Android 17 and Frieza Downgrade/Key Removal

[Grimreaperofjustice]

Don't have to the only valid case was the Goku, Vegeta thing since Goku was completley unduarded. Whereas Gohan protected Vegeta and fully braced for that attack. They also "Thought" they could coordinate that attack, even if he was "unguarded" he sustained injury (minimal) from this and was well aware of the attack. This would make 17# comparable to a serious Jiren.

 

[Greatone22]

What the hell kinda logic is that? so if you're not "guarded" you become infinitely weaker? jiren went from having low 2-C durability to 3-A durability because he wasn't guarded? i hope you know that the difference between 3-A and low 2-C is more than infinite.

 

[ByAsura]

@Great

They don't treat it that way in Dragon Ball.

@Grim

I looked again, turns out I was thinking of the anime scene instead of the manga. Then why did his arm get broken against a weaker opponent? He probably though he could avoid it and save Vegeta, and he says right after that Cell's power is higher than he thought.

It doesn't matter that they thought they could do this, they were going to do it because they found Jiren could be taken off guard and harmed. Again, a massive outlier, since Jiren stated the SBE Vegeta was fighting could beat GoD Toppo.

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

Usually they do it for comedic relife when they drop someones durability otherwise it's usually when their guard is down entirley. Jiren was never entirley off guard, and it's only a outlier if it was not repeated or wayyyyy out of the charecters depth. Such as Krillin harming Frieza, Gohan slapping 3rd form Frieza and if I recall final form Frieza out of rage, B╠Âu╠Âr╠Ât╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Âb╠Âe╠Âi╠Ân╠Âg╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âe╠ ╠Âf╠Âa╠Âs╠Ât╠Âe╠Âs╠Ât╠ ╠Âi╠Ân╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âe╠ ╠ÂU╠ÂN╠ÂI╠ÂV╠ÂE╠ÂR╠ÂS╠ÂE╠Â!╠Â

But on a serious note, this cannot be considered an outlier we see #17 contending with two people on low 2-C level. Toppo and Jiren. Maybe he wasn't slapping them and even blame it on nerf if you want he still was contending therefore comparable and can be argued low 2-C so at least 3-A is the LEAST you can do. SSJB Vegeta slapped a casual Jiren so this is also something you cannot use (who at this point is low-2-C btw whereas Vegeta was still considered 3-A). Blame it on bad writing, nerfs, or even strategy but either way this isn't an outlier.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree that Jiren was aware of what was happening and not completely off guard. Toppo was stated to have power far exceeding them by the narrator and said that he was holding back to not kill base Frieza so he wouldn't be disqualified, possibly meaning he also wasn't going all out against 17.




17 is usually on par with Universe level characters, whether or not this is Blue level characters take your pick, but it usually falls between Base Goku (while 17 is suppressed) to SSB, depending on his use of forcefields. Jiren there was stated to be faster and stronger against Goku, so he might not have been Low 2-C.

I think we can agree to disagree on this matter though. It is derailing the thread after all and has been rejected everytime it was brought up.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So, not sure what really went on here.

Anyway, I'm neutral about this, but want to here what other staff members think. It is true that At least 3-A seems pretty iffy, and that 17 and Frieza were never even close to Jiren's level till after he was totally depleted from fighting UIM Goku. Agreed on waiting till the next scenario before upgrading Frieza to Tier 2 also.

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

Frieza and 17 are in Serious Jiren tier which is above casual Jiren tier which is a still 3-A.


I don't see any reason for a downgrade from 3-a for two of the more high tier super characters especially when the margin of 3-A is so low.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@InfiniteBlack Jiren is Low 2-C scaling from being far superior to Infinite Zamasu though, what are you talking about? Anyway, Android 17 and Frieza never really scaled from Jiren to begin with, since they never fought on par with him until he was depleted. Also, 3-A is an infinite sized tier; difference between 3-A and High 3-A is a countable Infinity. So what does low margin even mean?

Anyway, 17 and Frieza would still be 3-A scaling from base Goku, who is already extremely casual into 3-A. So it's not a huge deal.

 

[Antvasima]

It would probably be good if you message the staff members who took part in the old thread to comment here. I think that Matthew and Kepekley23 were involved for example.

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

To be honest that scaling already seems wierd, Jiren shouldn't scale far beyond infinite Zamasu because, it is unknown if Jiren is actually above infinite Zamasu. Especially since no one but Zeno actually beat MZamasu.

 

[ByAsura]

This has been discussed so many times. Jiren has been stated to hit the hardest, have the most energy, and be the strongest enemy character by everyone in that arc, including people who were there to see Infinite Zamasu say this, like Goku, Vegeta, and Supreme Kai, not to mention people who sensed his energy in the main timeline, like Beerus and Whis.

Even the episode synopsis (which also says he has unthinkably large Ki) and writers say he's the strongest. And note that almost all of this is while he's either not even using a fraction of a power that is described as not even being a hint of his true strength or just holding back a lot.

To say they didn't include Infinite Zamasu is ridiculous, as he was literally the villain 1 arc ago and the events are canonically only a year apart.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Please don't use long quotes, and we discussed that segment multiple times. Beerus and Whis sensed Infinite Zamasu's power level and wasn't impressed at all, where as Jiren's power level scared the crap out of Beerus. Casual Jiren still has a super casual High 3-A feat.

Anyway, I'll ask Matt and Kep; Dark649 is also quite knowledgeable on this topic.

 

[Dark649]

I'm neutral about this, Jiren was clearly heavily weakened by the beatdown from MUI Goku.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think Post UI beatdown Jiren was Low 2-C

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Never said depleted Jiren was, just responding to InfiniteBlack's comment as he sounded as if "Jiren shouldn't be Low 2-C at all." Obviously 17, Frieza, and Base Goku are just 3-A for sure.

 

[Peter1129]

Why do people keep being up Jiren? This isn't a what tier Jiren after the beatdown is thread. It's a Frieza and 17 should have their At least 3-A key removed because it's an outlier for them thread.

 

[BlackeJan]

Jiren though performed and EXTREMELY CASUAL Low 2-C with the Void shaking right + he had Beerus crapped his pants with just his presence alone. I honestly think they r Low 2-C regardless I mean we can't just assume that he went from Low 2-C to 3-A when getting beat up especially when he gotten over his issue

What I'm saying is that is not really fair to assume that he's 3A after beatdown but also wouldn't be fair to assume he would still be Low 2-C either. Th only reason I think he's still Low 2C cause of him being extremely casual in LITERALLY the entire arc + he broke his limit so what's not to say Post MUI would had him right back to his original full power?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Keep the topic on Frieza and 17; Jiren or Zamasu is a derailment as mentioned numerous times throughout this thread.

 

[PaChi2]

Keep the topic on Frieza and 17; Jiren or Zamasu is a derailment as mentioned numerous times throughout this thread.

^

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think Post UI beatdown Jiren was Low 2-C

He wasn't.

Let's recap:

Here Freeza directly says that post UI beatdown Jiren is weaker than before. This is also confirmed since Golden Freeza and Android 17, two 3-A characters are able to keep up with him. Hence making Jiren 3-A.

Here Freeza again taunts Jiren on his shattered strength.

Then Jiren is beaten even more and is on his knees, admitting defeat. He doesn't have the strength, stamina or will to keep going. But after the pep talk from Toppo, Jiren received a boost which made him able to fight again.

Now how much of a boost was this? People who assume this made Jiren Low 2-C again, generally go by what Vegeta and Gohan said:

"It looks like Jiren's gotten over his issues!"

And he did, that's why he received a boost. It doesn't tell us how big the boost was.

"An amazing amount of energy is gathering in Jiren!"

Yes, it was. It just means Jiren is getting an arbitrary big boost. And he did, while he was tired, weakened and incapable of combat just seconds earlier, the boost made him capable of fighting 3 characters again and that's "an amazing boost". Doesn't mean he became Low 2-C again.

So how do we find the magnitude of the boost? Simple. By feats.
Jiren became capable of fighting a weakened Android 17 (a 3-A character who had repeatedly blown himself up at this point), base Freeza (who is weaker than his Golden form, which itself was 3-A just moments ago) and a very tired and weakened base Goku who barely stood up to fight and couldn't even go ssj (another 3-A character).

Fighting three 3-A characters makes Jiren 3-A. Nothing more.

 

[AKM sama]

And Goku's statement of:

"We've all gone well beyond our limits already. If we don't work together and fight, U7 is gonna be erased."

Means exactly what Peter said in the OP. They've all gone beyond their limits (of stamina), they've done everything in their power. The only way to survive now is by working together.

So "At least 3-A" Freeza and 17 for fighting Jiren should go.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes. Just 3-A is more than enough. Downgrade them now.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Simply put: the more you think about it, the more you analyze it, the less sense it makes for 17 and Frieza being "At least 3-A".

The fact is, Frieza and 17 never had a clear moment of getting stronger and the only thin you could really to use support the notion would be Goku's statement mentioned in the OP. Everyone else in the ToP that got stronger then they previously were had some kind of moment or transformation:

Goku- Ultra Instinct Sign & Mastered.

Vegeta- Super Saiyan Blue Evolution.

Jiren- Limit Breaker.

Toppo- God of Destruction.

Etc.

I don't get why 17 and Frieza suddenly get a pass based of a single statement despite the mentioned factors that contradict it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

You might have to handle it yourself, given that the pages are likely locked.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, doing it now.

 

[Peter1129]

Thanks Matt. Now we just need to close the thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Doing so.