All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Omegabronic]

Given the recent discussions, made a thread for it

"Skipping isn't Stopping" Hit Time skip revision

Time Skip factually doesn't stop time firstly, Vados says that it isn't time stop, but time skip(aka time travel), Goku in the fight against Hit says that he is predicting what movements he will do in the future to counter attack, which only makes sense if it isn't time stop, as if it was him...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Given the recent discussions, made a thread for it

"Skipping isn't Stopping" Hit Time skip revision

Time Skip factually doesn't stop time firstly, Vados says that it isn't time stop, but time skip(aka time travel), Goku in the fight against Hit says that he is predicting what movements he will do in the future to counter attack, which only makes sense if it isn't time stop, as if it was him...

vsbattles.com

.....

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well that was fast

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

yikes

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Dagoth jumpscare

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Dagoth jumpscare

Greetings

 

[Chariot190]

i really don't care lol. it's just a power scaling site to me, that's all.

And yet you're here.

right, now I want you to think hard for a moment. which of those things is currently accepted and we have evidence for right now? hint: it's not the first one, we have 0 evidence for it, and the second one only works if you proves that the universes are below low 2-C, which has never been accepted on this site.

And? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Just because the higher cosmology everything is embedded within has its own time, doesn't inherently mean this space, is a direct part of that higher time. You need direct, concrete, proof, it could very well just be its own thing like the RoSaT, **** if we know. Unfortunately, we have to know, conjecture won't cut it.

i'm not saying its solid evidence

Then don't use it.

heck I'm not even gonna recommend anyone do a CRT with it but to ignore everything that is currently accepted in favor of a conclusion that relies on something there is literally zero evidence for is just dishonesty

No, it's called proof. You're conflating things and drawing conclusions, based solely on assumptions, not actual evidence. That isn't being dishonest, it's saying stop guessing and hinging massive complex conclusions on "well, maybe?".

what Ki control? you didnt mention that before.

Why would I mention Ki control when talking about Goku being Imm being demonstrably wrong? It's you who decided to strawman and use AP=/=DC as some sort of argument, not me.

And how does it change the fact that Goku launching universal punches at someone with universal durability (which manages to hurt them) barely breaks a building at best?

Literally Ki control, it just works. Hell the very Uni feat is a display of Ki control and limiting DC, Goku's whole goal was doing that, it's why earth lived yet the further it went, the more destructive it got, by punch 3, Goku was able to negate the collateral almost completely.

and don't play the "don't strawman me" card here, you're the one who brought up the 30+ episodes BS not me lmao

Literal strawman, instead of actually tackling the point, you bring up a completely unrelated topic and twist what was said, a bad one at that given it's totally incomparable, and somehow you think that because Goku doesn't whip out a uni feat every ep, something that has an actual established reason for, and has since like, DB, somehow means the speed argument, something that doesn't have an excuse for, is ok? Nah.

And yes, because thinking of the "Top" as "one" antifeat, simply isn't the case, it's an antifeat every episode, sometimes multiple times in one episode, it isn't a one and done type thing.

 

[Omegabronic]

No? Hit has to move across the battlefield, pick his positioning, and then attacking pattern—Such as when he tried to attack Goku from behind.

oh yeah, what i meant is that the attack itself is only 1 punch, most of the time, and sometimes he doesn't move much, just saying that it isn't very extra complex up to that time

I know? I’m using 5 seconds as an example, because it’s much simpler to work in whole numbers than decimals.

OHHHHHHH i see, my bad then

Pure Progress, I believe he calls it. At least within the Anime, improving over time. He has a whole monologue about he has no forms and has to improve the old fashioned way. I’ll have to check the episode proper.

yeah i see, but it doesn't seem to be passive still, or if it is, not too fast, since Goku blocked and countered him a few times in a roll, maybe that is why he stalled for time with that fake out scream power up, to make his Time Skip better while Goku wasn't attacking him

Pretty sure we saw him activate Time Skip for a brief solitary moment to escape the KK Kamehameha. Now, whether or not he did in combat against Goku is up in the air, but given we know he can vary it, that is a calculation he has to consider.

to scape the KK Kamehameha, he......did something, we don't know what, we don't know for how long, and all we saw was him extending his arm and the air......cracked or something, it is really vague, and since as you said we don't know if he did against Goku, we can't say that Goku would be able to deal with it as well with his Analytical Prediction

Goku does predict the Stance Change and Hit attack. Obviously not “Mid Time Stop” but before the Time Stop, which is obviously what I’m referring to.

the link you linked shows a clip of Goku getting his stomach punched, i assume you meant to link to another timeframe?

I don’t recall if it’s said in the Anime, but it’s explicitly noted in the Manga.

the manga is pretty different from the anime, so i wouldn't use it for the anime

He did before the largest jump. Which is what I’m referring to.

oh he didn't, from the moment Hit improved his Time Skip Goku was unable to counter him anymore and got his beaten badly, only changed that when he went Blue KK10x

 

[RedReaper616]

passively? from what i remember in the fight, it got better only after Hit did a "powered up himself" like pose dunno what to call it really to make it get better, don't remember any statement of it getting better by the second or anything

Found it. It’s commented on that his Time Skip is lengthening, and he’s simply changing fighting styles/stances to better utilize that new Time Skip and level of power. He also was able to improve his Time Skip to catch SSBKK Goku, who-Y’know, had just moved Mid-Skip.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

And yet you're here.

yeah cuz I like powerscaling. lol what are you on about?

And? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Just because the higher cosmology everything is embedded within has its own time, doesn't inherently mean this space, is a direct part of that higher time.

what do you mean? everything in the cosmology is within the timeline. you're claiming that the neutral zone lies outside of the timeline when its just not true? You're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for that. You're the one making lofty claims here not me lmao

You need direct, concrete, proof, it could very well just be its own thing like the RoSaT, **** if we know. Unfortunately, we have to know, conjecture won't cut it.

sure, it could be, key word being "could". There's no evidence for it beyond it being called a separate dimension

Then don't use it.

I'm not lol i literally debunked my own argument using a better argument than whatever you're making right now

No, it's called proof. You're conflating things and drawing conclusions, based solely on assumptions, not actual evidence. That isn't being dishonest, it's saying stop guessing and hinging massive complex conclusions on "well, maybe?".

lol you're the one who drew conclusions through unsubstantiated assumptions just above not me. neutral zone being outside the timeline, it having its own temporal dimensions and all. all those are assumptions with not a modicum of proof to back them up.

Why would I mention Ki control when talking about Goku being Imm being demonstrably wrong? It's you who decided to strawman and use AP=/=DC as some sort of argument, not me.

you brought up the 30+ episodes making something an outlier not me.

irrelevant crap

 

[TheGreatBanana]

All this talking about time skip and what not got me wondering...Didn't goku predict Hit in base? Ya know the same dude that literally speed blitzed one spotted ssb vegeta. So...goku now casually predict people that are over 100 000 times faster than him? Or goku got fast enough that his base is above ssb vegeta? And I don't think hot was holding back on base goku. (Could be wrong). What do yall think about that?

 

[Killerdrone123]

All this talking about time skip and what not got me wondering...Didn't goku predict Hit in base? Ya know the same dude that literally speed blitzed one spotted ssb vegeta. So...goku now casually predict people that are over 100 000 times faster than him? Or goku got fast enough that his base is above ssb vegeta? And I don't think hot was holding back on base goku. (Could be wrong). What do yall think about that?

Well I was going for extraordinary genius for it but guess it was just greater analytical prediction

 

[Nierre]

Draws out "any and all" hidden strength + "stimulates the memory of the super-powered Great Ape that lies dormant inside Goku".
I only hope that'll be enough.

Spoiler

• Had they continued fighting, Tien Shinhan would have defeated Master Roshi. >29.6 Exatons (5-C)
  • (180) Surpasses the likes of Raditz Saga Yamcha (177), who, himself, surpassed Roshi by the time of the Piccolo Jr. Saga.
• Using the Four Witches Technique, Tien doubles his "attack power" (攻撃力, Kōgekiryoku). >59.2 Exatons
  • Goku can contend with and even defeat the Four Witches Technique.
• Old King Piccolo floored Goku and no-sold a Kamehameha without exerting even half strength. >118.4 Exatons
• By drinking the Ultra Divine Water, Goku's hidden power, including that of the Great Ape, is drawn out to its limits. >1.184 Zettatons (Low 5-B)
• After training under Kami and Mr. Popo, Goku's strength nearly doubled. >~2.368 Zettatons

That, or, Piccolo Jr. Saga Goku is 236.8 Exatons, which is Moon level+.

I've never heard of this, actually. I'll have to look into it.

possibly/likely is ur best bet tbh. I'd support it.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well that was fast

me? a SONIC FAN(tm)

 

[RedReaper616]

yeah i see, but it doesn't seem to be passive still, or if it is, not too fast, since Goku blocked and countered him a few times in a roll, maybe that is why he stalled for time with that fake out scream power up, to make his Time Skip better while Goku wasn't attacking him

It’s just Accelerated Dev/Reactive Evolution but named. (Meaning it should be inherently passive. It’s him improving “the old fashioned way,” but hyper quickly.) Also, it has to be relatively quick, because Vegeta literally comments on how he refuses to believe Hit has the Saiyan Trait but better due to speed and efficiency, and we see pretty clearly how good Saiyan evolution is. Not saying his is superior, but it must be comparable enough if it causes doubt in Vegeta.

to scape the KK Kamehameha, he......did something, we don't know what, we don't know for how long, and all we saw was him extending his arm and the air......cracked or something, it is really vague, and since as you said we don't know if he did against Goku, we can't say that Goku would be able to deal with it as well with his Analytical Prediction

He says he extended Time Skip even further. So presumably, he caught Goku in a .5+ Second Time Skip. That said, it does then imply the length of time was not varied. Given he can fully control when it turns on and off, though, it should still mean he can vary it. Especially with the Time Skip Feint.

the link you linked shows a clip of Goku getting his stomach punched, i assume you meant to link to another timeframe?

Yeah, I did, but that clash is after the First Stance Change, so my point is covered regardless.

the manga is pretty different from the anime, so i wouldn't use it for the anime

True.

oh he didn't, from the moment Hit improved his Time Skip Goku was unable to counter him anymore and got his beaten badly, only changed that when he went Blue KK10x

He was able to predict and handle the first Stance change, but not the second. Goku even comments on this…”Is he really gonna go up to .2 Seconds? I just need to hold out, keeping taking in his attacks, and then adapt to that.” (Implying he was doing that and succeeding prior.)

 

[Omegabronic]

Found it. It’s commented on that his Time Skip is lengthening, and he’s simply changing fighting styles/stances to better utilize that new Time Skip and level of power. He also was able to improve his Time Skip to catch SSBKK Goku, who-Y’know, had just moved Mid-Skip.

ok then, i guess him just stalling with the scream was the right call then, good to know

 

[Omegabronic]

All this talking about time skip and what not got me wondering...Didn't goku predict Hit in base? Ya know the same dude that literally speed blitzed one spotted ssb vegeta. So...goku now casually predict people that are over 100 000 times faster than him? Or goku got fast enough that his base is above ssb vegeta? And I don't think hot was holding back on base goku. (Could be wrong). What do yall think about that?

outlier, Goku would normally be seen as frozen by Hit due to the blitz worth above 8.000.000x above him value that Hit would scale to, predicting is kind of useless when your opponent perceives you as a slow slug

 

[BlastX]

Given he "concentrates power" (力を込め, chikara o kome), like a super move, and how its sister Multi-Form Technique functions,—splitting Tien's body and strength by fourths,—odds are the technique increases his Attack Potency. That, and he attacks with twice the number of arms simultaneously.

I tried to do the same for a Naruto character with literally the same technique, it doesn't work as a multiplier, trust me.

 

[Chariot190]

yeah cuz I like powerscaling. lol what are you on about?

And as such, you have to actually adhere by the rules and standards

what do you mean? everything in the cosmology is within that timeline. you're claiming that the neutral zone lies outside of the timelines when its just not true? You're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for that. You're the one making lofty claims here not me lmao

Damn, 5D normal uni time, 5D rosats, 5d everything...

The only thing that was accepted, is a higher time they're embedded within. Nothing more, nothing less. What the neutral zone even is, was never touched upon.

sure, it could be, key word being "could". There's no evidence for it beyond it being called a separate dimension

That's exactly my point, we don't know, at all, not even remotely, and assuming the funny big number route ain't how it works. You need to prove it, not guess it.

I'm not lol i literally debunked my own argument using a better argument than whatever you're making right now

Your argument is conjecture. My argument is "actually prove it".

lol you're the one who drew conclusions through unsubstantiated assumptions just above not me. neutral zone being outside the timeline, it having its own temporal dimensions and all. all those are assumptions with not a modicum of proof to back them up.

I didn't draw any conclusions. I'm aware you aren't reading the posts as per your own admission, but you could at least not make stuff up, I am telling you, it could be anything, it could have its own time, it could share one, it could be weird like the Rosat, it could be a flat blatant "theyre literally wrong" like the ToP, or hell maybe you're right. Fact of the matter is, we do not know, and your headcanon ain't gonna cut it. We need proof, not a "well i think".

you brought up the 30+ episodes making something an outlier not me.

Yes, because in the case of Imm speed, the 30+ episode ToP where every episode makes it blatantly obvious they ain't Imm, and 5D time ain't changing that, at all, is, in and of itself, a literal fuckton of antifeats and inexcusable contradictions. AP and DC, doesn't have this issue because DBZ establishes ki control as to why it isn't the case, ie, your example and strawman was bad.

And hey, you brought it up, it ain't irrelevant if your point hinges on it.

 

[Omegabronic]

It’s just Accelerated Dev/Reactive Evolution but named. (Meaning it should be inherently passive. It’s him improving “the old fashioned way,” but hyper quickly.) Also, it has to be relatively quick, because Vegeta literally comments on how he refuses to believe Hit has the Saiyan Trait but better due to speed and efficiency, and we see pretty clearly how good Saiyan evolution is. Not saying his is superior, but it must be comparable enough if it causes doubt in Vegeta.

meh, maybe? but then again, i don't think it would matter much, so i abstain from arguing further

He says he extended Time Skip even further.

that was after the KK Kamehameha, it was during their final confrontation

So presumably, he caught Goku in a .5+ Second Time Skip. That said, it does then imply the length of time was not varied. Given he can fully control when it turns on and off, though, it should still mean he can vary it. Especially with the Time Skip Feint.

i mean.....duh? not wanting to sound rude, it is just that it sounds logical, but point is.......i don't think we ever saw him doing that to Goku, usually he just uses the full length for greater efficiency, after he improved he just mocked Goku for thinking that a small increase wouldn't make a difference, then he went there and nearly beat him with it

Yeah, I did, but that clash is after the First Stance Change, so my point is covered regardless.

what is your point again? kind of lost for a sec

He was able to predict and handle the first Stance change, but not the second. Goku even comments on this…”Is he really gonna go up to .2 Seconds? I just need to hold out, keeping taking in his attacks, and then adapt to that.” (Implying he was doing that and succeeding prior.)

yeah, for 1 attack only, still nothing extreme or anything since it was still only 0.1 seconds amount of movement he had to predict, but still decent i would say

 

[TheGreatBanana]

outlier, Goku would normally be seen as frozen by Hit due to the blitz worth above 8.000.000x above him value that Hit would scale to, predicting is kind of useless when your opponent perceives you as a slow slug

Yeah probably outlier, because if treat as as a non outlier, everyone that can fight goku on equal footing [or even surpassed him slightly in terms of speed] either is over hundreds of thousands of times faster than goku, or has an insane level of analytical prediction.
Tho we can argue either hit just held back on goku, or goku got a zenkai from analyzing hit.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

And as such, you have to actually adhere by the rules and standards

and one of those "rules" is to establish "credibility" in the eyes of other users? Lol yeah right

Damn, 5D normal uni time, 5D rosats, 5d everything...

and you said I strawmanned. the disingenuousness on your part is honestly frightening

The only thing that was accepted, is a higher time they're embedded within. Nothing more, nothing less. What the neutral zone even is, was never touched upon.

doesn't change the fact that the higher temporal dimension is the only way (that is currently accepted) for time to flow in a place like that

That's exactly my point, we don't know, at all, not even remotely, and assuming the funny big number route ain't how it works. You need to prove it, not guess it.

you're the one making guesses here lmao. My "guess" is based off of a literal simple logical inference of what is already accepted on the site. you saying that it has its own temporal dimension, or lies outside the timeline is a wild guess that's not based on anything accepted or not.

Your argument is conjecture. My argument is "actually prove it".

right, remind me who was it that said that the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension or lies outside the timeline? I'm ngl your takes are goofy asf sometimes

I didn't draw any conclusions. I'm aware you aren't reading the posts as per your own admission, but you could at least not make stuff up, I am telling you, it could be anything, it could have its own time, it could share one, it could be weird like the Rosat,

if there was evidence for any of that or if any of that was accepted then sure.

it could be a flat blatant "theyre literally wrong" like the ToP, or hell maybe you're right. Fact of the matter is, we do not know, and your headcanon ain't gonna cut it. We need proof, not a "well i think".

Same as above. my conclusion is just making a simple inference via what's already accepted. and the funny thing is my inference would actually be completely true even IF there was no 5D time in the verse but instead the entire timeline was just low 2-C because it literally is the ONLY correct way to interpret this lmao. your conclusions would still not be true because 1.) there'd still be no evidence of it having its own temporal dimension and 2.) it can't "share" a temporal dimension from any adjacent universes because if it did then the universes themselves would no longer be low 2-C but 3-A structures, the timeline would be the low 2-C structure which is where the neutral zone gets its temporal dimension from which is literally the same as my argument the only difference being a low 1-C timeline as opposed to low 2-C

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah probably outlier, because if treat as as a non outlier, everyone that can fight goku on equal footing [or even surpassed him slightly in terms of speed] either is over hundreds of thousands of times faster than goku, or has an insane level of analytical prediction.
Tho we can argue either hit just held back on goku, or goku got a zenkai from analyzing hit.

i mean "no kill rule" would make him obligated to hold back i feel

 

[TheGreatBanana]

i mean "no kill rule" would make him obligated to hold back i feel

I mean...not really no. You can still go all out and not hold back. And even if he did, he won't make himself magically thousands of times slower. [And Hit is a guy who goes for the fastest way to end a fight].

 

[TheGreatBanana]

It's a funny thought that goku can overcome hundreds of thousands times speed difference via skill alone.
Or we can use it as a feat of zenkai

 

[Nierre]

I tried to do the same for a Naruto character with literally the same technique, it doesn't work as a multiplier, trust me.

which character?

 

[Chariot190]

and one of those "rules" is to establish "credibility" in the eyes of other users? Lol yeah right

I mean, no that's common sense, like take agrees or disagrees, nobody is gonna take you seriously if "yeah lol didnt read".

and you said I strawmanned. the disingenuousness on your part is honestly frightening

Yes, because you did. And yes, because if 5D this, why not 5D those? Like the Rosat, what's the difference? We know the Rosat ain't a part of the universe, but time passes, so what time is it?
We do not know, if we do not know, stop trying to conclude based on headcanon.

doesn't change the fact that the higher temporal dimension is the only way (that is currently accepted) for time to flow in a place like that

Just like the Rosat yes? Why is it the only way? You're drawing your conclusion first before actually looking at the proof.

you're the one making guesses here lmao. My "guess" is based off of a literal simple logical inference of what is already accepted on the site. you saying that it has its own temporal dimension, or lies outside the timeline is a wild guess that's not based on anything accepted or not.

Hmm? I'm saying prove it, it's open to interpretation, multiple in fact, your high-end one, isn't any more likely, or unlikely, than any other, whether or not you agree.
Your simple logical inference applies to any other interpretation as well.

What is accepted, is that cosmology has a 5D time, and the universe is embedded within them, nothing more, nothing less.

right, remind me who was it that said that the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension or lies outside the timeline? I'm ngl your takes are goofy asf sometimes

You did actually, I simply said "Could be". Keep track of the conversation please.

if there was evidence for any of that or if any of that was accepted then sure.

The multiple worlds and dimensions and gaps that exist outside of a standard universe yet have their own unique time-space sets precedence if you really want to go that route.

Same as above. my conclusion is just making a simple inference via what's already accepted. and the funny thing is my inference would actually be completely true even IF there was no 5D time in the verse but instead the entire timeline was just low 2-C because it literally is the ONLY correct way to interpret this lmao. your conclusions would still not be true because

Your conclusion is conjecture, but how about this? Post a statement confirming it, 5D time.

1.) there'd still be no evidence of it having its own temporal dimension

The fact time flows at all. The default assumption isn't "oh it very clearly has time but isn't part of the universe, it must be 5D time", it's "damn it has time just like the countless other shit". You're extrapolating, we don't do that. We do not know what it's apart of.

and 2.) it can't "share" a temporal dimension from any adjacent universes because if it did then the universes themselves would no longer be low 2-C but 3-A structures, the timeline would be the low 2-C structure which is where the neutral zone gets its temporal dimension from which is literally the same as my argument the only difference being a low 1-C timeline as opposed to low 2-C

You're making a self fulfilling argument lad. It doesn't need to be any of that shit, and presuming your take, which, mind you, isn't even implied or stated, must be the only logical conclusion, is asinine.
also ya shouldnt give people ideas, ya know damn well people think that's the case and will jump at that

 

[Ryzen7900X]

honestly this is beyond tiring, I'm not gonna bother reading any of that and attempt to explain again only for you to replace my entire argument with your strawman. take that however you want

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Hear me out, but what if, the ToP time was Immeasurable, like what happens if an Immeasurable speed lad starts counting ya know

 

[BlastX]

which character?

Sakon, who else?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Hear me out, but what if, the ToP time was Immeasurable, like what happens if an Immeasurable speed lad starts counting ya know

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Hear me out, but what if, the ToP time was Immeasurable, like what happens if an Immeasurable speed lad starts counting ya know

that was essentially my argument but the nature of the neutral zone debunks that.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I really like seeing the fear in people's eyes because of the immeasurable speed of Dragon Ball or something like that

 

[Huesito88]

I really like seeing the fear in people's eyes because of the immeasurable speed of Dragon Ball or something like that

Well just make the Universe Infinite and then well ummm

 

[Veronica]

immeasurable speed in DB is nonsense. When everyone clearly needs time for a finite distance such as Whis.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

immeasurable speed in DB is nonsense. When everyone clearly needs time for a finite distance such as Whis.

Whis explicitly isn't allowed to use his full power which means he cant fly at his full speeds either. another non-argument

 

[Veronica]

Whis explicitly isn't allowed to use his full power which means he cant fly at his full speeds either. another non-argument

So SSB Goku>holding back Whis? Also he always uses a technique to fly across the universe with the staff. So it's heavily implied without it he is far slower.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

So SSB Goku>holding back Whis?

i didn't say that

Also he uses a technique to fly across the universe with the staff.

changes nothing. he can't use more than a certain amount of power

 

[StekFence]

i didn't say that

That is the implication tho. Goku having a faster than finite speed >>> finite speed holding back whis

 

[Nierre]

Sakon, who else?

forgot he existed