Angels Can't Clock Out: The Divine Job Security of DB's Type 8 Immortals + Two other abilities

[AizenBankai09]

Before haunting me down this is my first crt, it has taken me 2 weeks to make so I hope I've done it correctly!


Alrighty firstly, This proposal suggests that the angels in Dragon Ball should be classified as possessing Type 8 Immortality. According to the current standards, Type 8 Immortality means that a character's immortality depends on a connection to a specific being, object, place, or concept. In Dragon Ball Super, it's stated that the angels' existence hinges on following certain divine laws, making this a fitting classification.


Now why do angels qualify for Immortality type 8?

Understanding Type 8 Immortality:

• Type 8 Immortality is when a character can't die unless a specific external condition, like a concept or law, is met.

• Evidence from DBS:
  • Whis states that the only way to eradicate an angel is by breaking their divine law. This indicates that their continued existence is directly tied to these laws.
  • The laws that angels follow can be seen as a "concept" that grants them immortality. As long as these laws are upheld, angels cannot be eradicated.

Context of the Scan:

1. Angels Have Rules: Angels in db have a strict set of rules they must follow, one of which is that they can only fight during training.
2. Breaking Rules = Eradication: Whis explains that if an angel breaks these rules, they are completely erased from existence. This is the only way an angel can be "killed."
3. Immortality Tied to Rules: This means that as long as the angels follow the rules, they can't die. Their existence is directly connected to their adherence to these divine laws.

Implications for Type 8 Immortality:

• Life Linked to Rules: The angels’ immortality depends on following their divine laws. If they break the laws, they cease to exist.
• Unique Condition: This special condition of being erased if they break the rules fits the definition of Type 8 Immortality, where a character's immortality is based on an external factor (the divine laws).

Now, let us debunk some misconceptions:

• Misconception : "Angels following rules is like employees following workplace rules":
  • Rebuttal: Unlike workplace rules, breaking the divine laws for angels results in complete erasure, not just punishment. This existential consequence shows their life is tied to these laws.
• • Misconception : "Their life isn't literally linked to the law":
    • Rebuttal: Whis' statement makes it clear that adherence to the law is crucial for an angel's existence. This dependency fits the criteria for Type 8 Immortality.
• • Misconception : "Angels can come back due to the law":
    • Rebuttal: There's no evidence suggesting angels can revive through the law. Instead, the law prevents their erasure, underscoring their link to it for continued existence.
• • Misconception : "Other Characters Also Follow Laws but Aren't Immortal":
    • Rebuttal: Most characters face punishment, not death, for breaking rules. For angels, breaking their law leads to erasure, showing their lives are tied to the concept of the law.
• • Misconception : "Angels can be killed by other means":
    • Rebuttal: There is no canonical evidence suggesting other means to kill angels, reinforcing their dependency on divine law for immortality.
• • Misconception : "Angels are just following orders, not immortal because of them":
    • Rebuttal: Following orders doesn't grant immortality. The angels' existence is tied to these laws, making their life force linked to these rules.
• • Misconception : "Laws change, so their immortality wouldn't be reliable":
    • Rebuttal: The divine laws in Dragon Ball Super are immutable within the series context. Their immortality is as reliable as the laws remain, fitting Type 8 criteria.
• • Misconception : "Type 8 Immortality should involve more mystical or abstract concepts":
    • Rebuttal: Type 8 Immortality can hinge on specific conditions like divine laws, as long as these conditions dictate the character's continued existence.
• • Misconception : "Other characters have Type 8 Immortality for more significant reasons":
    • Rebuttal: The significance of the condition varies from a series to other. In Dragon Ball, divine law is a significant condition fitting the established criteria for Type 8 Immortality.
• • In Conclusion:
    
    Given the evidence and definitions, it's clear that the angels in DB qualify for Type 8 Immortality. Their existence is inherently tied to the divine laws they must follow, otherwise, they'd get erased and yeah that's it.

Agree (mods will be written in bold) : @omegabronic @RenderGK @Eseseso @Livinmeme @LuffyRuffy46307 @Killerdrone123 @LordDestroit10K @AwkguyDB @Greatsage13th @Hasty12345 @RoninSlayer200 @Gilad_Hyperstar @DarkDragonMedeus @ChoursDropoff
Disagree:
Neutral: @Robo432343





♣ Grand Priest’s Unique Powers (Manga)



1. Immortality Type 8 Negation

The Grand Priest enforces a rule that if angels break their divine code, they get erased from existence. This shows he has the power to negate their immortality. For example, he erased Merus temporarily to save him from permanent erasure. This special case demonstrates his control over the erasure process, proving he can override their immortality based on these rules.








The rule that angels get erased if they break their code is a core part of their existence. The Grand Priest can create, enforce, and change this rule, showing he can negate their immortality by altering these fundamental laws. Additionally, after erasing Merus, the Grand Priest brought him back as a mortal. This ability to change an angel’s form shows he can override the usual rules of their immortality, and that gets us to the second proposed ability!


Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree:

Neutral:




2. Law Manipulation

The Grand Priest creates and enforces laws that all angels must follow, like staying neutral and not fighting. These laws apply to all angels in every universe. He can change these laws, as seen when he temporarily erased Merus and then resurrected him as a mortal. This shows he has the power to change or bypass the rules he enforces.



The Grand Priest’s consistent enforcement of these rules across all universes shows his high level of authority and control over these laws. In the manga, characters like Whis and the Grand Priest explain that these rules are essential to the angels' existence. This shows that the Grand Priest can manipulate these laws.


Edit: Omega's proposal regarding the angels' weakness.

Furthermore, it is important to note that the angels have a specific weakness tied to their existence: they can't engage in fights outside of training. If they do, they are erased from existence.

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[RedReaper616]

• Misconception : "Angels can be killed by other means":
  • Rebuttal: There is no canonical evidence suggesting other means to kill angels, reinforcing their dependency on divine law for immortality.

The Grand Priest literally uses his powers to erase Merus, though. However, I will admit the way it’s worded implies that the breaking of rules themselves were to destroy him, and he even says he “had” to temporarily erase Merus to then enact his changes and save him (as restoring his existence wouldn’t have worked, implying it IS a fundamental part of them in some way/not breaking the rules can’t be re-tried nor can you get your infraction revoked). Either way, The GP stands in opposition to this point.

 

[AizenBankai09]

The Grand Priest enforcing the law doesn’t change the fact that the law itself is what causes angels to be erased if they break it.

He’s just making sure the rules are followed, the manga clearly states that breaking the angelic rules leads to their erasure. It’s not just a choice by the Grand Priest; it’s a built-in consequence of the law, the Grand Priest had to erase Merus temporarily to change and save him, showing that the laws are a fundamental part of an angel’s existence. The erasure was necessary because of the laws, not just because the Grand Priest decided to do it.

Edit:I'm gonna have to sleep now and I'll check on everything when I wake up! ( a cup of coffee fixed everything)

The Grand Priest literally uses his powers to erase Merus, though. However, I will admit the way it’s worded implies that the breaking of rules themselves were to destroy him, and he even says he “had” to temporarily erase Merus to then enact his changes and save him (as restoring his existence wouldn’t have worked, implying it IS a fundamental part of them in some way/not breaking the rules can’t be re-tried nor can you get your infraction revoked). Either way, The GP stands in opposition to this point.

 

[RedReaper616]

The Grand Priest enforcing the law doesn’t change the fact that the law itself is what causes angels to be erased if they break it.

He’s just making sure the rules are followed, the manga clearly states that breaking the angelic rules leads to their erasure. It’s not just a choice by the Grand Priest; it’s a built-in consequence of the law, the Grand Priest had to erase Merus temporarily to change and save him, showing that the laws are a fundamental part of an angel’s existence. The erasure was necessary because of the laws, not just because the Grand Priest decided to do it.

Edit:I'm gonna have to sleep now and I'll check on everything when I wake up!

I feel like you’re misunderstanding what I mean. I agree that the law itself is the death sentence, not an enforcer of that law. I’m saying, though, the fact that the GP can kill Angels is a knock against the point of “no one can kill Angels.”

 

[Greatsage13th]

Hmm

 

[AizenBankai09]

I feel like you’re misunderstanding what I mean. I agree that the law itself is the death sentence, not an enforcer of that law. I’m saying, though, the fact that the GP can kill Angels is a knock against the point of “no one can kill Angels.”

No, no I totally get what you mean by that but, the GP enforcing the law doesn't mean he can kill angels whenever he wants. It's the breaking of the divine laws that leads to their erasure, not the gp's personal decision. He's just the one who makes sure the rules are followed. So, no one can kill an angel unless they break these specific rules

 

[omegabronic]

just to say, this would only affect Merus and Manga Grand Priest as the information about both of those things come from the DBS Manga and not the anime

 

[CryoTheMayo]

For sake of my own understanding I believe Aizen is saying that when Merus (Angels) break their law they can then be erased from existence but until they have broken that law they cannot die. So when Merus broke the law, the Grand Priest stepped in to erase him temporarily before he could be permanently erased by the law itself then brought him back as a mortal as a loophole.

 

[AizenBankai09]

just to say, this would only affect Merus and Manga Grand Priest as the information about both of those things come from the DBS Manga and not the anime

I'm completely aware of that!

 

[omegabronic]

I'm completely aware of that!

good......then i have no problems with it

 

[AizenBankai09]

good......then i have no problems with it

Thank you so much, I really appreciate it!

 

[RenderGK]

For sake of my own understanding I believe Aizen is saying that when Merus (Angels) break their law they can then be erased from existence but until they have broken that law they cannot die. So when Merus broke the law, the Grand Priest stepped in to erase him temporarily before he could be permanently erased by the law itself then brought him back as a mortal as a loophole.

If this reasoning makes sense, it turns out that Merus broke the law and was disappearing.

If he broke the law, then GP could intervene and save Merus, erasing him himself, just as GP said, if Meerus had been completely erased by the law, it would be impossible for GP to bring him back.

 

[RenderGK]

Well, I agreed with this for now.

 

[Eseseso]

Sure.

 

[Livinmeme]

Yeah I agree

 

[Thelastmlg]

i was doubting it but the explanation that GP was the one that erased him before the law took place, so while i agree that the law protects them so long as they follow it, the wording of the law in both scans implies that it either only protects them from existence erasure or they can't be erased by anything in the verse outside of it, it does not imply that they can't be killed without breaking the law, just not erased

 

[RenderGK]

i was doubting it but the explanation that GP was the one that erased him before the law took place, so while i agree that the law protects them so long as they follow it, the wording of the law in both scans implies that it either only protects them from existence erasure or they can't be erased by anything in the verse outside of it, it does not imply that they can't be killed without breaking the law, just not erased

Well, as such, Goku himself says that he thought angels couldn't die.

and whis confirms that the only way, the only way is to eradicate them from existence, and that is by breaking their laws.

confirming Goku's words, that angels cannot die

then this would confirm that they cannot be killed by methods other than their laws.

this could imply that GP can negate those laws and control them at will

 

[AizenBankai09]

i was doubting it but the explanation that GP was the one that erased him before the law took place, so while i agree that the law protects them so long as they follow it, the wording of the law in both scans implies that it either only protects them from existence erasure or they can't be erased by anything in the verse outside of it, it does not imply that they can't be killed without breaking the law, just not erased

The argument that the Grand Priest erased Merus before the law took place misses the point. The law itself is what ties their existence to their immortality. The scan clearly states that angels who break the rules are erased from existence. This implies that as long as they follow the rules, they are protected from any form of erasure or death. The protection isn't just against erasure but against any harm that would lead to their erasure, also him enforcing the law doesn’t change the fact that it's the law itself that erases angels if they break it.





As soon as he tapped into his angelic power he started vanishing.


The gp just ensures the rules are followed, as the manga states that breaking the angelic rules leads to their erasure. This isn't a choice by the Grand Priest; it’s a built-in consequence of the law. The GP had to erase Merus temporarily to change and save him, showing that these laws are fundamental to an angel’s existence




Also him enforcing the law doesn't mean he can kill angels whenever he wants. It's the breaking of the divine laws that leads to their erasure, not the GP's personal decision. He's just the one who makes sure the rules are followed. So, no one can kill an angel unless they break these specific rules

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't think the law is really a universal concept or law, but rather something enacted by the GP, as in a man-made structure or decision, so something that doesn't really exist.

 

[AizenBankai09]

The law concerning angels in Dragon Ball isn't just a "man-made" rule; it's a fundamental part of their existence and nature as created by the Grand Priest. The scans specifically show that breaking these laws results in getting erased, which indicates that these laws are intrinsic to their being. The Grand Priest compelling these rules doesn't make them less real or less integral to the angels' nature. The laws are what maintain the angels' immortality and existence, making them more than just arbitrary decisions.

So, dismissing the laws as being "man-made" overlooks their essential role in defining the very essence and immortality of the angels.

I don't think the law is really a universal concept or law, but rather something enacted by the GP, as in a man-made structure or decision, so something that doesn't really exist.

 

[Hasty12345]

Seems fine at a glance

 

[SamanPatou]

The law concerning angels in Dragon Ball isn't just a "man-made" rule; it's a fundamental part of their existence and nature as created by the Grand Priest. The scans specifically show that breaking these laws results in getting erased, which indicates that these laws are intrinsic to their being. The Grand Priest compelling these rules doesn't make them less real or less integral to the angels' nature. The laws are what maintain the angels' immortality and existence, making them more than just arbitrary decisions.

So, dismissing the laws as being "man-made" overlooks their essential role in defining the very essence and immortality of the angels.

Is there any indication that this law is a universal costant, rather than being a byproduct of the GP having pretty good ESP and actively erase anyone whom he perceives is breaking the rule? Since we have direct evidence of him enacting the erasure, it's seems that he performs a conscious action rather than him having imposed a rule on reality.

Also, nothing says this rule protects them, they need to be erased from existence but who knows that high enough EE can't kill them?

 

[AizenBankai09]

Is there any indication that this law is a universal costant, rather than being a byproduct of the GP having pretty good ESP and actively erase anyone whom he perceives is breaking the rule? Since we have direct evidence of him enacting the erasure, it's seems that he performs a conscious action rather than him having imposed a rule on reality.

Also, nothing says this rule protects them, they need to be erased from existence but who knows that high enough EE can't kill them?

The scans show that the erasure law for angels isn't just a decision by the Grand Priest but a fundamental part of their existence. When angels break the law, they vanish from existence, indicating this rule is built into their very being. The Grand Priest compels this rule, but that doesn't mean he created it; he just has the authority to apply it.

This law protects angels by making them immune to erasure as long as they follow the rules. The only time they face erasure is when they break these laws, showing that their existence is tied to these rules. Hence, EE can't affect them if they haven't broken the law, reinforcing their type 8 immortality.

(so y'all I'll be sleeping, probably won't wake up any time soon and when I wake up I'll respond to all the oppositions hopefully there won't be any sooo gn)

 

[Livinmeme]

Is there any indication that this law is a universal costant, rather than being a byproduct of the GP having pretty good ESP and actively erase anyone whom he perceives is breaking the rule? Since we have direct evidence of him enacting the erasure, it's seems that he performs a conscious action rather than him having imposed a rule on reality.

Also, nothing says this rule protects them, they need to be erased from existence but who knows that high enough EE can't kill them?

GP had to pull a logical loop, to resurrect him, implying that yes, its an universal law, also the angel dude was literally starting to disintegrate after he broke the rules,

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[Killerdrone123]

Seems reasonable I agree with it

 

[LordDestroit10K]

I’m agreeing with the thread

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agreed

 

[AizenBankai09]

I agree

Seems reasonable I agree with it

I’m agreeing with the thread

I agree

Agreed

Thank you guys for participating!

 

[RenderGK]

Well, can someone call more staff so that this thread ends.

 

[AizenBankai09]

Bump

 

[AizenBankai09]

Bump

 

[StekFence]

I can get behind it being a universal law, but (and maybe I just missed it) what actually implies that they could not be killed otherwise by idk, Zeno or smth. It seems possible to me that Angels just are more durable then 99% of what anything in super can output. And also WILL die if they break this law.

 

[Vietthai96]

I can get behind it being a universal law, but (and maybe I just missed it) what actually implies that they could not be killed otherwise by idk, Zeno or smth. It seems possible to me that Angels just are more durable then 99% of what anything in super can output. And also WILL die if they break this law.

Unlike Zeno who is stated to be above everyone which implied his power is the top, Angel have completely different statements as they are stated to be can't be killed by any means. Whis stated that the only way to remove angel from existence is erase them, so what you think is, no offend, headcanon

 

[AizenBankai09]

I can get behind it being a universal law, but (and maybe I just missed it) what actually implies that they could not be killed otherwise by idk, Zeno or smth. It seems possible to me that Angels just are more durable then 99% of what anything in super can output. And also WILL die if they break this law.

Unlike the anime it was never stated that they could get erased by EE from Zeno but rather the law if I'm not mistaken, back in the tournament of power the angels were excluded from the erasure and even when Zamasu traveled to the other universes to kill the kais there, the G.O.Ds were dead so the angels were inactive until another G.O.D takes the other's place so we don't have an actual clue that Zeno erased them, and then later on Whis confirms that the only way to eradicate an angel is by breaking the angel law.

 

[Robo432343]

neutral

 

[RedReaper616]

I can get behind it being a universal law, but (and maybe I just missed it) what actually implies that they could not be killed otherwise by idk, Zeno or smth. It seems possible to me that Angels just are more durable then 99% of what anything in super can output. And also WILL die if they break this law.

That’s what I was trying to point out earlier. The GP erases Merus separately from that law specifically to save him. Ergo, they can be erased. Even if only temporarily.

 

[AizenBankai09]

That’s what I was trying to point out earlier. The GP erases Merus separately from that law specifically to save him. Ergo, they can be erased. Even if only temporarily.

Well first, as the manga shows the GP temporarily erased Merus "during" the law's erasure and that doesn't mean that the law itself is insignifant. Moreover, it shows how that the GP qualifies to immortality type 8 negation and that he can interrupt the law itself .

Shown here Merus during the fight with Moro, he started to use his angelic power for the sake of the universe, and in the same panel he started vanishing, due to it being against the law.







In chapter 67, the GP himself claims that breaking those rules, would result in vanishing from existence forever, therefore he had to interrupt the erasure and he himself erased Merus temporarily before resurrecting him, also he mentioned that getting rid of his angelic powers was the only way to save him, so he resurrected him as a mere mortal as a loop hole.

 

[AizenBankai09]

Bump