Android 17 and Frieza Downgrade/Key Removal

[Peter1129]

I did say I was gonna make a CRT about this a while back so here it is. So let's just get to the point.

Android 17 and Frieza should have their At least 3-A key removed. Currently the reason they even have this key is because they fought Jiren after he's gotten over his issues and because of Goku's statement of them going past their limits.

However Frieza and 17 being able to keep up with this Jiren alongside Post-UI Base Goku is an outlier. Literally right before this they were struggling to keep the barrier they put up against Jiren's energy wave. Frieza even used up his Golden form trying to maintain it. In the end it required Post-UI Base Goku to step in and erect another barrier to save them after their barrier shattered.

Now moving on to Goku's "We've all gone well beyond our limits already" statement. So first of all this is more likely referring to their stamina rather than power. Right after Goku's line about them going past their limits he told Frieza if they don't work together and fight, Universe 7 will be erased. Literally nothing in this scene implies they got stronger. It sounds more like Goku is telling Frieza they have all gone past their stamina limits and they won't last against Jiren unless they work together.

Tldr 17 and Frieza keeping up with Jiren after he has gotten past his issues is an outlier because they were shown to be much weaker than Post-UI Base Goku and this Jiren in their stronger forms a few seconds prior to this. So unless the two of them miraculously got stronger in a few seconds after the short talk they had with Goku they should be downgraded.

But hey look on the bright side is Frieza is probably going to become Low 2-C in the Broly movie.

 

[Peter1129]

Bump

 

[BlackeJan]

May the heaven guides us....cause this will be a Bloodbath....

 

[Udlmaster]

You have invoked the Wrath of a Hateful G╠Âo╠Âd╠ Fandom

 

[Peter1129]

I know I was a bit hesitant when I made this thread. Cause I know how bad the fans on the site are when they see a downgrade. But my next Dragon Ball thread will be an upgrade. Although it's probably gonna be an even bigger storm than this thread considering the topic.

 

[Huesito88]

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Yeah, this is gonna cause a storm. I can feel it in my bones...

On the serious side, I will be honest in the fact that I never really agreed with giving 17 or Frieza that upgrade. I also agree that Goku's statement is flimsy. It's really up to interpertation. He could be talking about them getting stronger or he could be talking about their stamina given how much they (him, 17 and Frieza) have been through. I'm inclined to believe the latter rather than the former given everything that happened.

As such, I agree with removal/downgrade, for what that's worth.

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

Alternatively Goku doesn't know shit about Frieza and Android 17's limits.


One has infinite stamina and the other can live in space. One joined with Jiren and defeated him and the other Won the tournament.

 

[AKM sama]

No storm here...

I never really agreed with "At least" rating. Jiren was beaten up pretty bad and became weak to the point that even a tired and weakened base Goku and base Freeza were able to take him on.

Sure Jiren received a boost after he got over his issues but it just gave him enough strength to put up a fight again after he was on his knees and admitted defeat. And I agree with Peter's interpretation of Goku's statement too.

 

[Peter1129]

This is going far smoother than I thought. Kinda surprised there isn't a storm 24 hours in. Maybe my next upgrade thread will go smoothly as well.

 

[BlackeJan]

@AKM

Well Goku did say that with all 3 of them there, he felt that they still wouldn't be able to take him on I mean if u think about it all Goku and Frieza did was use their maximum power to just drag him out of bounds....though now I'm confused....if Golden Frieza + A17 couldn't hold back the barrier...how does Post MUI (Fatigued) Base Goku able to stop the blast....unless....

 

[Peter1129]

After using the Third UIS and the Complete UI Goku's base form became stronger than 17 and Golden Frieza combined even while he's in a weakened state. Which shouldn't be that big of a surprise considering how big the previous boosts were with just UIS.

 

[BlackeJan]

^^

Alright. I thought that people would consider that an outlier or PIS but if others agree I can go along with it

 

[Peter1129]

This shouldn't be considered an outlier for Goku. This is Post-UI Base Goku's only feat and we know he gets massively stronger each time he enters UIS. Frieza and 17 keeping up with him is an outlier due to them being shown to be weaker than both Goku and Jiren in a stronger form just a few seconds prior.

 

[Greatone22]

**** no.

 

[BlackeJan]

Hmm...well as I think about it now...A17/Frieza could had gotten stronger (I honestly don't know how) but for Frieza to be able to take Jiren down with him by himself (try and drag him out of bounds) and him and Goku hitting Jiren at the same time and it caused him damaged + A17 doing damage on Jiren with his ki blast does show that they somehow broke their own limits too. It's just that the fact is Base Goku is stronger then them but that wouldn't mean that they didn't get stronger as well (just not remotely close to Goku PL right now)

 

[DMB_1]

**** no.

Greatest Argument

But seriously, at least explain why you disagree.

 

[Peter1129]

@BlackeJan Right after Jiren got over his issues he overpowered both Golden Frieza and Android 17. So unless you believe both of them got stronger after their talk with Goku they should be downgraded. Cause it makes no sense for Base Frieza to be stronger than his Golden form which was overpowered by Jiren just a couple of seconds ago.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

I don't have an issue with 'At least 3-A' Base Goku, he was clearly portrayed as being stronger than 17 and Golden Frieza at the end of the ToP.

'At least 3-A' 17 and Golden Frieza seems to me like it was a compromise for the benefit of the large number of people (myself included if we're being honest) who were arguing for a straight Low 2-C for both of them post-ToP. The two having that rating isn't crazy IMO but the current justification is insufficient.

I'm neutral on removing the keys right away but only because there is a movie coming out very very soon which will lead to many profiles being updated and at least in Frieza's case, the fight vs Jiren at the end of the ToP may end up being justifiable as supporting evidence for an upgrade/new key given more legit scaling.

 

[Peter1129]

@Endless Astrograph Sorcerer Nobody is going to have at least 3-A after this not even Post-UI Goku who's base form is stronger than his SSBKK at the start of the tournament which would still just be 3-A.

Frieza is potentially becoming Low 2-C in the movie because he trained in between the tournament and the movie. Not because of what's happened at the end of the tournament which contradicts his previous power. It would just mean Frieza is going to have a Broly Arc key and not a Limit Break key.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Peter

Then yes thy could had just broken their limits simply from trying to stand against Jirens attack that could had pushed a little beyond their PL. Now don't say that Base Frieza became stronger then his Golden Form since he's not fighting by himself but has Goku and A17 backing him up.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

@Peter I'm just giving my opinion on Base Goku's power post-ToP. He doesn't even have an 'At least 3-A' key right now. I'm well aware of the significance of off-screen training but Frieza isn't like Goku and Vegeta; unless it's stated that he was training, we can't really assume that. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure we only know of two instances of Frieza training: 1) to prepare to fight a vastly stronger Goku in RoF, 2) image training in hell to keep him sane.

 

[Peter1129]

@Endless Astrograph Sorcerer One of the Broly movie summaries or leaks or whatever it was said something about Frieza posing a threat to Post-ToP Goku and Vegeta. So yeah he's potentially Low 2-C in the movie.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

@Peter I'm aware that he's going to pose a threat going forward. I'm specifically saying that we can't assume he was training.

 

[Peter1129]

@Endless Astrograph Sorcerer I mean there was also a line that said Frieza showed particular growth and something about him wanting to be at the top. Which seems to imply he has been training after the tournament. But we'll see when the movie drops.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

@Peter that's fair, I either wasn't aware of or didn't recall that. And yup, all will be clear when we see the film...probably lol

 

[PaChi2]

Not that I care about this, but the previous thread should be addressed because it was a very long dicussio, and I feel the db profiles are overly revised for little to no gain. Like in this thread.

 

[BlackeJan]

Tbh I always thought they were already in Low 2-C after the Fused Zamasu arc and all since SSBKK Goku damaged Fused Zamasu and his Kamehameha was able to break through during their beam struggle

 

[Peter1129]

Only Infinite Zamasu is Low 2-C. His other forms are just 3-A. Also Goku hurting Fusion Zamasu with SSBKK is like an huge outlier considering how they were stomped by Post-Scythe Goku Black who was stated to be the strongest non fusion or god character during the Future Trunks Saga.

 

[Peter1129]

Bump

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So, here's my thing. Post-UI Goku's feat has to be an outlier; or you're trying to say Jiren's resurgence in power still made him much weaker than he was than when he fought Hit or first UIO Goku, when no one present seemdd to think so after he'd gotten over his issues.

 

[Peter1129]

This is a Frieza and 17 doesn't scale to Jiren after getting over his issues because it's an outlier for them thread. Not what tier Jiren after getting over his issue is thread.

 

[Gelan06]

I agree with this Jiren only got the power to fight a little more but he wanst nearly his normal strength and goku problably was talking about stamina

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

Umm ok so this... is kinda funny

So Post UI base SSJBKKX20 Goku, SSJBE Vegeta, Android 17 all took combined efforts to fight a more serious Jiren who in turn was only hit/attacked by 17 himself succesfully.

I won't be posting links to any of what I'm going to say hopefully you watched the series anyway.

Jiren was also showed that being hit again wasn't gonna happen and it resulted in #17 nearly dying and Goku and Vegeta barley hanging on. Also Jiren was attacked and momentarily on the defensive against an enraged Freiza (Post Toppo owning) while not being out of stamina.

Also Freiza even though recived quite the rest during the tournament came out of a beating from the main three. One of them becoming a GoD for a second, who was only holding back hax nothing else.

Frieza and #17 should definetly keep the at least 3-A, honestly #17 should scale above GFrieza

 

[Greatone22]

Yep. SSJGSSJKKX10 Goku was having an extremely hard time against Jiren, but 17 actually hit him. 17 being at least 3-A is fine.

 

[ByAsura]

I believe they explain that Jiren was unguarded when he was hurt by that attack. Also, that'd still be an outlier, since the Jiren here was still powerful enough to easily beat a Vegeta that was still described as able to defeat GoD Toppo.

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

I believe they explain that Jiren was unguarded when he was hurt by that attack.

And I along with the story when they tried it again explained why this was debunked

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

Also Jiren was warned of the attack before it happened as he turned to face #17 as he had the attack ready I've seen people who were considerably weaker than the attacker in DB react to things like this

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I believe they explain that Jiren was unguarded when he was hurt by that attack.

He was.

Also, in DB if you drop your guard or are caught off guard, you can be hurt by stuff or people a lot weaker than you. Sorbet blasting Goku, anyone?

 

[ByAsura]

@Grim

Goku was still knocked out by Vegeta's attack in the Buu Saga and Cell still broke SS2 Gohan's arm, despite them doing the same. They literally say he's unguarded, so he's unguarded. Goku is also confident that the three can coordinate their attacks to achieve the same result.

I'm not going to go into anymore though. I don't want to turn this into something else.