1 level.

 

[Aeyu]

But they were still getting pushed back, though, until that thing happened. What if Jiren had a weak spot that let you disarm him? Would it stop him from being Low 2-C?

And all I'm trying to say is that it's not really the same thing, and the Goku getting stronger each time he attains UI is a whole nother bag of nuts. Which is really Toei's fault and not ours.

Here's the thing with Kefla. I would actually argue her to be At least 3-A as well in her SSJ1 form if this were applied, since she was able to rock Kaioken Goku's world. (Not to mention Whis literally saying each time he gets UI he needs a dramatically stronger stimuli each time due to acclimation, and her "infinite power," thing could finally make sense.)

And well no, but what I am saying is not that Anilaza is High 3-A or some other nonsense, just that he could be stronger, since we never saw him fight one on one. The crux of my argument is that those 5 were struggling massively until 17 did what he did.

And well, I'm aware of that, but I don't want people to think that I'm trying to start trouble. I just try to defend my case the best I can. If it doesn't go through, I'm not gonna be upset about it in any way.

Finally, how does Goku needing stronger stimuli not imply him getting stronger when this is directly corroborated with Goku's second UI being stronger than the first, with Kefla being that stronger stimuli. No one has yet touched on that.

 

[Ryukama]

And Anilaza was still getting held at bay and didn't immediately push them out. The point is that 5 SSBs were at least strong enough to hold him back, so 20+ SSBs would be able to as well. More likely, they'd probably overpower him.

If someone was strong enough to exploit Jiren's weak point, being at bare minimum 4 times stronger than that person would mean you'd also be able to exploit the weak point.

The point is that based upon the current evidence, Kefla is much stronger than Anilaza. Anilaza is roughly on the level of 5 SSBs (maybe stronger but not overwhelmingly stronger). Kefla is a lot higher than 20.

And yeah the SSBs that fought Anilaza were stronger than the SSB that fought Goku. But there isn't enough evidence to suggest they are so much stronger than the 5 of them together now greatly surpass 20 of the previous SSB.