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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

@Huesito88 I do wonder what them "Toriyama doesnt know sh*t about martial arts" weirdos want ... thanks for the laugh, haha.

When Goku throws a jab, do they want a comment from narrator "he uses a jab to size up the distance" or Goku explaing us the importance of head position and frames in the clinch? Or maybe they want a deep explanation from Toriyama on why strenght is important power wise while fighting off the back foot?

If you guys think 5D gravity is funny, "Goku martial arts" takes are some next level shit.

Most of them wannabe "martial arts nerds" dont see how KI-control counters 99% of grappling and the importance of leverage gets countered by silly things like flying. There was a comment on youtube how Goku would lose to a "high school wrestler" since he isnt a master grappler. The funny thing about this is, you dont have to be one; knowing the basics of takedown defence coupled with good footwork and knowing how to make the right use of different angles sets the deal. We have seen guys getting the gold belt or nullifying the attempt of GREAT grapplers ... any fictional character beats real world guy 10/10 under every rule set. They are so much more talented.

I dont want to write a rant so lets keep it short: There are many reasons why I like Toriyamas representation of martial arts.

Some of them are:

# It already starts with Roshi making it clear that theres a limit to martial arts, the importance of proper strenght training or how deadly martial arts can be under the wrong leadership. Roshis age and widsom really showed there when he meet Goku/Krillin.

# Sepertation of lifting/striking power or travel/combat speed. Combat athletes aint good lifters at all and the worst sprinters. In close quarters fight or better said short burts like explosive foot speed or throwing 3 hooks in the span of 1 leg kick, in this siutation they begin to shine.

# The importance of basics and teaching Goku the basics ad nauseam till he retires. Practice the techniques, but leave the style and approach to him. Thats something a great coach would and should do.

This isnt a debunk at all, just some thoughts why I like Toriyasmas view of fighters and im not sure if it was really authors intent, but theres so much truth if you pay attention.

XXBenShapiroXx said:
Martial arts are entirely centered around the capabilities of the human body. When those capabilities change, so does a lot of the fundamentals of martial arts and their styles.
Click to expand...

I mean we already see - IN THE REAL WORLD - how much things like small joint manipulation can change an entire situation. Theres a reason why many things are banned across every single combat sport. I appreciate the delicious science of Thais sweeps and throws but if you clinch me, im gonna eye poke you. Thats one of the many counters but gets you banned and doing that with gloves is hard as sh*t.

My point was DB doesnt have bad cheography. They displayed great offense skills but its so fast that most wont notice. Been saying it for years to watch it in slow motion or watch guys who do break downs if you cant see it. The most underrated part is the display of a masterful defense.

Dragonballs visuals are friggin gooooooood. Them explosive movements is what makes them look like fodder.

Are they perfect? No. If you want things displayed perfectly, theres only grappling and you can count the high level ones on 3 fingers.
 
Last edited:
Jinsama said:
@Huesito88 I do wonder what them "Toriyama doesnt know sh*t about martial arts" weirdos want ... thanks for the laugh, haha.

When Goku throws a jab, do they want a comment from narrator "he uses a jab to size up the distance" or Goku explaing us the importance of head position and frames in the clinch? Or maybe they want a deep explanation from Toriyama on why strenght is important power wise while fighting off the back foot?

If you guys think 5D gravity is funny, "Goku martial arts" takes are some next level shit.

Most of them wannabe "martial arts nerds" dont see how KI-control counters 99% of grappling and the importance of leverage gets countered by silly things like flying. There was a comment on youtube how Goku would lose to a "high school wrestler" since he isnt a master grappler. The funny thing about this is, you dont have to be one; knowing the basics of takedown defence coupled with good footwork and knowing how to make the right use of different angles sets the deal. We have seen guys getting the gold belt or nullifying the attempt of GREAT grapplers ... any fictional character beats real world guy 10/10 under every rule set. They are so much more talented.

I dont want to write a rant so lets keep it short: There are many reasons why I like Toriyamas representation of martial arts.

Some of them are:

# It already starts with Roshi making it clear that theres a limit to martial arts, the importance of proper strenght training or how deadly martial arts can be under the wrong leadership. Roshis age and widsom really showed there when he meet Goku/Krillin.

# Sepertation of lifting/striking power or travel/combat speed. Combat athletes aint good lifters at all and the worst sprinters. In close quarters fight or better said short burts like explosive foot speed or throwing 3 hooks in the span of 1 leg kick, in this siutation they begin to shine.

# The importance of basics and teaching Goku the basics ad nauseam till he retires. Practice the techniques, but leave the style and approach to him. Thats something a great coach would and should do.

This isnt a debunk at all, just some thoughts why I like Toriyasmas view of fighters and im not sure if it was really authors intent, but theres so much truth if you pay attention.



I mean we already see - IN THE REAL WORLD - how much things like small joint manipulation can change an entire situation. Theres a reason why many things are banned across every single combat sport. I appreciate the delicious science of Thais sweeps and throws but if you clinch me, im gonna eye poke you. Thats one of the many counters but gets you banned and doing that with gloves is hard as sh*t.

My point was DB doesnt have bad cheography. They displayed great offense skills but its so fast that most wont notice. Been saying it for years to watch it in slow motion or watch guys who do break downs if you cant see it. The most underrated part is the display of a masterful defense.

Dragonballs visuals are friggin gooooooood. Them explosive movements is what makes them look like fodder.

Are they perfect? No. If you want things displayed perfectly, theres only grappling and you can count the high level ones on 3 fingers.
Click to expand...
I also appreciate the 'he's knows 4000 styles' thing is seen as early series scrub game shit. Because ngl, 3995 of those styles are ******* worthless irl and don't have anything that isn't covered by those five actually good styles.
 
Making sure I'm understanding right. If the Neutral Space (or the surrounding space around the DBS macrocosms) is insignificant 5D, then that makes the Hypertimeline Significant 5D and Insignificant 6D right? (Ignoring the afterlife and other complicated stuff here.)
 
the 5D gravity isn't funny tho, i have a scan that the otherworld has its own laws, so that's why something like King Kai's small planet with 10x gravity exist in such a realm.. Here
Jinsama said:
@Huesito88 I do wonder what them "Toriyama doesnt know sh*t about martial arts" weirdos want ... thanks for the laugh, haha.

When Goku throws a jab, do they want a comment from narrator "he uses a jab to size up the distance" or Goku explaing us the importance of head position and frames in the clinch? Or maybe they want a deep explanation from Toriyama on why strenght is important power wise while fighting off the back foot?

If you guys think 5D gravity is funny, "Goku martial arts" takes are some next level shit.

Most of them wannabe "martial arts nerds" dont see how KI-control counters 99% of grappling and the importance of leverage gets countered by silly things like flying. There was a comment on youtube how Goku would lose to a "high school wrestler" since he isnt a master grappler. The funny thing about this is, you dont have to be one; knowing the basics of takedown defence coupled with good footwork and knowing how to make the right use of different angles sets the deal. We have seen guys getting the gold belt or nullifying the attempt of GREAT grapplers ... any fictional character beats real world guy 10/10 under every rule set. They are so much more talented.

I dont want to write a rant so lets keep it short: There are many reasons why I like Toriyamas representation of martial arts.

Some of them are:

# It already starts with Roshi making it clear that theres a limit to martial arts, the importance of proper strenght training or how deadly martial arts can be under the wrong leadership. Roshis age and widsom really showed there when he meet Goku/Krillin.

# Sepertation of lifting/striking power or travel/combat speed. Combat athletes aint good lifters at all and the worst sprinters. In close quarters fight or better said short burts like explosive foot speed or throwing 3 hooks in the span of 1 leg kick, in this siutation they begin to shine.

# The importance of basics and teaching Goku the basics ad nauseam till he retires. Practice the techniques, but leave the style and approach to him. Thats something a great coach would and should do.

This isnt a debunk at all, just some thoughts why I like Toriyasmas view of fighters and im not sure if it was really authors intent, but theres so much truth if you pay attention.



I mean we already see - IN THE REAL WORLD - how much things like small joint manipulation can change an entire situation. Theres a reason why many things are banned across every single combat sport. I appreciate the delicious science of Thais sweeps and throws but if you clinch me, im gonna eye poke you. Thats one of the many counters but gets you banned and doing that with gloves is hard as sh*t.

My point was DB doesnt have bad cheography. They displayed great offense skills but its so fast that most wont notice. Been saying it for years to watch it in slow motion or watch guys who do break downs if you cant see it. The most underrated part is the display of a masterful defense.

Dragonballs visuals are friggin gooooooood. Them explosive movements is what makes them look like fodder.

Are they perfect? No. If you want things displayed perfectly, theres only grappling and you can count the high level ones on 3 fingers.
Click to expand...
 
Grgrgrgrgergerg said:
Making sure I'm understanding right. If the Neutral Space (or the surrounding space around the DBS macrocosms) is insignificant 5D, then that makes the Hypertimeline Significant 5D and Insignificant 6D right? (Ignoring the afterlife and other complicated stuff here.)
Click to expand...
If the hypertimeline is insignificant 6D, then the crack of time has a possibility of being 6D is High then.
 
Grgrgrgrgergerg said:
Making sure I'm understanding right. If the Neutral Space (or the surrounding space around the DBS macrocosms) is insignificant 5D, then that makes the Hypertimeline Significant 5D and Insignificant 6D right? (Ignoring the afterlife and other complicated stuff here.)
Click to expand...
Hypertimeline isn't insignificant 6D
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
No
Click to expand...
I'm not getting why though. If we say the Neutral Space is 3 Spatial Dimensions + 1 Temporal Dimension + 1 Insignificant Spatial Dimension, why does the "+ 1 Insignificant Spatial Dimension" disappear when we add another Temporal Dimension?
Dust_Collector said:
I think we should stop discussing cringe dimensional tiering and talk about real shit, like how Dabura should actually scale to SPC and not regular Perfect Cell.
Click to expand...
lol
 
Dust_Collector said:
I think we should stop discussing cringe dimensional tiering and talk about real shit, like how Dabura should actually scale to SPC and not regular Perfect Cell.
Click to expand...
That could honestly be the case, although that’d also mean:
  • SSJ2 Gohan is way stronger than SPC, even though Gohan be greatly damaged by a ki blast from him. The only way that could make sense if he’s far stronger, is if we say he started out suppressed to continue taunting him and simply underestimated Cell’s new power.
  • The SSJ Gohan against Dabura is stronger than the calm SSJ Gohan against Cell (Gohan can fight Dabura comparably while calm Cell Games Gohan was greatly damaged by a supressed Cell) or that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura which I don’t think is true tbh. This might be the case since his strength did stagnate, and then trained hard for the 25th budokai for iicr 6 days.
It’s weird lol
 
So basically it’d be like:
Calm SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) = SSJ Gohan (Saiyamen Chapters) < Cell (Pre-Zenkai) < SSJ Gohan (Post-6 day training) ~ Dabura = Super Perfect Cell < SSJ2 Gohan (Post-6 day training) < SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)
 
Didn't Gohan say the damage on his arm cut his energy in half? If we took that and Super Saiyan 2's guidebook multiplier of 2x Super Saiyan bluntly, wouldn't that put Peak Cell Games Super Saiyan Gohan on SPC's level or above?
 
Grgrgrgrgergerg said:
Didn't Gohan say the damage on his arm cut his energy in half? If we took that and Super Saiyan 2's guidebook multiplier of 2x Super Saiyan bluntly, wouldn't that put Peak Cell Games Super Saiyan Gohan on SPC's level or above?
Click to expand...
him getting hurt enough to be reduced to half ki by a casual Ki blast of a SPC who was "fooling arround" is.........circular, to say the least
 
Omegabronic said:
him getting hurt enough to be reduced to half ki by a casual Ki blast of a SPC who was "fooling arround" is.........circular, to say the least
Click to expand...

Gohan just kind of leapt to save Vegeta and wasn't ready for it. Defense was low. His peak power I'm talking about took a lot of motivation from Goku to fully unleash too.
 
wGsHLAJ.png

lol
 
Grgrgrgrgergerg said:
Didn't Gohan say the damage on his arm cut his energy in half? If we took that and Super Saiyan 2's guidebook multiplier of 2x Super Saiyan bluntly, wouldn't that put Peak Cell Games Super Saiyan Gohan on SPC's level or above?
Click to expand...
Why would half his ki refer to his power rather than just how much energy he has left?
 
Ah, yes, Gohan discussions. My favourite.
Ednaxel2 said:
  • SSJ2 Gohan is way stronger than SPC, even though Gohan be greatly damaged by a ki blast from him. The only way that could make sense if he’s far stronger, is if we say he [1.1] started out suppressed to continue taunting him and [1.2] simply underestimated Cell’s new power.
Click to expand...
[1.1] Gohan's power and his emotions are directly linked, and after Goku's death, Gohan succumbed to guilt, fear, and, ultimately, despair. By all accounts, up until Goku encouraged him and Vegeta provided an opportunity for him to destroy Cell, Gohan was subconsciously suppressed, which Goku confirms.

[1.2] Yes, Gohan underestimated the size of Cell's power-up.
Omegabronic said:
him getting hurt enough to be reduced to half ki by a casual Ki blast of a SPC who was "fooling arround" is.........circular, to say the least
Click to expand...
Refer to [1.1].
Ednaxel2 said:
  • The SSJ Gohan against Dabura [2.1] is stronger than the calm SSJ Gohan against Cell ([2.2] Gohan can fight Dabura comparably while calm Cell Games Gohan was greatly damaged by a supressed Cell) or that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura [2.3] which I don’t think is true tbh.
Click to expand...
[2.1] The Super Saiyan Gohan that fought Dabura is explicitly stated to be weaker than the Super Saiyan Gohan that fought Cell. In fact, World Tournament Saga/Babidi Saga Gohan in general is described as weaker than his younger Cell Games Saga counterpart.

[2.2] Gohan visibly strains fighting back against Dabura, but Dabura was merely gauging Gohan's strength and is confident he can easily defeat Gohan.

[2.3] Good.
Ednaxel2 said:
Calm SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) = SSJ Gohan (Saiyamen Chapters) < Cell (Pre-Zenkai) < SSJ Gohan (Post-6 day training) ~ Dabura = Super Perfect Cell < SSJ2 Gohan (Post-6 day training) < SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)
Click to expand...
SSJ Gohan (vs. Dabura) < SSJ Gohan (vs. Cell) <<< Perfect Cell < Full Power SSJ Gohan < Super Perfect Cell = Dabura < SSJ2 Gohan (Tournament) < SSJ2 Gohan
Omegabronic said:
Why would half his ki refer to his power rather than just how much energy he has left?
Click to expand...
Gohan asserts that his Ki is less than half in response to Goku's urging to unleash a full-power Kamehameha, and Piccolo later confirms that Gohan's Ki is weaker.
 
It's sorta different in the anime continuity cause SPC isn't treated as all that strong there (Pikkon easily beat him) and Dabura had to amp himself to go against Gohan, and even he was completely caught off-guard by SSJ Buu Saga Gohan's full power.
And actually looking into it,
All in all, this proves that the Dabura that Gohan fought can be reasoned to be far more powerful than Cell and that Dabura's preconceived notions about the Saiyans were outright false, since ya know, the power of a weakened SSJ Gohan (Who's already considerably weaker than Goku) shook him to his core and took him completely off-guard.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I think all of this is forgetting how it’s more than just emotions affecting Gohan’s power (potential), but how emotions and focus affect the literal power of Ki itself outside of that.

To quote myself and Toriyama:

“Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word ‘energy’ [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different ‘Ki’ are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, kitraining and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can ‘receive energy and courage [yūki]’ from them. ‘Ki’ is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.”
Click to expand...

Something you can see in Roshi V Tien, where Roshi shaking Tien’s confidence literally made him weaker. He went from a kick so hard Roshi was nearly knocked out to not even phasing Roshi.

So Gohan’s doubt and will are double debuffs and buffs respectively in context to his lowered power and his amplified power.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Ah, yes, Gohan discussions. My favourite.

[1.1] Gohan's power and his emotions are directly linked, and after Goku's death, Gohan succumbed to guilt, fear, and, ultimately, despair. By all accounts, up until Goku encouraged him and Vegeta provided an opportunity for him to destroy Cell, Gohan was subconsciously suppressed, which Goku confirms.

[1.2] Yes, Gohan underestimated the size of Cell's power-up.

Refer to [1.1].

[2.1] The Super Saiyan Gohan that fought Dabura is explicitly stated to be weaker than the Super Saiyan Gohan that fought Cell. In fact, World Tournament Saga/Babidi Saga Gohan in general is described as weaker than his younger Cell Games Saga counterpart.

[2.2] Gohan visibly strains fighting back against Dabura, but Dabura was merely gauging Gohan's strength and is confident he can easily defeat Gohan.

[2.3] Good.

SSJ Gohan (vs. Dabura) < SSJ Gohan (vs. Cell) <<< Perfect Cell < Full Power SSJ Gohan < Super Perfect Cell = Dabura < SSJ2 Gohan (Tournament) < SSJ2 Gohan

Gohan asserts that his Ki is less than half in response to Goku's urging to unleash a full-power Kamehameha, and Piccolo later confirms that Gohan's Ki is weaker.
Click to expand...
Referencing Part 2.1, wouldn’t Vegeta be comparing SSJ2 Gohan to the Gohan fighting Dabura, since he emphasizes that he was stronger when he beat Cell. Vegeta more-so saying SSJ2 Gohan (That Beat Cell) > SSJ (or SSJ2) Gohan (Vs Dabura).
 
I kinda think Buu could've countered Arale when she showed up in DBS, solely because he'd be equally goofy.
 
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