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Analyzing the Tiering System

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"There is also the argument that, since, a higher-dimensional object possess an infinite number of slices of lower-dimensional objects within itself, then they are necessarily infinitely larger than them, and as a consequence of that, you can't really stack up lower-dimensional objects to get yourself a higher-dimensional one."

"The latter (The above argument) is also intuitively accurate, but not so much diving deeper into it: Yes, you can't really stack up a lower-dimensional thing to get you a higher-dimensional thing, but this isn't really because the latter is infinitely bigger, rather it is because it has another direction through which its body can displace itself into."

"The lower-dimensional object can't actually displace itself in said direction because it doesn't exist to them. It's a matter of position, rather than size: 1 meter in an additional axis isn't really bigger than 2 meters in the other axis, the former is just inaccessible to the latter because it is displaced in another direction..."

With this analogy you are comparing two objects of the same dimensionality oriented in different dimensional axles. Not a meter to a square meter.

"...much like how west isn't infinitely far away from north because you can accelerate as far as you want in the direction of one and never reach the other..."

This is again comparing distance to distance.

"...or how one second of time isn't really bigger than the entire Universe. The distance between them can be better described as "undefined", rather than infinite."

Indeed. Being on a different axis doesn't make you bigger. But that has nothing to do with a cube vs a square.

Ok, I can buy into the "It's all uncountably infinite points" argument. But this part of the debunk didn't really convince me.
 
@Aogi That isn't really a problem tho, that's just a tier being very wide. Other tiers in tier 1 are also incredibly big but don't cause problems because one's exact placement within a tier can always be specified l, lower tiers also have large gaps, but to a lesser degree

The only real problem with 1-A was some being above 0s, which both methods will fix.

This is not even mentioning that a modifier is proposed to distinguish infinite and not infinite hierarchies in low 1-A
 
So many FCOC patrons coming together for this festive day.
 
I'm at work atm, but quick question, what if a verse has a cosmology showing its higher Dimensions are "like layers stacked with a greater one existing above this lower" how will something like that be rated?
 
Before giving my oppinion on this, I have to ask, what would happen to characters with "smurf" hax?
 
Smurfs will be mostly unaffected, I feel.
 
@Ion

If the hax is just stated to affect higher dimensions with no further context, I believe it'd just be treated as higher-dimensional manipulation, like in the case of The Hist. However there can still exist smurfs who affect infinitely higher spaces and whatnot.
 
That's a relief, I believed that was getting erased from what I heard some days ago. I say Yay and that I prefer Option 1, really helps to sort better our outerversal characters.
 
Depends on the smurfs feats and abilities, like Reinhards and Jill Prestos smurf hax should remain mostly uneffected outside maybe a change in the level its listed as/called.
 
I actually believe the otherwise, as the only abilities that could relate to dimensions are space, time and probability manipulation (and yet, it may only refer to range, not potency); other abilities like mind and soul manipulation do not relate to dimensions (they are immaterial), so simply gaining immunity to them by having extra dimensions its not valid.
 
Yeah, that's what I understood from the last comment. Mah man Reinhard will remain unbeatable.
 
Antoniofer said:
I actually believe the otherwise, as the only abilities that could relate to dimensions are space, time and probability manipulation (and yet, it may only refer to range, not potency); other abilities like mind and soul manipulation do not relate to dimensions (they are immaterial), so simply gaining immunity to them by having extra dimensions its not valid.
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Depends on the verse, since fiction has no real rules a writer can treat dimensions how they want, so that should be looked at and taken into consideration.
 
The verse will remain with their resistances, but simply having an extra dimension (in the conventional sense) wouldn't make you immune to mind/soul/concept manipulation coming from a 3d (or even a 2d) being.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
How would reality-fiction differences relate to these new systems?
Click to expand...
Reality-fiction and dimensions do not really have a relation ship, there's could be a cartoon withing a verse that isn't 2d (in fatc, most of these cases they aren't 2d, they just fictional).
 
TheVoidWalker69 said:
bip
Click to expand...
I feel I have to agree with Void's points. Especially since, merging three entire tiers (current 1-C, High 1-C & 1-B) could draw some problems on a few profiles.

Sure, option 1 would be far easier to handle, though I personally think accuracy matters most when possible. There's one or two flaws in it that have been already addressed, but the benefits within outweigh those little things, at least compared to the former.

With that said, I'm siding with option 2 for now.
 
Umineko has been under revisions for like, an eternity, but things will inevitably wrap up there at some point.
 
im sorry to invade ur thread with this question, but does the part about dimensionality mean that higher dimensional whatevers cover a different space than we do, physically? humans (and pretty much anything else that we know off that isnt an idea or concept) consists of 3 dimensions correct? but we percive said world in only 2, as far as i know. would that mean that 4 deminsional 'beings' percieve it as 3 dimensions?
 
Nepuko said:
Anyway the reason for me is that Option 1 is tiered even better than the 2. And by "tiering better", I'm referring to it also taking into account Infinite-Outerversal as its own category, like the current "High 1-B", as an exemple.

1-A was "too broad", and Option 1 can help more in categorizing it I believe.
Click to expand...
This is largely my view as well. I have long had a problem with that tier 1-A and above does not make consistent proper distinctions between very different degrees of hierarchies. This seems better able to fix that problem than option 2.

Perhaps it would help to convince others if Ultima provides a brief explanation about the new 3 subtiers of 1-C according to option 1?
 
Antoniofer said:
I believe that those times that dimensions refer to higher hierarchy and the beings there are extremely to infinite stronger its cuz these "dimensions" aren't dimensions in the physical sense (not in the way its explained above). It would be more like a higher plane of existence, that is not the same as extra-dimensional, and its more related to esoterism (like the Astral Plane of the Akashic Records).
Click to expand...
This is possible. Perhaps different instances have used the term "higher dimensions" in lack of better alternative terms to quickly describe what they mean?
 
Yeah, generally in fiction when people say dimension they means simply another place, either physical (most pocket dimensions and alternative universes) or metaphysical (afterlife and dreams), not refering to axis.

Some times, these "dimensions", may be localized outside space and time, although it do not means its inaccesible (like the christian heaven/hell that are refered as eternal in the philosophical sense), that I guess its the doubt DMB brought above.
 
Antoniofer said:
Yeah, generally in fiction when people say dimension they means simply another place, either physical (most pocket dimensions and alternative universes) or metaphysical (afterlife and dreams), not refering to axis.

Some times, these "dimensions", may be localized outside space and time, although it do not means its inaccesible (like the christian heaven/hell that are refered as eternal in the philosophical sense), that I guess its the doubt DMB brought above.
Click to expand...
And what if a verse does make note of a separate dimension with an additional axis?
 
i meant real life thoeries about it. in fiction, people say "im on a whole dimension now" and they mean it too, but nothing has even changed.

well time is an idea, and not an actual thing. if everything were to be stopped and nothing were to happen at all, time would still pass. seconds would keep going. but yeah, haven and hell do seem like the real life version for other dimensions.
 
Will a seperate thread be made to talk about how each Tier 1 verse will be effected and how they will be tiered?
 
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