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Captain Ginyu Speed Upgrade

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

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Someone asked me to bring this up, and I was curious as well if we needed more supporting statements or not.

This is in regards to Captain Ginyu's body being fast enough to intercept the Body Change technique that Vegeta almost got hit by in Chapter 290 and Episode 74.

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Here, Gohan describes the move as light in both the Anime and the Manga. On its own, it might just be a generic description but both the Dragon Ball Forever and Daizenshuu 7 guides describe the technique as firing light as well.

Dragon Ball Forever Page 53

Yandex Translation: Body change - Replace the body with the enemy that is hit by the light coming from the body !!

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Daizenshuu 7

Kanzentai - Translations

Kanzentai ~ providing detailed and researched information, and media for true DragonBall fans everywhere.
web.archive.org web.archive.org

Crying "Change!!", he fires a dazzling light at his opponent from out of his entire body. After being covered by this light, his opponent is drawn into Ginyu's body through the mouth, and they exchange bodies.

It's not even an attack at all, just a non-damaging light, and it's called light in 4 different Dragon Ball Publications.

Considering that Goku was already FTL with his KKx4 back in the Saiyan Saga, it's not unreasonable that the Ginyu Force could be a degree of FTL as well.

"Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser."

What do you guys think?
 
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Well, we have these.

It is stated to be made of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source

Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser.
 
That's valid.

Very well then, a calc member should be able to calc dodging it
 
The calc I was given puts it at about 1.198c, but I'll be transferring it to a blog for review soon.
 
This seems fine, they don't even say laser, just outright light, plus the light doesn't even damage people so it can't be argued as a laser, is just literal light.

Alao wouldn't it be "likely higher" since ginyu goku was heavily damaged? Plus goku in his completely broken body did throw frog fast to intercept it after the beam was fired.
 
A previous Dragon Ball thread also tried upgrading some characters based on a light attack meeting a single requirement, it was rejected, I see no reason why this wouldn't be as well.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Purgy

They were also able to get statements from two Japanese Guide translations?
Click to expand...
For Frieza's death beams? Not sure

There was a thread on it as well but it seems to have been erased due to the move, the blog for it still exists though, both Kepekley23 and Antvasima agreed that simply being called light isn't enough, even with Dragon Ball already being close to light speed.
 
We also have what Thelastmlg said. It's not even an attack at all.

"This seems fine, they don't even say laser, just outright light, plus the light doesn't even damage people so it can't be argued as a laser, is just literal light."
 
Firestorm808 said:
We also have what Thelastmlg said. It's not even a ki attack or an attack at all.

"This seems fine, they don't even say laser, just outright light, plus the light doesn't even damage people so it can't be argued as a laser, is just literal light."
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how much that really changes though, the death beams weren't rejected because they were an attack, it was rejected because the evidence was weak, same as this, and as was also said in the comments of that blog, other verses have had light stuff rejected with more evidence than both this and the death beams, so it would be kinda double standard-ish to give Dragon Ball the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, if this ends up getting accepted, then fine, doesn't really matter to me, I just think it wouldn't be consistent with the light standards.
 
I was just expecting their resource to come from the original japanese or english language.
 
Captain Ginyu's "Change!" beam is so slow that there's time for a Namekian frog to ribbit as the beam is moving towards Goku and crew, which is how they notice the frog and throw it to intercept the beam.

It being stated to be a laser in the guidebooks definitely isn't good evidence.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Captain Ginyu's "Change!" beam is so slow that there's time for a Namekian frog to ribbit as the beam is moving towards Goku and crew, which is how they notice the frog and throw it to intercept the beam.

It being stated to be a laser in the guidebooks definitely isn't good evidence.
Click to expand...
Speed: Below average human level (his fastest attack is slower than a frog can croak)
 
You're either saying that frog is comparable in speed to the characters, or that the move is below average human because it's a frog unless you count the thing firestorm talked about.

It's not an anti-feat logically, it's the equivalent if saying "these characters who are light speed can talk, meaning they can't be light speed because light > sound".
 
Since when we consider only the mention of "light" as an actual light speed proof? i don't think it's enough to have multiple statement of "light" only when the only criteria is that it move straight and called light, so i disagree, we are much more stricter with many other similar stuff from other verse.
 
It's not just the mention of "light", it's the move being stated and described to be light by multiple official sources, and there not being any real big contradiction for this.

Either way, I honestly don't care either way if Ginyu gets FTL. I just don't want it being denied over shabby/fallacious reasoning.
 
As we said above, it's not an energy attack. It's just light washing over someone harmlessly.
 
Axxtentacle said:
It's not just the mention of "light", it's the move being stated and described to be light by multiple official sources, and there not being any real big contradiction for this.

Either way, I honestly don't care either way if Ginyu gets FTL. I just don't want it being denied over shabby/fallacious reasoning.
Click to expand...
It being stated to be light 2, 3 or even 5 times shouldn't be any more evidence than it being stated to be light once.
 
You're saying stated like it's just some random statement from a random character. It's consistent official statements from multiple official sources, and those are usually considered reliable anyway.
 
Axxtentacle said:
You're saying stated like it's just some random statement from a random character. It's consistent official statements from multiple official sources, and those are usually considered reliable anyway.
Click to expand...
It's a single piece of evidence, doesn't really matter what source it comes from or how many times it's stated, a single piece of evidence was rejected for Death Beams, why is this any different?

As I said earlier, there are other verses with much more evidence than just being called light and those still get rejected, either light standards need revising or this needs rejecting.
 
Purgy said:
It's a single piece of evidence, doesn't really matter what source it comes from or how many times it's stated, a single piece of evidence was rejected for Death Beams, why is this any different?

As I said earlier, there are other verses with much more evidence than just being called light and those still get rejected, either light standards need revising or this needs rejecting.
Click to expand...
Firestorm808 said:
Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser.
Click to expand...
Firestorm808 said:
It is stated to be made of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source
Click to expand...
Firestorm has effectively already addressed this.
 
Axxtentacle said:
Firestorm has effectively already addressed this.
Click to expand...
Except he really didn't because as I showed here, the exact same evidence and arguments were used for Death Beams, which were rejected

Called light by multiple sources and comes from Namek Arc, where most characters are already nearing light speed or exceed it, and yet that was rejected.

To quote something Antvasima and Kepekley agreed with
The only evidence here from the light speed page is being called light. Which is the weakest evidence on the page. The other things you mentioned such as moving straight isn't evidence of it being light speed according to the page.
Click to expand...
So I have no idea what makes this so different
 
Your only evidence for it being lightspeed is "It's stated to be light", which only falls under one of the five Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats qualifications. It never reflects or refracts off of water or mirrors, it isn't stated to be lightspeed, and it doesn't come from a realistic source of light.

In fact, seeing as how Ginyu can use it despite being in another body, it's safe to assume this isn't some kind of unique photokinetic trait his race has and is likely a Ki Manipulation ability of his, damaging its validity. On top of that, it was intercepted by a frog, so it definitely seems tangible.
 
Axxtentacle said:
It's not just the mention of "light", it's the move being stated and described to be light by multiple official sources, and there not being any real big contradiction for this.
Click to expand...
Being stated to be light in 10 sources is just 10 mentions of light without any context in either of them.
 
Matthew and Purgy are probably correct.
 
"Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser."

We have Namek Saga Goku at FTL (Faster than his Saiyan Saga Kaio-ken x4 form) and Namek Saga Vegeta at Relativistic+, FTL after his third Zenkai (Faster than before).

If multiple publications are calling it light, an injured Goku could keep track of it after it's been fired, and Vegeta couldn't react in time to it, the idea of it being real light is reasonable.
 
Ok,

Goku got hit with it.

Goku slower than light.

Thanks for the Goku antifeat.
 
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