All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[AguilaR202]

Some of those calcs are blatantly wrong, Cells Kamehamega can at most reach several 10,000 kms above earths surface within any given timeframe, we can clearly see the earth’s curvature on panel where it reaches space

The expansion speed of Cells Kamehameha ( which doesn’t happen) is at best a few single digits FTL (30 s) useless for scaling.

Genkidama energy gathering speed has no clear line of scaling to the characters

 

[Breadbear83]

Using Buu and Cell for speed calcs were rejected by staff

How the hell do they think a FTL+ and 4B character can even be a threat to the universe, in billions of years they still wouldn't destroy the universe if they are those tiers

 

[Hiryu-Z]

Using Buu and Cell for speed calcs were rejected by staff
Ginyu's body swap being SoL was rejected in this thread

The game was rigged from the start...

 

[ProudLearner]

The problem with Vs Battle Wiki is that, no matter how many Dragon Ball CRTs are passed, eventually, in two or three years, new staff will show up with a different interpretation and downgrade it.

 

[Robo432343]

The problem with Vs Battle Wiki is that, no matter how many Dragon Ball CRTs are passed, eventually, in two or three years, new staff will show up with a different interpretation and downgrade it.

thats what happens to every verse

 

[Omegabronic]

How the hell do they think a FTL+ and 4B character can even be a threat to the universe, in billions of years they still wouldn't destroy the universe if they are those tiers

Depends... why do we assume the two characters who are constantly hyped as growing exponetionally stronger over the course of their arcs would stagnate instead of simply... growing stronger and faster to do the feats?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Depends... why do we assume the two characters who are constantly hyped as growing exponetionally stronger over the course of their arcs would stagnate instead of simply... growing stronger and faster to do the feats?

How does this apply to Buu? He only got stronger by absorbing stronger people so ???

 

[Omegabronic]

How does this apply to Buu? He only got stronger by absorbing stronger people so ???

Including saiyans, who he gained the abilities of, including their rapidly growth in power

Fair for Kid Buu tho... but he DID have IT to teleport, so

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Including saiyans, who he gained the abilities of, including their rapidly growth in power

Did he? You'd think it would come up considering just how many times Buuhan gets eviscerated and comes back.

Saiyans growing passively is kinda a Super thing too, so it would have the same problem as the 50 year timeframe of Beerus waking up.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Including saiyans, who he gained the abilities of, including their rapidly growth in power

This is utter head canon, he didn't get a single zenkai after all the times he was blown up

 

[Omegabronic]

This is butter head canon, he didn't get a single zenkai after all the times he was blown up

... how do you know that? Why would he gain all the powers from the ones he biologivally absorbed... exept the one thing Saiyan Biology gives?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think even if he inherited Zenkai boosts, he'd never trigger it. Like I don't think the way his regen works lets him to be put in a near-death state.

 

[Omegabronic]

I think even if he inherited Zenkai boosts, he'd never trigger it. Like I don't think the way his regen works lets him to be put in a near-death state.

You do know Saiyans grow stronger rapidly regardless right?

Also... i don't see why his regen wouldn't allow it to trigger it? What's the difference between that and Cell's?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You do know Saiyans grow stronger rapidly regardless right?

Super retcon

Also... i don't see why his regen wouldn't allow it to trigger it? What's the difference between that and Cell's?

Cause if you punch Cell in the face, you're going to damage him. If you do the same to Buu, it's not doing anything. The way Buu's regen works it's all or nothing.

Also imagine how stupid Buucolo or Buuhan are if they all had to do to beat Gohan + Goku/Vegito is blowing themselves up a few times lol

 

[Omegabronic]

Super retcon

I wouldn't call newly revealed information "retcon" but like... I don't see your point? It retroactively applies? Also... Goten and Trunks got so much potential that they went Super Saiyan at 7 & 8 year olds without doing any hardcore training... pretty sure they would have it either way

Cause if you punch Cell in the face, you're going to damage him. If you do the same to Buu, it's not doing anything. The way Buu's regen works it's all or nothing.

Huh... no? If you do the same to Buu... he will receive the damage, then heal the Damage... he is not invulnerable

You just described how regeneration works, damage does nothing as you just heal up

Also imagine how stupid Buucolo or Buuhan are if they all had to do to beat Gohan + Goku/Vegito is blowing themselves up a few times lol

I mean... the fusion amp may just be that high i guess, not like he would be able to do that before they killed him for good anyway

 

[Mgebrat282]

Remember when Goku destroyed Hit's dimensions? It was stated to be made of timeskips he has made in different places and Hit did timeskips in Neutral Space, would that scale (after Goku black saga)Goku to Neutral Space?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I wouldn't call newly revealed information "retcon" but like... I don't see your point? It retroactively applies?

So then it's fine to use Elder Kai’s estimate of how long it’d take Beerus to wake up, a.k.a. Buutenks and Kid Buu would’ve destroyed the universe within 50 years tops.

Even in Super, Saiyans don’t passively grow stronger just by sitting on their ass or doing menial chores either, like they have to actually go out and fight comparable foes to get the super duper boosts, which Buu obviously wasn't going to find in his rampage.

Huh... no? If you do the same to Buu... he will receive the damage, then heal the Damage... he is not invulnerable

Cell still has to expend energy to regenerate and if he doesn't he just stays injured.
Buu can deform and pull his body parts off with no real harm to himself.

Even then, nothing indicates Cell got a Zenkai after Vegeta's Final Flash or Goku's Instant Kamehameha, so clearly something needs to almost kill him (He did say him surviving his Self-Destruct was a miracle) to even trigger it. Buu's regen is leagues better than Cell's, what's putting him at near-death lol

I mean... the fusion amp may just be that high i guess, not like he would be able to do that before they killed him for good anyway

Ultimate Gohan was weaker than x2 Super Buu, I really doubt Buu being able to spam SPC-esque Zenkais couldn't have breached that gap.

Not to mention, Elder Kai going "Hmmm, if I do a rough calculation based on how fast Saiyans get stronger over time (Something they're sooo know for we never even saw it pre-Super lol), Buu would exponentially grow strong enough to destroy the universe" is wayyy more of a reach than him just sensing Buutenks' power and going "Yup, we're doomed. He's destroying the universe."

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

The problem with Vs Battle Wiki is that, no matter how many Dragon Ball CRTs are passed, eventually, in two or three years, new staff will show up with a different interpretation and downgrade it.

Yeah and this is why the CRT system is fundamentally awful.
1. VSBW banning off-site arguments is just a sign VSBW wants to keep an echochamber instead of actually arguing. If your position is good you shouldn't have issues defending it in any place, any where, with the right preperation.
2. Truth is not based on consensus, but on validity and soundness. The very idea of starting a new CRT disproves the idea that truth is based on consensus because starting a new CRT is saying that the consensus is wrong.
3. The CRT system is hilariously abusable by mods. See the DKD debunk being unable to be addressed by its supporter who just locks the downgrade CRTs.
4. 99% of powerscalers (The vast majority of VSBW is part of the 99%) would get washed by someone who actually knows how to argue and analyze evidence. I construct my arguments to such a tight degree that arguing against them requires you perform logical contradictions, which of course means that the opposite position of mine is automatically wrong without exception.
tl;dr CRTs are bullshit so who cares if you 'lose' one, it has nothing to do with the strength of the arguments presented.

 

[Saqphire]

Yall will be fine. Jesus this constant ranting from ONE CRT doesn’t make yall look good at all

 

[RanHover60]

People would probably be a lot more sympathetic to us if we didn’t complain this much.

 

[Saqphire]

People would probably be a lot more sympathetic to us if we didn’t complain this much.

At least not like THIS. It’s been three days and people here have been crying like babies. Get a grip and get some feats and calcs accepted man

 

[TiltedFN]

Yall will be fine. Jesus this constant ranting from ONE CRT doesn’t make yall look good at all

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

At least not like THIS. It’s been three days and people here have been crying like babies. Get a grip and get some feats and accepted man

Nah we must tear the system down and feast upon the staff

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Should I take this as a provocation?

 

[Saqphire]

Nah we must tear the system down and feast upon the staff

You right, they made a grave offense nerfing the holy verse

Should I take this as a provocation?

Why?

 

[Qawsedf234]

1. VSBW banning off-site arguments is just a sign VSBW wants to keep an echochamber instead of actually arguing. If your position is good you shouldn't have issues defending it in any place, any where, with the right preperation.

Off-site arguments themselves are not banned. They just can't be the sole evidence of a CRT and have to be restated within the thread itself. The reason they're closed most of the time is the OP dropping a 1 hour power scaling video and asking people to watch, rather than take the video and explain it's points. Our rule on it is pretty clear:

Please refrain from creating content revision threads that consist solely of links to off-site sources (such as YouTube, Reddit, other VS forums, etc.) and have no discernible arguments of their own.

Truth is not based on consensus, but on validity and soundness. The very idea of starting a new CRT disproves the idea that truth is based on consensus because starting a new CRT is saying that the consensus is wrong.

While IRL this is true, the issue here is that we're dealing with fictional works that are inconsistent within themselves. Overtime how the general populace does power scaling also varies. You go back ten years and Marvel/DC cap out at Tier 4, Roshi's moon feat isn't accepted, and Kratos is like High 6-A. A CRT being passed means in that moment that idea of thinking because the accepted thinking for that particular area, but it's always subject to change.

The wiki isn't meant to be right forever, but a living system that can change.

3. The CRT system is hilariously abusable by mods. See the DKD debunk being unable to be addressed by its supporter who just locks the downgrade CRTs.

Are you talking about Staff Threads? Those are done primarily because it's controversial and when we don't do it the threads get flooded and derailed. They exist because the topic specifically draws a bunch of attention that can ruin the core of it. It is bias since the staff are ultimately smaller in number, but users are free to ask for permission and it's not barred for everyone.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Off-site arguments themselves are not banned. They just can't be the sole evidence of a CRT and have to be restated within the thread itself. The reason they're closed most of the time is the OP dropping a 1 hour power scaling video and asking people to watch, rather than take the video and explain it's points. Our rule on it is pretty clear:

Arguments are arguments. Restating an argument that has already been made adds nothing. This is a social rule, not a rule for truth.

While IRL this is true,

The same goes for fiction.

the issue here is that we're dealing with fictional works that are inconsistent within themselves. Overtime how the general populace does power scaling also varies. You go back ten years and Marvel/DC cap out at Tier 4, Roshi's moon feat isn't accepted, and Kratos is like High 6-A.

He still is

A CRT being passed means in that moment that idea of thinking because the accepted thinking for that particular area, but it's always subject to change.

None of this refutes my point: that truth is not dependent on consensus. You also haven't addressed the paradox: if consensus = truth, then going against the consensus = wrong, meaning any new CRT that goes against the consensus = automatically wrong.

Are you talking about Staff Threads? Those are done primarily because it's controversial and when we don't do it the threads get flooded and derailed. They exist because the topic specifically draws a bunch of attention that can ruin the core of it. It is bias since the staff are ultimately smaller in number, but users are free to ask for permission and it's not barred for everyone.

No, I was talking about when a mod decided to close down all Demon King Daimao downgrade threads without actually addressing the arguments.

 

[Damage3245]

None of this refutes my point: that truth is not dependent on consensus. You also haven't addressed the paradox: if consensus = truth, then going against the consensus = wrong, meaning any new CRT that goes against the consensus = automatically wrong.

Nobody argues that consensus = truth, because everybody knows that the consensus can change with new standards, new pieces of evidence, etc. The consensus is just practical and reasonable; so we're not subject to mob rule, or the whims of just a single individual either. We have a reasonable middle ground that can evolve in light of new information.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Nobody argues that consensus = truth,

Pretty sure that's what I saw here, and that's what CRTs imply (and also paradoxically don't).

because everybody knows that the consensus can change with new standards, new pieces of evidence, etc. The consensus is just practical and reasonable; so we're not subject to mob rule, or the whims of just a single individual either.

False dichotomy. The real options are either 'everyone makes their own profile because there is no truth' or 'get someone who actually knows how to analyze anything and argue to make all of the profiles, guided with knowledge of the source material.'
(and also constantly check people for nonsensical arguments (ban them if needed be for making horrible arguments))

We have a reasonable middle ground that can evolve in light of new information.

You don't.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

No, I was talking about when a mod decided to close down all Demon King Daimao downgrade threads without actually addressing the arguments.

Funnily enough, DT did "respond" to the arguments, very much in quotation marks, it is just that the response was terrible and his arguments were accepted because of the halo effect that comes with being wiki staff, but that is another topic.

Since the users, instead of responding to DT’s arguments, kept spamming the arguments from the infamous SpaceBattles thread over and over again, a content rule was made to avoid further discussions on the matter until new evidence appears.

That is all. If you do not like how this wiki works, create your own and brainwash the new generations with the path of "objective powerscaling," free from the malicious claws of the wankers from Reddit, TikTok, VSBW, and YouTube!

 

[Damage3245]

Pretty sure that's what I saw here, and that's what CRTs imply (and also paradoxically don't).

False dichotomy. The real options are either 'everyone makes their own profile because there is no truth' or 'get someone who actually knows how to analyze anything and argue to make all of the profiles, guided with knowledge of the source material.'
(and also constantly check people for nonsensical arguments (ban them if needed be for making horrible arguments))

You don't.

Well, if you don't like how VSBW is ran here then you're welcome to powerscale anywhere else.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Goku sola

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Well, if you don't like how VSBW is ran here then you're welcome to powerscale anywhere else.

If your only argument is 'we do things differently here' then this bodes poorly for how stable VSBW's positions are and their ability to defend them.

Funnily enough, DT did "respond" to the arguments, very much in quotation marks, it is just that the response was terrible and his arguments were accepted because of the halo effect that comes with being wiki staff, but that is another topic.

Since the users, instead of responding to DT’s arguments, kept spamming the arguments from the infamous SpaceBattles thread over and over again, a content rule was made to avoid further discussions on the matter until new evidence appears.

lol

That is all. If you do not like how this wiki works, create your own and brainwash the new generations with the path of "objective powerscaling," free from the malicious claws of the wankers from Reddit, TikTok, VSBW, and YouTube!

mentioning objective powerscaling in scare quotes

Yeah awesome, Caillou solos the wiki.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah awesome, Caillou solos the wiki.

That's arguable, yes

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

That's arguable, yes

CAILLOU SOLA

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

That is all. If you do not like how this wiki works, create your own and brainwash the new generations with the path of "objective powerscaling," free from the malicious claws of the wankers from Reddit, TikTok, VSBW, and YouTube!

How would you feel if theres another wiki scaling her to Tier 0

Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z)

Yog-Sothoth (尤格Yòugé・索托斯Suǒtuōsī?) is an Outer God of the franchise Houkai Gakuen 2 or Gun Girls Z. The Outer Gods, deities who reside beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

How would you feel if theres another wiki scaling her to Tier 0

Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z)

Yog-Sothoth (尤格Yòugé・索托斯Suǒtuōsī?) is an Outer God of the franchise Houkai Gakuen 2 or Gun Girls Z. The Outer Gods, deities who reside beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Nothing really. Just disappointment. ¯\(ヅ)/¯

 

[Qawsedf234]

Arguments are arguments. Restating an argument that has already been made adds nothing.

It does, because it means the OP making the claims fudmentally understands what the other person is arguing and can successfully defend the point. Just posting blogs to other sites and adding nothing else doesn't show that.

The same goes for fiction.

Barring a lower powered or grounded cases, fiction is heavily varied on user interpretation. Multiple sites don't rate Demon Slayer as high as well do, other sites rate Dragon Ball as Outerversal, etc. There's very rarely an objectively correct view in fictional power scaling.

None of this refutes my point: that truth is not dependent on consensus. You also haven't addressed the paradox: if consensus = truth, then going against the consensus = wrong, meaning any new CRT that goes against the consensus = automatically wrong.

The paradox exists because you're misunderstanding the system. Consensus does not mean truth, it means the viewpoint considered the most valid at the time. A CRT attempts to make another viewpoint the most valid. Going against the consciousness does not make someone wrong, but it means the viewpoint is considered less valid that the current one.

No, I was talking about when a mod decided to close down all Demon King Daimao downgrade threads without actually addressing the arguments.

Well that can be mod abuse I guess. Unless theh were threads attempting to reapply the same thing as a rejected thread.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

It does, because it means the OP making the claims fudmentally understands what the other person is arguing and can successfully defend the point. Just posting blogs to other sites and adding nothing else doesn't show that.

Incorrect, repeating arguments that have already been said does nothing. If you want to prove a person can defend the points of an argument they didn't make, you simply...make them demonstrate it. Ask them to defend the arguments.

Barring a lower powered or grounded cases, fiction is heavily varied on user interpretation. Multiple sites don't rate Demon Slayer as high as well do, other sites rate Dragon Ball as Outerversal, etc. There's very rarely an objectively correct view in fictional power scaling.

Of course there is. Off the top of my head:

• Anything that requires denying or making up shit is wrong
• Anything that is an inherent logical contradiction (Every tier above High 3-A, with the exception of High 1-A+ and 0) is wrong
• Any methodology that is internally inconsistent is wrong
• Any methodology that ignores falsification is wrong

These are some of the most objective parts in powerscaling. Claiming Goku is 50x infinity level should warrant you an immediate ban from all forums for mathematical illiteracy, alas the world is not ideal.

The paradox exists because you're misunderstanding the system. Consensus does not mean truth, it means the viewpoint considered the most valid at the time. A CRT attempts to make another viewpoint the most valid. Going against the consciousness does not make someone wrong, but it means the viewpoint is considered less valid that the current one.

Ah, so you agree that consensus and truth are orthogonal.

Well that can be mod abuse I guess. Unless theh were threads attempting to reapply the same thing as a rejected thread.

Yeah, I don't think the forums on VS wiki should exist.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anything that is an inherent logical contradiction (Every tier above High 3-A, with the exception of High 1-A+ and 0) is wrong

Technically, everything above 11-C is a logical contradiction, because you are claiming that entities of reason can be indexed through metrics applicable only to the sensible world, which breaks their identity.

If you want to be pretentious, at least maintain coherence with your own internal argument.